Hinneman article

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Chisamba
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Hinneman article

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:31 pm

https://dressagetoday.com/theory/submis ... n=Facebook

have any of you read it/ if i ever was a fan it is now my opinion that i am no longer one.

In particular, i know a lot of submissive horses, schoolies, kind horses that are not supple, one is an attitude and the other is physical ability. mutually exclusive.

a horse steps on his toe and its down the road?

only horses with fat tails?

hmmmmmm

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:43 pm

Actually, the article is in the May 2018 Dressage Today. I posted on here a while back that I intended to start a thread about it. I haven't read all of your link, so don't know if that is exactly what is in the May article.

There were various points I wanted to address in that article, and I think a thread for each would probably be warranted.

The thick tail thing really caught my eye. Hey, who doesn't like a thick tail, but how it affects performance I never thought about.

As far as Hinneman's dad and the way he tossed out horses...well...that seems to be the thinking with a lot of top trainers that have horses for different reasons than many of us.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:58 pm

musical comedy wrote:Actually, the article is in the May 2018 Dressage Today. I posted on here a while back that I intended to start a thread about it. I haven't read all of your link, so don't know if that is exactly what is in the May article.

There were various points I wanted to address in that article, and I think a thread for each would probably be warranted.

The thick tail thing really caught my eye. Hey, who doesn't like a thick tail, but how it affects performance I never thought about.

As far as Hinneman's dad and the way he tossed out horses...well...that seems to be the thinking with a lot of top trainers that have horses for different reasons than many of us.


Sorry, I'm behind the times. I guess the parts I flung out were the emotional response. But i particularly disagree with equating submission with suppleness, if you want to discuss that point here.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Chisamba wrote: But i particularly disagree with equating submission with suppleness, if you want to discuss that point here.
Ok, let's do that. I need to go back and re-read that article so I'm prepared to discuss. I've got some barn chores to do now. Be back later.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:14 pm

He was talking about assessing young stock. Basically he is saying that you look for a kind, inquisitive eye, a horse that is aware of his space and has good bone in the spine by looking at the bone in the tail. There is nothing nefarious about what he said.
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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Tuddy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:17 pm

:o

I have a hard time expressing an opinion, because I am still so new to the dressage world, but I do know that words like "submissive" are not part of a kind and thoughtful training scale. Too S&M for me, I suppose.

And ditching a horse because it stepped on your foot and classifying it as having "no culture" kind of confused me.

I'm too sensitive, I guess.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:19 pm

"Mental suppleness" equals trainablity. Give me a horse with a good mind and average movement any day over a horse with brilliant movement but no brain to work with.
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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Dresseur » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:28 pm

I also didn't read anything too nefarious into the article. I do think he's a typical german and says things bluntly and very matter-of-fact. I think that the way he defines submission
as one who “does everything you ask from behind to front, front to behind, left to right and right to left.”
is something that I agree with. I want a horse that wants to work with me. Please note, I am not saying that I want an automaton - I appreciate the vim and vigor and sassiness - it gives extra sparkle and fun to everything- but my horse still needs to do as I ask, smoothly when I ask, and not 7 strides later after an argument.

For this point:
A supple horse is not necessarily a submissive horse
I can see that, but I don't agree that a submissive horse is always supple - but that depends on the definition. I've seen plenty of "submissive" horses that were as stiff as the day is long. But, if we use his definition, my guess is that yes - with that criteria, the horses are probably supple and through.

In terms of the stepping on your foot - I'm going on a limb and guessing that he is talking about horses with absolutely no respect for the space of the handler and not just an honest mistake or 2. Some horses have to be told a million times that it's not ok to walk on your handler - and some seem to pick up on the lesson very quickly. I'd rather the not so pushy one as well, just mho.

In terms of tail - I think that's interesting - does a thicker tail (muscle not hair) really relate to a stronger back? I don't know. But it's an interesting thought.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby khall » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:31 am

LOL! Rip would have been out the door and down the street to the knackers! He was not necessarily one to step on your toes, but he would nip at you (still occasionally will) just to be a butt head. I hated working him in hand as a young horse, felt like I had jaws on the line. Very uncouth!

I too like the more accommodating ones, but I sure have learned a bunch about being a good horseman from Rip. Now my filly's dam Anna was such a lovely horse to work with, so soft and kind but with the sensitivity that I love. Jo is pretty good, not quite as soft as her mother. Of course her Lusitano lines are bull fighters.

I agree that the article was not so surprising in any way, except never heard anything about thicker tail. Will have to ask my vet that one.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby HafDressage » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:20 am

I thought the article was very good/interesting. I find the tail thing super interesting. Was there implication about the thickness of the dock or just the amount of hair? or are those two things interrelated and I've just never put that together before?

In terms of submission, I think people confuse the popular usage of the term, which is a bit negative, with the meaning of the term in the dressage world. As per every test from TL to 4th - submission = Willing cooperation, harmony, attention and confidence, acceptance of bit and
aids, straightness, lightness of forehand and ease of movements"

So, in my mind submission is a top priority and is roundness and acceptance of the bit at the very basic levels, but grows into collection and acceptance of the aids, including the bending aids as training advances. So if I see a lower level horse submission is more about roundness/throughness, which may or may not include great bendability (i.e., lateral suppleness), versus and upper level horse where I think the meaning is greater.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Imperini » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:15 pm

HafDressage wrote:I thought the article was very good/interesting. I find the tail thing super interesting. Was there implication about the thickness of the dock or just the amount of hair? or are those two things interrelated and I've just never put that together before?


I thought it was regarding the thickness of the dock because it was with regards to the spine being thick so the hair wouldn't matter at all but it does mention hair also. My horse is part appaloosa and she has a thick/wide dock and spine width but a somewhat sad tail (it's not bald but it will never be anything to ooh and ahh over) so I don't think the hair and dock thickness are very much related.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:36 pm

I am going to quote exactly what he wrote about the tail.

Hinnemann wrote: I never bought a horse without touching the tail to find out about its thickness. I like a big, thick tail. The theory behind that is, that most of the time if there's not much hair or bone going into the back, you cannot expect much in the middle of the spine, so there's not much room for muscles. I want to see a strong enough bridge to carry me."

Anatomy experts and dissectors here might have some input on this.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:08 pm

I have several thoughts, first, much of a horses "culture" is learned in its interaction with humans. I have a friend who is very dear, but every horse she has bought, and its been a few now, as i have known her for years, had good manners when she acquired the horse, but did not keep them for very long. The point being I like a person to take ownership in their horses behavior especially on the ground.

Now it is very true that you may treat two horses very similarly, ( like my own Kimba and Deneb) and the one may respond willingly and the other remain reactive. But in particular, at my barn at least, if a horse steps on your toe i consider it the handlers fault. They did not teach the horse to halt, to respect their space, et al.

of course i suppose having disposable horses makes it easier to have a discard pile. If you start out with twenty and are only keeping three, then i guess you can be choosy about tails.

I was raised in a culture where we tried to find the particular talent of each horse, and developed that, not the culture where you throw away the horse that stands on your toe. I guess i feel the same about humans, my own father had characteristics that made his life, and ours, complicated, but he also had characteristics that gave me a full and interesting life. I would not have had the one without the other, The seeing value in others may be why I work with individuals with different abilities. Just because a person does not talk easily , does not mean they cannot communicate, have a choice, etc. Well it might take a bit of extra effort to bring out the value in some people and in some horses. I too am very flawed, I have my own weakness in social interaction, and my own tendency to "take the bit and bolt" in online conversations. To some of you that may mean that i am not worth listening to, but some might be adept enough to forgive my flaws and see value in the other parts.

Regarding Submission: I do not like the term submission or relaxation as described in the dressage tests, and it would be nice if the powers that be would own up to the storm they create by using such terms. There are better terminology, and they could change the term rather than endlessly explain that its not what it means. i will simply say again, what i already said, submission is a state of mind, it is a character description, whereas suppleness is a physical trait, and physical attribute. i person may be able to life 400 pounds, but that says nothing about their temper. A person may be able to put their leg behind their head, but that says nothing about their ability to be kind. Hinneman equated a physical attribute with a temperamental one in a way that is just not reasonable, no matter how many apologists attempt to make it so.

to me, personally, the tone of the preliminary parts of the article were off putting. The parts that were interesting and enlightening had to be found, just like you might have to find the talent in a horse that steps on your toe, ffs.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:27 pm

Yes but, there's also something to be said for not trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

The horses that were sold off quickly as not suitable for dressage were more than likely sold as hunters or pleasure horses. We're probably going back 60 or 70 years at least here. Nice horses weren't a dime a dozen in Europe at that point, thanks to the depradations of war and its dire consequences for the horse.

It's certainly possible that they were going to the sausage factory, but I think unlikely if they were well bred, quality horses. Their monetary value would be much higher than meat by the time the economy had recovered enough that someone was interested in training, and had a market for, dressage horses. So I wouldn't get too emotional about the concept of a "discard pile."

(I also dislike the use of the word "submission" in dressage land. I think we could come up with something that better described what we are looking for and didn't make non-dressage people cringe.)

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm

Agree with Mountaineer. Additionally, Hinneman's purpose is different than, say, the average amateur. He needs/needed to weed out quickly the horses that wouldn't make it to the top. I think it's fair to say when he's talking about a horse that steps on toes, he's not talking about a handler that's just met their first equine-- he's talking about himself and/or his family (who are presumably decent handlers that know how to install manners).

I know of a TB mare that just does not have the innate understanding of where her feet are in relation to objects or people. She's not a candidate for FEI because it takes her so much longer to figure out where her parts are at any given time than an equivalently aged more athletic horse. If you've got limited time and are weeding out horses to only find the ones that are going to make it near where you want to go, you'd weed her out immediately. However, she's sweet and pleasant to ride and has a place in the barn based on those traits and not her innate ability.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:13 pm

Did you read the article by Werner Schockemohle, a fascinating and interesting article on breeding. At first i was horrfied because there is a quote in there that says " Werner Schockemöhle – ... if they are not good showjumpers then they are only good for slaughter" . Gosh i had a conniption, but the article was full of very good stuff, and when i re read the quote it actually meant that you have to breed horses that can both show jump and do dressage and that the average person can ride, otherwise if they cannot show jump they are only good for slaughter. http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2018/0 ... ockemohle/

but i did have a jolly good conniption first.

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Chisamba wrote: if i ever was a fan it is now my opinion that i am no longer one.
If you or anyone has the time or inclination, this blog by Tik Maynard is very interesting. He worked as a working student for Hinneman for about 12 weeks. This is Chapter 4 of the blog, where Tik gets fired. The earlier chapters address when he first started working there and how things go.
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/ch ... mature-end

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:00 pm

I just read up to where he works with Ingrid... sounds like his first employer is a good rider but not a good teacher.... I wasn't fond of the "keep the side reins tight" comment... I wish I would have been able to see the horse who was wearing them so i could see why he wanted them "tight".

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Re: Hinneman article

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:23 pm

Chisamba wrote:In particular, i know a lot of submissive horses, schoolies, kind horses that are not supple, one is an attitude and the other is physical ability. mutually exclusive.


I see that point. My horse, as are most horses, is extremely obedient but he isn't always supple for sure.

I can also imagine that he is saying a horse cannot truly use themselves if they aren't submissive. They will feel not supple if they are not completely obedient.

I had read this article a while ago and it didn't raise my eyebrows. I do use the thing with doing the same thing in the same place every day in rehabbing my horse. That is useful in rehab but I would not use it so much normally. Actually I wouldn't use it at all normally LOL. Anyway, I have a routine where I canter a few times around the outside of the ring on the grass and then swing into the ring and do a large circle (the ring is twice as wide as a dressage arena) of countercanter and then come back to canter in f/d/o in the ring for a lap. Then I do it in the other direction. My horse knows this routine and that helps.

(And just to add CC left (i.e. in right lead) feels exactly like canter in terms of balance but CC right is harder for my horse. Which leg is the issue there? RH?) Canter right is slightly worse than canter left also.)

in case anyone wants to know, I converted the meters/3 minutes to mph...

walk - 4.3 mph
trot - 9.3 mph
canter - 18.6 mph (that seems high)


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