What does "submission" mean to you in training?

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What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:39 pm

Picking this topic up from another thread:
What does "submission" mean to you? Or what other term do you prefer?

I tend to think of submission as being related to acceptance of all of the aids. It doesn't have a bad vibe to me, but perhaps that is because I learned it in more classical contexts. I also think about the horse "surrendering" their body to the aids/to the training. That can be a lengthy process and a challenging one---but ultimately, I think that is what training asks of the horse.

What do you think?

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Dresseur » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:55 pm

I personally dislike the term submission because the definition of it includes the idea of yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person. I know that we define it differently in dressage terms - but I think that a better word world be willingness or tractability. I'm not sure why we would try to change the definition of a known word to suit our particular discipline.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:07 pm

Dresseur wrote: I'm not sure why we would try to change the definition of a known word to suit our particular discipline.
Does anyone know how the word came about for dressage? Was it translated? I think the FEI rules could use an overhaul. Why do their rules have to be like the bible.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby kande50 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:12 pm

I never thought of submission as a particularly bad thing before I understood how negative R (pressure and release) works, but now that I do I definitely think that it's a very bad thing because of the potential for misapplication, and the damage that can result.

Nor do I want to see the terms obedience and submission changed to cooperation, as I think that just sanitizes the reality. Unless of course, cooperation is used in the context of, "you will cooperate with me because if you don't I'll make your life a living hell".

In fact, what I'd like to see is a lot more honesty, so that those who interact with horses are fully aware of what they're doing, or being taught to do, so that they can make informed decisions about whether or not it really is all that important to them to have a submissive horse, and what kinds of aversives they're willing to use to train him to be submissive enough to suit them.

Just to be clear, I have no problem with the use of negative R by those who understand how to use it without damaging horses, but just feel that everyone who uses it should be made aware of what they're actually doing, and what happens when -R is used in ways that do damage horses.
Last edited by kande50 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby kande50 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:17 pm

musical comedy wrote:Why do their rules have to be like the bible.


Maybe because no one can agree on what they should be, so they're stuck with what they've already got?

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:39 pm

I think submission = obedient.

I use obedient often. I never use submissive.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:50 pm

I've often heard "horse not submitting" from trainers and judges in relation to push back against the rider's aids. For example, the rider puts a leg on, the horse pushes into leg (subtle insubordination) or kicks out (more extreme insubordination). That is why I associate submission with "acceptance."

A trail/hack horse could be quite obedient (within the range of their job), but not particularly accepting of the aids.

Another situation to think about is when we ask the horse to be more aligned and stacked up in their bodies. This requires acceptance of our aids/management of the horse's alignment and weighting of each leg. As horses learn this, they can have a very emotional response ("Hey, you are messing with my body!" "Hey, I don't want to line up like that--it is hard!"). But in good training there is a point that the horse is willing to receive the aids and they do "give in"/give an accepting response.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:05 pm

Tsavo wrote:I think submission = obedient.

I use obedient often. I never use submissive.
It's the same thing imo. Obey=do what I say. Whether we want to admit it or not, we as riders are the authority and we are dictating our will on the horse. Some horses comply more easily than others and we call that willingness. They comply easily either because it is easy for them to do because of their talent/conformation and/or because the trainer has introduced the work slowly/methodically. Some comply because they have learned that not to comply results in discomfort.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Tuddy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:31 pm

I've mentioned before I don't like the word "submission", it sounds so one-sided. I want to have a relationship with my horses, we both have brains and feelings; therefore, I would rather we cooperate together instead of me calling the shots all the time. Yes, there will be times when we need our horses to do something with no questions asked, emergencies for instance.

I am the one that is asking my horses to do things for my benefit. Really, at the end of the day, they just want a full belly and safe place to live. Anything else is the human's wishes, and we should be grateful that they are willing to be caught and be in our presence, let alone fussed over and ridden. Asking them to submit to our whims and training practices sounds harsh, we should be asking their permission for these things, and then figuring out in the most kind way possible how to ask them the right questions, so that we get the answers we are expecting.

Just my piddly 2 cents.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby khall » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:59 pm

I prefer partnership to submission. Or harmony. We have to work as a team with the rider leading the dance but the horse participating.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:16 pm

This is an interesting thread. Many of you across different experiences and perspectives dislike "submission" as a term or consider it synonymous to obedience.

For obedience, I tend to think of demands like we ask the horse to trot-halt and the horse trot-halts. But with acceptance (my view of submission), I think of them adjusting *how* they do that movement in relation to our aids (for ex. the quality/throughness/cadence/energy/etc. of the trot-halt). When the horse is accepting (submissive), they let us into their body.

I could be totally off base! (but this understanding has come from some decent sources ;-))

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby mari » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:18 pm

This is a lovely thread, following along with interest.

For me it certainly has to do with rideability, that you can put aids on and the horse will let you in. Along with that eventually comes the softness in the body, and the ability to shape the horse as you want.

But another big component, and for me where the word "submission" becomes more relevant, is the focus or attention that the horse is willing to give to you as the rider. My gelding is super rideable, in the sense that he is well-schooled, he knows the buttons, it's super easy to teach him new buttons because he's willing and not worried when I get it wrong, and he's willing to give anything a try. BUT his attention tends to wander, a lot. It is super frustrating, because many things are more interesting than me.

So this is where we have to work on real submission, in the proper you-will-pay-attention-and-react-smartly sense. If I start a ride off with that mindset, I only have to do that for the first 10 minutes, and then the rest of the ride is easy. If I start my ride with too much of a partnership mindset, we can have 40 minutes of 50% effort from him.
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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby AmityBee » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:11 am

Like others said, I never use "submissive" in the context of riding. Obedient, maybe. But I have the luxury being able to use "durchlässig" or "Durchlässigkeit" without sounding like a pompous a$$. :lol: ;) It basically means "to allow to pass through". And I think that's a nice expression. A horse that's "durchlässig" is physically able and mentally willing to allow the riders aid to come through. To me it suggests sumission without being one sided.

I actually think than Durchlässigkeit is what Johann Hinnemann was going for in that article (haven't read it).

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:48 am

Durchlassigheid is simply permeability, it is another of those words that has a perfectly good English translation but when first used by one language to another instead of using a dictionary to find the translation, one person possibly asked another to translate and it because an uber pompous snob used word to mean i train with some one from Germany.

my problem with the term submission, is that unless you are handing in your thesis, it relates to an attitude of mind, in my opinion, it is not a physical skill. In dressage some how people have translated it into physical ability, not only looseness, responsiveness etc, but also strength and suppleness which are acquired skills. I have seen stock horses that are very co operative and not very talented get the " needs better submission" comment because they are a bit short strided and muscle bound, even though they are quietly and politely doing exactly what asked,

oh and yes, and how about is the rider actually asking or are they sitting there stressed to death hanging on the mouth and going through the motions. So in my opinion, the term submission is completely wrong. It should indicate both how well the rider asked, and how good the communication was between rider and horse. I like the term communication because it speaks to the means of connection and connection is a big deal in dressage,

On a slight side note, I do not know why a concerted effort has not been made to improve dressage terminology

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Tsavo » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:26 am

Chisamba wrote:On a slight side note, I do not know why a concerted effort has not been made to improve dressage terminology


I think the reason is because dressage has a long history that is valued but not as academic as it could be. I think the situation would be different if there were more elite riders and trainers with science training.

The Nobel physicist Richard Feynman makes the point that "If you can’t explain something in simple terms, you don’t understand it."

https://kottke.org/17/06/if-you-cant-ex ... erstand-it

The other thing is this quote, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

Because dressage is so empirical and so dependent on physical abilities and skills, it does not lend itself to an academic approach to explain it. I can safely say nobody who got anywhere in dressage could have predicted what they had to do to get there. Having a real explanation for what is happening still isn't going to majick people up the levels but I think breaking it down to simpler concepts that are relevant to every day living can help.

And the last thing is elite riders and trainers have to agree on what things in fact are. Long chapters written about how to do a HP could be considerably shortened with greater understanding for students.

I read an article recently about how the only way to collection is HH. Once a student is told why this is... a HH is the only way you change the balance that the horse will accept. Then they can be told why the horse has to be straight... so the collection is done equally on both sides. You can teach someone what a HH is on the ground holding the bridle in movement to show them how it needs to be timed with the movement. Having this understanding is likely going to help them get it.

The other thing is much of dressage is simply trained responses by the horse. These things should not be elevated to profound cosmic truths. There is really nothing in dressage that is in that category. It's all meat puppets with nervous systems guiding other meat puppets with nervous systems all obeying physical laws. LOL

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:03 pm

Of course the term submission has a very negative impact for me, from its use in BDSM, and the submissive in that sense, in particularly with me because i worked with a person severly injured from being a submissive and she believed it was the supreme act of love , to die from a beating and not complain, as a submissive.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:25 pm

I have zero problem with the word submission, or obedience, as I also learned in the classical context. I have no baggage about the words from my life, and any religious use of the word submission (ie- wives submit to the husbands) is not even on my radar here.

The horse DOES need to submit to the seat/hand mentally and physically. Then the rider directs the horse in a way that brings out more harmony.

I guess I get the feeling of this so much that the words aren't that important.

I have an intense dislike of horses that won't work and cooperate. I am very lucky that my horse is very agreeable (the one I have now) and there has to be part that "goes along with it" and submits to the directions.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby kande50 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:06 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
I have an intense dislike of horses that won't work and cooperate.


Whereas I have all kinds of empathy for horses who won't work and cooperate, because I strongly believe that if a horse knows what he needs to do and thinks he can do it, then it takes very, very little to motivate him to do it.

So whenever I meet a horse who won't cooperate I'm convinced that he thinks he can't, either because he doesn't know what he needs to do to escape the aversives/earn the rewards, or he doesn't think he can do it so can't cooperate.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:36 pm

Kande, I think that the horse's personality also plays a role in how cooperative, or not, they are. I have known horses that from day 1, were a bit cheeky and had an, I don't have to if I don't want to attitude about life. Carefully managed, these horses were upstanding citizens, but they would still test riders to see what they could and couldn't get away with. When they were sold, depending on what type of handler/trainer/rider they went to, they either stayed upstanding citizens, or they became sulky about the work that they were being asked to do, which was often a step down from what they were previously being asked to do - both in terms of effort required and difficulty of movements.

I personally don't believe that horses give their all out of the goodness of their own hearts - they want to eat, drink, sleep and poop, not necessarily in that order - and some horses are just more malleable than others in terms of baseline cooperation and personality.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:48 pm

I like the suggestion to think about the term "permeable." A horse who is permeable to the aids is very rideable.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby kande50 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:25 pm

Dresseur wrote:
I personally don't believe that horses give their all out of the goodness of their own hearts


Neither do I. And in fact, I believe that it's a very direct relationship, and the more we want a horse to give the greater the rewards need to be, which means the greater the aversives need to be.

Not necessarily that the aversives need to be harsh, but only that they have to be aversive enough to motivate the horse to produce work that's aversive in itself.

But to put it into perspective, would any of us expect to have to give our all for nothing, or for very little?

...and some horses are just more malleable than others in terms of baseline cooperation and personality.


Agree that their dna is what it is, so if we want more submission we need to figure out how to get it from the horse we have. And, more importantly, we need to figure out how to get it without getting so many unwanted side effects that what we get is worse than not getting it at all. IOW, if we end up with a mentally or physically damaged horse then IMO, all the submission we've created is worthless.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 pm

It does not really matter if we find the term submission okay because we understand the context,

let me liken it to the word retarded. This is was a medical diagnosis, but even if you used the term retarded in its context, people would consider you are demeaning. So eventually American Psychiatric association changed the diagnosis to mental development disorder. it is both more descriptive and less demeaning.

So even if people accept that in dressage the term submission has acceptable levels of cultural, traditional and historic application, to the rest of the world, its a slur, it has a negative connotation, and if you use the term it brings censure on the sport. and as such, dressage should be willing to change its terminology.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Tuddy » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:48 pm

kande50 wrote:IOW, if we end up with a mentally or physically damaged horse then IMO, all the submission we've created is worthless.


This one kicked me right in the feels.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby khall » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:55 pm

chisamba I never really thought about submission being an issue in that way. How often does the rest of the world come into contact with submission in the dressage sense I wonder.

Some horses absolutely want to be more with people than others. I'm sure it is to get something out of the relationship but I've seen it from early on. Both Rip and his sister Gaila would leave their dam as sucklings to come hang with me. In fact I had to put hot wire across the top of the gate to keep them from coming over it when I left the field.

Yeah Rip is one of those who is not the most cooperative of horses. He was quite cheeky and a bit rank for many years. Finally now he has matured and accepted his working life for the most part. I do know that he would have been an outlaw if not handled properly. What can I say, I bred him!

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:29 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
I have an intense dislike of horses that won't work and cooperate.


Whereas I have all kinds of empathy for horses who won't work and cooperate, because I strongly believe that if a horse knows what he needs to do and thinks he can do it, then it takes very, very little to motivate him to do it.

So whenever I meet a horse who won't cooperate I'm convinced that he thinks he can't, either because he doesn't know what he needs to do to escape the aversives/earn the rewards, or he doesn't think he can do it so can't cooperate.


Sure, but at a basic level I need my horse "with me". My first horse Rye was very very very stubborn by nature. No amt of good work undid that. I know who bred her, she was like her dad. From day 1.

Riot will try 200% every ride. When I spend so much time/money/effort I need to start with this basic level of "try". I know know his breeder, he was always cheerful and curious.

Maybe it'd be different if I had my own place, could have more horses, or had fewer goals. But I can't get to third or 4th with a lack of work ethic.

Don't worry, all horses have moments of struggle, of course I have empathy. I just can't afford to put that much effort into that situation FOR ME. IT's also not fair to the horse to make them go around when they just don't want to. Find them a job they are happy to do.

That said, Rye made it easier for me to ride Riot- I learned a lot. But in the end, frankly a waste of everyone's time (knowing just how much of a joy it is to ride a very happy and "game" horse)

These are the exact opposite of the specturm, so your experience is prob somewhere in the middle.

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Re: What does "submission" mean to you in training?

Postby Sue B » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:39 pm

I don't really care to parse dressage terms, but what Rye just wrote sparked something in my pea-brain. Having rehabbed a number of really messed up horses (mentally esp), I suggest that true submission (i.e. voluntary) is a result of gaining the trust of the horse. In Rye's case, her mare may simply have "decided" that no human was worth her complete trust, hence she was always difficult to work with. Iow, the only being she 100% trusted was herself, therefore she had to maintain absolute control. Riot, otoh, is more than happy to give all his trust to his new human, who, in return, promises never to abuse that sacred bond and reciprocates that trust. That, in a nutshell, forms the basis of a true partnership. It took me 6 years to gain that from Scotty, but once truly established, training became more like dancing and less like instruction. So to me, submission is a precious gift from our horses--I do not view it as a negative.


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