" competed through to the FEI levels"?

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" competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:04 pm

So there is this trainer I considered training with who says on his site he " competed through to the FEI levels " but a quick search in the FEI base show he is not registered there and thus has no results there.

He has though some results on the centerline scores up to PSG and I1.

What would you think of someone like that?

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:09 pm

well, if he has sores at PSG and I1 then he has competed FEI levels. There is a difference in "doing the tests" at FEI and being nationally/internationally ranked FEI.

This doesn't matter to me, it's not false advertising in this example. I don't require that the trainer be in the FEI database.

Even more important to me is how many students are successful at the level I want to be at, that shows they can not just ride but teach that level.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Rosie B » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:13 pm

It wouldn't concern me at all. I'd want to see successful competition results at FEI on multiple horses, and I'd also want to understand how successful his students are. If he's successful and his students are also having success, I'd definitely consider training with him. I personally wouldn't give two hoots if he's registered with the FEI as long as he's meeting the above criteria.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:32 pm

The ONLY thing that matters is a record of advancing students and that the horses love the person. Just my opinion.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Abby Kogler » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:09 pm

It really depends.

I have seen really bad people, as in really bad, with some competitive (Silver medals or better) experience, that I would not go near. Its also tough to judge on whether they have produced students who go up the levels, since that can also be misleading; people can trainer hop, buy horses that carry them higher. And some excellent people don't do the show thing any more and aren't 'bringing people up the level ie Jeremy Steinberg. I don't think one can make a criteria, really.

Through the years I have learned that the only real way to gauge a trainer is to watch them in the warm ups as they ride and as they school their people. Are the horses calm? Are the instructions to the student clear and do they have anything to do with what you actually see? Is everybody tense and anxious? Is the work correct for the level they are at (the students)?

So the lack of FEI would not bother me at all.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby tlkidding » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:13 pm

The FEI database only shows if a rider has competed at International or CDI events. A rider can compete at the FEI levels but only at National Federation shows and not CDIs. For National shows, you only have to be registered with the national organizations and not with the FEI.

So here's my question (I think this has been tossed around before too), I show my horse at FEI levels at National shows. Do I say he's an FEI horse since that's the level he's showing at, or does that imply he's showing at FEI International/CDI shows?

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:03 pm

tlkidding wrote:The FEI database only shows if a rider has competed at International or CDI events. A rider can compete at the FEI levels but only at National Federation shows and not CDIs. For National shows, you only have to be registered with the national organizations and not with the FEI.

So here's my question (I think this has been tossed around before too), I show my horse at FEI levels at National shows. Do I say he's an FEI horse since that's the level he's showing at, or does that imply he's showing at FEI International/CDI shows?



Level he's showing at...if you ask me. i always infer it's just at that level unless otherwise mentioned "internatoinal/CDI"

Course I am a small fish in all of this!

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby HafDressage » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:36 am

FEI is the writer and publisher of the PSG through GP, so if he's shown any of those levels at even a tiny schooling show, then he's shown through the FEI levels.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:49 pm

So I did have the training with that trainer. I had to gather three other people as he does not come to one person. Me and the two others were quite happy with the training, as for me he was helping me with addressing the crookedness in my horse.

The fourth rider was very disappointed with her training session and I agree with her.

This was an 8 y.o. ottb she got two months ago, the horse spent last two years on a farm away from racing (she raced 29 times). The horse does not know the idea of contact, nor going in a steady tempo, transitions are not that good as well. During the training the horse "spooked" during trot work taking suddenly off in canter but the rider stayed on. The trainer corrected her seat, her legs her hands, nevertheless after these two sudden "spooks" he told her to dismount (like 10 min. before the end of her 45 min session) and was walking with her explaining things.

It looked like he himself got scared that the rider would eventually get hurt and chose to get her off this horse. In my opinion he could have finished the training just in wall working on her seat, transitions, flexion and so on.

Needless to say we will not have another training with him because of that disappointing training session.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:35 pm

ElaPe wrote:So I did have the training with that trainer. I had to gather three other people as he does not come to one person. Me and the two others were quite happy with the training, as for me he was helping me with addressing the crookedness in my horse.

The fourth rider was very disappointed with her training session and I agree with her.

This was an 8 y.o. ottb she got two months ago, the horse spent last two years on a farm away from racing (she raced 29 times). The horse does not know the idea of contact, nor going in a steady tempo, transitions are not that good as well. During the training the horse "spooked" during trot work taking suddenly off in canter but the rider stayed on. The trainer corrected her seat, her legs her hands, nevertheless after these two sudden "spooks" he told her to dismount (like 10 min. before the end of her 45 min session) and was walking with her explaining things.

It looked like he himself got scared that the rider would eventually get hurt and chose to get her off this horse. In my opinion he could have finished the training just in wall working on her seat, transitions, flexion and so on.

Needless to say we will not have another training with him because of that disappointing training session.


He got paid to give his opinion, and that was his decision. She got 35 of the 45 mins, I don't see that as a problem?

I can't blame him for that decision, sounds like she has no breaks, steering or control. I see many many OTTBs on a daily basis in a variety of scenarios (green, advanced) and I think he made the right choice.

Heck most OTTBs are not ridden in this short of time after racing and do a "Let down" phase.

Also, did anyone ASK HIM what made him say that?

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby musical comedy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:44 pm

Ryeissa wrote:He got paid to give his opinion, and that was his decision. She got 35 of the 45 mins, I don't see that as a problem?

I can't blame him for that decision, sounds like she has no breaks, steering or control. I see many many OTTBs on a daily basis in a variety of scenarios (green, advanced) and I think he made the right choice.

Heck most OTTBs are not ridden in this short of time after racing and do a "Let down" phase.

Also, did anyone ASK HIM what made him say that?
I agree. I wasn't there, but it sounds like this rider wasn't ready for a clinic. Some responsibility is on the clinician for not making it clear what type of riders/horses he is willing to work with.

If this clinician was helpful to the other riders, I would bring him/her back. <sigh> I wish novice riders wouldn't buy ottb's.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Tuddy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:07 pm

musical comedy wrote: I agree. I wasn't there, but it sounds like this rider wasn't ready for a clinic. Some responsibility is on the clinician for not making it clear what type of riders/horses he is willing to work with.

If this clinician was helpful to the other riders, I would bring him/her back.


I was in this similar situation with a BNT trainer a couple years ago - many of you may have recalled my session with Eddo Hoekstra - anywho, even if the rider wasn't ready for the clinic, we (riders) need to start somewhere. But with that being said, I absolutely agree that the clinician needs to be very upfront with what type of riders and horses they work with. I had rode with Eddo a year before using my coach (at the time) horse, and we had a great lesson. But when I went in with Tuddy, the green horse, all hell broke loose.

It is very nice of you to be supportive of your friend who had the bad experience with this trainer, and yes, I can sympathize with them feeling like they are not getting their money's worth.

If you feel you did get some useful knowledge and tools to use with your horse from this clinician, I would definitely bring him/her back. As for your friend, maybe help them find a clinician that would be more suitable to their needs and level of training at this moment.

I find clinics are hard to gear up for because, as stated above, (some) clinicians have a set standard of what level of training a horse should have when presented to them for the lesson, but yet, seem to forget that it is a student based industry that they have chosen to work in, and that students are the ones (helping) paying their bills and supporting their livelihood too.

And that they were a student once too.

My 2 cents (or maybe I should say 5 cents because Canada doesn't use the penny anymore... ;) )

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:02 pm

musical comedy wrote: I wish novice riders wouldn't buy ottb's.


Amen.

Also, sounds like the OP didn't' watch the clinician work with similar horses at other barns?

I'm all for things not working out, but to say this is a bad clinician is a real dis-service.

I find it very interesting that the initial thread was about FEI levels and we have a VERY green TB. Not every trainer is a good match for each rider.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:04 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
musical comedy wrote: I wish novice riders wouldn't buy ottb's.


Amen.

Also, sounds like the OP didn't' watch the clinician work with similar horses at other barns?

I'm all for things not working out, but to say this is a bad clinician is a real dis-service.

I find it very interesting that the initial thread was about FEI levels and we have a VERY green TB. I suggest a event or jumper rider to coach a very green horse and rider- one really does need to treat this sort of horse much differently than your typical green WB, arab, QH,etc. The horse has a much different set of buttons instilled and different asymmetries. You need to work with someone who can paint the classical principles over this situation, it's hard to do that.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:32 pm

Thank you for your comments.

Some things to clarify:


* the trainer was informed beforehand what kind of riders/horses representing what level were to participate, had no objections whatsoever to info that one is a 8 y.o. OTTB

* the rider of the OTTB is NOT a novice rider, she is a 30 y.o. girl who's owned together with her older sister two horses for almost 20 years - she rides other peoples horses, incl. mine, rides on trails, do some jumping as well

* the 8 y.o. OTTB mare had 2 years off the track, living on a farm with big pastures with other horses doing nothing apart from grazing


Also, if one is Laura Graves, then yes, one can have set of standards which level horses/riders they want to see at their clinics, they'll still have more than enough clients.

But a not so big name of a trainer, even though he/she is the FEI level riding trainer, living off giving lessons, then no, such a trainer can't afford to say no to 440$ for one afternoon because one of the riders does not fulfill certain requirements.

So in my opinion, such a trainer should do his/her best, maybe just finish the lesson doing only the walk, incl. halts, voltes, flextions, corrections of seat etc. work and not shortening the lesson and making the rider dismount.

Also it was interesting that the trainer told the rider that she should work with this OTTB on the lunge line with side reins in order to teach the horse the basics of contact. Last month I told her and her sister (the sister also rides this OTTB and is able to ride her better) the same thing, that the horse needs to learn about contact and it would be best done on the lunge line with side reins.

Sounds like the OP didn't' watch the clinician work with similar horses at other barns?


No, I did not. And can't imaging doing such a thing: to me it seems not to be feasible because first of all such clinics are utterly private events i.e. no strangers allowed, second of all I do not see myself driving for 2 hours one way to watch a clinic, third of all what's the chance there is another OTTB representing similar level of training on such a clinic, and finally fourth of all: it is not me who owns an OTTB.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:54 pm

ElaPe wrote:T
No, I did not. And can't imaging doing such a thing: to me it seems not to be feasible because first of all such clinics are utterly private events i.e. no strangers allowed, second of all I do not see myself driving for 2 hours one way to watch a clinic, third of all what's the chance there is another OTTB representing similar level of training on such a clinic, and finally fourth of all: it is not me who owns an OTTB.


Interesting, I am in the US and all the clinics I go to are open to the public and advertised through my local GMO, so I always check out first before riding, and get references from people. I regularly drive at least an hour or more to horse events. I don't do many clinics unless they are within the vein of my current work (ie- I ride with my trainer's trainer but I get very good regular help). I'd rather waste 30 dollars than take my horse over for a bad deal. Also, getiing off never does anything bad for a horse, in my opinion, unless it will refinforce a bad habit.

Please don't be defensive, we all just want to help you when you are unhappy with a situation.

Are you a trainer yourself? Is this your client? It seems like your opinion on what should happen is really strong here, I am trying to see what is going on.

IF you were happy, why the negitivity about this ONE horse? I am not sure I am following your logic here because of how he chose to spend the last 10 mins?

It sounds like this rider just needs more longe time with this horse, and the trainer knew it.... good luck to her. TBS can be tricky dudes.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:03 am

This training I am talking about in this post is not a clinic, but a training thus not open to the general public nor advertised. So are the other ones he conducts.

I don't do many clinics either. I'd rather watch then online.

The previous clinic was in 2016 and it was with a GP rider (not a BNT but quite known). He cut my training short by 15 min (I paid for a 45 min session, got exactly 30 min ("Oh I think we're done for today, you were doing real good"). So I don't feel like doing those "clinics" and constantly worry whether I am going to be cut short or not and be annoyed by that. And this one cutting her short by 10 min is also quite annoying = dissatisfied client = not enough people for possible future trainings. Therefore my annoyance with that.

The OTTB owners (two sisters) are not my clients, nor I am a trainer. I am annoyed because I did talk them to take this lesson and they were full of hopes and it ended like this. Maybe they will be convinced that lunge line work with side reins is a necessity afterall.

I

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Josette » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:28 am

It sounds to me like he was concerned for her safety. Her lesson was cut by 10 minutes. He gave advise for her position and to do lunge work with her horse. She has homework now to do with her horse. Hopefully the next time there will be no spooks and she can complete her lesson slot. IMO her safety was first priority and I respect him for that decision.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:11 am

You arranged for private lessons from a trainer who will travel.

The trainer chose to stop a dangerous lesson early. He probably felt the horse was green and needed a shorter session.

I do not see the problem. It sounds like the rider does not take advice anyway.

If you want to deny yourself a satisfactory lesson because of someone else, that is your problem.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Tsavo » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:43 am

It is possible he thought he might get sued if she got hurt on his watch. Who knows. People sue over lots of things.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:11 pm

ElaPe wrote:The OTTB owners (two sisters) are not my clients, nor I am a trainer. I am annoyed because I did talk them to take this lesson and they were full of hopes and it ended like this. Maybe they will be convinced that lunge line work with side reins is a necessity afterall.

I


This is about unrealistic expectations, which is really too bad for everyone involved. Sounds like this isn't about the trainer at all, but your friends who need a reality check.

I guess I don't watch the clock per say, the horse probably had his mind expanded enough in 35 mins and why put him through too much in order to make a certain time point?

I would just have this trainer come for everyone else, sounds like there were no other issues with the clients. Good trainers are hard to find, so at least to me I would try to keep this going.

I get that not all trainers work for everyone and not all need to be invited back, but this whole thread is evolving to have nothing to do with this trainer and instead is about your dynamic with the friend and how they don't really seem to have a clear timeline for how to train a very very green OTTB.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Dresseur » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:45 pm

Riding horses is never about riding the clock or riding the money we put into them. On the time thing, there's an expression, "quit while you're ahead." There's a reason for that. On the money side of things, just because we, as humans, say that we put x amount of dollars down, doesn't mean that we will get anything out of it. You could pay 30k for a horse and end up with a lame pasture pet. You could pay 200 (or whatever) in clinic fees and the horse may or may not cooperate. You could be the best rider in the world and the horse has a bad day. Just because you dump money into them doesn't mean you get a return. That's horses. The clinician cut the riding portion 10 minutes short. It sounds as though he actually continued the lesson by explaining concepts to her. The trainer sounds to be a conscientious individual who did not want the horse to be continued to be pressured, which could have lasting effects on the training for days, months or years to come. Better that than frying the horse's mind further just because some entitled human wants their 10 more minutes.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:08 pm

Dresseur wrote:Riding horses is never about riding the clock or riding the money we put into them. On the time thing, there's an expression, "quit while you're ahead." There's a reason for that. On the money side of things, just because we, as humans, say that we put x amount of dollars down, doesn't mean that we will get anything out of it. You could pay 30k for a horse and end up with a lame pasture pet. You could pay 200 (or whatever) in clinic fees and the horse may or may not cooperate. You could be the best rider in the world and the horse has a bad day. Just because you dump money into them doesn't mean you get a return. That's horses. The clinician cut the riding portion 10 minutes short. It sounds as though he actually continued the lesson by explaining concepts to her. The trainer sounds to be a conscientious individual who did not want the horse to be continued to be pressured, which could have lasting effects on the training for days, months or years to come. Better that than frying the horse's mind further just because some entitled human wants their 10 more minutes.



we also don't know if the owners had an issue with the time, just OP seems to resent this...but OP had a good lesson, so I don't quite get why she cares so much. Sounds like OP wants control over everything....???

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:02 pm

Ryeissa wrote:..just OP seems to resent this...but OP had a good lesson, so I don't quite get why she cares so much. Sounds like OP wants control over everything....???


Huh? I think it is simply *disappointing* to have one of the number the OP needs to get a good visiting trainer to come not end up appreciate the training offered. That is all that I read in this description.

ElaPe, I do get the frustration of trying to wrangle adult learners into a consistent lesson program. It can be especially challenging when people are at very different points in their education/level of experience. It does tend to work best when people have similar goals (like working hard and progressing) and perspectives (similar philosophies of training). Sometimes that is awfully hard to find in a group!

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:43 pm

piedmontfields wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:..just OP seems to resent this...but OP had a good lesson, so I don't quite get why she cares so much. Sounds like OP wants control over everything....???


Huh? I think it is simply *disappointing* to have one of the number the OP needs to get a good visiting trainer to come not end up appreciate the training offered. That is all that I read in this description.


OP interjects a lot of her own opinions into what should and shouldn't have been done.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:10 pm

In my opinion a trainer must stick to the scheduled time and if all the work has been done and still some time is over a walk work could be conducted Anyone else is of course allowed to have their opinions and be happy for paying for less time than agreed and pAid for.


Yes it is difficult to find a reasonAble trainer that would come to ones stable even more so if one has to find additional willing riders.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby kande50 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:25 am

I understand what you're saying, but the cost for a lesson is so arbitrary that it's kind of silly to think in terms of, "I paid $400 for 40 minutes so if the instructor only gave me 30 then he cheated me out of $100. And the reason it's silly is because if the instructor spent the entire 40 minutes teaching you how to do anything you didn't want to learn then you were "cheated" out of (actually wasted) more than $400.

Or, if your instructor spent 10 minutes clearing up some basic misunderstandings that were preventing you from progressing, and then spent the other 30 teaching you nothing of value, most would still think the $400 was well spent.

IOW, the value of a lesson is in what was learned that is of use to the learner, not in how many minutes the instructor tried to teach the learner something. I also think that one of the more valuable lessons a trainer can learn is when it's time to give their horse a break.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:03 pm

ElaPe wrote:So I did have the training with that trainer. I had to gather three other people as he does not come to one person. Me and the two others were quite happy with the training, as for me he was helping me with addressing the crookedness in my horse.

The fourth rider was very disappointed with her training session and I agree with her.

This was an 8 y.o. ottb she got two months ago, the horse spent last two years on a farm away from racing (she raced 29 times). The horse does not know the idea of contact, nor going in a steady tempo, transitions are not that good as well. During the training the horse "spooked" during trot work taking suddenly off in canter but the rider stayed on. The trainer corrected her seat, her legs her hands, nevertheless after these two sudden "spooks" he told her to dismount (like 10 min. before the end of her 45 min session) and was walking with her explaining things.

It looked like he himself got scared that the rider would eventually get hurt and chose to get her off this horse. In my opinion he could have finished the training just in wall working on her seat, transitions, flexion and so on.

Needless to say we will not have another training with him because of that disappointing training session.


She got her full time, so I don't see the problem? It's still instruction. Many of my most important breakthoughs come from discussion when I'm just sitting on my horse JMHO. but I have a very conversational lesson style, in some ways. However, most of my ride is actually riding. I find that I learn by discussing more than most people.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:37 am

A few pictures from my training with the trainer. As I wrote before I was happy with my training session, we worked on straightening the horse via riding really on the outside rein, even if it meant sometimes counterflexing the horse a bit. The walk-canter departs were done through shoulder -fore position.
Attachments
FEI trainer - canter in  shoulder -fore.jpg
FEI trainer - canter in shoulder -fore.jpg (41.63 KiB) Viewed 18385 times
FEI trainer - walk- canter depart in  shoulder-fore.jpg
FEI trainer - walk- canter depart in shoulder-fore.jpg (63.22 KiB) Viewed 18385 times

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:57 am

Also it is very hard for a horse to take the wrong lead if in SF. That said I was riding an 18 HH horse two years ago who managed it multiple times. I guess if the horse is gangly enough he can take any lead LOL.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:43 pm

Tsavo wrote:Also it is very hard for a horse to take the wrong lead if in SF. That said I was riding an 18 HH horse two years ago who managed it multiple times. I guess if the horse is gangly enough he can take any lead LOL.



My horse can do it too, esp. to the right

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:56 pm

I think they have to be fairly athletic to pull it off.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:26 pm

Tsavo wrote:I think they have to be fairly athletic to pull it off.


Or extremely one-sided.

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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby ElaPe » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:13 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
Tsavo wrote:I think they have to be fairly athletic to pull it off.


Or extremely one-sided.


Mine is one-sided: the right canter is worse than left

Tsavo
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Re: " competed through to the FEI levels"?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:03 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:
Tsavo wrote:I think they have to be fairly athletic to pull it off.


Or extremely one-sided.


Good point.


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