Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

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Dresseur
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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:38 pm

The horses hips do not stay 100% square because the inside hind leg has to sweep up and under the center mass of the horse. The inside hind ideally comes all the way into the outside front's print. Otherwise, if the horse is just tracking dead even with the hips, there is no loading of one leg or another, we need the axial rotation. Otherwise, you are just doing a shoulder out with false neck bend. This article from Sustainable Dressage explains it quite well. http://www.sustainabledressage.net/coll ... ateral.php
The area behind the saddle cannot bend sideways. The spine here has stiff processes to the sides which prevent the horse from bending sideways. What the horse must do in this area, is to compensate this stiffness by lowering his inside hip and bend his haunches (lumbo-sacral joint/hip/knee) vertically so that the inner hip is actually more forward. This is part of the collecting effect of shoulder-in, and utterly necessary to keep the engagement. Without this it will only be an exercise like leg-yield, which is at its best a limbering exercise.


I mirror the spine of the horse with my hips, so I am turned a bit away from the wall. I don't ever rotate hips, waist and/or shoulders independently as that would break apart the inherent drive that I get from using my back and core. Rather, my leg will come back from the hip in order to ask the horse to move away depending on what movement I'm doing. In SI, my inside leg is at the girth and is the activity leg, outside leg slightly back to guard against the haunches drifting. In HI, my inside leg is at the girth as well, outside leg a bit back - but that is now my activity leg. In SI to R, my body position stays the same, I just move my inside leg slightly back as I make the switch and bring my outside leg slightly up - inside leg remains the activity leg throughout. HP is outside leg slightly back (activity leg), inside leg at girth - but in all of these, my hips remain perpendicular to the spine line of the horse.
Last edited by Dresseur on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tsavo
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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:54 pm

I posted that excerpt. Khall disagrees that the inner hip is forward so you can't agree with her and sustainable dressage simultaneously.

I will post some pictures from SvD showing the relative rotation of the shoulders and hips of the rider. This requires a rotation at the waist.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:11 pm

Sorry, I was not following who was disagreeing with what, I need more coffee! So, I agree with you regarding the hips of the horse - you DO want them as straight as you can manage though, so that the horse doesn't escape the loading of the hind quarters. I do not agree that the rider rotates the waist. I always keep him hips perpendicular to the horse's spine and my shoulders are stacked over my hips, it's the legs that move in the hip socket.

I hate that I'm posting this - but I had created this video with Paul a few years ago and this video shows the lateral movement/rider position better because it's shot on the rail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xm_AumnCRg

khall
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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby khall » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:48 pm

Dresseur what you wrote above makes absolutely no sense. If you agree with Tsavo then you would be disassociating your shoulders and hips to ride SI. Yet you say you keep your that core stability (which I fully agree with!) and your hips rotate slightly away from the wall (again I fully agree with) but the horse's hips are straight? Or straightish? No they are not, there is SLIGHT rotation of the horse's hips in SI away from the wall. The video you posted shows this as well (do not like that video, the horse looks lame ick) but you can also see where Paul B rotates his shoulders and hips to the inside. Shoulders slightly more than hips to keep the shoulders in line with the horse's shoulders and hips in line with the horse's hips. No you don't want the outside hind to step out, that disengages the horse. Why the rider keeps the outside leg back behind the girth to guard that outside hind leg.

How do you Tsavo and you Dresseur ride a 10 m circle? What do your shoulders and hips do, what are the leg aids and rein aids? What you do for 10 m circle is the aids for the SI since SI is the first step onto a 10 m circle. SF is first step of a 20 m circle and 4 track SI is first step onto 6 m volte.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Khall, we're saying the same thing. I'm saying that yes, I rotate my hips - but with my shoulders attached, so hips and shoulders are not separating like a barber pole. But, the spine of the horse is curved, so I'm following the line of the spine - which arcs away from the wall.

For a 10 meter circle, I turn hips and shoulders as one, inside leg at the girth, outside leg slightly back as a result of my hip turning (but again, I'm staying perpendicular with my seat bones to the spine of the horse) My outside leg will ask the horse to leave the wall - outside leg is the driving leg on a circle, and my inside rein indicates that I want the horse to turn (if I'm in SI, this is already being done - it's up to my leg to switch driving legs of the horse.)

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby khall » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:15 pm

Yes exactly!! I actually like the outside knee and thigh to help aid with the circle more than lower leg for turning, lower leg for driving (actually both lower legs for forward on the circle). Which when the rider rotates the shoulders and hips together (there is a SLIGHT difference in angle IMO of hips and shoulders in the rider, but keeping the core stability) that automatically places the rider's thigh more on the horse and makes it easy to close the knee. It is the lower inside leg that takes up the drive for SI. There is a balance of the aids: need of rotation of rider to bring the horse's shoulders off, outside lower leg to guard the outside hind leg of the horse, outside knee and thigh to help bring the shoulders of the horse off the track, inside lower leg and the girth to drive the horse down the wall. I tend to keep my seat evenly weighted usually.

I have to say I find this subject fascinating! I learned the theory early on in my dressage work and have refined it as I rode more horses both trained and untrained. SF/SI first time is so hard to ride with a green bean! It is more like a drunken sprawl. Yet now after years of this work I can use the laterals for my benefit like when Rip was being bargey the other day. Lateral work and especially SI was definitely my friend that day!

Was just talking with my boarder and student who has ridden for years but never really trained dressage with any lateral work. We were talking about teaching her very heavy in the front TB/Perch mare jambett and Spanish Walk to help her shift her weight back (she is long backed and straighter in the hind leg with a weakish loin) so we have carefully worked her in lateral work in hand now for quite a bit. Now we are upping the game, she needs to be more off her front end to be able to ride easier. Right now she is a very physical ride and turns like a bus (at least she turns now! She did not always) So we do all of these exercises to improve the horse's way of going. SI being the foundation we build upon.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:54 pm

There is a cartoon of a rider in SI on p. 167 of Balance in Movement. I don't have a protractor handy but the relative rotation depicted is about 20 degrees if not more. Are you considering that "slight" khall?

On p. 169, she talks about SI to counter SI requiring good mobility in the pelvis "as the 'inside' hip is suddenly on the outside and thus has to cover the furthest distance.". She goes on to state that a too small saddle will prevent this necessary movement. I agree there is a sense of movement of the hips relative to the horse's spine. I think this is what she is talking about.

In re volte, I ride it in a similar hip position as SI.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:11 pm

Same book, p. 163.

"Every lateral bend of the horse requires the rotation of the rider!. This rotation in the rider's upper body has to match exactly the lateral bend of the horse."

My sense in riding SI and 10 m voltes is there is very notiable rotation required. As I mentioned my horse will take just this rotation as an aid to start SI.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:42 pm

Yes, rotation of the rider to stay relative to the track and spine of the horse. But not separating the shoulders and hips of the riders.
IMG_5264.jpeg
IMG_5264.jpeg (165.5 KiB) Viewed 128 times


I'm saying that I do as in the top scribbles... where the hip and shoulder seen from the above are the same - but they stay perpendicular to the horse and track of the horse. It sounds as though you are advocating the bottom scribble... the hips staying straight and the shoulders rotating to match the shoulders of the horse.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:43 pm

I've been taught the hip match the horses hips and the shoulders match the horses shoulders. Therefore the bottom of the rider is moving differently than the top part of the rider.

However there's so much asymmetry in every Rider that we really have to talk about the unique strengths and weaknesses of each Horse and Rider. For example one of my shoulders always wants to curl forward and I have to account for that in shoulder in One Direction, and for example I need to guard differently with a certain hip and physically move it back.

However, if you look at me, because I bring my right shoulder too far forward, when it's the outside of the horse "bringing it back" might actually just be bringing it back to how it should have been looking had I not brought my asymmetry to the table. So MY aids include "right shoulder back" and right hip open, since I tend to fall to my left and be weaker in the right side. (not weak as in bad health, just asymmetrical weak- not neurological weak)
Last edited by Ryeissa on Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:09 pm

Janet Foy

The rider’s shoulders and hips should be turned inside slightly to be parallel to the horse’s shoulders so the outside hip and shoulder move forward as if you were traveling on a diagonal line away from the wall.


https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/j ... houlder-in

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:45 pm

Dresseur wrote:Yes, rotation of the rider to stay relative to the track and spine of the horse. But not separating the shoulders and hips of the riders.
IMG_5264.jpeg


I'm saying that I do as in the top scribbles... where the hip and shoulder seen from the above are the same - but they stay perpendicular to the horse and track of the horse. It sounds as though you are advocating the bottom scribble... the hips staying straight and the shoulders rotating to match the shoulders of the horse.


Yes I am doing what you say. I am doing the rotation that von Dietze talks about.

I can't find the cartoon online so I will describe it as best I can which I think will be sufficient.

In the cartoon on p. 167, the inside hip of the rider an inside haunch of the horse are both slightly ahead of the out hip and haunch and she draws parallel lines through the hips and haunches so she is definitely advocating hips and haunches remain parallel.

In the cartoon, the horse's shoulders and the rider's shoulders are parallel and in both cases the outsides are slightly forward of the insides.

I still don't have a protractor but I transferred the angle between the two parallel lines transferred to another sheet and kept bisecting a 90 angle by eye so there is some error. I am revising my estimate of the angle down from what I said previously. I think it is between 12 and 15 degrees, not 20 or more as I stated earlier. This is the rotation she talks about elsewhere as being necessary to match every lateral bend of the horse.

I guess the question is... if 12-15 degrees is correct, is that considered "slight"?
Last edited by Tsavo on Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:46 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Janet Foy

The rider’s shoulders and hips should be turned inside slightly to be parallel to the horse’s shoulders so the outside hip and shoulder move forward as if you were traveling on a diagonal line away from the wall.


https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/j ... houlder-in


Okay she is clearly not advocating matching the hips to the haunches.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:48 pm

I actually think much of this hinges on where the rider is sitting w.r.t. the bend as in where the saddle is sitting on the horse.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:12 pm

Tsavo wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:Janet Foy

The rider’s shoulders and hips should be turned inside slightly to be parallel to the horse’s shoulders so the outside hip and shoulder move forward as if you were traveling on a diagonal line away from the wall.


https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/j ... houlder-in


Okay she is clearly not advocating matching the hips to the haunches.

I have been taught that the Riders hips match the horses hips and the shoulders match the shoulders of the horse. So I would actually be turned in the saddle. However it seems that there are many variations on this.
I naturally want to bring my shoulders more forward so I can't tell if this is also a correction for my asymmetry basically I have to push my shoulder back which is on the outside wall. I basically have to open it up. So one might imagine that when I think of turning I'm actually what other people would consider Barber Shop pole straight?

I think in the end these discussions are helpful, but ultimately we have to ride the horses we have and we all come to the table with different strengths and weaknesses.

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Re: Notes from Charles de Kunffy (1)

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:09 pm

I agree asymmetries play into it. I use my asymmetries to correct them. I know I am tighter on the left hip so I know if I don't go to a certain point of pull that I am not rotated enough in SI. I find that pull and my horse slips into SI.


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