Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

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Xanthoria
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Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Xanthoria » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:55 pm

I like to do a weekly lunge for the Bronto: quick workout, less demanding of me but work for him. Improves manners too. Generally we do a little walk, then 5 mins of canter both ways with no side reins as I have always been taught not to use SR for canter, then the rest trot in SR.

I am reading elsewhere that people do indeed canter in SR. Would this not affect telescoping of the neck in canter?

Discuss!

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Dresseur » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:33 pm

This is tricky to explain. I DO canter in side reins. In fact, I used it to help with M's under saddle canter. Typically, I do a lot of transitions as opposed to long bouts of cantering. In terms of the neck. So, yes, I want to be able to elongate the neck - but as a result of what's happening behind. I don't want the neck bobbing in and out in the canter for balance, nor do I want the neck to be statically held by my hands. So, yes, the side reins are more static than what happens under saddle, but the horse also finds a way to carry itself without the neck making huge movements because the horse has to use itself in another way. The side reins create a boundary, and the horse works with in them - what's lacking is the dynamics of the hh, but honestly, that's missing in the trot too. If the horse is constantly pushing the head and neck out to balance itself, chances are, it's not working correctly behind. I just today ran across a video of Phillippe Karl - I'll attach it if I find it - he was working through very collected canter movements - the head and neck of the horse were barely moving - certainly not extending out and back.
Edited to add - here's a video that shows the canter - not telescoping out and back- but rather moving through the topline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEytZ9WGvWI

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:55 pm

Yes, I don't like using fixed SR canter for some horses.

I view this sort of like a flah or whip. I have all of these tools but some horse benefit more than others based on the confo flaws, bad habits, baggage, etc.

As any good german classical student would, I put every horse in straight side reins.....these days, I prefer sliding/triangle balancing side reins that don't go under the chest but stay on each side of the horse. That more closely mimics the rider hands in my opinion.

My very very prone to BTV horse doesn't go in any side reins, instead I use flexions for in hand work and use longing as a warmup where he stretches down and has freedom.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby khall » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:00 pm

I don't use SRs at all anymore. I follow along with some BNT like Karen Rohlf and Manola Mendez and especially Anja Beran who do more work in hand and educating the horse that way, with some lunging especially with the youngsters.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:16 pm

I definitely train canter in side reins agree with Ryeissa on v reins. Also agree with Dresseur on the bascule transferred to the topline to load the hind end.

Still of the opinion that side reins are kinder than hands being more consistent.

Will not engage in the thread when it turns to peta like anti siderein . Am perfectly content that some people don't use them. Am also satisfied that it's not inhumane.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:34 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Will not engage in the thread when it turns to peta like anti siderein . Am perfectly content that some people don't use them. Am also satisfied that it's not inhumane.


I don't think that is happening here...BUT....

To me, it's knowing why you choose to use or not use SR, it has to be a functional reason, not a fad or because a trainer said so. Know how the three (or 4?) types of SR work, and why certain horses need them. Also, should one use a caveson or bit? how far up on the horse does the SR need to go? top ring? is it ok to use a saddle/girth setup? Should I use the longe line over the poll? why or why not? should I use it on the caveson ring?

Side rant: I think people are not taught how to longe well, so there is less benefit to the horse. Most/a lot of horses are NOT RIDDEN FORWARD so any backwards tendency in SRs is magnified and soon you have a very bad practice. I was trained as a younger rider with the USDF german longing manual (not sure what it was called, it's used in the L pgm I htink?) , etc so I had actual lessons on how to longe. I don't see people getting taught how to do it properly, it's sort of assumed that it's easy to do. It's one of the hardest things- so much needs attention to be successful.

So I'd rather see people not use any SR if they can't maintain a proper gait, bend and balance. It's a no win situation. Buy the right tack, pay for some lessons and then go.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby demi » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:40 pm

I’ve also had trainers say not to canter in SR. BUT, my current trainer said I should. She knows the horse well because she rides her. I am fairly sure that adding canter (with SR) to my lunging has increased Rocky’s obedience and her “in front of the legness”. She is getting much steadier in the contact with less of her occasional trying to pull the reins out of my hands (she is an opinionated mare).

If I were as skilled as the trainers that KHall mentioned, I wouldn’t lunge or use SR either. But I am not. The SRs are much more consistent that my own hands so it’s easier for Rocky to understand the connection. My whole lunging session last only 5-10 minutes with the SR attached so really not much canter. I only lunge once a week rhight now, if that.

As an amateur, but not total beginner, I think lunging with SR at canter, can be a valuable tool to help my horse progress. I am planning to video again toward the end of this month for comparison to the last time I videoed in mid March.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Xanthoria » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:57 pm

Agree Ryeissa - I did Pony Club up to A level in the UK and we had to know all about lungeing as a training tool. It's hard to find people who know how to do it here!

Bronto likes to go slow and curled, mostly at canter, so lungeing gives me the opportunity to get him brisk and up. He also needs to understand a steady connection can't be rooted into and SR help with that too. So I think I'll give them a go at canter.

Pretty sure he's seen this video and thinks it looks really relaxing... :lol:

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby khall » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:08 pm

chisamba I did not say no one should use SRs, that is your horse your choice. I don't care. Me personally I do not anymore and I have used the range of all manners of SRs etc in lunging. I do not like what they do to the horses as I work them for many reasons. When I lunge I use most often a caveson, it is a soft caveson with a chain wrapped in leather for padding that forms onto the bridge of the nose. I also have a sereta that is a hard solid nose piece that Rip went in when he was younger and liked to dirt ski me. I use a regular lunge whip. That is it. My mare Gaila does not like the cavesons so she is lunged in a rope halter.

I think you absolutely can work a horse properly without SRs but I do think the in hand work we do makes this an easier endeavor because the horse is more attuned to our body language. At some point I may run into a horse that needs SRs again (I had a giraffe going OTTB g years ago) and I won't have a problem using them again if I need to. I usually work with unhanded horses now for the most part so they don't usually require auxiliary reins for any reasons.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Sue B » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:27 pm

Rudy, my TB, is very upright, modestly ewe-necked, and very prone to btv so I "never" did use sr on him (probably did some during the backing period, but they were long and there just to limit flinging his head to the outside of the circle.) He is a horse who always ducked behind the sr regardless of the type of set-up so it was a no-go.

Tio, my Belgian Sporthorse, has the pretty but thick, arched neck and tends more towards hanging than ducking. He also has a super wicked buck on the lunge. Sidereins wound up being an indispensable tool in his training--teaching respect for the bit as well as limiting his ability to literally drag me across the arena. Even then, though, I waited for him to be balanced enough on the lunge to wtc both directions before using them, and of course, he needed to already understand the concept of "forward." As such, I have no issue with sr being used in canter work.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:58 pm

Xanthoria wrote:Pretty sure he's seen this video and thinks it looks really relaxing... :lol:



hilarious- are they even moving?

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Chisamba » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:22 pm

khall wrote:chisamba I did not say no one should use SRs, that is your horse your choice. I don't care. Me personally I do not anymore and I have used the range of all manners of SRs etc in lunging. I do not like what they do to the horses as I work them for many reasons. When I lunge I use most often a caveson, it is a soft caveson with a chain wrapped in leather for padding that forms onto the bridge of the nose. I also have a sereta that is a hard solid nose piece that Rip went in when he was younger and liked to dirt ski me. I use a regular lunge whip. That is it. My mare Gaila does not like the cavesons so she is lunged in a rope halter.

I think you absolutely can work a horse properly without SRs but I do think the in hand work we do makes this an easier endeavor because the horse is more attuned to our body language. At some point I may run into a horse that needs SRs again (I had a giraffe going OTTB g years ago) and I won't have a problem using them again if I need to. I usually work with unhanded horses now for the most part so they don't usually require auxiliary reins for any reasons.


My comments were not aimed at you. I know from acquaintance here that you use in hand work. I don't believe everyone should use side reins. I just always support my right to use them and not be considered abusive.

Anders Lindgren evaluated both my longing as and my giving a longer lesson when I did the instructors dressage course . I think if you plan to longe you should be trained how, so I agree.

I also use side reins for piaffe in hand. Like Stahleke I use a break away attachment so there is zero risk of injury. I dislike rubber rings in the sidereins.

I set the sidereins to the bit. I do not attach the line to the bit not over the poll. That's what a cavesson is for. I attach the reins middle ring. Or v rein to and bottom. I use the size of the circle and inside flexion to change the shape of the horse. Big circle long and low, medium circle working gains, small circle uphill, volte. Just one or two at a time. Collection.

Tempo a priority as with riding. Easier to work back to front, especially when you don't always have eyes on the ground. For me this works.

I don't longe green horses for more than a month. I don't necessarily want them too strong and fit first time I get on, but I do longe with more expectations as horses progress

Again, what I do. So long as its ethical anyone can freely follow the method they prefer

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:28 pm

I am not an expert, but share this recent "discovery" for correcting the BTV tendency on the lunge:

Use your leading hand on the lunge line to show the horse to way to forward down and out by taking that hand clearly forward of the horse's mouth. The visual clue helps the horse follow the hand. I "discovered" this after the Susanne von Dietz clinic where she pointed out that horses can see if our hands are "giving" or "taking" rein. It's so freakin simple that it seems idiotic to say this (and I apologize if you read this and think duh, what an idiot that she didn't know this!).

I can now easily send Em into a long and low frame on the lunge at will in any gait. It used to be a bit of a tricky maneuver.

With this particular horse and her stage of training, I do not use side reins (I use a spanish type cavesson) but I am not against vienna/sliding side reins for teaching parameters and acceptance at canter.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Kyra's Mom » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:49 am

I currently don't use side reins. #1 one...I have trouble finding suitable reins. Kyra is on the lighter side. I absolutely detest the ones with donuts...bouncing on their mouths. The ones I have now which are old do have some (mostly stretched out elastic) but are lighter and not so invasive.
Kyra is pretty much the opposite of Baby Bronto in build.

I have lunged canter in SR. I do keep the canter periods short (1-2 mi) and take them off after each set so she can stretch. I don't think they are inherently evil, I just have learned some more tools that go with in-hand work that address posture and alignment. Alignment seems to be the biggest issue with Kyra. It does take work to address sans SR--it isn't casual exercise for either of us. However, when Kyra gets straight and aligned, her posture just falls into a lovely arc from hind feet to nose. This spring I was even able to get transitions from nice forward working canter to some collection back to WC and for the most part, her canter-walk transitions have been lovely. Mind you, she has had very little and sporadic work for the last 3 years. Prior to that we were a whisker away from second level (then my body broke :P ). This spring, I have been riding her about 98% at walk due to my back. One day I was testing a new bit and wanted to see her reaction in trot and canter so gritted my teeth and did it. To (hopefully) save my back, I asked for canter from the walk and walk from the canter. Those were probably the 2 nicest walk to canters she has given me. If the lunging work wasn't helping, there is no way she could have done them cold turkey that well. They were never that good before and were the reason (that and sitting the medium trot with my tailbone spur :shock: ) we hadn't make our debut at second.

I have done a lot of online work with Karen Rolhf and have been finding the exercises quite helpful and have found that I don't need the SR but as I said, I am not 'allergic' to them, even at canter.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby StraightForward » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:42 am

My experience comports with Dresseur and Ryiessa. I have both Vienna and Lauffer sliding reins. I think the Vienna (between the legs attachment) could work for some conformations. However, I bought the Lauffers because I like that with the V the horse has some say in where to meet the connection, within limits. Also, Annabelle occasionally gets acrobatic on the lunge and I was afraid she was going to hook a foot into the Vienna rein.

I started with the reins on the side rings of the cavesson, but now that she is more educated, I am working with them attached to a snaffle (an HS NovoContact, so a thicker, flatter bit). Like Dresseur, I don't use long stints of canter. My main goal in the lunging work in SRs is to get A engaging in the trot, and developing better T/C transitions, so I usually don't even do a full circle of canter, unless she is a little sucked back and needs to be driven forward.

I would love to get lessons in lunging. I've got Manolo's DVDs, and do some lunging in that style as well, though until recently I only had a flexible-nose caveson and couldn't attain very good flexion with it.
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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby khall » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:53 pm

I need to ask this question re side reins: Do you feel they act on the horse's bar in the mouth instead of the corners?

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:17 pm

They sure can, but imo that's why it's important to set them (height on turrets and length) appropriate to the horse's conformation, level of training etc.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby khall » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:26 pm

Dresseur yes, and that is one of my biggest beefs about SRs and their ilk and how often they are incorrectly used.

Another question: do any of you or have any of you used a chambon while lunging?

I'm just wondering if the chambon would be more appropriate for this instance for Baby Bronto.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Dresseur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:06 pm

Imo, I'm not a fan of the chambon. They're better than the de Gogue or Pessoa, but they are still designed to "show a horse the way to the ground" so I don't think that it would be appropriate for Baby Bronto, who needs to stay off his forehand and gain strength in his topline through the proper use of the hind legs so that he's not pulling through contact. IMO, (caveat: I've never seen him or video of him), I'd want him to learn to work within boundaries and would personally be using traditional SR, lots and lots of transitions and in hand work to get him to use his hind, not use his whole neck and forehand as leverage against the rider.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Xanthoria » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:26 pm

Actually I did use a chambon 2 years ago to show Baby Bronto he can reach down and out, vs be hollow. But now, he's past that stage as you say Dresseur, as he's finding slow and low too cozy :lol: I have Vienna reins and they'd be disastrous for him, obviously.

I do a lot of transitions that help, and he does a nice walk/canter on the lunge, and even a rein back/trot sometimes. In hand we do some shoulder fore and leg yield too, lots of rein back and TOF.

I do think I could raise the reins up - I have had them fairly loose (lightweight, elastic ones) and attached 3 rings down from the top of the surcingle. (they attach to a Happy Mouth plastic bit, and my lunge line goes to a rope halter with a loose sliding ring at the chin which slides round towards me)

I'll try that, and piedmont's suggestion to use the leading hand to guide the head forwards. I do clicker train those moments when he's really engaged behind and his head is slightly in front of vertical and reaching out.

Thanks for the tips!

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:05 pm

khall wrote:I need to ask this question re side reins: Do you feel they act on the horse's bar in the mouth instead of the corners?


Depends on how you hook them up.

99%- Most people use the girth under the saddle flap, and absolutely yes this works "down". This is one of the reasons I don't like this setup. People don't think about what they are doing here, IMHO. It works against what you are trying to achieve.

Otherwise, no, if you hook them up on a surcingle it more closely mimics the rider's hand posture and works UP on the bars.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby Chisamba » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:10 am

I find side reins help more with horses that curl behind the contact than with those that lean.

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Re: Spinoff: cantering on the lunge

Postby kande50 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:21 am

I think there probably is considerable merit to the idea that side reins can be easier on a horse than some riders' hands--depending how the side reins are adjusted, how long he's expected to work in them, and what the rider's hands are like.

I seldom use side reins simply because up until I retired I never felt I had enough time to ride, so didn't want to spend any more of it on the ground than necessary to get the horse ready to back--and fortunately, did had the sense not to start right out lungeing greenies in side reins. Looking back, that was probably a very good decision, because I didn't really know what I was trying to achieve by lunging in side reins, so probably would have just taught my horses the opposite of what I would have wanted if I'd known.


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