An interesting out come

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khall
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An interesting out come

Postby khall » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:23 pm

I have a boarder who last year had a bad fall off her mare (TB/Perch that knocked her out cracked her pelvis). They are so mismatched it is not even funny and the owner knows it but is kind of stuck at this point. Bought her as a 5 yr old, older AA rerider. Mare is a moose, owner is a tiny with not much strength and though has ridden for many years did not have much foundation to be working a young horse, especially this particular young horse. Unfortunately the mare is not really that sellable, she was tested and revealed she is PSSM1 and has a history of unsoundness though is fine with heart bar shoe on RF. Paid way too much for this mare.

Anyway, owner has been working this mare mostly in hand and on line for the past year. I really do not want her riding this mare like she was before the accident (with no one here and out in the pasture rather than the arena) and really think it is a poor choice period for her to ride her at all. We have put for the most part all of the lateral work on her, with some not totally confirmed due to owner not fully having understanding or having a feel for it. It has taken a year to get to this point with the 2 of them. My thought is, that the owner needs to have control over this mare's feet and all four corners, which is what lateral work does to have any hope of being successful with this horse (the owner would re home if she found the right new owner, but not sure what kind of price. When I've pushed her, the price she quoted was unreasonable) Since we have gotten this mare pretty good in hand, I've put the owner back up with me right there to get the feel of the lateral work. Sometimes I just work the mare in hand with rider up, sometimes I turn mare over to the rider. What has really been the most interesting part about all of this, is that this mare who really did not have any understanding about lateral work US before, now just with the in hand work can pretty much do exactly what we've done from the ground, now transferred to US. This with a rider still trying to figure the aids out, horse is quite easily now showing her understanding of the aids. I will probably get back on the mare to see what she feels like. I can ride her ok, but she is not my favorite because she is a pretty physical ride. She is big (16.1 probably 1400 lbs at the least, and long as a bus) and not the most light footed of horses. At least she turns now! She did not even do that when she first came.


These results really confirm my feelings on in hand work and why Mark was so adamant about doing this for the horse. I can so see the value of this work to build that understanding of the aids in the horse before the rider even sets foot in a stirrup. I am definitely pursuing this with my filly in hand, wished I had known this much when Rip was younger, might have gone a bit easier.

Tsavo
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:35 pm

If the owner pulled the trigger on finding another home, should she consider putting the mare with a pro trainer for a few months to flip for the highest price possible and to the best home possible? That's what I would do.

I probably would not have bought my horse had he been with the owner instead of being trained 6 days a week for a few months with a GP trainer. When I first got on him he has contact like butter instead of being trapped under the bit by the owner. I bought him based on that butter contact.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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StraightForward
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby StraightForward » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:19 am

Tough situation. The owner probably doesn't want to hear it, but that is pretty much a giveaway horse unless, as Tsavo says, she puts it with a pro for a while. I did not exactly have people crawling out of the woodwork to buy Pickle as a project horse, and she was a well bred, athletic and sound premium GOV.

It's good that the in-hand is helping her though, and should give a trainer a big headstart if she chooses to go that route.
Keep calm and canter on.

Tsavo
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:50 am

The other thing is given her lameness history, if she stays sound in training that is definitely going to interest potential buyers and may bump the price up. If she can't stay sound in work then I would not give this horse away but either keep her or find a forever home as a companion horse or put her down.

heddylamar
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby heddylamar » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:16 am

khall wrote:I can so see the value of this work to build that understanding of the aids in the horse before the rider even sets foot in a stirrup. I am definitely pursuing this with my filly in hand, wished I had known this much when Rip was younger, might have gone a bit easier.


Since Maia was in TN with my mom, I had her find someone to start her. She found a Buck Brannaman acolyte who did the most outstanding in hand work with Maia. At 3 months under saddle, she was doing turns on fore hand and haunches, leg yield, haunches in ... when I introduced shoulder in, it took a few tries, and she got it -- all of those aids were familiar.

I wish I'd had the same opportunity with Anzia (who's prone to exploding), but I'm teaching her now :P

khall
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby khall » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:25 am

Well around here trainers are very expensive and hard to find that you would trust. Owner almost sent her back to where she got her from (not a good place, though shows FEI dressage, mare was thin and feet were BAD which is why she was lame, yes she was lame when she got here) to sell her, then backed out. Hated to send her there because she does genuinely like the mare and has really enjoyed learning the in hand stuff with her. Mare is kind and pretty easy to work in hand even though she is a large mare. What she would put in training she would not get back out of her probably. Mare with her history is not really worth much as most of you have noted. Not worth breeding because of the PSSM (50% chance of passing it on) not a field hunter possibility, just too reactive for that. Ok mover but not the easiest horse to ride and has been known to bolt (which is how owner got hurt, I saw the entire thing, scary when owner hit the ground and did not move) though I can stop her, owner cannot. Sigh. Owner feels responsible for big mare and I can understand that. She is a sweet mare even though they are not well matched.

This post though was more about how the in hand training transfers to US so well. I've just been blown away by how easy this mare finds the lateral work (just at the walk right now) compared to how she was before all of this work was done. It is even transferring to lunging. Today I worked her on the lunge and she is carrying herself so much better, more engaged and her canter strike offs are sooo much better than they were. She cannot sustain it for long but man what a difference. This is with no SRs, she would just lay on them if we put them on her. Has been very interesting to work with this mare. I like her kindness, but am not fond of her athletic ability. She is like steering a bus. This has just been a fun training side note. A different kind of horse for me, I do have a bias against the draft crosses, not my thing. Though I did have one come in to sell years ago who was a sweet boy, found a home quickly. Easy to ride, not the flashiest horse, but very sweet and kind.

heddy, this work in hand is much different than the NH brand. If you have ever seen what Anja Beran does or what Nuno Olivera did, that is the style of WIH I do. I spent over 9 yrs working with Mark Russell (who we tragically lost in 2016 to a riding accident) learning this very detailed type of work. I love teaching the horses this, it is so beneficial to them.

Tsavo
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:00 am

I agree if you do the type of groundwork (and lunging) that uses the same principles of carriage and contact as riding then it will transfer as it does with my horse. I also agree that other types of groundwork which seem aimed at just obedience do not.

But it can jump the rails as it did with that woman I mentioned who taught her horse most/all the movements up through and including GP from the ground. Then a GP trainer got on and had nothing to work with. And the owner didn't automatically ride above the level she was at to begin with. The proof is in the pudding.

piedmontfields
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:53 pm

Interesting khall. It makes sense to me that the in hand work is helping overall, as it requires both balance and mental focus from the horse.

Not quite the same situation as this mare, but my mare was nearly given up as "untrainable" "cannot canter" by some of the first dressage trainers in her life (ages 4-7). She ended up as a last resort with someone who does a lot of in hand work and proceeded very slowly to ridden work (and managed her PSSM). I think this process helped her 1. realize she could be worked without discomfort and 2. learn that people can be trustworthy. I felt this training in her when I first put her on the lunge and did simple in hand things. She had a very soft response which was clearly part of her education.

p.s. I hate being around poor horse-rider matches. If you are friends with the person, it is very challenging to get them to think straight about reality and the amount of work necessary to have a good outcome.
Last edited by piedmontfields on Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

khall
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby khall » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:08 pm

Tsavo where on earth did you come up with we were going to teach this mare GP in hand? For me, in hand work compliments the ridden work. Specifically with this mare it is making her easier to ride as evidence with just the bit of US work we have done with her and her owner recently. We are using lunging and in hand work to teach this mare how to carry herself and be more engaged and yes for me the proof is that this owner who is a novice at lateral work can get on and with instruction get SI or HI at the walk with this horse when she could not do this at all before. Is it perfect? No, but it is the rider at fault not the mare's understanding.

We are addressing her carriage with specific in hand exercises to get her lighter on the forehand to make her easier to RIDE. Specifically mobilizing her shoulders, changing flexion, changing bend through SI to renvere etc, activating the hind legs and even starting the beginnings of Spanish Walk. Heck this owner could not even WTC this mare much less do even a 2nd level test and GP would never be in the books for these two. What I am hoping to accomplish though is so the owner can ride this horse more safely, period. Being able to bend the horse using lateral work and have control over the four corners/feet means in my book you have better control period over the horse.

piedmont, yes I am friends, she is my boarder and I have known her for many years. Actually it has been rather rewarding to see the changes in both horse and owner in this mix. They will never be a good match for many reasons, but owner definitely feels a sense of responsibility for this mare, she bought her on her own and only has herself to look to in this mismatch. I respect her for her wanting what is best for this mare and knowing giving her away or even selling her for not much money may not be in this mare's best interest with this mare's medical history. I also respect the fact that this owner is putting in the work to learn and understand how better to work with this mare. Owner is really enjoying this mare even though she at this point right now is "riding" her at the walk only and on a line at that to keep her safe. I don't know if they will ever get very far with riding per se, but they have both changed tremendously since she bought the horse and especially over the last year.

kande50
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby kande50 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:17 pm

khall wrote:Owner is really enjoying this mare even though she at this point right now is "riding" her at the walk only and on a line at that to keep her safe. I don't know if they will ever get very far with riding per se, but they have both changed tremendously since she bought the horse and especially over the last year.


Instead of thinking of it as they'll likely never get very far maybe everyone should be looking at it as she's on *her* own individual journey, because after all, who wants to get "further" if the journey then becomes more about fear, injuries, and misery for both horse and rider?

If the owner is enjoying what she's doing and isn't making her horse's life more miserable by doing it, then IMO, she's getting as far as she needs to get.

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Re: An interesting out come

Postby Tsavo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:34 pm

Khall i did not think you or anyone else would be trying to teach everything including GP from the ground. I am still technically in shock that the woman I mentioned tried to make an FEI horse from the ground alone as she was not riding or training at that level from the saddle.

My point in mentioning that other woman was you can do a certain amount from the ground but it might not translate to under saddle work as in that other case. And certainly it isn't going to transform the rider. In the case of that other woman, it has to be the case that her riding would have been further alone had she not been working all that time from the ground. All that time could have been spent wetting saddle pads.

ETA: I am not talking about walk work where is sounds like you have helped both the horse and this rider. I am talking T/C riding. That's where things get lost in translation with both the horse and rider per that one example.

khall
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Re: An interesting out come

Postby khall » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:02 pm

Tsavo I agree for the most part, I do think you can teach the horse a good bit from the ground that does translate very well US for the horse with a rider who knows what they are doing all the way up to and including much of the GP movements. Does it mean that would translate into riding a GP test successfully? IMO no, need seat in the saddle as well, but the in hand work can and does very much compliment the ridden work.

I do not think it translates well for the rider, though there is better understanding of the movements but again seat in the saddle with competent instruction hopefully on a horse that knows what they are doing is invaluable.

I actually use in hand and US work the most with my horses but also feel that lunging (i.e. on line) can be very valuable in some cases and liberty is where the truth is spoken very often. I don't do as much of liberty work as I would like, I am hoping with Cedar's direction to do more. When I have done it in the past (actually Gaila is pretty fun to do liberty work with) I have really enjoyed it. Karen R is great for this type of work as well and yes it is real work if done properly.

I also do in hand work at the trot (not quite yet at the canter but it can be done) including lateral work. Great work out for me, interesting to see what I can do from the ground, definitely more difficult for me in hand than US.


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