Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

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Rosie B
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Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Rosie B » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:00 pm

I am going to go out on a limb here and post some unpopular/controversial opinions. Please chime in if you agree/disagree.

Anyone who reads the classics knows that the contact should be light. This is an ideal. What is often missed however is that sometimes (often?) in order for the contact to be light it first has to be heavier. The horse has to be truly connected and pushing into the bridle before you can be lighter in the contact. If you are always striving for a light contact, unless you are *inordinately* skilled, you end up not providing the contact the horse needs to connect. This can completely derail any progress. I can probably count over 10 people I know personally who have failed to make progress over the years because they cling to this ideal as the gospel and treat it as a requirement rather than what it really is - an ideal. I have been guilty of this myself.

IFOTL on the other hand is NOT an ideal. It is part of the foundation upon which good dressage work is built. I know I sound like someone who has just found Jesus, but it's the truth. Interestingly, IME when your horse first starts going truly IFOTL, if your contact is correct, you can feel the power pushing into your hand adding weight to the contact because the horse is *taking you*. PRECIOUS few horses I see around here locally are truly IFOTL. It's usually only the pro horses that are powering along the way they need to. I include myself in this as well - it's only this year that I'm discovering how to work with Bliss to get him IFOTL.

I would say that these are two of the major things that I see that limit horse and rider progress. I know there are lots more things, but these are the main two that has limited/slowed my progress over the past 5 years with Bliss.

Thoughts?

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby StraightForward » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:51 pm

I agree, but I'll add that contact is so variable between horses. I often have a very firm contact with Annabelle. If I didn't, she would just go along strung out like the western pleasure horse her daddy's genetics bestowed up on her. It seems like there is a lot of conflation of firm contact, backward hand and riding BTV going towards rollkur. Some horses need firm contact and it can be done with a forward hand, keeping the horse IFV. OTOH, with Susan's Kyra, contact is much lighter; that is partly because she is more advanced, but I think much of it is her 1/2 Andalusian breeding. I haven't ridden other Andalusians, but rode a lot of Arabians when I was a teen, and looking back, can't imagine any of them needing a heavy contact to accomplish anything productive.

Still working on IFOTLY, so I'll get back to you on that, but have had some lightbulb moments lately about its importance. ;)
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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:01 pm

I don't think these are controversial points! I agree completely.

The feel of contact can be a really weird thing to learn, because horses and people have preferences. Also, the feel can change as the horse takes on new challenges and builds the strength to do them.

I think for many amateurs the feel of a horse "taking" you feels scary and out of control (and perhaps on some horses it is!). Hence, there are many with the bad habit of shutting down the horse's power (front to back riding). Honestly, as someone with a less than fancy and small horse with more modest gaits, it is a lot easier mentally to always be thinking/riding "more power, please" on a horse who is not at all scary to me when she goes.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby khall » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:17 pm

I do think a bit differently on IFOTL but agree on contact with the same thoughts as SF it is horse dependent and can be ride dependent! From day to day.

As for IFOTL, hmm for me I look to balance of the horse first and foremost. Sending a horse who is already on their forehand more forward is not the answer in my book. I think more about activity and liveliness than forward. Now I do say there are times with certain horses that I do chase them forward. For those energy conservationist:) But I have been helping/working with a horse whose basic training was forward and then hold them up. She is a TB/Perch with natural inclination to be heavy in the front, sending that horse forward would not be in her best interest in her development, yet she needs to be more active behind so she can engage. So for me it is more about balance and engagement usually and is horse dependent.

Was just talking with the trainer who has Gaila, she was saying she needed to be more forward and was using the lunging to help her with this. But what this trainer has not seen or dealt with much with Gaila is that earlier years (Rip too, and can still be hairy with him!) if you just pushed her forward when she was fit farting about you might just get dirt skied. I don't like being drug around so I had to be more diplomatic in my addressing of this. Can I say again how much I love my Lusitano filly? She is way easier to lunge than either of the WBs ever were!!

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby StraightForward » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:40 pm

khall wrote:As for IFOTL, hmm for me I look to balance of the horse first and foremost. Sending a horse who is already on their forehand more forward is not the answer in my book. I think more about activity and liveliness than forward. Now I do say there are times with certain horses that I do chase them forward. For those energy conservationist:) But I have been helping/working with a horse whose basic training was forward and then hold them up. She is a TB/Perch with natural inclination to be heavy in the front, sending that horse forward would not be in her best interest in her development, yet she needs to be more active behind so she can engage. So for me it is more about balance and engagement usually and is horse dependent.


IFOTL and forward are definitely related, but maybe a distinction can be drawn there too? A horse could be very forward-thinking, but still tune out the leg (e.g. for a lateral movement request) whereas another horse might not appear to be very forward, but is very tuned to the leg and will move sideways/forward quickly and obediently when the leg is applied. Eventually, IFOTL and forward will merge, but some horses might need to be slowed down to get tuned into the leg, and others need to be pushed out more forward to get the legs unstuck.

One other thought on contact - contact can be firm and still be lively/elastic. A couple lessons ago, my instructor called me out for being too static in the contact. The lesson before, she was having me ride a little more round and into the contact, and I took it too far and was being rigid. Now she has me thinking of being a little more "playful" in the contact, so even though it's firm most of the time, I am not setting my hands, and make lots of small adjustments, see if I can push the reins forward an inch here and there, counterflex, etc. which keeps us from pulling at each other.
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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby tlkidding » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:23 pm

I agree!
Unless you have an insanely talented horse, you will need to help the horse change their balance at times through their training progression, and all of those horses will need some change in the level of contact/weight in the hand to move their balance point further back. As you ask for the change in balance (i.e., increasing collection), their lack of strength will need additional support from all of the rider's aids, hand included.

My trainer is always after me to raise the bar gradually (try to find lightness) until I find the point at which my horse can't hold his balance then help him out there with more support from the circle of aids or lower the bar slightly to maintain a lighter contact. Basically, get the engagement and collection we want at that moment and raise the poll until he can't maintain the level of collection, then lower the poll slightly to keep the lightness + collection. If we are adding to the degree of collection , we have to let the poll come down a bit until he builds strength.

It took me a while to figure out IFOTL. 8-)
I think being in front of the leg is like the most important basic for a horse to have. It doesn't mean running the horse off its feet, nor do you always have to fix it by going faster at the gait you are in. I'll often go back to a walk and fix it there with walk, ask for quicker or bigger walk, then trot off if the horse is not responsive. Or for a more educated horse, some collected walk into half steps to get a quicker reaction from the hind legs when my legs are put on.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby khall » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:56 pm

SF yes exactly. So maybe instead of IFOTL we should say responsive to the "driving" or activation aids? The horse must be responsive and attentive (or like I had said with Rip dialed in) but not necessarily running off their legs (though some we do need to go over tempo at times to get that responsiveness).

It really is horse dependent and what they find difficult. I can certainly agree TK about stepping up what we are asking seeing where it becomes a bit of a problem to the horse and then dialing it back a bit in order not to over face them. It is so much about feeling what is happening with the horse.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Tsavo » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:58 pm

In my opinion, a person has to be quite skilled and a horse has to be quite skilled to go correctly on a very light contact. You have to string the bow and that is very hard to do with a very light contact. Some proponents of thread-like contact do not appear to be concerned about where the horse's back is.

I have played around with titratng how much I have in my hand and how that ramifies. To date I have never found success by coming at it from a position of being too light. The only way I found right was getting enough in my hand to then be able to shed some portion.

I don't think the amount is the main thing. It is the balance between what the horse takes forward correctly and what the rider maintains in terms of no backward hand whatsoever at any time. In my opinion, it is much easier to extinguish backward hand when there is more than a thread in your hand. But I don't doubt expert riders can do it.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Rosie B wrote:I IFOTL on the other hand is NOT an ideal. It is part of the foundation upon which good dressage work is built. I know I sound like someone who has just found Jesus, but it's the truth. Interestingly, IME when your horse first starts going truly IFOTL, if your contact is correct, you can feel the power pushing into your hand adding weight to the contact because the horse is *taking you*.


Another realization I've had in the last couple of years: It is only when your horse is truly in front of the leg that the contact *can* be correct (and you feel the powerful flow of the hinds through your hands).

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Flight » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:35 pm

I'm going to disagree :)
I spent 8 years getting my horse into the contact so I could 'feel a weight in my hands', have them 'push into my hands' etc. I was waiting for this lightness that was meant to come. Instead, I was forever pushing my horse to be in front of my leg, chasing it to go and having more of a dead feeling on my hands.
I will concur that perhaps I wasn't doing it right.

However, to have a light contact yes the horse needs to be IFOTL, responsive and understand the rein aids, be engaged, over the back and reaching for the contact. But a contact can be simply the weight of the reins and a bit in it's mouth. You don't have to have the feeling of the horse pushing on the bit, because that is like having an aid stuck on.
I have ridden a horse trained this way, and at first I couldn't ride it. I was saying there's no connection, but there was it's just different. I think it takes longer for a horse to become accomplished on the lighter contact.

I watched the coolest stuff I've seen in a long while the other day. A girl was riding her horse at the clinic bareback and in a neck rope. And she was a slender little thing, so you could see all of what the horse was doing (ie no saddle/saddlecloth to get in the way). When she did some of the exercises, getting her horse to engage it's hind end, gave a little half halt on the neck rope (and released after), the horse rounded it's back, arched it's neck out from lifted shoulders and chewed/relaxed it's jaw.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:15 pm

piedmontfields wrote:
Another realization I've had in the last couple of years: It is only when your horse is truly in front of the leg that the contact *can* be correct (and you feel the powerful flow of the hinds through your hands).


I understand this, and would also add part of what Tsavo said:

Tsavo wrote:In my opinion, a person has to be quite skilled and a horse has to be quite skilled to go correctly on a very light ...


What I have found is that by the time my horse needs correction because he is no longer IFOTL, I have to give a fairly sharp correction. The problem is that it takes a lot of skill and coordination to balance the sharp forward correction with the light rein contact. It’s a very refined correction IMHO. I can’t do it well, so I try not to get in the situation where I need to do it. I fail often...

This vid is on YouTube so I think it’s ok to repost. I believe it shows what happens when a horse’s regular rider continually allowed the horse to get BTL and the kind of correction necessary to fix it. I think EH is a spectacularly good horseman even though the peanut gallery on the YOuTube vid thinks otherwise ;)

(I didnt copy the link beforehand so I will post this and add the link after I find it...)

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:16 pm


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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:28 pm

So, I think, unless the horse is IFOTL, it is not possible to get that light, ideal contact that we are talking about. Not that we need the BEST “professional quality” IFOTL response, but we definitely need a GOOD IFOTL response.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:47 pm

I'm going to tentatively agree With flight, I think it's the combination of forward energy and not letting the horse tip over on the forehand and run with the front legs. I spent my whole time getting the horse forward where I lost the engagement. I never was taught the left of the sternum and thoracic sling. Maybe I was just dense and that is a common assumption when we ride dressage, for whatever reason my old instructors never articulated the balance between Hind and front. I'm sure it also depends on the horse I have a very eager horse that responds very quickly to forward aids, but that doesn't mean he's ahead of the leg. He easily tips and goes behind the bit

So yes the contact always has to be going forward into the hand, but the way that the horse's body is managed is to contain all parts of the horse. So I think about keeping the withers up even on a very green horse, just as much as I think about straightness and hind leg engagement. You can't over blow the hind end at the expense of the rest of the horse. Everything in moderation!

Tempo is first in the training Pyramid for a reason, and this is exactly what it means you can't go to quick. once the horse has an ideal speed whether you want to call it Tempo or rhythm, then they can relax over the back and go into the hand. Also if you can't regulate the stride you're going to have a really hard time breaking through to collection and extension. Riding with too much leg is the reason I could never have collection I wasn't taught to manage it.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:24 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
You can't over blow the hind end at the expense of the rest of the horse. Everything in moderation!


Which is likely why the term balance keeps coming up...

I haven't actually tried to create collection using the standard aids so don't fully understand exactly how that needs to be done, but from what I've been able to gather it's a balance between driving the horse forward and blocking him in certain ways that teach him how to lighten his front end.

The problem is that learning how exactly to block/hh/allow isn't an easy skill to acquire, and has been made even more difficult now that so many are looking for something other than the kind of collection that involves lifting the withers. So first we have to sort through the instruction that's available, and then we have to find the time and resources to actually learn how to teach a horse to collect.


....then they can relax over the back and go into the hand. Also if you can't regulate the stride you're going to have a really hard time breaking through to collection and extension.


The horse has to relax in some ways, but maintain the muscular tension in others, which is probably why so many settle for constant tension, because it's so much easier to achieve than that delicate balance?

Riding with too much leg is the reason I could never have collection I wasn't taught to manage it.


Do you mean too much leg that pushed the horse over tempo and onto the forehand, or something else?

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:41 pm

demi wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wIeW1YoWZM#


I don't think it's either necessary nor wise to punish the horse because he's been previously taught to hang back, so would definitely favor taking more time to retrain him much more gradually.

The problem with harsh "corrections", which are actually punishment, is that punishment, over time, suppresses behavior, so retraining using punishment just adds to the body of punishment that the horse experiences. The more punishment he experiences, the more suppression, and the more suppressed the horse becomes the harder it is to get cooperation, and cooperation is what most trainers actually want.

Suppression leads to learned helplessness over time, although most horses never actually get to helplessness. But as a horse becomes more suppressed he becomes less responsive, which I don't think is anything any trainer wants.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Chisamba » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:28 am

Practically, riding differs from horse to horse. Riding is easy, riding well is not. However , I can confidently state that some things you have to feel and accomplish to understand and even then, as you feel and accomplish them more often, you understand more and better. We probably cannot learn to ride well in a life time, which is why we try to borrow wisdom from the generations that have been expanding their knowledge before us.

That said, if you ride a horse into contact and cannot get balance and lightness, you did not do it right.

Possibly and probably if you ride with balance before forward, and cannot get the forward, you didn't do it right.

Make no mistake, you can go up the levels and win, and even become a judge, without ever having trained a horse from green to grand prix, and indeed without ever having learned how to improve a horses gaits or balance.

Personally I started dressage faking it, riding in a head set, riding lateral work that scored well enough but did not improve balance or expression of gaits. So I speak from experience. You can ride up through the levels without having a through contact, without feeling the back carry, without riding the shoulders uphill and still win.

However, once you feel a real connection, a horse truly on the aids, the horse that lightens itself when forward, and remains responsive to the leg, then you realize how fake you were, and it can be such an enlightening experience you feel like you ruined every horse you rode til that moment.

Then you have to get their consistently enough to know your method works for you and is repeatable from horse to horse.

I do not know if Kimba will be able to take me to upper level work, but I do know I have trained her better than Sunstorm, my first GP horse, or Karoo,(fourth level) , or Rose ( PSG) or Kea, who just made fourth bit was my biggest teacher. Kea was a great teacher because she was strong and heavy and she taught me lightness through forward . Its easy to get a horse light, especially certain breeds, and responsive to the leg, but forward into lightness is not easy but to my experience, superior.

It takes a lot of transitions to bring balance and lightness to a rushing horse, BUT only the right kind of transitions. Which you have to feel to recognize. And when you feel it you realize how many thousands of wrong transitions you rode.

So it is that discussing on Ddbb, while interesting and enlightening, just cannot explain or enlighten.

Be fair to your horse and enjoy your ride.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Chisamba » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:57 am

I have a friend, now retired, who represented her country, rodee many many horses through FEI levels, and had clients with nice horses. We were at a show together and she got her score sheet and laughed out loud. I asked what was funny. She showed me her score which was eighty. She said, (horse) is not connected, not on the aids, and exhausting to ride scored 80, and (horse b) is supple, responsive, on the aids and a joy to ride got this, she handed me her second test and it was mid sixties. The same rider. The difference? Flashy leg action.

Anyway while thinking about this thread that came to mind so I thought I'd share.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:56 am

Chisamba wrote:I have a friend, now retired, who represented her country, rodee many many horses through FEI levels, and had clients with nice horses. We were at a show together and she got her score sheet and laughed out loud. I asked what was funny. She showed me her score which was eighty. She said, (horse) is not connected, not on the aids, and exhausting to ride scored 80, and (horse b) is supple, responsive, on the aids and a joy to ride got this, she handed me her second test and it was mid sixties. The same rider. The difference? Flashy leg action.

Anyway while thinking about this thread that came to mind so I thought I'd share.


IMO, this is important information for anyone who doesn't really want to compromise, but wants to learn how to do "the real thing". Because if we use up all our resources learning how to do the "wrong" thing, then it's all gone when/if we finally realize we were on the wrong path.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:38 pm

Chisamba wrote:So it is that discussing on Ddbb, while interesting and enlightening, just cannot explain or enlighten.


Exactly so. While an instructor can try to guide you and even produce the right reaction in your horse for you to feel, everyone still has to figure it out within their own bodies. I was shown the correct reaction too many times to count and it is still taking years to consistently produce it myself. When I think back, the only real pay dirt essential skill I was directly taught is one type of HH. Everything else I had to invent for myself. This is a game of millimeters and ounces. It takes isometrics to operatic levels and there is nothing else in life that can prepare you.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:23 pm

Flight wrote:I'm going to disagree :) ....

However, to have a light contact yes the horse needs to be IFOTL, responsive and understand the rein aids, be engaged, over the back and reaching for the contact. But a contact can be simply the weight of the reins and a bit in it's mouth. You don't have to have the feeling of the horse pushing on the bit, because that is like having an aid stuck on.


I like this description of an aid "stuck on." Maybe because of past horses or me, contact that is too light and inconsistent has been much more of a problem *for me* than getting into a stuck contact. I have ridden horses that seem used to that stuck pushing feeling, and it is not the feeling I want.

Also, I don't think being in front of the leg involves any running or rushing. That is simply a speed evasion.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:44 pm

I'm not so sure that the strength of the contact is a huge factor as long as it stays within certain parameters, because if it gets too strong I think the horse has to push too hard against it, and the only way he can do that is to stiffen his body, which blocks him from developing the flexibility he needs.

Not to mention that if he's experiencing too much pressure on his mouth then that's what his attention is going to be on, so then the rider has to go to stronger aids for him to be able to perceive them.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:53 pm

kande50 wrote:Not to mention that if he's experiencing too much pressure on his mouth then that's what his attention is going to be on, so then the rider has to go to stronger aids for him to be able to perceive them.


And yet Gal and Totilas had a lot in the hand but rode legs away.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Chisamba » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:53 pm

Flight wrote:I'm going to disagree :)
However, to have a light contact yes the horse needs to be IFOTL, responsive and understand the rein aids, be engaged, over the back and reaching for the contact. But a contact can be simply the weight of the reins and a bit in it's mouth. You don't have to have the feeling of the horse pushing on the bit, because that is like having an aid stuck on.


lightness comes from the horse, not the rider. Most horses i have seen or ridden that were supposed to be light, were absolutely not in front of the leg, nor were they through or over the back. I am not saying it is impossible, because there may be some one out there good enough to do so, but I have not seen in, neither in video nor in real life and for some time i searched for it like the holy grail.

So i am going to disagree with you, the horse should not push into the bit, i do not like that term, the horse should reach for the bit and when it finds it, should then lighten to it, only when a horse will lighten to the bit can you ride the hind end under and the shoulder up, if the horse does not lighten to the bit, then it just pushes the bit further harder farther and does not change its balance,

I ride the horse forward to the bit, and then when the horse meets the bit it learns to lighten and chew, it is this process that allows the rider to connect the horse and shift the balance to the hind and ride the front shoulder up, yes, there may be times when the rider has to tolerate some heaviness, but the goal should be to soften the hard rein and encourage contact in the light rein until the horse takes a light contact in each rein and shares the responsibility of maintaining that contact with the rider.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Chisamba » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:56 pm

Tsavo wrote:
kande50 wrote:Not to mention that if he's experiencing too much pressure on his mouth then that's what his attention is going to be on, so then the rider has to go to stronger aids for him to be able to perceive them.


And yet Gal and Totilas had a lot in the hand but rode legs away.


i disagree, Gal rode Totilas into such a held hand that the horse softened, and would never attempt to move the hand, so that he could be still and light in his hand. Gals aids, on the completed horse, were light and subtle, proving that lightness is not automatically correct. however, heaviness is not either, ( for example
Laura Bechtolsheimer)

i do agree with the original premise that when you work on the foundation, it is not immediately ideal

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby musical comedy » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:21 pm

If a horse is using it’s hind end with energy, and that energy is unblocked and coming over the back through the neck and to
the bit, it will be felt in the contact. Various things will affect the degree of contact being felt. Not all horses have the
same capacity for power and energy. An average pony, for example, isn’t going to have the power and push as a 16.2 talented
warmblood. Yes, that energy must be recycled back to the haunches via halt halts.

What do you think the purpose of a double bridle is? Surely this will have various opposing views. It is, imo, because the power
comes through so well, that the snaffle isn’t enough and the horse will come too high. The curb lowers the poll.

I probably agree with a portions of each post above, but not entirely. I don’t believe all horses are capable of collection such that
they are going to be correct and light in the hand. Conformation and innate talent play a role.

How you feel about this depends upon what you look to for the goal or standard, whether it be the SRS, bridleless dressage, ODG’s, or current competitive dressage.

Unless you (g) have brought a variety of horses up the levels, you (g) can have an opinion, but it is only based on minimal experience or what you've been told or read or what you think you see.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby khall » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:13 pm

I would add into this discussion that only through correctly applied exercises like lateral work, skipping gait transitions etc can a horse develop the strength and flexibility (unless uber talented) to be in self carriage and light and active and again I do agree with MC here it is horse dependent for sure. We can improve upon each sound horse and get their best ideal but not THE best ideal, that does IMO take innate talent in the horse (and rider).

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:17 pm

musical comedy wrote:Unless you (g) have brought a variety of horses up the levels, you (g) can have an opinion, but it is only based on minimal experience or what you've been told or read or what you think you see.


I was not discussing collection, I was discussing contact. I think we are all talking about the foundations for all horses.
Last edited by Ryeissa on Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Beorn » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:18 pm

Chisamba wrote:However, once you feel a real connection, a horse truly on the aids, the horse that lightens itself when forward, and remains responsive to the leg, then you realize how fake you were, and it can be such an enlightening experience you feel like you ruined every horse you rode til that moment.


So much this.

... especially when my horse is always like 'well, why didn't you just say it that way the FIRST TIME?! :twisted: ' And then raises his expectations accordingly...

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:55 pm

musical comedy wrote:If a horse is using it’s hind end with energy, and that energy is unblocked and coming over the back through the neck and to
the bit, it will be felt in the contact. Various things will affect the degree of contact being felt. Not all horses have the
same capacity for power and energy. An average pony, for example, isn’t going to have the power and push as a 16.2 talented
warmblood. ....Unless you (g) have brought a variety of horses up the levels, you (g) can have an opinion, but it is only based on minimal experience or what you've been told or read or what you think you see.


I agree, on both points. A horse in front of the leg with more modest gaits/power is quite a different animal than a horse bred and developed for international performance!

On the second point, that is why I do wish I were in an area with easy access to very experienced trainers. It truly is worth $$$ (usually well over $200 IME) to lesson with people who know what they are doing and have genuine depth of education and experience to share. I'm really done trying to learn from people who simply have never done it with one horse, much less many times over with a variety of different horses.

Some of you on this board have the gift of working with people with this kind of experience. I am grateful that you share your journey and insights for those of us in the hinterlands!

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Flight » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:21 pm

I
Chisamba wrote:
Flight wrote:I'm going to disagree :)
However, to have a light contact yes the horse needs to be IFOTL, responsive and understand the rein aids, be engaged, over the back and reaching for the contact. But a contact can be simply the weight of the reins and a bit in it's mouth. You don't have to have the feeling of the horse pushing on the bit, because that is like having an aid stuck on.


lightness comes from the horse, not the rider. Most horses i have seen or ridden that were supposed to be light, were absolutely not in front of the leg, nor were they through or over the back. I am not saying it is impossible, because there may be some one out there good enough to do so, but I have not seen in, neither in video nor in real life and for some time i searched for it like the holy grail.

So i am going to disagree with you, the horse should not push into the bit, i do not like that term, the horse should reach for the bit and when it finds it, should then lighten to it, only when a horse will lighten to the bit can you ride the hind end under and the shoulder up, if the horse does not lighten to the bit, then it just pushes the bit further harder farther and does not change its balance,

I ride the horse forward to the bit, and then when the horse meets the bit it learns to lighten and chew, it is this process that allows the rider to connect the horse and shift the balance to the hind and ride the front shoulder up, yes, there may be times when the rider has to tolerate some heaviness, but the goal should be to soften the hard rein and encourage contact in the light rein until the horse takes a light contact in each rein and shares the responsibility of maintaining that contact with the rider.


I actually agree with you. The horse still has to learn and be responsive to the rein aids in order to be light.
To get that feeling of lightness while the horse is over the back in ifotl etc is very difficult, and yes a lot (including myself) can't get. Or if we do, it's fleeting.
It's easier to have a stronger feel on the contact and push them into it.

I don't think either is wrong, I think the important thing is what you said earlier - be fair to your horse and enjoy your ride :)

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Tsavo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:55 pm

And then there is lightness through posing. That is where the horse is stuck of his own volition and not due to the rider.

Without that arcing out to an unblocking hand, there is no cycle.

It's a long road.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:58 pm

Tsavo wrote:
And yet Gal and Totilas had a lot in the hand but rode legs away.


Surely you know how that works? Horses trained the way Gal's horses are trained don't dare ignore the aids, which is one of the many reasons they're so tense.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby musical comedy » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:29 am

Tsavo wrote:And then there is lightness through posing. That is where the horse is stuck of his own volition and not due to the rider.
Without that arcing out to an unblocking hand, there is no cycle.
True, and people can have some success with a posing horse, providing it has a motor and is obedient. Most times when I see those drooping reins that so many swoon over, I think most of the time the horse is posing.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Flight » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:15 am

It's a bit of a feel thing too. When you feel that energy underneath you and the back coming up under your bum and all you need to do is sit lighter to release it, or sit up a bit more to collect it, it's pretty cool.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:02 am

[/quote] True, and people can have some success with a posing horse, providing it has a motor and is obedient.[/quote]

The horses we see in comps who never actually collect could be described as posing horses too, except they've just been taught to pose firmly on their forehands and against the bit. They do have a motor and they are obedient, but they're just not collected, which one would think would be a much higher priority than whether or not the reins were taut?

Most times when I see those drooping reins that so many swoon over, I think most of the time the horse is posing.


What matters to me is not what the reins look like, but how the horse is moving. IOW, who cares how the trainer is getting what they're getting as long as they've somehow managed to communicate what they want to their horse?

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:38 pm

kande50 wrote: What matters to me is not what the reins look like, but how the horse is moving. IOW, who cares how the trainer is getting what they're getting as long as they've somehow managed to communicate what they want to their horse?



That's a bit of a slippery slope, though, isn't it?

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:46 am

Moutaineer wrote:
kande50 wrote: What matters to me is not what the reins look like, but how the horse is moving. IOW, who cares how the trainer is getting what they're getting as long as they've somehow managed to communicate what they want to their horse?



That's a bit of a slippery slope, though, isn't it?


In what way(s)?

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:41 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Tsavo wrote:And then there is lightness through posing. That is where the horse is stuck of his own volition and not due to the rider.
Without that arcing out to an unblocking hand, there is no cycle.
True, and people can have some success with a posing horse, providing it has a motor and is obedient. Most times when I see those drooping reins that so many swoon over, I think most of the time the horse is posing.


Besides some moments of self carriage test, I am not sure why people need to have a loop in the reins? I just don't see the point, reins are there for a reason.

We don't ride western ranch horses.... :?:

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:54 pm

Rosie commented on a pic of me and Rocky ( on the July/Aug goals thread ) that fits into this thread. The comment was that my reins were too long and my hands were too far back. It was a really good call. I had spent the last two days working on this. Rocky was getting behind my leg and heavy in the contact. I think (but am not totally sure) that this starts with her not respecting the bit. She is good about working under my control about 75% of the time. She does however, know from experience, that she can sneak a little rein out of my hands here and there and on some days she does this. It’s my fault of course, but I am not always aware of letting it happen. When she sneaks rein length, I feel it unconsciously and use a little leg to get her to go forward and off the heavy contact. She half heartedly goes more forward but, at the same time, not respecting the restraining aid of the bit, she gets a little heavier in the contact and sneaks a tiny bit more rein length.Then I , again uunconsciously, bring my hands back a tiny bit. Its a BAD cycle that I have allowed!!

I think this is an example the connection between the foundational (IFOTL) and the ideal (light contact). I think the two concepts are so interrelated that it’s hard to know where a problem with one or the other starts. I am thinking about this now, and have some really good video of my last two rides that is helping a lot. In the first vid my reins were even longer than the pic that Rosie commented on. In the second vid I at least had a good idea of the problem, but hadn’t solved it completely. There are spots in the vid where I took the pics from where my reins are the right length. It is a work in progress...

Edited to fix typo
Last edited by demi on Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:19 pm

And of course, it’s more complex than I can easily explain, and as I was walking the dogs after the above post, I realized that I had left out the part about getting a good response for getting the horse IFOL. Her half hearted response to my leg was due to my ineffective (half-hearted) request for forward. I fixed that yesterday but I need to stay on top of it...again, the work in progress.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby musical comedy » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:30 pm

demi wrote:She does however, know from experience, that she can sneak a little rein out of my hands here and there and on some days she does this. It’s my fault of course, but I am not always aware of letting it happen. When she sneaks rein length, I feel it unconsciously and use a little leg to get her to go forward and off the heavy contact. She half heartedly goes more forward but, at the same time, not respecting the restraining aid of the bit, she gets a little heavier in the contact and sneaks a tiny bit more rein length.Then I , again uunconsciously, bring my hands back a tiny bit. Its a BAD cycle that I have allowed!!
This is what I deal with as well. The bringing the hands back is a reflex I think. My trainer is on me constantly about keeping the hands forward and never rotating back. It's really hard. Like you say, they sneak a little bit of rein at a time. People that ride without really riding the horse into the contact on a shorter, forward rein do not have this problem. A horse won't pull or resist against a loose rein, but they won't be connected either (unless already an established correctly trained advanced horse).

p.s. You have a typo in your post. Rosie said your reins were too long, not too short.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:19 pm

musical comedy wrote:A horse won't pull or resist against a loose rein, but they won't be connected either (unless already an established correctly trained advanced horse).


A horse won't pull or resist against light contact either, so I think we create resistances by trying to get too much too soon, or by trying to get what we want in ineffective ways.

I've been riding my mule in the indoor lately because he and the other horse I'm riding are there, and it's more convenient than going out to get Sting. I do my trot work with the other horse because he's just learning about turning, and my canter work on my mule because he can canter in the indoor, and because I'm mostly just riding for exercise instead of working on anything specific I've become much more aware of when they lose their balance.

And when they lose their balance they inevitably shift more weight onto their forehands. They don't necessarily get heavier in the hand because I'm using exercises and figures more than aids to help teach them how to balance, but they would get heavier on the aids if I was trying to use the aids to rebalance them because part of being able to stay light on the aids is being able to maintain the kind of balance that allows them to do that.

I think that's what Galopp was saying about balance being its own reward. At the time I was thinking that yes, balance is rewarding because that's when good trainers lighten the pressure, but it's not the balance itself that's rewarding the horse. But now that I've been working on leaving my horses alone as much as possible and using the figures to allow them to develop better balance, I understand what she means by that, as losing their balance is not a pleasant experience for a horse so they're always doing their best to find the balance that allows them to stay safer.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:10 pm

kande50 wrote:
musical comedy wrote:A horse won't pull or resist against a loose rein, but they won't be connected either (unless already an established correctly trained advanced horse).


...A horse won't pull or resist against light contact either, so I think we create resistances by trying to get too much too soon, or by trying to get what we want in ineffective ways...


I am certainly guilty of trying to get too much too soon AND asking in ineffective ways.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:31 pm

I fixed the typo MC, thanks for pointing it out.

I find it harder to ride the horse into light contact while riding at a walk. MC talks about keeping her horse on contact at the walk in another thread and I can relate to what she said. My horse goes BTL if I ask for prolonged walking on light contact. I practiced this at a walk for two days in a row and that is all I can expect from my horse right now. I knew if I tried it again today, I’d just be trying to get too much too soon (see Kande’s post above ;) ).Today I just walked in the pasture on a long, loose rein. Horse was happy. It is a balance. Tomorrow she will have a day off, then a trail ride on Monday, and then, finally on Tuesday I’ll take her back in the arena. I plan to video on Tuesday and I’ll see what I have...

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:10 pm

demi wrote:
I find it harder to ride the horse into light contact while riding at a walk.


Mine don't want much contact at the walk either, but why would I want a firm contact when it takes so little to shift the weight back at the walk?

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby demi » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:19 pm

I didnt say firm contact, I said light. And it’s at the walk because walk is all I can do with my horse right now. She has a torn suspensory. But I do want to be able to have a light contact at the walk anyway, just not for a long time.

DH is bugging me to go. More later.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:21 pm

demi wrote:
I am certainly guilty of trying to get too much too soon AND asking in ineffective ways.


If only we'd had to resources to be able to ride with those who knew how and could impart their knowledge effectively, we wouldn't have had to waste our youth on all that trial and error.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby kande50 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:28 pm

demi wrote:I didnt say firm contact, I said light. And it’s at the walk because walk is all I can do with my horse right now. She has a torn suspensory. But I do want to be able to have a light contact at the walk anyway, just not for a long time.


I think horses can perceive much lighter aids at the walk, so the weight of the reins can be enough.

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Re: Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:46 pm

Can a horse be tight in the body and light on the bit? Absolutely! Many times lack of push into the bit is telling me that my horse is not going well. If I looked at just what I had in my hand it would feel good. However, the neck was extremely tense and the horse was not working with me

When I feel the contact get to light, usually it's a sign of something being incorrect.
I think we need to remember that there are two components to bit acceptance

The first is the horses physical acceptance of the bit being in the mouth and relaxing around it in the jaw and relaxing the tongue. This is what an intro horse needs, and this is what acceptance of the bit means at that level The second is how the whole body of the horse responds to the contact of the rider. This is when you start to get a half-halt and back to front connection

Is lightness always a good thing? After all it can mean the horse is just not pushing into the bridle

What do you guys actually mean by lightness anyways? No contact? A light pull? Weight of the bit?

I prefer a slight pushing into the bit where I feel like if I ask the horse to bend left or right there is no resistance anywhere in the neck or back. I also can lengthen or shorten the reins with no issues. For me it's a rideability factor not just what my hands are feeling because honestly that changes every second as contact is a dynamic situation. I realize that we all strive for consistency, but knowing how to manage various challenges is part of being a good Rider. My horse is quite an expressive horse so I think that factors in, everything is a very active process and and always trying to bring civility to the system.

Sometimes if a contact is so consistent then the rider's afraid of making a mistake or riding the horse really forward?

I've noticed that contact is not linear, if I'm starting something new like half pass then I have to refresh the basics of contact at the same time we challenge ourselves. That's just how it goes with riding horses

Maybe I've had negative connotations was lightness, I think the terms need to be more defined in these discussions. I just no good contact when I feel it


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