Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Ryeissa wrote:I have been really struggling with the forward first or balance first, and for riot it's BOTH at the SAME TIME.


It's not forward versus balance. It is movement versus balance. What to do first. If you are moving, you are doing doing balance within movement. If you come back to halt to regain balance every time you lose balance you are doing balance before movement.

If you are correctly forward that is balanced.

Here's some stuff on balance...

https://eclectic-horseman.com/balance-v ... -dressage/

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/The-Rider/ ... lance1.pdf

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:48 pm

actually balance is a very interesting thing. Neurons, the part of the body that tell the body what to do are mostly vested in keeping the brain safe, in other words, in not falling over. however many things may incorrectly influence the neurons, a wry jaw may make the brain believe its on a slope, low heels influence the horse into thinking its walking uphill now these are just theories , nothing is really completely understood. However, it still seems to me that people can learn to balance on small things, like tightrope walking. but its learned, so it makes sense to me that teaching balance while standing, and then adding movement is as a premise of value. However having said that too, horses are made to run and move, and ultimately we do want horses to move with us on their back, so moving forward and learning balance in motion is also needed. So with the juxtaposition of these ideas, doing a bit of both seems to offer the horse the opportunity to learn which ever way it learns best.

humans do not learn the same way, some are visual learners, some are immitators, some learn though doing, horses, i have found, too learn different ways, so i see no harm in offering different ways to the horse to understand the same thing

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:16 am

Tsavo wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:I have been really struggling with the forward first or balance first, and for riot it's BOTH at the SAME TIME.


It's not forward versus balance. It is movement versus balance. What to do first. If you are moving, you are doing doing balance within movement. If you come back to halt to regain balance every time you lose balance you are doing balance before movement.

If you are correctly forward that is balanced.

Here's some stuff on balance...

https://eclectic-horseman.com/balance-v ... -dressage/

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/The-Rider/ ... lance1.pdf


I maybe didn't explain very well, its a choice to use leg driving aids first as a solution or lift the sternum and slow the front legs to gain balance.

I have to do both. Its essentially the classical half halt, but my understanding of it comes from a deeper understanding of German and French schools. Its not just kick and resist rein.

I was trying to isolate too much because sometimes my brain hurts and I want one answer.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby khall » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:55 am

I don't think of forward but active, so the horse is quicker with their reactions. Those uber movers with the big trots can hover rather than engage. The horse has to engage the HQs (balance) but also be ready at any time to open up and move (movement) key though is to not lose the balance while in movement:)

This IMO is really horse dependent as to how you approach them but I am a firm proponent of using the lateral work to encourage the engagement of any horse. See how halting in SI really engages the horse, not just forward to the halt, but leg on to the halt.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:42 am

Ryeissa wrote:
I maybe didn't explain very well, its a choice to use leg driving aids first as a solution or lift the sternum and slow the front legs to gain balance.

I have to do both. Its essentially the classical half halt, but my understanding of it comes from a deeper understanding of German and French schools. Its not just kick and resist rein.

I was trying to isolate too much because sometimes my brain hurts and I want one answer.


I would not overthink the HH. Nobody thinks it is kick and resist with the hand. That will never work without a release. You are saying you must have forward to even hope that a HH goes through. Everyone will agree. You need something to work with.

The usual HH just shifts weigh back. Unilateral HH shifts weigh to particular hind legs as to straighten.

I think people would get HH much quicker and easier if they had the horse forward. Without forward I don't think HH can be grokked.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:00 am

Tsavo wrote: If you come back to halt to regain balance every time you lose balance you are doing balance before movement.


I don't think there's any requirement to come back to halt to rebalance, as we only need to come back to where the horse is balanced enough and then can attempt to add more impulsion again. So it may be back to halt in the beginning, or at times, but if the training is careful enough then it only takes a small decrease in impulsion to regain the balance.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:03 am

Ryeissa wrote:I was trying to isolate too much because sometimes my brain hurts and I want one answer.


Wouldn't it be great if the concepts at least were simple?

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:33 am

kande50 wrote:I don't think there's any requirement to come back to halt to rebalance,


If the rebalancing is done at anything other than halt, it is BY DEFINITION balance within movement. There is no room to finesse this and no ground to stand on if you claim otherwise. Words have meanings.

I asked a GP trainer knowledgeable in this issue and as I recall he said everyone is doing balance in movement including the BBM crowd after the first little bit whether they realize it or not because nobody is constantly coming back to halt the entire training career. There is no debate and no divide.

If something doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:15 pm

Tsavo wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
I maybe didn't explain very well, its a choice to use leg driving aids first as a solution or lift the sternum and slow the front legs to gain balance.

I have to do both. Its essentially the classical half halt, but my understanding of it comes from a deeper understanding of German and French schools. Its not just kick and resist rein.

I was trying to isolate too much because sometimes my brain hurts and I want one answer.



I would not overthink the HH. Nobody thinks it is kick and resist with the hand. That will never work without a release. You are saying you must have forward to even hope that a HH goes through. Everyone will agree. You need something to work with.

The usual HH just shifts weigh back. Unilateral HH shifts weigh to particular hind legs as to straighten.

I think people would get HH much quicker and easier if they had the horse forward. Without forward I don't think HH can be grokked.


But too forward is worse than not active enough. The horse can't keep up and falls on the forehand.
This is my point of the whole post.
Managing all sides of a horse where they throw a shouler or do 50 other things during a HH.
Again it depends on your horse. If its truly that simple for you I envy you.

Leg us not descriptive. How do you use the leg? What area? How is your thigh placed? Do you rotate your leg in? I hope not. ..
How is your horse reacting? Do you keep your neutral spine? How is your aid timed with footfall? Did the horse blow past the rein?
What are my elbows doing? Am I staying quiet with my body when I use leg?

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:24 pm

Ryeissa wrote:But too forward is worse than not active enough.


Right. Avoid "too forward" at all times. That's running and not really forward.

Leg is not descriptive. How do you use the leg? What area? How is your thigh placed? Do you rotate your leg in? I hope not. ..
How is your horse reacting? Do you keep your neutral spine? How is your aid timed with footfall? Did the horse blow past the rein?
What are my elbows doing? Am I staying quiet with my body when I use leg?


This is where a million wet saddle pads comes in. If you are constantly reviewing 100 things at any moment I don't know how you will put it together. Concentrate on forward and not blocking in any equitation that will allow those two things and then work from there. That's what I would do. This is all MUCH easier on a trained horse. There are very few people who can climb the levels for the first time on a horse who is climbing the levels. That said I did know two people who did that (on super horses) but there are many more who didn't.
Last edited by Tsavo on Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby StraightForward » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:28 pm

Ryeissa wrote:I have to do both. Its essentially the classical half halt, but my understanding of it comes from a deeper understanding of German and French schools. Its not just kick and resist rein.

I was trying to isolate too much because sometimes my brain hurts and I want one answer.


In my lesson on Kyra she had me think of sitting on a yoga ball to get better engagement and more horse up in front of me. I think mechanically, it got mto lift my own sternum and slightly tuck my seatbones. I found it quite effective and didn't make me over think and get stiff trying to manipulate a certain body part.
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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:41 pm

Tsavo no its not just time in the saddle. I think we are coming at it from different places

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:05 pm

Tsavo wrote:I asked a GP trainer knowledgeable in this issue and as I recall he said everyone is doing balance in movement including the BBM crowd after the first little bit whether they realize it or not because nobody is constantly coming back to halt the entire training career. There is no debate and no divide.

If something doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.



Oh, now I see what you're saying. You're interpreting BBM as a literal description rather than shorthand for an entire method. BBM doesn't automatically become BFM as soon as the horse moves, any more than a half halt is no longer a half halt if it's not exactly half of a halt. :-)

BBM is just shorthand for balance before additional movement, or Baucher's Second Manner.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:18 pm

If you are rebalancing at anything but halt then you are not doing BBM FULL STOP. Words have meanings.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:58 pm

My point was do you lift the sternum to find balance (@ halt walk etc) or do you use leg to engage to get a secondary result of the sternum lifting?
I have no idea what BBM MTk Gh gutrx means.
There was a point 3 y ago I had to do slow walk with sternum lifting since my horse was rushing and flinging.
Now I can properly use leg and my horse understands balance.
I can't use a stilling impression and a signal to go at the same point. Its confusing.
Of course I use all of my body in a reshaping way but one must be the primary conmunicator aid.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby khall » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:01 pm

Fun update on Gaila, trainer took her to a WD show this weekend (she's never shown before) and just did WT tests because they were showing on grass. She scored 72 and in the 80's! Apparently was rather undisturbed about being at a show, was able to stand tied at the trailer and was just an overall good girl. Gaila has always been more sensible than her brother Rip thank goodness! He can get kind of high at a show.

Gaila in her test. She looks great in Western tack!

https://www.facebook.com/peggy.vriley/v ... 4Mzc5NDIy/
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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:16 pm

Ryeissa wrote:My point was do you lift the sternum to find balance (@ halt walk etc) or do you use leg to engage to get a secondary result of the sternum lifting?


I do counted walk (not halt-walk) to raise the sternum/withers in walk. While it works at walk I cannot carry that over into trot/canter for very long. To raise the sternum/withers in those gaits I need HH.

Counted walk is tai chi walk from the seat and while that is easy, getting tai chi trot and canter is not as easy. The only way to get it is HH, sometimes only from seat, in my opinion.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby DJR » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:19 pm

I was at a Lauren Sprieser clinic this past weekend. It was my first time riding with her, and I really enjoyed it. It was all in keeping with what my regular trainer is working on, which is always a good thing.

We didn't do anything fancy, just worked on increasing Jet's strength & carrying power so that he is optimally set up for Fourth Level work. Given his breeding - Friesian/Perch - he prefers to drop his back especially in the canter so we focused on improving his low back strength in canter, and we focused on improving his inside hind leg's action in all gaits but especially trot. She was very complimentary of Jet and felt he had the potential to get to FEI levels (music to my ears!).

Here is some of our trot work, with the focus on channeling inside leg to outside rein and get him stepping more under himself.
2018Sep24 Jet_LaurenSprieser2.jpg
Trot
2018Sep24 Jet_LaurenSprieser2.jpg (88.57 KiB) Viewed 906 times


And here is some of our canter work. I'm SO pleased with this in particular. He was literally "blooming" over his back. He couldn't sustain it more than a few steps each time (we were doing 10m circles at each quadrant of a 20m circle, or at RSVP around the school), but that is our homework this winter.
2018Sep24 Jet_LaurenSprieser1.jpg
Canter
2018Sep24 Jet_LaurenSprieser1.jpg (79.06 KiB) Viewed 906 times


I'm SO excited to keep going with Jet. He soaks up the work and handles the extra intensity very well (and gets lots of peppermints after, which he loves!).
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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:24 pm

Wow---look at Jet's canter! That is an awesome update. Glad you had a good clinic.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:43 pm

Rosie, khall, congrats are definitely in order on the shows! Good work.

DJR-- your boy is looking powerful. I really enjoy Lauren's COTH columns and am glad it translates to her teaching style as well.

One week away from this challenge being half-way over, and I'm pretty happy with where we are.

Kiwi:
- Changes are getting straighter. I've been getting pickier about the quality of the canter all the time, and as a result (no surprise) the changes are getting straighter and more prompt.
- I revisited transitions into and out of the medium and extended trots and am much happier with her balance.
- Half steps are now not dramatic. Next step: getting them more on-the-spot.

Queso:
- We can walk/trot under saddle off the longe, and
- Went out on our first 2 trail rides (over to and around the hay fields) over the weekend, and he was a Very Good Boy.
- Canter is becoming less dramatic on the longe. Probably can introduce the canter under saddle in a couple more rides.
- He's turned his lovely white mane and tail a dingy sort of brown thanks to lots of rain this week. Bummer.

Me:
- Down 2ish lb, but struggling to lose more than that
- Finally getting into pattern of dog walks/stationary biking on days when I don't ride, and sometimes days when I do. So that's progress.
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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby kande50 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:50 pm

Ryeissa wrote:My point was do you lift the sternum to find balance (@ halt walk etc) or do you use leg to engage to get a secondary result of the sternum lifting?


I'm guessing that the secondary result of using the leg may be related to keeping the horse forward? The lesson of the leg is an important part of the BBM progression, because it's very easy to teach the horse that it's more about lifting than moving forward, so he needs to know what the leg and seat mean, too.

There was a point 3 y ago I had to do slow walk with sternum lifting since my horse was rushing and flinging.


So he didn't need the lesson of the leg because you didn't have any trouble creating impulsion, but just needed to figure out what you wanted him to do with all that impulsion?

I can't use a stilling impression and a signal to go at the same point. Its confusing.
Of course I use all of my body in a reshaping way but one must be the primary conmunicator aid.


Agree, and IMO, that's one of the big problems with BFM, is that it requires hand and leg together, but somehow trainers have to figure out how much of each when to get the kind of changes they're looking for. BBM, OTOH, by necessity, breaks it down more and teaches each skill separately, and then only adds movement incrementally, which suits some horses and/or trainers much better than trying to work it all out in bigger chunks.

IOW, go back to halt or walk and figure it out and then try to add more activity.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:16 pm

Tsavo wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:My point was do you lift the sternum to find balance (@ halt walk etc) or do you use leg to engage to get a secondary result of the sternum lifting?


I do counted walk (not halt-walk) to raise the sternum/withers in walk. While it works at walk I cannot carry that over into trot/canter for very long. To raise the sternum/withers in those gaits I need HH.

Counted walk is tai chi walk from the seat and while that is easy, getting tai chi trot and canter is not as easy. The only way to get it is HH, sometimes only from seat, in my opinion.


the halt/walk/walk becomes the HH. its the same thing.

I do a LOT of work in the walk to setup the horse, returning to it as needed. the goal is to always rebalance in that gait but it's not always attainable.

I do not do a slow trot or slow canter, the tool is used in the walk at a very basic level. I do not want to go to the speedier gaits till I have better balance and not falling on the forehand. I use the idea of "does my trot have both a halt and a canter in it?" to see if I have the right reactions to things. Just what works for me

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:22 pm

kande50 wrote:
There was a point 3 y ago I had to do slow walk with sternum lifting since my horse was rushing and flinging.


So he didn't need the lesson of the leg because you didn't have any trouble creating impulsion, but just needed to figure out what you wanted him to do with all that impulsion?


No, its the opposite. I had no true impulsion, I had rushing. they feel very different to me. If you think of them both as excess energy then yes, you are right. Impulsion is a positive push, but rushing to me is mismanaged high energy. I had to remove that completely for a time.

Its about the mentality of how the horse is reacting. I had to work on deliberate steps, slow and wait. My horse always was 2 steps in front- so he wasn't really paying attention- really. TOH was always rushing the last two steps, the transitions were muddy with less clear gait transitions. SI was wobbly and inconsistent. LY fell apart because he wasn't in the contact

For example- walk one step. halt. Walk two steps, halt. I needed the front legs to march more UP AND DOWN not waaaaaaaaaaay out in front. Adding leg to a horse in this situation created a really behind the bit/deep contact and tight back. Once we created a "wait" and balance so the horse stayed over his balance point I could add proper thrust to this system and he stays on the bit, elevated and back up.

this is why adding leg at the wrong time creates more problems.

It depends on the horse, mine is a curler and rushes with a lot of energy. We could never achieve any iota of collection or half halts and this is why I slammed into the second level wall. I had nothing to work with. Its still coming slowly but definitely a lot more fun to ride, and he is showing better muscling. I still have a lot to work on, of course.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:27 pm

DJR wrote:I was at a Lauren Sprieser clinic this past weekend. It was my first time riding with her, and I really enjoyed it. It was all in keeping with what my regular trainer is working on, which is always a good thing.

I'm SO excited to keep going with Jet. He soaks up the work and handles the extra intensity very well (and gets lots of peppermints after, which he loves!).


First, insanely jealous of you. Second, I am so happy for you! Jet looks amazing. thanks for sharing,
Is there any particular exercise that you can share?

I've got 2 riding clinics and maybe auditing one more in Oct so I want to finish this fall really strong. I am really getting a lot out of them and it makes me want to do more clinics, vs shows, but getting out and traveling is helping us in general.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby kande50 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:12 pm

Ryeissa wrote:]No, its the opposite. I had no true impulsion, I had rushing. they feel very different to me. If you think of them both as excess energy then yes, you are right. Impulsion is a positive push, but rushing to me is mismanaged high energy. I had to remove that completely for a time.


I don't think of impulsion as excess energy, but just as energy. The rushing part would be a separate issue that would most likely have something to do with anxiety.

The purpose of the lesson of the leg is simply to teach a horse to move in response to the leg, and is often way more about "go forward now" than anything else.

For example- walk one step. halt. Walk two steps, halt. I needed the front legs to march more UP AND DOWN not waaaaaaaaaaay out in front. Adding leg to a horse in this situation created a really behind the bit/deep contact and tight back. Once we created a "wait" and balance so the horse stayed over his balance point I could add proper thrust to this system and he stays on the bit, elevated and back up.


Yes, that makes sense, and is why I've become convinced that a horse who is btv can't collect, but can only stiffen his back and lift his legs more, because if his poll isn't the highest point of his neck then he just simply cannot use his back and hind end the way he would have to if he was going to be able to lift his withers/shoulders/chest.

this is why adding leg at the wrong time creates more problems.


Agree that if the horse doesn't understand what the leg means and it just makes him more nervous and rushy then he either needs to be desensitized to the leg (which some do by keeping it on), or be taught what the leg means.

It depends on the horse, mine is a curler and rushes with a lot of energy. We could never achieve any iota of collection or half halts and this is why I slammed into the second level wall. I had nothing to work with. Its still coming slowly but definitely a lot more fun to ride, and he is showing better muscling. I still have a lot to work on, of course.


Yeah, who doesn't? But at least working on it is fun, and it becomes even more fun as they continue to catch on to what we want.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby DJR » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:29 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
DJR wrote:I was at a Lauren Sprieser clinic this past weekend. It was my first time riding with her, and I really enjoyed it. It was all in keeping with what my regular trainer is working on, which is always a good thing.

I'm SO excited to keep going with Jet. He soaks up the work and handles the extra intensity very well (and gets lots of peppermints after, which he loves!).


First, insanely jealous of you. Second, I am so happy for you! Jet looks amazing. thanks for sharing,
Is there any particular exercise that you can share?

I've got 2 riding clinics and maybe auditing one more in Oct so I want to finish this fall really strong. I am really getting a lot out of them and it makes me want to do more clinics, vs shows, but getting out and traveling is helping us in general.


The exercises were pretty mainstream, nothing exciting (but exciting because of how much they help).

For canter: on a 20m circle, do 10m circles at each quadrant and focus on a steady, slow (not running) stride while I SIT on his back, bum into the saddle, let him carry from his back. If he breaks to trot or walk, no big deal. Go back to walk, reorganize, and start again. No "error", just conditioning and rewarding round, slow (not slow hind leg, just not rushing/falling over), and methodical.

For trot: use the outside rein to keep him in shoulder fore and almost SI around an 18m circle (staying off the walls) and use the inside leg/spur to "stroke" him up and out to the outside rein. Again, nothing mean or excessive, just tickle tickle tickle, support, support, support. And wow what a difference in his trot the few strides each time that he could maintain it. Avoid rushing, just a nice working trot tempo or perhaps slightly slower if he was having trouble coordinating. Yummy!

I'm not good at explaining things, but hope that gives a vague picture of what we were doing!
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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Chisamba » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:17 pm

Tsavo wrote:If you are rebalancing at anything but halt then you are not doing BBM FULL STOP. Words have meanings.

Wow, you must be talking about some new theory I have never heard off called balance without movement.

Words have meanings.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:56 pm

I don't know what your words mean.

There is a whole school of riding that does balance before movement (at first). Then everyone is doing balance within movement.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:08 pm

Tsavo wrote:I don't know what your words mean.

There is a whole school of riding that does balance before movement (at first). Then everyone is doing balance within movement.


ok, but I am not talking about that.

Anyways, I resolved my inner dialog so personally I moved on from my dilemmas. I have answers of when I personally slow with seat to lift sternum and when I instead add energy and the contact is better as a result. I am learning to trust and feel when that is, also when to use flexions and when it's not a jaw issue.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:16 pm

kande50 wrote:
Agree that if the horse doesn't understand what the leg means and it just makes him more nervous and rushy then he either needs to be desensitized to the leg (which some do by keeping it on), or be taught what the leg means.


not quite. This is choosing what side of longitudinal suppleness to highlight. As I said either on this thread or another, there is always the question in any gait "is there a halt or canter" available, can I make this bigger or smaller. Can I package the horse or extend the topline.

This is sort of a tangent of that- what part of the seat/leg/hand do I highlight? Do I choose to slow first then refresh? If this is a bit issue, would flexions help? Or is the neck tight because he is not engaging?

you have to sort of know where the problem is in order to fix it. My questions derive from the fact that for my horse- yes all of this was true. There were elements of needing flexions, slowing the footfalls, adding energy at different points, or in the same ride. My horse prefers to rearrange his body to suit his asymmetry and preferences. they all do to some degree.

My horse should be made sensitized, not reduce reacting. That is the opposite of what I want. This feels like a huge black hole of discussion, but its helpful to me to type it out I guess.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:36 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Tsavo wrote:I don't know what your words mean.

There is a whole school of riding that does balance before movement (at first). Then everyone is doing balance within movement.


ok, but I am not talking about that.

Anyways, I resolved my inner dialog so personally I moved on from my dilemmas. I have answers of when I personally slow with seat to lift sternum and when I instead add energy and the contact is better as a result. I am learning to trust and feel when that is, also when to use flexions and when it's not a jaw issue.


I wrote that in response to Chisamba.

Glad you have resolved the issue.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:42 am

Usually Kimba is quite consistent, and last week I was so pleased with each ride, today, she was just uncooperative. I cannot describe it as anything but surly. I started with simple stuff that she was fluent in on Friday, today, just nope. I went on to a pretty normal warm up and she was oppositional. She doesnt have obvious hearts but being a mare she may be having an off hormone day. I'll keep tract.

Fortunately my other rides were more gratifying.

I'm feeling a bit down.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby heddylamar » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:27 am

Chisamba wrote:Usually Kimba is quite consistent, and last week I was so pleased with each ride, today, she was just uncooperative. I cannot describe it as anything but surly. I started with simple stuff that she was fluent in on Friday, today, just nope. I went on to a pretty normal warm up and she was oppositional. She doesnt have obvious hearts but being a mare she may be having an off hormone day. I'll keep tract.

Fortunately my other rides were more gratifying.

I'm feeling a bit down.


Maia has days like this, sometimes weeks.

Like you, it effects me too. So, I cut our rides unusually short -- hit a happy spot, a few nice strides of trot or a good canter depart (our bar is low ATM), and get off.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Nikiwink » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:02 pm

My apologies i can't reply to all that i would like. On my phone replying gets tricky.

Congrats to those out and about!! And those injured or with injured horse i hope you all have quick and stress free recoveries.

I'm on a very different path nowadays and my current project is challenging in every way. Tension and worry has riddled his body and interactions with any human the last 4-5 weeks since he's arrived here.

Behaviour wise while he has had some handling and an outing or 2 he reminds me more of a brumby or wild horse than a domestic one (lived in a herd for his 8yrs and only handled as needed) so ive been treating him accordingly.

Today was the first day he didn't get so anxious with my presence that he had to leave :D I was actually able to pick up all 4 feet and curry him nearly all over at liberty (well round yard). He actually lowered his head and chilled right out.

My goal is softness first in everything (vs balance and forward etc as mentioned above) which to me will bring the relaxation and acceptance he will need to ever become my riding horse.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:17 pm

Chisamba wrote:Usually Kimba is quite consistent, and last week I was so pleased with each ride, today, she was just uncooperative. I cannot describe it as anything but surly. I started with simple stuff that she was fluent in on Friday, today, just nope. I went on to a pretty normal warm up and she was oppositional. She doesnt have obvious hearts but being a mare she may be having an off hormone day. I'll keep tract.

Fortunately my other rides were more gratifying.

I'm feeling a bit down.


Oh Chisamba, don't feel down. I hope you are feeling better.


We cant expect them to be the same every day. I know Im not >;->

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:55 pm

I did some liberty work today, to refresh us both.

The indoor was fresh raked so Titanium and I took advantage to ride two circles as accurately as we could. Five or ten circles left, the switch at X and five to ten circles right. Made a reasonably round track. Then trotted around the rail a few times. Then...the test...did the circles still feel round when we trotted the circle track we made to the right, the other way. And then switch.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Dresseur » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:54 pm

Well, I guess I can add changes to my October goal list. The caveat is that it's going to take the time that it takes, but after my lesson last night, Andrea felt that he was doing exactly what he needed to be doing behind, and he actually switched behind. So, we're looking at scheduling time for me to go down for a few days to see what happens when we actually ask him to change. This for me is a huge big deal milestone, one that I have a lot of anxiety over, because I worry about messing things up when I practice alone, without a spotter. So, we'll see how it goes!

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby StraightForward » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:13 pm

That's so exciting, Dresseur!

I had two super rides on Annabelle last week. It's like she finally "got it" with the trot/canter transitions, and was able to step under and move into it nicely and much more on the aids than before. She's also getting to where she can hold CC a little better, and a CC loop to X is not a total disaster. With the new cantering prowess, she was even gathering herself up and almost making a clean W/C transition. The last two rides have not been so great though, so she might be sore from the new level of work. I'm also trying to dissect her LY off the right leg, because she tends to just bulge out and land her her left shoulder. We're actually doing a little SF in direction of travel to get her crossing over without dumping onto the shoulder. She'll get today off and just lunge tomorrow, and we'll see where we are by the weekend. Entry for T1 and T3 for the schooling show in October is in the mail.
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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:09 pm

:D Clinic this weekend for me!

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:08 pm

Well it has been about 3 weeks of lunging W/T/C 5 days a week to try to get my horse sound. The limp is much improved, could be described as slight, and I have hope.

Last winter, he came sound in 2 weeks of 24/7 turnout. Either his condition is worse now which is not unlikely or the work I am doing with him is just not as good as 24/7 turnout walking around with a herd. Or both may be true.

If I could find a herd I could put him with for a month I would do that. But the limp is slight enough now and he has enough consistent work such that I am going to do the rest from the saddle.

In thinking about this, I am wondering if he is coming even not because the LF is loosening up but because the RF is worsening. That would make him even but not in a good way. But that is not what happens with arthritis. I have to hang my hat on the chances of both being equally painful is very low such that if he is sound and even that it means he is pretty pain-free.

He is completely okay with work... starts trotting when I start running, stays in canter or trot until I stop him, appears loose and not guarded, etc. I have to think he does not mind the work at the time. I don't think he is capable of accepting work and connecting it to being in less pain for having done it.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:56 am

Ooof… I wandered into the barn on my way home this afternoon to go for a quiet hack, to find trainer's trainer just getting on a horse, so of course, I took the proffered lesson.

I think she's killed me.

Laddie had a high old time :) but I think my battered body need to get psyched up to these events! It'll be a two-ibuprofen night tonight.

However, it was very productive. We did a lot of work with shoulder-in to renvers and shoulder-in to half-pass, with a lot of emphasis on my position and weighting. Apparently I have a tendency to try too hard and end up doing all sorts of strange and entirely unhelpful bodily contortions rather than just sitting in the middle and asking. No wonder I hurt. And it's amazing how well the horse can do things when I get out of the way...

Then we worked on the counter-canter, and the cc shoulder-in. It's so interesting how it shines such a bright light on the horse's weaknesses (in this case, the right hind) and how good of a collecting exercise it is.

Laddie is really starting to look quite buff, much more of a square then a rectangle, and he gives me the impression that he finds the whole proceedings quite good fun.

Who are you riding with Rye? I do enjoy a good clinic--so much more to it that just getting a good lesson yourself with the opportunity to watch and learn from everyone else's rides, too.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:08 pm

Wow, that's a great surprise clinic ride Moutaineer! I hear you on the challenge of "sitting chilly" in the lateral work and calling the horse to it. I'm becoming convinced that anytime my body isn't within a fairly small range of motion (similar to hands staying in a relatively small box of space), I'm probably doing something funky.

Here's a shot from the summer where I think we are doing renvers on a circle. My bad habit of not moving the leg back (but pulling up the heel) is in good evidence here. I need to capture a more recent image, as I have been working on this the last few months.

Emi in July-small.jpg
Emi in July-small.jpg (214.28 KiB) Viewed 558 times


I look forward to future reports and clinic insights from all!

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:58 pm

Lovely photo- really nice balance and impression.

its cold now, I am not a fan. My dirty horse will go in a black saddle pad since he is now cream and I can't bathe him in the 30s and 40s.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby khall » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:26 pm

Well took Rip to vet for his scope and to look at that stifle RH. Whatever he did to that muscle he also tweaked to stifle, he had some effusion and soreness there so vet injected stifles. It's been 3 yrs since his last injections. Now if he will mind his manners! Scope looked good though, so was happy with that. Took my filly as well she had what appeared to be joint effusion L knee, sound, not sure what. Rads showed nothing, apparently she just bumped her knee, probably getting out of the way of Rip in the pasture. Scoped her while there just to make sure all was still ok with her and she was completely clear of anything upper airway wise. I can ride Rip tomorrow lightly for a few days.

Rode the TB/Perch yesterday, was having issues with the saddle and was struggling a bit because of it. I really need to be able to shorten her base, keep those hind legs more engaged. Going to be difficult with her conformation. One thing we have found is she has to keep the head up period, even if she is a bit above the bit, she gets too low and it buries her on the forehand. She has a big head and heavy shoulders. I was doing lots of small turns and small circles bend to bend, trying to add in some lateral work especially counter SI turns. Was getting those much better to the right which is the shoulder she wants to lay on.

Still hot and incredibly muggy here, finally getting some rain though.

Good reports and nice photo piedmont! I'm looking forward to my clinic with Cedar next month here at the farm. I also am hoping to host Jillian Kreinbring for a biomechanics lecture next year. Will find out in November if she can fit it in to her schedule.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:45 am

Ryeissa wrote: My dirty horse will go in a black saddle pad since he is now cream and I can't bathe him in the 30s and 40s.


Because I have a white (grey) horse, I am not allowed to use a white saddle pad---ever!

Khall, I totally hear you on not letting the heavy horse drop too low. It's just way too much mass when they get there. That task was super vivid to me riding the Perchx the other week. My half halt had to be like an electric fence ("do not touch below this!!!").

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby demi » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:50 am

Nice pic, Piedmont. I can see the renver and I agree with Ryeissa that it’s a “really nice balance and impression”. Thanks for sharing.

Mountaineer, I am glad you had a very productive ride with the trainer’s trainer. Even tho it ended in a “two ibuprofen night” it sounds like it was well worth it. You mentioned doing “strange and unhelpful body contortions” instead of just sitting in the middle and asking. I can SO relate to this, but OTOH, I think it’s just part of the process for ammies, and the older we get, the harder it is on the old bod. At some point, the horse learns, and the rider gets better, and then all’s right with the world...I keep telling myself, haha. No, really. I do know from past horses that as the horse and rider come together, it gets much easier. Until, of course, you add something new (and this can be more than a new movement, it can be a new trainer, a show, a clinic, etc.).

I am having my third lesson on trainer’s horse this morning and am looking forward to it. Last time I did I a full workout in the heat and humidity and felt great afterwards (I took two Aleve before the lesson LOL ) We did lots of canter and I was happy. Earlier this week the weather finally broke and temps and humidity are down. I could probably get away without the Aleve this morning, but just to be safe I am going to take it...this mare’s canter is big and trainer says it can be like a “washing machine” if she isn’t organized first. It felt very nice to me last week so maybe I had her well organized. Trainer pointed out to some students who were watching, how nice the mare was starting to look, so I think my feelings were accurate.

Rocky continues to walk. I decided not to do any lateral work, not ever baby steps, while she is recovering. She is being a perfect patient. Usually, when I do a lot of walking on contact with her, she starts to get a little impatient and will break into trot, if I am not really careful and quiet. She hasn’t done that lately so I am worried. I am afraid she isn’t trying to trot because the suspensory is still painful. At any rate, she goes for a recheck in another 3 weeks, and we’ll see.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:40 pm

So today I decided no matter what my mare pulls, I was going to just sit quietly and be British ( be calm and carry on ) lol.

I also remembered that I changed her to a French link bit so I went back to a single jointed snaffle . She tried very hard to be dramatic. After a good attempt at an exercise I dropped the reins to just show her I appreciated the attempt. She flung her head around and semi reared. Really? Because I gave her the rein. ? .

However I won the keep calm "battle" and she settled into work eventually.
Last edited by Chisamba on Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:44 pm

Now Titanium is supposed to be a hack horse, but oh my gosh, if you attempt to leave the barn area, it turns out his has a hissy fit, rearing spinning bolting back to the barn, backing up, imagine a horse refusing to load into the trailer, only refusing to walk ten meters away from the barn. So i decided to stay with the be calm motive. I just kept his nose pointing down the hill and sat there. If he chose to move, i asked that he move in the direction i wanted. he would balk and throw a tantrum, and i sat. So each time the tantrum was a little less emphatic, and eventually, he walked on down the trail, i had decided that no matter what i was going to get him to a fork in the trail, once he started down, i thought, maybe i will go on around the loop, but then i reminded myself that i had decided to go to the fork, so i restrained myself, stopped, rewarded him, and returned.

I think perhap the cooler weather is part of the influence on my animals, i guess the predators get hungry when its cool, of course they haven't been predated in generations but....

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:00 pm

Chisamba I think I know the frustration of behavior coming out of nowhere. This other horse I ride has bouts of bucking. He bucked when I started riding him and never got me off so he stopped. I took lessons on him and rode him several days a week and no bucking. Then out of nowhere he starts bucking again including when I just get on. I have gotten him over this last bucking episode by quashing the buck in a not pretty but not cruel way. It worked. I cantered him both ways today and no inkling of a buck. I have ZERO confidence that he has stopped bucking for good. Despite large bucks, he doesn't turn so he hasn't gotten me off yet. My glasses fly but I don't come off. If I did I think that would be it in terms of him constantly trying.

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Re: Don't call it fall: September/October Autumn Goals

Postby Tsavo » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:07 pm

My horse is sound on grass today. Now the grass is "level" which means not perfectly level like the ring but level enough such that I have felt him limp when he was limping. But no limp today. I did not trot in the ring and cashed my chips in on the grass soundness.

I am back to riding legs away and he is breaking from trot and canter which I will allow because I have not been riding him for several weeks. I pick up the trot or canter immediately so he quickly gets the idea that he has some voice but shouldn't abuse it. And he never does abuse it but I don't want him to start. But he works over his back the entire time so I will not need to have the saddle re-fitted. I think he will build his back soon now that he is sound under saddle and willing to work over his back.

Like last time, I think he will stop breaking gait with legs away after a few days but we will see. As soon as he stays in gait I will put my leg back on him.

I am happy. Score another point for my vet who says not to retire horses like mine. (Same guy who got clean margins. Some people are just good at what they do.)


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