Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

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Rosie B
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Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Rosie B » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:55 am

Hello team :)

Question for the gang... for those of you schooling 2nd/3rd or higher, how often do you ride leg yeild and for what purpose? I had a bit of an epiphany about this the other day, and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter before I share mine. :)

Thanks!

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:59 am

I don't school LY hardly at all. I do bending lateral work, SI, HI, counter SI, renvere, HP (WTC) both on straight and bending lines. Occasionally I will use LY when schooling HP where I do HP, LY zig zag (so HP R, LY L) that is to help with keeping the bending during HP.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Flight » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:17 pm

I add it into my mix of things. I like it to test responsiveness to my leg (sideways), to develop better sideways movement, get a better feel to a release of the bend (so not a straight bodied leg yield in this case). LY to half pass, helps develop reach and sideways, and the HP/LY zig zag described by khall.
I do a lot of lateral work similar to khall as well.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Rosie B » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:18 pm

Flight - how frequently do you add it to the mix? Is it an every ride thing? An every few rides? Once a week?

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:47 pm

Interesting question.

I guess I do a quick "test" of the availability of leg yield in the warm-up of most rides (could be at walk or trot for a few strides), but if the test is easily passed, I don't do a "test style" leg yield that much! But if the warmup test is failed, I do it quite deliberately as a re-schooling/wake-up to the sideways aids. Like Flight, I am a big fan of leg yield to half pass and half pass to leg yield. I like these in trot and in canter.

I do use "plie" (which is not a leg yield, but it is related in my mind) at the canter routinely in my warm-up.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby exvet » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:57 pm

Grant it that I have a 4 year old at this time; so, I ride leg yield fairly often (not every ride but a few times a week). Currently I'm training responsiveness to the leg with out letting the shoulders or haunches escape or speeding up to get away from the leg; but, I also use leg you from the wall and other such exercises in my warm-ups with all levels of horses when I feel I need to. I find it helpful to do more of a leg yield type of exercise on the 20 meter circle or square on any level of horse if my purpose is to mobilize the shoulders. I integrate it with other lateral work but I had a bad habit of getting it totally into my head that self carriage and collection was all about the hind end. While the hind end is crucial in self carriage and probably the 'foundation' to helping a horse carry and come through over its back, as we all know the shoulders have to have mobility too. The ability to keep each post on its separate corner is needed to keep a horse straight and/or balanced within its frame. I use the leg yield in a way when I'm riding upper level movements to help remind a horse that it really does have two separate shoulders and it's not to collapse or fall onto one or the other. Too often I use to allow my horses to go in a frame where the inside shoulder was lost/collapsed. Sometimes it's as simple as riding a leg yield through the corner (think counter bent) and then resume whatever work I was doing at the time; so, while I may not be riding leg yield from the quarter or center line, I still use the movement/exercise to better my horse's balance and way of going.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:11 pm

I really want to emphasize here, true LY has NO bend. We can yield to the leg in bend but that is a different subject and IMO very valuable. But where you have the horse's body straight and just slight flexion at occiput/C1 and move sideways is true LY. Not practiced by classical instructors because it is not an engaging but a disengaging movement. Engaging in lateral work is where one hind leg steps to center line or COM, true LY crosses the leg over CL with no bend in the body.

In Spain we did true LY every ride, walk and trot. Horse straight and slightly flexed then sideways. Did that before we moved to bending lateral work. Mark NEVER did true LY, we did a good bit of yielding to the leg in bend. Manola M also does yielding to the leg in bend. Etwikken (however you spell it!) used by Walter Zettle is yielding to the leg in bend. Any yielding to the leg in bend can be very valuable, true LY IMO has very little value especially for a horse who has lateral work already established. I never asked the instructor in Spain why she taught true LY other than I can see being able to show the control needed of the four corners of the horse to show LY. Instructor was very insistent on riding precisely, riding circles precisely riding corners precisely, every step on the horse should be precise. Was a good reminder for me.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:15 pm

.
Last edited by Ryeissa on Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Rosie B » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:22 pm

A quick clarification khall - 'entwickeln' is not what you've described. It's the practice of starting a lateral movement, straightening, and then immediately starting it again. You can do SI, Tr, or HP entwickeln. The word entwickeln just means "beginning". It's used to confirm the correct response to the aids that initiate the lateral movement and to develop sensitivity. He describes doing a dozen SIs in this manner down the longside, but when you first start you're lucky to get 2 or 3 correct ones.

I think it's important for developing lateral reach as Flight mentioned. I used to school it every ride, but then stopped for a month or two in favour of going right to SI. And then I was scratching my head wondering why his sensitivity to the lateral leg aids diminished and why he had less reach in his HPs. Doh. So now I am planning to incorporate it in my daily work like piedmont does.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:51 pm

Rosie this is how I have seen and is in WZ book:
This shoulder-in exercise by Walter Zettl requires an immediate response to forward and sideways aids. In "Shoulder-In Entwickeln" you ride shoulder-in on the long side, straighten your horse on the diagonal track, ask for shoulder-in again and ride the movement back to the track.

This is yielding to the leg in SI.

Edited to add: exvet what you are describing to me is not true LY but yielding to the leg in bend. A very valuable tool in our training of horses. I agree with you about mobilizing the shoulders, that is how we develop the horse in collection, both by the engaging aspect of the lateral work but also by being able to mobilize both the shoulders and the HQs of the horse. Having that control of their four corners. Counter SI on circle EXCELLENT for mobilizing the shoulders.
Last edited by khall on Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:06 pm

khall wrote:Rosie this is how I have seen and is in WZ book:
This shoulder-in exercise by Walter Zettl requires an immediate response to forward and sideways aids. In "Shoulder-In Entwickeln" you ride shoulder-in on the long side, straighten your horse on the diagonal track, ask for shoulder-in again and ride the movement back to the track.

This is yielding to the leg in SI.



here is a diagram and text
https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/w ... n-exercise

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:09 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Interesting question.

I guess I do a quick "test" of the availability of leg yield in the warm-up of most rides (could be at walk or trot for a few strides), but if the test is easily passed, I don't do a "test style" leg yield that much! But if the warmup test is failed, I do it quite deliberately as a re-schooling/wake-up to the sideways aids. Like Flight, I am a big fan of leg yield to half pass and half pass to leg yield. I like these in trot and in canter.

I do use "plie" (which is not a leg yield, but it is related in my mind) at the canter routinely in my warm-up.


Our minds are becoming one. I do this same routine with Kiwi-- if the first step reaction of a LY aid is "Yes, ma'am" I leave it alone for the rest of the ride. However, if not, we'll revisit in a longer conversation.

Thematically, I touch on LY in all three gaits, sometimes working sometimes collected sometimes medium-ish. Sometimes in SF, sometimes tracking straight, sometimes on circles/serpentines.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:14 pm

Thanks Rye! Could not find diagram but just the description. MM does something very similar and Mark too. I have done this in hand and US. But it is done in BEND not with the horse straight in the body. I'll have to post some video of riding in Spain where we did true LY. Instructor wanted the horse straight and then able to move sideways in a pretty steep angle. Those PREs are good at that!!

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:15 pm

first of all, I agree with Khall. Leg yield, technically and by definition, is straight. No bend through the body, you cannot leg yield on the circle, cause the horse is curved on a circle. ( i hear people talk of leg yield on the circle often) So as such, yielding to the leg while the horses body is straight, i just do not do it, i do not see any value to it, perhaps to first teach a horse how to move laterally off the leg.

however yielding to the leg with bend, like yielding in SI, or yielding in travers, ( ie travers on the diagonal) I do often. I also do a moving turn on the forehand, to make a square, ( one on each corner) in both walk and trot. to teach the horse to slow the shoulder and speed up the hind end, while remaining in rhythm.

perhaps, occasionally i will leg yield along the rail in a haunches in position, ie keep the horses body straight while going sideways.

having said that, it has value in loosening the shoulder and loosening the hind end, teaching the horse to stay in rhythm going sideways, without the added difficulty of carrying more behind.

it has another use in teaching the horse to move into the outside rein,

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Rosie B » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:30 pm

khall - I see what you are saying. You see that as yielding to the leg in shoulder in, I see it as shoulder in back to the track along a slightly diagonal line. I think it's an important distinction however as in my mind the aids are different... one way you are actively pushing them back to the track. In the other, you are riding shoulder in straight back to the track.

Maybe we are splitting hairs a bit here. :lol:

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:31 pm

here is the diagram, copyright Dressage today (this is just a screen shot)

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:44 pm

Rosie I don't think we are splitting hairs at all. In order to ride the exercise as outlined by WZ (I've ridden in and have watched him teach it) the horse yields to the inside leg SIDEWAYS in SI as they move back to the wall. Western riders call this drift. It deepens the step of the inside leg of the horse, incorporates some sideways movement within SI and IMO is about control. Turning straight from SI onto diagonal then starting SI again off sideline/wall, then moving sideways back to the wall in SI takes good control of the rider over the horse.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:45 pm

Does anyone have video?

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Rosie B » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:00 pm

Thanks for the clarification khall. I too have watched him teach it but haven't ridden it with him. I should go have a re-read to refresh my memory. I should also start riding it. :)

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:25 pm

I tried to find a video but could not. I think it is a great exercise and incorporates so much in the same bend. But if you are working 2-3 level work IMO there are better exercises that challenge the horse. Changing flexion, changing bend, changing the focus of mobilization (shoulders to haunches)

So changing flexion and bend SI to renvere, still engaging the same hind leg, but stepping into the bend is more challenging than stepping away from the bend (SI).

Mobilizing shoulders and haunches (this is from Anja B) renvere to HI. Changes bend, changes flexion, changes which hind leg is engaging.

HP zig zag

Lateral work of any kind on bending lines. Counter SI on circle is one of my favorites.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby exvet » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:55 pm

Actually khall for you on your horses "what I describe" may not be leg yield. In other words maybe you accomplish what I am striving for with bend involved; but, I can promise you that what I'm having to do with more than one of mine is - I am asking the horse to step over sideways and remain straight in order to separate the front two legs, hence keeping the weight evenly distributed over each shoulder. Sometimes it's momentary and sometimes if I have to make a point it's for a few strides.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby DJR » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:06 pm

I use LY in some capacity probably half the time, and sometimes more. For my 7 yr old who has a weaker RH leg, I use LY more as a gymnastic, "physiotherapy" exercise (coupled with SI and travers in the appropriate directions) so I use it more often. I also have added it at the canter (head to the wall LY down the long side) to encourage him to step under and become more responsive in all "four corners" of his body as his condition/training advances.

For my Third/Fourth Level horse, I use LY in the warm up to quicken his hind leg, but quickly move on to SI for that purpose. Like khall, I also use LY coupled with HP to improve the HP (same with SI and HP).
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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:19 pm

exvet wrote: Sometimes it's as simple as riding a leg yield through the corner (think counter bent) and then resume whatever work I was doing at the time;

This is what I was referring to exvet, what you describe here is NOT LY, it is counter bending i.e. bend and a movement I very much agree with. I have no idea exactly what you are saying about LY because you have not describe a movement in which you incorporate LY per se. I would love to read what you do (seriously) no snark. I'm having trouble picturing what you do to help your horses.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby exvet » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:36 pm

Perhaps I should have written THINK counter bent, not actually counter bend. I do know when I'm riding a straightened horse and when I am not. I guess my challenge with communication will simply keep it a mystery to those of you who know how to describe movements and that's not meant as a snark either. It's like describing feel. Some of us simply can't put into words what it feels like in a way that translates to another as it was originally intended. I use the movement leg yield in between moments of bend - whether we're talking SI, HI, HP, RV, or simply riding figures like a circle or a corner when I feel my horse get stuck (or my seat for that matter) in the bend and am losing the shoulders in a way that the two shoulders are moving as one. I find straightening the horse and getting it to move a way from the direction it's collapsing (usually the direction of bend) really helps establish the post on each corner feel that I need/want. Then I need to make sure I keep control of those shoulders using rein, leg and seat so that I don't turn the horse and myself back into that pretzel. I have a tendency to do that when I use too much seat and leg and not enough direct and clear rein aid - If that makes no sense to you.....that's okay. I'm enjoying what I'm doing all the same.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby kande50 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:39 pm

khall wrote:exvet wrote: Sometimes it's as simple as riding a leg yield through the corner (think counter bent) and then resume whatever work I was doing at the time;

This is what I was referring to exvet, what you describe here is NOT LY, it is counter bending i.e. bend and a movement I very much agree with.


I wouldn't consider it counterbending if the horse stayed straight through his body as he yielded.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:45 pm

When I n do so called entwickeling basically I am leg yielding to the wall in shoulder in position so the haunches reach the rail first. At least that is how I ride the exercise.

Entwickeling, ontwikeling , and the way it was spelled before all means the same thing, development.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:37 pm

Yeah I can't spell it worth a dang, but I ride it exactly like you write here so that the horse is in SI when they reach the wall. I do this a good bit with the greener horses in hand.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Sue B » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:51 pm

With Rudy, I have been revisiting ly from the centerline, using it for some of the same reasons as DJR and exvet. At a clinic this spring, I discovered I could not either slow the shoulders or speed up the haunches to keep straight in the ly. Took awhile, but Rudy and I have our act together now. I decided the problem lay not only with me, but with Rudy's lackadaisical response to hh in general. Revisiting this very basic of exercises has brought our communication with each other to a whole 'nother level it seems. To answer the question, at first I did ly off the cl every time I rode in walk and then trot; now I only touch on it once a week or so, or when I'm having a communication issue.

ETA: I have employed Zettle's si/ly pattern ever since it first appeared in DT.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Dresseur » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:56 pm

I wrote a post yesterday while I was on a shoot, but it poofed. I use leg yield on very green horses, but I rarely use leg yield once the horse has a sense of SI and HI. When I do use it, it's a test during warmup to see if the horse is listening to my leg. If I feel as though the horse is not, then I will do a quick stair step or a leg yield away from the wall to make sure the horse is paying attention and responding quickly to my leg aid. I do straighten the lateral work and move the lateral work over or circle out of that when horses are at that point.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:52 pm

I use a very very straight LY to tell where my horse is pushing against me- ie I feel the haunches slide right, or shoulder left. But I agree with Dresseur, I don't use it very much generally.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby mari » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:39 am

I ride LY every ride, in walk and trot mostly, but often also in canter. Odie is sluggish to move sideways, and training HP is no fun for the rider if your horse will go forward but not sideways...
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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby HafDressage » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:05 pm

I do a leg yield or or two in most of my warmups and then do more of it usually in conjunction with the HP. I either will train the HP in leg yield position (Carl Hester does/recommends this a lot) or I will half-pass for a few steps adn then go back to the leg yield, then back to the half pass.

Sideways is really difficult for my compact pumpkin horse, so anything that gets him crossing and supple is helpful. If you have a horse that by nature "evades through sideways" more, then I would probably do less of it.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Chisamba » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:39 pm

HafDressage wrote:I do a leg yield or or two in most of my warmups and then do more of it usually in conjunction with the HP. I either will train the HP in leg yield position (Carl Hester does/recommends this a lot) or I will half-pass for a few steps adn then go back to the leg yield, then back to the half pass.

Sideways is really difficult for my compact pumpkin horse, so anything that gets him crossing and supple is helpful. If you have a horse that by nature "evades through sideways" more, then I would probably do less of it.

Since half pass and keg yield are opposite directions, are you zig zagging, or changing bend in this exercise?

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Dresseur » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:11 pm

The exercise becomes a zig zag. I know a lot of people do this exercise, but personally I don't get it. Usually if the horse is losing bend or falling over, it's because you either need more haunches - which I would refresh with haunches in, or you need to hold the shoulders back - I think it's more beneficial to do HP, then go straight in a haunches in, which is what I'm doing with Miro right now on the HP right.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:17 pm

Dresseur wrote:The exercise becomes a zig zag. I know a lot of people do this exercise, but personally I don't get it. Usually if the horse is losing bend or falling over, it's because you either need more haunches - which I would refresh with haunches in, or you need to hold the shoulders back - I think it's more beneficial to do HP, then go straight in a haunches in, which is what I'm doing with Miro right now on the HP right.


Sidebar: I prefer HP to SI to HP in a staircase pattern over HP to LY in a zigzag. Reinforces the bend while catching the shoulders from doing things they shouldn't.

The benefit of HP to LY is that you can keep going around on the same rein instead of having to change directions, though.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Dresseur » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:21 pm

I use the HP to SI if I am not losing the haunches. The HP to HI is a curative for the horse that wants to leave his haunches in the next county. But IMO both of those are better in terms of fixing issues than the LY... although, maybe I am not seeing or understanding something. I think it's an easier exercise to ride so that clinicians can have people quickly feel like they are fixing the HP.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby musical comedy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:59 pm

Dresseur wrote:I use the HP to SI if I am not losing the haunches. The HP to HI is a curative for the horse that wants to leave his haunches in the next county. But IMO both of those are better in terms of fixing issues than the LY... although, maybe I am not seeing or understanding something. I think it's an easier exercise to ride so that clinicians can have people quickly feel like they are fixing the HP.
If I'm losing bend or the horse starts to go against the inside leg, I can get it back better with LY than with HI or SI. For me, using the LY gets back some suppleness if it is getting lost.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby exvet » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:09 pm

Ditto what mc said. I think too which sequence of exercises to use is really dependent on exactly what you need to fix in relation to the horse's (meaning the one you're riding in that moment) weakness or 'tendency'.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:29 pm

I agree with MC and exvet here but I don't consider that to be a true LY since there bend.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:30 pm

khall wrote:I agree with MC and exvet here but I don't consider that to be a true LY since there bend.


I've seen this stated a couple times on this thread and others. What is a LY with some amount of bend called?

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby kande50 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:44 pm

I just call it yielding in or out, but I think some do call it a leg yield on the circle, or while maintaining the bend.

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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:20 pm

Per USEF rule book:
Rule Book describes the leg yield as a movement in which “the horse is kept almost straight, except for slight flexion of the poll away from the direction in which he moves, and the inside legs pass and cross in front of the outside legs with the forehand slightly in advance of the quarters.” A well-ridden leg yield maintains throughness and impulsion of the horse while refining the rider’s correct and effective use of the half halt. Leg yield is not a lateral movement, due to lack of bend, but it does prepare the horse for the true lateral movements in Second Level.

No bend in a true LY, but what most of us are describing is yielding to the leg with bend which IMO is beneficial. So when we HP and zig zag back in "LY" there is bend, which we use to reinforce the bend for the HP. To me it is similar to the etwikken (sp) where you yield in SI back to the wall. So the horse has bend i.e. lateral and yielding sideways.

exvet
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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby exvet » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:39 pm

But khall, what I'm referring to doesn't have any bend - I will use true leg yield in between the lateral movements which do have bend. In those moments I DON'T WANT BEND AT ALL I want the horse to have each shoulder separate and out on each corner with no bend in the body and many times no bend in the poll either. I can't speak for the others but I have not referred to doing a or the zig zag in reference to what I've been trying to describe. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, I feel pretty confident that what I'm doing is a leg yield in those moments and that my choice to do so is working. I can only add that my riding instructor agrees.

khall
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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby khall » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:07 pm

Chill exvet, you were agreeing like I was with MC which was in reference to HP/LY zig zag. I too feel like I can get better reaction with yielding to the leg in bend from HP (so HP R, yield L with R bend) when I feel I am losing the bend and/or the inside shoulder is getting in the way. I have tried the step HP to SI to HP and that never did feel quite right. I have not tried HP to HI to HP like what Dresseur wrote. My biggest issue is usually getting them off the inside shoulder. Mark had me one clinic do canter through short side, trot once I got to long side and then HP R (R tends to be his harder side for some reason) Worked like a charm, activated his LH which is where the problem was. Have not had as much success with that since then, but now riding with spurs HP R is so much better! Weird because L is usually his side where he wants to lay on the shoulder. Could be my left leg is not as strong (right handed). I do not use true LY in this work. I have not used true LY that much at all with my own horses. Even my filly, WIH she is bent and then yielding away in a SI position. I use true lateral work to mobilize and control the shoulders with counter SI and SI to RV being IMO the most useful.

exvet
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Re: Leg Yeild: How much, how often?

Postby exvet » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:54 pm

LOL khall, no problem.......I'll just keep riding and spend the majority of what little free time I have on the horse. I'm sure to make more progress that way ;)


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