Interesting read, discussion?

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Interesting read, discussion?

Postby khall » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:01 pm

http://myhorseforum.com/threads/three-m ... ng.538212/

Never tried the flechi droit at least meaning to! Yes to the strong trot!! and to lateral work on the circle is a big yes from me:)

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Dresseur » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:29 pm

I don't understand the fléchi droit at all. In my book, that is just neck bending. I don't understand what gymnastic benefit there would be from disconnecting the neck from the rest of the body of the horse. They talk about that it tests stretching the outside of the horse - not really, you need the whole of the outside of the horse to stretch. In this position, you can't recycle energy or do a proper hh - it's just hand riding. And, the horses that I have ridden that were trained using that technique were the most disconnected, posed horses that I have ever felt.

For me, it's a maybe to the strong trot, I personally call that a lengthening (I know the writer says it's different), which turns into a medium, which eventually turns into a full extension. I always test a bit forward into this type of trot to see if I have the push from behind. But, I'm one that does check to see if I can get neck extension. The reason I say maybe is because I'm careful on the horses that tend to hover because slowing it is a recipe for disaster.

Lateral work on a circle is a maybe for me as well, simply because you have to be a damn good rider to catch the evasions that are naturally easier for the horse when doing lateral work on a circle vs when you can use the wall to help. And, it's better for more advanced horse. For instance... a shoulder in on a circle usually turns into the haunches sliding to the outside for false neck bend for most riders that I've seen attempting this. However, I personally LOVE doing haunches in on a circle and I incorporate that a lot.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby khall » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:53 pm

Dressseur totally agree on the flechi droit, IMO not what I want my horses to learn!

Strong trot, what spoke to me the most is the up and open which is where I have to go with Rip. I've seen where some trainers (Mark was definitely not a proponent of this though) uses the strong trot to teach the horse the reach out the shoulder. One exercise later on in the thread was to CSI through a 15 m circle then strong trot across a short diagonal back to CSI other side. I could definitely see the benefit of this exercise.

Lateral on bending lines, I've done it for years now and was a big deal in Mark's training. SI change out new circle, same bend to CSI was a big one, HI spiral in and SI spiral out (need to go back to this one been awhile), R on the circle the most difficult lateral movement on bending line. Mark would have us do SI on circle 20 m, to 10 m, to HI on circle. Back and forth. I know some believe lateral on bending line is too difficult and not fair for the horse. MM is one. Watching Anja B she does so much lateral on bending lines, her training most reminds me of Mark's work.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 pm

I had an instructor that had me doing fléchi droit though she never called it that. As I understood it, it was a way to teach the rider how to ride the shoulders. I can clearly remember her saying you should be able to put the neck anywhere and the body should not change one bit. When you can do that you are riding the shoulders/body and able to isolate the parts of the horse with your riding. If that exercise has benefit to the horse it would be news to me and I would be skeptical. It is for the rider.

Then she taught me the change of JUST flexion... nothing else changes. Again, it is a rider exercise not meant as a training exercise for the horse. This instructor was big on ALWAYS being in SF so essentially unless you are doing lateral work, the body must never deviate from SF. The moving the neck and changing the flexion were expected to be done in SF at all times.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:23 am

I use flech a droit often . My horse is not disconnected nor posed, thank you. Iparticularly like to use it before changing flexion across the centerline in serpentine.
It is used very often by slightly overflexing and then straightening the horse in position on the rail. Any time you take a counter flexion you have used a degree of flex a droit. In fact, separating flexion from turning is done by every dressage rider whether they know it or not. To what degree is different from rider to rider. Now it can, like anything, be overused, result in evasions etc, but name an exercise that cannot.

Lateral work on the circle. Also use probably every ride.

Strong trot, useful with short striding quick . Most useful on a long trail where the horse can take time to learn to just open up. Horses that love the strong trot need less of it.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:37 am

In my.opinion the horse functions like a train with three cars. Head and neck being one, shoulders being the second, and hindquarters being the third. All attached but able to position separately. Most horses will lean in pr lean out in the shoulder no matter how well you ride the nose and hind quarter. If you have a horse that uses power against you, esp big draft types who.like to lean like my Irish horse. Flex a droit can disengage the power, like putting a car in neutral, while you soften and loosen the base of the neck, but of course you need to be able to put it back in gear , ie connect it from hind forward, when ready.

OTOH, to the negative, I have seen some horses so disconnected that they bolt through the shoulder and can barely be stopped. So it has negatives if overused or incorrectly used.

Since the exercise was so thoroughly dismissed and insulted I will be insulting myself. If you cannot connect a disengaged shoulder, you should probably give up dressage because every horse will at some time learn the evasion you cannot correct.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:38 am

All of what Chisamba wrote agrees with my understanding of this. I remembered another thing that instructor (A) had me do... ride serpentines with the neck to the left (or the right). The purpose was to teach me to ride the shoulders/body no matter what the line of travel.

I interpret these types of exercises as overkill that quickly gets you up to speed and makes correct riding easy by comparison. But it can be misused and one instructor (B) seemed to use them to overface me and never came to a learning moment like with instructor A. Instructor A knew how to present this material and I learned from it. Instructor B had several long term students who never got anywhere.

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Dresseur » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:01 pm

Chisamba, I meant no insult! I will admit, I have negative experiences with horses that have been trained using that flexion in the extreme and with people who have used that method exclusively. I will counter flex here and there, but I do have a hard time seeing the value in putting the neck at a 90 degree angle unless the horse displays some of the issues that you discussed.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:13 pm

Warning, possible tangent ahead:

I have really struggled with the concept of hand/leg. Not so much intellectually but practically. there are two ways I like to frame this discussion

Idea 1: Supple the neck (gently) to create space for the hose to come through the back (neck: primary cause)

Idea 2: ride to focus on the hind end stepping under since neck tension is a secondary cause, my horse likes to use it as a 5th leg- take the horse forward and the 5th leg tendency goes away as a by product

I have had both scenarios in my horse. The hardest thing for me is to find that happy medium where the horse is between the aids and you can address both of these reasons at the same time
Last edited by Ryeissa on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1606
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:44 pm

Chisamba wrote: Horses that love the strong trot need less of it.

So, so true! I have used the strong trot with my current horse (who needs to learn to extend/reach more out of the shoulder), but did not use it so much with other horses.

I did not know the term flech a droit, but had been taught like Tsavo "you should be able to put the neck anywhere and the body should not change one bit." Chisamba, I like your point that "separating flexion from turning is done by every dressage rider whether they know it or not."

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 871
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby musical comedy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:02 pm

Dresseur wrote:I don't understand the fléchi droit at all.
Maybe that's because it means different things to different people. :D I am assuming Khall is picking up these topics from COTH? That's where I heard of it for the first time. They have a legerete rider posting there and a couple French posters that are into it, but even they aren't on the same page.

What I see from the legerete photos, is ugly and I don't see the purpose. They bend the neck inside and keep it there while often holding the outside rein away from the neck, probably so they can keep the horse on the track. Even the more accomplished legerete riders are routinely doing these rein movements while riding. P.Karl even does it. The only time my outside rein would go wide is when riding a very green horse that doesn't have steering.

That said, I read somewhere that this flechi droit came from the old french flexions. Old pics of paintings were put up on coth to show this.

In any case, my trainer is French, although not French 'Classical'. We do something in my trot warmup that might classify as some form of flechi droit. To be honest, I don't care for what we do, but I listen and do it. What I do is big circles and figure 8's, keeping the outside rein against the neck, taking the inside rein wide like turning a key (without pulling back), and then releasing. It's a quick bend and release. This is all done in a low and deep position. It is supposed to be unlocking the poll. If the nose comes in, then it's done wrong. I will say that it does loosen up my horse and the trot gets more forward and straight.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:28 pm

I think one can get a really crooked horse if they aren't watching that outside shoulder....I have never had success with "big movement" type work that takes away the straighenss aspect. Shoulder in and haunches in are really good communicators of these same ideas, not sure why we need dramatic hand motions that are very odd.
I do flexions and teeny tinny itty bitty versions of these things, but there is a reason we want the elbows basically at the side, straight line from bit to elbow etc. Too much happy dancing around in the saddle flapping reins is distracting to the horse, my horse anyways would be very cross.

I'm trying to gain stability, not motion. I suppose if you start from a stoic horse and rider with less tendency to motion than me, it will come across completely differently?

This all would be way too handsy for me, but again with a horse that is less active and reactive-- could be ok?

Yes, I can move the shoulders, hips and ribcages all separately- can't everyone?

I like the ideas, just not the implementation and style. The themes are valid.

Ponichiwa
Herd Member
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:39 pm

There's gymnastic value to flexions, especially moving. I'm pretty sure that I've recommended counterflexing in serpentines on this board within the last 6 weeks. But what I do not understand is the focus on disconnecting the neck from the rest of the body of the horse that I see in the people who say things like "fleche droit". The last thing I want is a horse that can rubberneck away from being truly connected.

I saw the COTH thread on this topic but am still clueless. For all the talk of lightness, that's a lot of exaggerated hand aids.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby khall » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:14 pm

Flexion and bending and counter bending and even counter flexion (where you have bend one direction but flexed the other) all make sense to me. But I have been taught to ride the horse as one, not in pieces, taking the neck away (their balancing rod) has got to be disconcerting to them. The over bending (since I count flexion is at C1-occiput joint) like is done by PK I have never understood or liked. Where he bends the neck in the middle almost to 90 deg, the over bending at the base of the neck again means you are riding the horse in two different pieces. I do not want that, I want to influence the entire horse as a whole and yes I can fix the escaping shoulder, that was one of Rip's big deals and Gaila's to a lesser degree as a young horse. I fixed it by riding him straighter or even counter bent but not by extreme bending. I've seen too much of it used by the RK proponents and NH world.

Here it is with PK riding the bay horse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OgBfZhzm18

I have on occasion seen Mark over bend a horse when first starting to learn the stepping over in hand, but that is done for a short time for education to show the horse how to step under center mass. Usually remedial of very green horses, then the outside rein comes into play as the horse learns how to step over and under.

I guess I am surprised you use this method chisamba can I ask where it comes from?

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:53 pm

When you learn to ride putting the neck anywhere and nothing else changes, then it becomes easy to put the neck EXACTLY where it belongs. It makes the right thing seem easy so you ingrain it in your body. This is a RIDER exercise in my opinion.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby kande50 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:21 pm

Ryeissa wrote:not sure why we need dramatic hand motions that are very odd.


Probably because what seems odd to some seems like an improvement to others.

I think exaggerated aids/cues are often attempts to help make things clearer to the horse, and aren't (or shouldn't be) anything other than temporary training aids that are soon faded to more subtle aids/cues.

I do flexions and teeny tinny itty bitty versions of these things, but there is a reason we want the elbows basically at the side, straight line from bit to elbow etc. Too much happy dancing around in the saddle flapping reins is distracting to the horse, my horse anyways would be very cross.


Yes, and I think the more obvious aids are often intended to be "distracting", because the reason the trainer is exaggerating them is because he wants the horse to notice and respond to them.

And of course, the problem with dressage is that we're always moving on to something that's not easy for the horse, so we're always trying to find ways to get new ideas across to the horse.

Ideally, we'd be more patient and would never exaggerate the aids because we wouldn't be pushing our horses that hard. But few are either that patient, or that willing to settle for whatever the horse can easily give.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:11 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:not sure why we need dramatic hand motions that are very odd.


Probably because what seems odd to some seems like an improvement to others.

I think exaggerated aids/cues are often attempts to help make things clearer to the horse, and aren't (or shouldn't be) anything other than temporary training aids that are soon faded to more subtle aids/cues.

I do flexions and teeny tinny itty bitty versions of these things, but there is a reason we want the elbows basically at the side, straight line from bit to elbow etc. Too much happy dancing around in the saddle flapping reins is distracting to the horse, my horse anyways would be very cross.


Yes, and I think the more obvious aids are often intended to be "distracting", because the reason the trainer is exaggerating them is because he wants the horse to notice and respond to them.

And of course, the problem with dressage is that we're always moving on to something that's not easy for the horse, so we're always trying to find ways to get new ideas across to the horse.

Ideally, we'd be more patient and would never exaggerate the aids because we wouldn't be pushing our horses that hard. But few are either that patient, or that willing to settle for whatever the horse can easily give.


But there is no point to those movements, they don't work towards the goals. they are hand riding

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:27 pm

Well to answer Khall, first Flex adroit was how i was taught it, which i believe literally translates to clever flexion. When i was long listed on the South African olympic development team, during the time of Apartheid, the SANEF ( south African national equestrian federation) had clinicians come out to SA to improve the national quality of riding, as they were very eager not to be excluded from the Olympics. These sponsored clinicians would travel to the different regions and work with the riders listed in the development teams, so I had the opportunity to ride with riders who were of an international level, on a monthly basis. Unfortunately usually there was a different clinician every time. So one clinician would have us all slow slow slow way down, and the next would say forward forward forward, and so we constantly had changing influences, despite that we got a lot of very good assistance in developing our horses. One of the ladies that came out was quite old, she was a grand dame from Switzerland but she was german. I do not remember any of the names of the riders that came out, not one, i should have kept a journal. Peter, my trainer, had a very big heavy hanoverian who was so so so strong and hard in the hand, I cannot even express fully how heavy and against the bit he was. So Dame said to him, lighter, get him lighter, get him lighter, and finally Peter said you cannot get this horse lighter, so she said " Vershwinde!!" I remember being concerned that some one so old was going to get on such a big brute. Well, every time he got strong she did a flech adroit, not 90 degrees, i have never used a 90 degree bend, simply about thirty to fourty five degrees. she put the horse basically in neutral, took away his power, disconnected him , all those things you as so certain is death to dressage. within Five minutes the horse was chewing and stretching, and withing ten minutes he was fingertip light and connected, something he had not been his whole career. I will say that she taught it with the outside rein against the neck, not pulling back but moving the hand up, down, in and out, more so than is traditionally taught. she said that it was used by the Berlins school, and that flexions had an important place in riding up until there got to be such a disagreement between the french school and the german school. By the way she considered Reiner Kimke a farm boy with hands like a butcher.

now to change the topic, in my opinion everyone hand rides. regardless if if you push your seat toward your hand, or if you close your legs and do not move your hands, or if you actually move your hands, if you have your hands on the reins and they are connected, you are hand riding.

Secondly, i feel that horses need to learn to stretch, follow the hand out, or down, and in my experience having some open minded use of flex adroit is very useful in this.

Cathy Morelli taught a version of this, but to be honest, a lot of her students would disconnect the horse and never be able to get it back together again.

I think some french schools have this similar problem.

anyway, i use flexions like i would use a strong brandy, put a little in the cake. add a little flavor and lighten the batter, but not enough to break the batter

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:31 pm

by the way, she also taught flexions on the ground, lifting the bit off the bar of the mouth to stop pulling, and stretching the horse out, both down, and level and up, in hand, before mounting. However her whole influence of riding was German, she did not claim to be Legrete, to have studied with any one french, and said that it was sad that riding had forgotten so much of what created a horse that was a pleasure to ride.

I have actually seen SRS riders use extra flexion and then straightening, to take some of the huge power out of the necks of their baroque stallions

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby khall » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:37 pm

chisamba, was it at the base of the neck or the middle of the neck? Like I said I've seen Mark do this to teach a horse to step over and under with one who was very green or remedial. So yes I can see the value of this for a remedial or difficult horse done at the base of the neck, cannot see the value done like PK does it and to the extreme he does it. Have also seen a picture of Buck B doing the same with a horse, middle of the neck very extreme bend. I just cannot see the value of this with most horses though. Especially ones who already want to over bend in the neck. So from what you are saying it is definitely used for the horse, not the rider. Interesting, thanks for the explanation.

Yes, I know that the Germans also had their own in hand flexions. I do believe they are not in much use or taught today though.

galopp
Herd Member
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby galopp » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:19 pm

Flechi droit is not bending the neck at the withers, which would be simple manipulation of the neck l/r as is recommended by some ldr riders. Instead, it is more calculated bending more in the front of the neck (similiar to positioning laterally) but much more clear with the base of the neck centered in the chest, and also requiring an upright/open bearing. It is more seen in neck/bearing reining with clear aids. And it puts the horse MORE into the control of the outside rein as a result. Most clearly shown within in hand work (from high and lighter, to lateral flexible (flechi droit), to extension of the outline. Indeed the germans did work on lateral flexions, albeit more lightly (and flipping the nuchal ligament in any change of line/flexion); and that clarity in training seems to have faded (esp as the horse grew compressed which makes that change of flexion more problematic). And for me lateral work on circles (SI to counter si, and travers to renvers, are the most suppling/collecting/traditional movements there are, cannot image life w/o them.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:12 am

Thanks gallop. Nice to see you reply

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:46 am

Ryeissa wrote:
But there is no point to those movements, they don't work towards the goals. they are hand riding


Of course there's a point to them, because they're all about trying to make it easier for the horse to figure out what he needs to do to avoid the aversives. They're no more about hand riding than any other use of the reins is about hand riding.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:37 am

What is hand riding?

My definition is doing with the hands anything that should be done with seat or leg.

Therefore things that are hand riding include:
backward hand
seesawing
closing the hand (which should already be closed)

Things which are not hand riding because you can't do them with seat or leg:
inside flection
turning the key
release after HH

Just my opinion.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:41 am

I dont agree with Galopp on many things, but I do agree that it puts the horse more in control of the outside rein, which results in a better connection. Ot improves the horses understanding of the role of the outside rein.

Bend to the base of the neck makes you lose the shoulder. Bend to the middle if the neck makes you really ride the shoulder with the outside rein, I might need wrong but if the horse is going to pull on you, they grab the bit with the bars of their mouth and a tight jaw and lean. If a horse has the bit slightly lifted, the neck bent but the shoulders straight. It's like taking the lean away so you can reach the horse the outside rein gently.

Again I do not use it the same way as galopp or PK. Less bend, and not forcing up or in front of the vertical. I also allow the horse to stretch by lengthening the outside rein and letting the horse reach out and down

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:49 am

In my.opinion hand riding is anything you do with your hands . Raise your hands? Lower your hands? Use any of the 5 rein aids, I have had this argument before so I wont do it again but anyone who says they dont hand ride, I probably disbelieve. ,

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Flight » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:54 am

I"ve been taught it and use it, although I didn't know it was called this. I use it typically at the start of the session, and more like Chisamba has described.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:53 pm

Chisamba wrote:In my.opinion hand riding is anything you do with your hands . Raise your hands? Lower your hands? Use any of the 5 rein aids, I have had this argument before so I wont do it again but anyone who says they dont hand ride, I probably disbelieve. ,


Well when people speak of "hand riding" they are referring to incorrect things. They are being pejorative. So while you are technically correct that anything you do with your hands is hand riding, that is not what people are referring to when they use it. I have never heard anyone use the term for anything except bad/incorrect riding.

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 871
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby musical comedy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:57 pm

Flight wrote:I"ve been taught it and use it, although I didn't know it was called this.
Everyone here is not on the same page as to what this is. It means different things and is open to interpretation. I don't think any of us are using what the P. Karl group is doing. I certainly don't see what they do is helping any connection to the outside rein. The opposite. Even P. Karl goes around riding with a leading/open outside rein at times on his advance horse. Look at these pics. A few of these riders are top instructors that teach legerate to the instructors courses. I don't think any of us here are doing this, are you?

https://www.facebook.com/pg/EcoledeLege ... 7245156027

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:04 pm

If there is any benefit to the horse from this it is to supple. That said, I missed that benefit when I was taught it and was just using it to learn to ride the body and not the neck/head, arguably a key skill.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:08 pm

Hand riding is front to back riding. Stopping thoroughness, dropping the inside shoulder, preventing an open throatlach and bascule/ telescoping of the neck over the withers.

I have not had good success using more than mini flexions in my work.

Bending with the inside rein causes a while lot of issues personally in my riding.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:30 pm

Anything you can do to get the horse correctly on the outside rein that works is probably okay. This assumes you have a "target" such that when the horse does go to the outside rein you recognize it and keep him there with elasticity and don't abandon ship (my specialty for years). Getting it is one thing; keeping it is another which is reason number 5,008 633 why dressage is annoying as hell.

Circles put the horse in the outside rein. Riding in position puts the horse in the outside rein. Nobody is getting anywhere without this ability to straighten.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:43 pm

Tsavo wrote:Anything you can do to get the horse correctly on the outside rein that works is probably okay. This assumes you have a "target" such that when the horse does go to the outside rein you recognize it and keep him there with elasticity and don't abandon ship (my specialty for years). Getting it is one thing; keeping it is another which is reason number 5,008 633 why dressage is annoying as hell.

Circles put the horse in the outside rein. Riding in position puts the horse in the outside rein. Nobody is getting anywhere without this ability to straighten.


yes but you see a lot of riders letting the horse go through the outside rein, its as common as , well, breathing. that is why you see so many misshapen circles, and if you run a google search on riding in position, you will find nothing. How do i know, i asked my riding kids to research riding in position, and come back the next week and let me know what they found. i thought they had to be wrong so i did a search myself lol.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:50 pm

i am going to repeat something i already said, but in its own little box so that it does not get lost. there are actually more than one way to get something, fortunately there are multiple ways to accomplish things.

there are many ways to learn, and many ways to teach, and that some people do better one way and others another as are horses.

we are all imperfect. it might be shocking to some, but I have been wrong once or twice ;) and i bet any honest person would admit the same. Just because I have a favorite route to a destination, does not mean it is the only route.

I do , however, admire open mindedness. immediate dismissal of something different does not make one right, it just makes one limited

User avatar
musical comedy
500 post plus club
Posts: 871
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby musical comedy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:56 pm

Chisamba wrote: if you run a google search on riding in position, you will find nothing. How do i know, i asked my riding kids to research riding in position, and come back the next week and let me know what they found. i thought they had to be wrong so i did a search myself lol.
Not true. I quickly found something as follows:

"In position” or “second position.” In this exercise, the rider asks the horse to place his outside hind leg forward between his forelegs, which brings the hind legs closer together (see p. 66). The inside hind and fore travel straight on the same path. When the horse correctly engages his outside hind leg, he can bring the inner hind leg forward and under the belly, lowering his inner hip.”

Source: https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/alpha-omega-29909

After this comes acquired or functional straightness. Now, the inside shoulder is placed in front of the inside hind, with a slight flexion of the poll to the inside (riding in position).

Source: http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/Stra ... tness.html

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:12 pm

In position is just a mild shoulder fore, two tracks.

Learning about the Spiral seat really helps this all come together to get the horse straight and working from the outside rein.

Anatomy of Riding is an excellent book that discusses the spiral seat

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2472
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Chisamba » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:05 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Chisamba wrote: if you run a google search on riding in position, you will find nothing. How do i know, i asked my riding kids to research riding in position, and come back the next week and let me know what they found. i thought they had to be wrong so i did a search myself lol.
Not true. I quickly found something as follows:

"In position” or “second position.” In this exercise, the rider asks the horse to place his outside hind leg forward between his forelegs, which brings the hind legs closer together (see p. 66). The inside hind and fore travel straight on the same path. When the horse correctly engages his outside hind leg, he can bring the inner hind leg forward and under the belly, lowering his inner hip.”

Source: https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/alpha-omega-29909

After this comes acquired or functional straightness. Now, the inside shoulder is placed in front of the inside hind, with a slight flexion of the poll to the inside (riding in position).

Source: http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/Stra ... tness.html


so for us with search inadequacies, how did you search, as in what exactly did you search for, because i got a million things on rider position, and nothing at all on riding IN position. my husband just taught me the importance of quote marks and plus signs in searching, never mind. i found your search

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Its also called first position in Google searches

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:35 pm

I searched on "riding in position"

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ridi ... e&ie=UTF-8

A bunch of stuff comes up on straightness. No coincidence there.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:39 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Tsavo wrote:Anything you can do to get the horse correctly on the outside rein that works is probably okay. This assumes you have a "target" such that when the horse does go to the outside rein you recognize it and keep him there with elasticity and don't abandon ship (my specialty for years). Getting it is one thing; keeping it is another which is reason number 5,008 633 why dressage is annoying as hell.

Circles put the horse in the outside rein. Riding in position puts the horse in the outside rein. Nobody is getting anywhere without this ability to straighten.


yes but you see a lot of riders letting the horse go through the outside rein, its as common as , well, breathing. that is why you see so many misshapen circles,


Yes and you see people who are blocking on the outside rein like I was gigged on.

The fact that riders let horses run thru and block horses doesn't negate the necessity of having the horse in the outside rein. I read in DT that IW gave a clinic and mentioned inside leg to outside rein thousands of times. There is a reason for that.

The fléchi droit thing teaches riding the body which included the shoulder. If you can do that then there is less chance of screwing it up with rein in my opinion. Maybe if I had revisited that work I wouldn't have gotten gigged on blocking outside rein. Who knows. Dressage is annoying.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:02 pm

This is exactly my point in the other thread about managing all 4 sides of the horse at once. Lateral and longitudinal. You said focus on one thing. This is why you can't, really long term.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:12 pm

The one thing you can focus on is riding the horse in one piece. One piece that is in the outside rein. That is one thing. It is possible to hold a horse in position with mostly seat and a little outside rein if necessary eventually.

There is lumping and there is splitting. While riding can be broken down into individual aids, it is the interplay that is the riding.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:33 pm

Tsavo wrote:There is lumping and there is splitting. While riding can be broken down into individual aids, it is the interplay that is the riding.


I think balance before movement is more about splitting, while balance from movement is more about lumping. Not that bfm can't be broken down (split) from within the context of movement, but I'm not sure there can be much, if any lumping in the context of bbm.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:39 pm

Nobody is doing BBM after the first few weeks and some never screw around with it and get up the levels.

BBM is not a thing that warrants discussion because nobody who knows what they are doing is doing it for any time except the first few weeks. EVERYONE is doing BIM 99.999999% of the training time except the unfortunate ilk who were stuck doing Walk-Halt-Walk forever in lieu of being taught how to ride.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:52 pm

Tsavo wrote:Nobody is doing BBM after the first few weeks and some never screw around with it and get up the levels.

BBM is not a thing that warrants discussion because nobody who knows what they are doing is doing it for any time except the first few weeks. EVERYONE is doing BIM 99.999999% of the training time except the unfortunate ilk who were stuck doing Walk-Halt-Walk forever in lieu of being taught how to ride.


Aren't you leaving out those who start with BBM and stick with it right through the high school movements, or isn't that considered getting up the levels?

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:55 pm

They are not doing BBM up through the levels. A horse loses balance in a PSG test at least a few times and those people never come back to halt. That's because they fix the balance WITHIN the movement.

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:56 pm

This is a faux debate. As faux as creationism versus evolution.

kande50
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Williamstown, MA

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby kande50 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:11 pm

Tsavo wrote:This is a faux debate. As faux as creationism versus evolution.


Maybe because I'm talking about "classical" dressage in which the horses actually collect, and you're talking about competitive dressage in which they stay on the forehand?

Tsavo
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:19 pm

kande50 wrote:
Tsavo wrote:This is a faux debate. As faux as creationism versus evolution.


Maybe because I'm talking about "classical" dressage in which the horses actually collect, and you're talking about competitive dressage in which they stay on the forehand?


No.

Ryeissa
500 post plus club
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Interesting read, discussion?

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:33 am

kande50 wrote:
Tsavo wrote:This is a faux debate. As faux as creationism versus evolution.


Maybe because I'm talking about "classical" dressage in which the horses actually collect, and you're talking about competitive dressage in which they stay on the forehand?


Is this a joke?


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests