A good read, Carl Hester

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khall
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A good read, Carl Hester

Postby khall » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:24 am

Some great take home information in this article.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2018/0 ... exclusive/

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:25 pm

I saved and printed this! He is the best, I am sooooooooooooo happy we have someone like him to learn from. I think he's saving dressage.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby PaulaO » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:46 pm

Carl Hester is such a joy in the world of dressage. I like that he "tiddles around the barn" with his horses.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Tuddy » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:57 pm

I liked this article...

But every rider, except the ones riding in a double bride, all had their horses mouths strapped shut.

Just sends me.

That's it, carry on.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:10 pm

Tuddy wrote:I liked this article...

But every rider, except the ones riding in a double bride, all had their horses mouths strapped shut.

Just sends me.

That's it, carry on.

I didn't notice that...?
Carl doesn't really have a say in tack choices day on and day out. ..and he would 99% err on the side of diplomacy and not bring it up at this style of event
I have been in a Conrad Schumacher Clinic where he pulled off a tight noseband, but I don't think that it's always the case with well-publicized clinics

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby kande50 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:35 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Carl doesn't really have a say in tack choices day on and day out. ..and he would 99% err on the side of diplomacy and not bring it up at this style of event.


Unfortunately, that kind of "diplomacy" is what's led to the sad state that dressage is in today. It's as if the only ones that are left are those who are so "diplomatic" that they'll continue to ignore what's happening to the horses in favor of keeping the humans happy. And what's ironic about it is that that kind of spinelessness doesn't actually keep anyone happy.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:10 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:Carl doesn't really have a say in tack choices day on and day out. ..and he would 99% err on the side of diplomacy and not bring it up at this style of event.


Unfortunately, that kind of "diplomacy" is what's led to the sad state that dressage is in today. It's as if the only ones that are left are those who are so "diplomatic" that they'll continue to ignore what's happening to the horses in favor of keeping the humans happy. And what's ironic about it is that that kind of spinelessness doesn't actually keep anyone happy.


Have you read his book? Did you read the article? Please read both.... yes, I believe one needs to be diplomatic IN SOME SITUATIONS. Did you read where he blasted the "big movers" and fads du jour?

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Happen-Ca ... 1409147673

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:49 pm

I've just been back through the article and I'm not seeing anything particularly egregious about the nosebands? Yes, they all have flashes on, but nothing looks cranked and I'm not looking at a bunch of miserable horses.

And Kande, that's kind of a weird thing to say about CH--he's probably single-handedly done more for the welfare of the horse in modern dressage than just about anyone else I can think of.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby musical comedy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:08 pm

Moutaineer wrote:I've just been back through the article and I'm not seeing anything particularly egregious about the nosebands? Yes, they all have flashes on...
For some, just the presence of a flash is a negative. No point in trying to support its' use.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Tuddy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:54 pm

I don't have issues with nosebands, I just don't like seeing the mouth being closed shut.

Maybe I don't understand what a flash does, but it just isn't my cup of tea. I want my horse to be able chew and yawn if that is what it needs.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Tuddy wrote:I don't have issues with nosebands, I just don't like seeing the mouth being closed shut.

Maybe I don't understand what a flash does, but it just isn't my cup of tea. I want my horse to be able chew and yawn if that is what it needs.


I think that it is so hard to tell why a horse is showing tension, the horses that show mouth tension are also showing other areas of tension/imbalance in the body so it's not easy to say it's due to the flash, in fact I say that it's not. This is a high intensity crowd and a real learning env't.

I know that in clinics I never can show the exact same relaxation at home, it's just not reality. I have way worse moments than these guys.
Also, the spirit of the training I can really get behind- good riding themes.

This is in Australia, too. So it's a fly in and fly out sort of masterclass. I don't have any idea who those riders are, but overall I liked the article a lot! Go carl. I just love him. He is saving dressage.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby kande50 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Moutaineer wrote:I've just been back through the article and I'm not seeing anything particularly egregious about the nosebands? Yes, they all have flashes on, but nothing looks cranked and I'm not looking at a bunch of miserable horses.


I don't know how miserable they are or aren't because there's no way to know. I do however, think that taking the nosebands off would be a very good first step, if for no other reason than because it would help make at least that one rule (about how tight) so much less subjective. And as long as the rule was the same for everyone I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

And Kande, that's kind of a weird thing to say about CH--he's probably single-handedly done more for the welfare of the horse in modern dressage than just about anyone else I can think of.


I was referring to the "kind of diplomacy" that has led to what we have now rather than CH personally.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:26 pm

kande50 wrote:
Moutaineer wrote:I've just been back through the article and I'm not seeing anything particularly egregious about the nosebands? Yes, they all have flashes on, but nothing looks cranked and I'm not looking at a bunch of miserable horses.


I don't know how miserable they are or aren't because there's no way to know. I do however, think that taking the nosebands off would be a very good first step, if for no other reason than because it would help make at least that one rule (about how tight) so much less subjective. And as long as the rule was the same for everyone I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

And Kande, that's kind of a weird thing to say about CH--he's probably single-handedly done more for the welfare of the horse in modern dressage than just about anyone else I can think of.


I was referring to the "kind of diplomacy" that has led to what we have now rather than CH personally.


Well I for one was extremely pleased with the world Equestrian Games riding, it's so great to see that Harmony come back.
In reality, if Carl has truly had some reservations about the nosebands, it may have been a situation to take privately to the participants
Keep in mind that we don't know what transpires in these sort of events behind the scenes
This is all very hypothetical of course, but just because he doesn't address it publicly doesn't mean he doesn't address it at all. Being someone who works in career where I also have to be diplomatic I can see exactly why he would pick and choose not to broadcast things in front of thousands of people and the biggest Clinic Australia has had in years.
I can see that really Burning Bridges in many different ways, and that just wouldn't be good for anybody. Also I'm sure that these are either professionals themselves or working very closely with professionals daily, and that would be the place to talk about tack
Again read his book he talks a lot about his philosophy of training and I think he's the last person on Earth who would crank the nose bands shut

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby musical comedy » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:45 pm

Ryeissa wrote:In reality, if Carl has truly had some reservations about the nosebands, it may have been a situation to take privately to the participants
I doubt he has any issues with flash straps because there are photos of Charlotte riding with them, including the young Valegro. The fact is that the vast majority of show riders using snaffles use a flash.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:33 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:In reality, if Carl has truly had some reservations about the nosebands, it may have been a situation to take privately to the participants
I doubt he has any issues with flash straps because there are photos of Charlotte riding with them, including the young Valegro. The fact is that the vast majority of show riders using snaffles use a flash.


sorry I wasn't clear, TIGHT flashes, which I didn't see in the pics.... sorry I was not explaining myself... I was just going down a trail of logic to entertain the current discussion

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby khall » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:22 am

This is what I have learned over the years, we are rarely going to agree 100% with what a trainer will bring to the table. CH is dealing with competition dressage horses at a high level (usually international) so while he may do things that I don't 100% agree with, there is much more that I do agree with than not. That is big in my book coming from watching Anke etc with extreme RK. The flash nosebands (one was actually in a drop) is standard equipment even for some well known "classical trainers" (Manola M). I personally do not use them and have seen Mark pull one off during a lesson (saw him take off spurs of one rider too) but have in the past.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby kande50 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:53 am

Ryeissa wrote:Again read his book he talks a lot about his philosophy of training and I think he's the last person on Earth who would crank the nose bands shut


I learned at my very first dressage clinic many, many years ago that what trainers write and what they do are often very different things. Part of the disconnect may be that they're using the words from within a particular context, and the meanings of the words in that context are quite different from the dictionary definitions?

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Rosie B » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:50 am

khall - thank-you for posting. I'd read it before, but it's just as good now as it was then.

Admittedly I'm cranky today, but the topic of discussion on this thread is making me go :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:02 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:Again read his book he talks a lot about his philosophy of training and I think he's the last person on Earth who would crank the nose bands shut


I learned at my very first dressage clinic many, many years ago that what trainers write and what they do are often very different things. Part of the disconnect may be that they're using the words from within a particular context, and the meanings of the words in that context are quite different from the dictionary definitions?


No, that is not the case here what so ever.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby StraightForward » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:20 pm

kande50 wrote:
Moutaineer wrote:I don't know how miserable they are or aren't because there's no way to know. I do however, think that taking the nosebands off would be a very good first step, if for no other reason than because it would help make at least that one rule (about how tight) so much less subjective. And as long as the rule was the same for everyone I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.


Sometimes a noseband makes a horse more comfortable with the bit. Take Susan's horse Kyra. Susan has tried everything under the sun to keep that horse comfortable the mouth (a multitude of bits, bitless bridles etc.). She has ridden without a noseband for years to keep her comfortable in the mouth. Kyra is going now in a PS Sweden Nirak bridle. I can tell you it is NOT tight, because I don't even undo the lower strap taking it on and off, and just loosely buckle the jowl strap. But it seems that the bit attaching closely to the strap over the nose has a stabilizing effect, and she is now going better than she ever has, and has made huge improvements in contact and connection as a result (I've been riding this horse off and on for about three years, so I know the actual difference in feeling) and isn't getting red spots on the insides of her cheeks.

Anyway, I don't see why so many people still use a flash when there are better bridle designs out there now, but I didn't see anything egregious in the photos of the horses being ridden in them. Of course it's hard to tell much without being there, or at least a closeup.
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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:54 pm

SF, your recommendation makes me want to try that bridle on my mare. Thanks for describing.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:12 pm

A flash can really help a horse find stability, along with bits like a mullen mouth, so in some cases they really like it- this is also gasp why I use a crank. It allows the noseband to sit nicely under riot's jaw. However, he has some that are regular cavesons and I have not noticed any real differences.

Also, too loose nosebands are very very annoying since they move and shift. at that point they don't keep the bridle on and offer no support. best to just take them off.

Its wonderful we have so many bridle options these days!

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby kande50 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:42 pm

StraightForward wrote:
Sometimes a noseband makes a horse more comfortable with the bit. Take Susan's horse Kyra. Susan has tried everything under the sun to keep that horse comfortable the mouth (a multitude of bits, bitless bridles etc.). She has ridden without a noseband for years to keep her comfortable in the mouth. Kyra is going now in a PS Sweden Nirak bridle. I can tell you it is NOT tight, because I don't even undo the lower strap taking it on and off, and just loosely buckle the jowl strap. But it seems that the bit attaching closely to the strap over the nose has a stabilizing effect, and she is now going better than she ever has, and has made huge improvements in contact and connection as a result (I've been riding this horse off and on for about three years, so I know the actual difference in feeling) and isn't getting red spots on the insides of her cheeks.

Anyway, I don't see why so many people still use a flash when there are better bridle designs out there now, but I didn't see anything egregious in the photos of the horses being ridden in them. Of course it's hard to tell much without being there, or at least a closeup.


I don't think the issue is nearly so much about one horse or one clinic, as it's way more about all the instances in which nosebands are so tight that it's obvious to anyone who isn't in denial that the noseband is being used to strap the horse's mouth shut so that he can't express discomfort.

The fix is just so easy. No need to spend resources or jump through hoops, because all that would be necessary would be to take the noseband off! Or, to accommodate the horses and humans who may be more comfortable with a noseband they could be allowed as long as it can be demonstrated that the noseband can be dropped off the horse's head without needing to unfasten any buckles. It would be so much simpler than the 2 finger rule, because either the noseband will drop off the horse's head or it won't.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:16 pm

The nosebands aren't tight here so its not relevant to this discussion. No one here nor Carl does that so lets move on.

Anyone want to talk about ideas in the article? I know that is more personally relevant to me.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:34 pm

what caught my eye initally

“If they don’t have relaxation it affects their paces. Some horses can be tense and produce spectacular movement, but that’s not right either. Others go into themselves. You just have to think of the Training Scale, how the horse uses itself. Look to the head and neck, if the neck is not nodding outwards, the horse cannot be supple in its back. Nod outwards – if they nod inwards it shows they are tight in their back.”

And the horses were not going to be allowed to leave the arena until they really let go and stretched: “The main thing is to leave the arena relaxed, you can only finish when the horse is relaxed, if it is tense, then keep going until they will relax.”

. I’d rather a normal moving horse with a fabulous work ethic, than the super mover.”

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby khall » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:40 pm

Me too Rye, there was good stuff to take home there. I liked the uber movers don't make GP because they are not quick enough in their reactions. Makes sense to me!

I've just liked so much of what CH puts out there, I like he put the work into Nip Tuck aka Barney to make an international horse. He seems to really enjoy the training of the horse and is not so hung up on the winning the medals. I also like they put their horses out in real fields and often with friends. Nip Tuck lives out 24/7.

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:11 am

khall wrote:Me too Rye, there was good stuff to take home there. I liked the uber movers don't make GP because they are not quick enough in their reactions. Makes sense to me!

I've just liked so much of what CH puts out there, I like he put the work into Nip Tuck aka Barney to make an international horse. He seems to really enjoy the training of the horse and is not so hung up on the winning the medals. I also like they put their horses out in real fields and often with friends. Nip Tuck lives out 24/7.


agree! I loved seeing MSJ Freestyle in her flysheet out the day after getting off the plane from Tryon...

On a somewhat related note, I always thought shoulder motion was a good thing, my trainer said my walk was too big and I needed to slow the front end (in a good way) to make the horse more packaged and "quick" with the hind leg.... and it was enlightening to read these themes here (not that my horse is as fancy, but mechanically its exactly the same ideas why collection is hard for some).

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Re: A good read, Carl Hester

Postby Hot4Spots » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:50 pm

Since my horse will never show again, I took the flash off his bridle. However, even when I used it schooling, it was never tight. My horse was never particularly evasive of the bit, but when he was young and green, a loosely fastened flash just reminded him not to open his jaw too much. He's always had a busy mouth. When he was working and focused, the flash was probably extraneous, and when he's on a loose rein, he still plays with his bit, with or without a flash. Just as my bridle has a crank noseband that I never crank - it's just nice to have the padding on his jaw.

P.S. With more relevance: Love the article, love CH. My trainer is definitely a CH/CDJ/Valegro groupie. :lol:


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