Collected walk

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khall
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Collected walk

Postby khall » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:49 pm

How many work on collected walk regularly? As probably many of you I had always been told don't work on the walk very much it is so easy to screw up, so why I do a good bit of work in the walk (lateral work etc) I rarely have "worked" on collected walk. Mark did have me doing some counted walk way back but it has been awhile since I have played with it. Watching Karen R video and riding Juliet and Rip makes me realize how valuable collected walk can be. With Rip it is about always being able to tap back into the energy so I have to make sure that the forward is still there in collected walk. With Juliet I'm still figuring her out, but I like it for her the balance of it. Karen also put in some prep for SW in the collected walk to show the horse how to be light in the shoulders. This is very helpful for Juliet.

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Flight
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Re: Collected walk

Postby Flight » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:32 pm

Me! Ding has quite a big walk so collecting it for walk piri's etc is important otherwise I just swing around, and also walk-canter. I've been doing it with the soloshot and I was alarmed to see it looking like it might want to get a bit lateral. So, yes stuffing it up is easy.
I have to keep it energetic not just slow, and although i've never been taught counted walk, I've been trying to do that.
I'm still instructor-less, just got a spot in a clinic but that's not til November, I'm wondering if I should sign up for the Karen Rolf stuff too.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Tsavo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:37 pm

I have done a bunch of counted walk. I used to do it every ride. The main reason is so I can say I combine French and German. Just kidding!

I do it as slow as possible. That's the point. I think if I did it faster it would be collected walk but I have not tried to speed it up.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby khall » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:52 am

Flight I have been getting a good bit out of KR's videos. I have actually ridden with her a few times and did not particularly find much help with her, she is a lovely person to deal with just did not help me much. But because I am very much a visual learner, watching her videos has really helped. Also gives me a different way to think of stuff.

Yes I found how easy the W piri's are with Rip in the collected walk I have him in!! I thought I was "collected" enough before, but obviously not.

Tsavo in the counted walk you do are you looking at diagnolizing it for piaffe? That is also where I would like to get to, a bit elusive right now. Hoping Cedar can help.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:02 pm

Not very much, no, I have found it better to work with a trainer to make sure I have enough power. At this point we are working more on forward work then momentarily bringing back to collection. I can't sustain it that long

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:24 pm

Khall no I am not trying to diagonalize. As Ammy Ilk (tm), I think the risk of ruining the walk would be too great. My horse will do half steps so I don't need to go to collected walk to work towards piaffe which I will not be doing with my present horse anyway.

I used counted walk to raise the withers and focus my horse on my seat.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:23 pm

why do you want to go from walk to passage? why not a trot? I agree the risk to the walk purity is significant. I have seem most in hand work start from collected trot to passage

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Re: Collected walk

Postby khall » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:52 pm

Rye not passage but piaffe. Counted walk usually leads to diagnolizing (can use RB to help with this too) and then the piaffe mechanics. This is where Rip is lacking and I am struggling with. He has good half steps but to go from collected walk, diagnolize and piaffe is where we need work now. It is a whole new level of engagement and posture in the horse, he's not sure he wants to go there. Why we went to SW, improve the uphill posture and show him shoulder freedom.

Now Karen R does in the video go from collected walk into passage with one of the horses. Very nice transition.

With the less than enthusiastic engines in some horses, Rip fits this category, we have to use the higher gait to keep them thinking active in the collected walk. I also like using walk piri's for this as well then trot on. I had some really nice collected walk to canter transitions. Really eye opening to me the level of engagement I am getting in the collected walk. I do need it on video!

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:22 pm

Oh now RB I mainly do in hand before each ride and that must be purely diagonal, on the bit, dead straight, f/d/o, and he has to do it with me on one side then the other. That is part of my in hand work prior to each ride and I am very particular about the in hand work.

In the counted walk, it stays purely four beat. The slower the more four beat. I am not sure I would know how to diagonalize it. How do people do that?

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:17 am

Yeah I understand that some people choose to start from a walk but its a different rhythm so the horse has to switch to a 2 beat diagonal gait which is harder than collecting the same 2 beat gait. Walk work doesn't have much power so it would seem more logical to work from trot.
My walk work suffers from last of thrust its just so hard to understand this approach.
Why mess with the walk?
Maybe I'm just over analysing. This isn't an argument against any one person's views.

khall
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Re: Collected walk

Postby khall » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:44 am

Rye training piaffe from walk is usually the way it is done. Way harder to collect the trot to piaffe. That is why you diagnolize the walk (one method is to RB to diagnolized walk, another is counted walk that diagnolizes from the collection in the walk). With Rip I go from walk to half steps back to walk. You should feel the piaffe in the walk, that at any moment the horse can piaffe from the collected walk. Similar to feeling the canter in the trot etc. Another method is lateral work, HP in the walk diagnolizes it, then add in energy for the piaffe. Again hard for Rip. Mark had me do a side pass to help train for Rip for piaffe, first in bend away from movement then I did in bend towards the movement (full pass). It teaches them to go more up and down in their leg movement. This is a very engaging movement and the horse must be strong enough to do it and be prepared for it. I would go sideways, to RB to sideways the other direction with Rip both in hand and US. Used this with Juliet the other day (her RB is very difficult US still) and it REALLY engaged her and helped with the RB.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:21 pm

khall wrote:Rye training piaffe from walk is usually the way it is done. Way harder to collect the trot to piaffe. That is why you diagnolize the walk (one method is to RB to diagnolized walk, another is counted walk that diagnolizes from the collection in the walk). With Rip I go from walk to half steps back to walk. You should feel the piaffe in the walk, that at any moment the horse can piaffe from the collected walk. Similar to feeling the canter in the trot etc. Another method is lateral work, HP in the walk diagnolizes it, then add in energy for the piaffe. Again hard for Rip. Mark had me do a side pass to help train for Rip for piaffe, first in bend away from movement then I did in bend towards the movement (full pass). It teaches them to go more up and down in their leg movement. This is a very engaging movement and the horse must be strong enough to do it and be prepared for it. I would go sideways, to RB to sideways the other direction with Rip both in hand and US. Used this with Juliet the other day (her RB is very difficult US still) and it REALLY engaged her and helped with the RB.

Well it usually starts from the Trot where I come from. So we have to be very careful we think about our own experience and not overgeneralize

Perhaps this is a tradition difference? I think the French may start more from the walk. I was trained more in the German thought process which I believe starts with more of a trot

Thank you for your explanations here. This is very different than what I have experienced. It's always good to have more tools and understanding. Some horses might need one way and other horses might need a different way.

For me I'll stick with collection being a Continuum of the Trot, but definitely many good thoughts here

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:18 pm

From Hilda, Dressage today.

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/h ... ing-piaffe

Begin with Walk–Halt

Depending on the horse’s ability to balance and engage, I usually try to start schooling small, piaffe-like half steps around 5 years of age. Unmounted in-hand work may be started earlier with horses that are already able to shorten their strides. This in-hand schooling progresses in several steps:

Trot–Halt–Trot

When the halt–walk exercise is well performed, I begin to ask the horse for a few steps of shortened trot. Short taps of the whip just behind the stifle on his haunches, along with a cluck, indicate that he should trot. (Remember that horses respond differently to the feel of the whip on the body so you have to experiment to find the place that gets the response you want.) I should still be able to walk backward while the horse executes the shortened trot steps. Only a few trot steps need to be performed before I ask the horse to halt. Then I praise him. Short training sessions schooling trot–halt–trot help him improve his reactions to the cluck, the whip tap and the “whoa.” Gradually, the horse’s balance and straightness will improve.

If a horse finds it difficult to perform a trot short enough to allow you to walk with him, he may not yet be ready for work in-hand and may profit from work on half steps under saddle to enable them to shorten his trot enough to work in-hand.

khall
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Re: Collected walk

Postby khall » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:02 am

Yes I consider that teaching half steps which is where Rip is at. Teaching the piaffe from counted walk and RB though adds in another level of difficulty and engagement. Seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtvcLE7d4AQ

Really teaches the mechanics of piaffe more on the spot so does RB to piaffe. There are many steps involved in getting the idea. Trot halt trot in hand is one of the very first steps in teaching engagement, then trot halt RB trot. Teaching the individual hind leg reaction is also a very early part of it. I've also used SI on the circle (Anja B does this as well) and activate in the rotation.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby galopp » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:09 pm

Traditionally piaffe comes as a forward exercise, so from collected walk (or rein back which is more diagonalizing) to piaffe. Collected walk meaning high flexing hind leg joints, articulated. The ability to use this comes from simple things early in training (for in hand) which is walk/halt (squared/closed/upright/open)/walk from a mere raising/lowering of a whip. When piaffe comes from trot, it is a more backwards action which makes the folding of the hind legs more problematic (these actions are more modern, which tend to have tensioned passage then piaffe). And my background is strongly germanic (esp for work in hand).

Walk is the last gait to be collected for a reason, because there is no impulsion. Exercises like walk toH, and later walk Ps, help establish more collectability, as does lateral work. The use of counted walk is to allow purity of walk, one step at a time, as well as for balance. It is very important that the half halts keep the horse upright and open.

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Re: Collected walk

Postby Tsavo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:59 pm

galopp wrote:The use of counted walk is to allow purity of walk, one step at a time, as well as for balance. It is very important that the half halts keep the horse upright and open.


Yes this is how I ride it. It becomes hyper-pure the more correct it is. Like squeezing each of the four footfalls out of a eyedropper on command of seat and rider balance. It feels like a knife edge the whole time and you can fall out of it easily. The HHs have to be minuscule because they might upset the balance. That is why I have no idea how to diagnonalize it.


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