Collected trot - more cadence

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Flight
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Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Flight » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:32 am

OK, so a lot of comments on my tests now are 'needs to show more cadence' or something along those lines.

I am starting to get more suspension in the trot, but when does it become passage like? How much more do I need to ask for? Here's a vid of what I've started with. I think most people here know me and my horse, but if not my horse has very normal/average paces under saddle, so I'm having to create this. Also, this is the first time for me and my horse at this level, so I haven't actually felt what a correct, collected trot should feel like.

At this stage, what I'm noticing is that any wobble or unevenness is very obvious and you have to maintain it throughout the lateral work, otherwise his 'normal' trot looks very different. I may need to increase the tempo later? But at this stage, this is what he can sustain.
What are people's thoughts? Especially those that have trained at this level and above (Advanced. We are going to do a PSG test in a couple of weeks at a training day - if i can get my counting right by then :roll: ).

Vid (and some spanish walk at the end for Khall. We have been practising a little!)
You need to mute the sound, it was really windy and I forgot to turn the sound down when I edited and uploaded. Sorry!

https://youtu.be/LM9I8xbQ-Og

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby HafDressage » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:21 am

Flight this is also part of my mission right now, although you are definitely ahead of me on this front. I think it seems like you are definitely heading in the right direction in terms of the trot appearing to have more cadence.

I think what you have around 1:10 is better than in the beginning because it has some cadence without getting too slow behind or passage like. To me, anything more passagey than 1:10 is probably going to get judges commenting that it is too passage like and/or lacks engagement and impulsion and therefore a lower score. I think continuing to work on getting more engagement behind in that trot will probably be closer to what will score well for your horse.

As for me, I'm finding it very difficult to transfer the cadenced trot I've ridden on forward-thinking warmbloods to my pumpkin horse who has basically zero suspension to his trot naturally. What worked for you with your guy?

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Flight » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:53 am

Thanks HafDressage, that makes sense - not letting it get too slow behind. He used to really drag his toes through the sand and have his hind legs out behind him, so it's taken a while to get even this much engagement. I think it will take a lot more time as he doesn't naturally have good hindleg action.

We've gained this trot from piaffe steps, once he learned that and started passage and this trot is like asking for passage but not as much. To help develop passage steps we did do exercises such as around the arena- alternating between shoulder in/travers/shoulder in/travers and they seem to develop a bit of cadence out of that.

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Chisamba » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:42 am

Collection trot us technically the hair with the least suspension, so adding suspension to collected trot is counter productive. I agree that hind legs stepping more under the body and quicker would aid the overall quality of collected trot.

I would almost ignore the term cadence which doesn't really have a definition outside of music and inflection of voice, and simply keep working on your quality.

My guess is that the judges really want to see more x in the lateral.

I both rude and coach my second and above level horses to do lateral work in medium gaits at home so that when we begin a half pass at the show the horse has an energy surge equivalent to an extended fair, and that provides expression and scope.

Extension should not speed up, but collecting should not be slow.

If I just glance at the vid, my overall impression is too " slow "

I was actually watching steffen Peter's work with his wife. I wish I could find the video. And he was having her do all the lateral work in more medium gaits. I have become a fan of this technique ever since. Collection needs active Hinds as well as balance. Practicing transitions into and out of strong trot while doing lateral work keeps the horse active behind and improves the expression of the gaits.

Something to experiment with.

You have to believe and persuade your horse to believe it can be less monotonous

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:51 am

I am no expert but I agree the trot looks a touch slow but it may be the video.

I have struggled with telling the difference not between slow and collected but between small and collected. I guessed wrong often.

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:16 pm

Tsavo wrote:I am no expert but I agree the trot looks a touch slow but it may be the video.

I have struggled with telling the difference not between slow and collected but between small and collected. I guessed wrong often.


Sometimes I'm not even convinced that some of the trots I see are collected, as the horse seems to be making the same or a higher arc with the backs as the fronts, and in collected work the backs should be lower/sitting while the front arcs are higher and freer. But in the vid it does look to me like the hinds may be taking more weight at times, and when that happens his nose comes out more and his front end comes up more. Interestingly, those instances also seem to be when the activity increases, so no doubt it's all connected, just as we knew it was. :-)

Not that I'm in any way confident that I'm actually seeing what I think I'm seeing, but thanks for posting video, as it's so much more interesting and educational to have the information about what you're working on to put with the video footage.

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:48 pm

I think you are losing the hunches in the turns and he could be a little more engaged as a result. He is putting his haunches a little bit to the outside before he brings them in for the turns. Especially when you start your right half pass in the beginning. This might help capture the energy to help him engage his hind end. I think you're just losing a little bit of rhythm because of some tightness.
So I think for the situation if I was riding this lovely horse I would do a lot of forward work and start forward into collection.
Make sure you keep your outside hip flexors engaged to help control the hunches. For me personally although my horses at a lower level once I capture the hips shoulders in straightness it really helped build the power

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Dresseur » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:51 pm

I agree with others that say too slow. Cadence in dressage terms is born out of rhythm,(definition here: Cadence: The marked accentuation of the rhythm and (musical) beat that is a result of a steady and suitable tempo harmonizing with a springy impulsion—USDF Glossary of Dressage Judging Terms) and in a lot of places the rhythm is interrupted in this video.

The way I've been taught to improve cadence is that you need to harness the power, so a lot of forward and back: mediums for 5-6 strides to collected and back out, I like to do this on a circle as well as on the straight. The cadence comes from asking for mediums but not allowing it out in front. I also agree with working laterals in md gaits as Chisamba suggested. Lots and lots of quick transitions - the hind especially can't slow down and go out behind.

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby khall » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:09 pm

Flight I agree with everyone, more power more energy and you can get this through SI counter SI in medium trot. This is exactly what Cedar had me working on with Rip in June. Counter SI through the short side and medium on the long side.

Years ago I rode an FEI horse that was trained by the trainer I was a working student for. He was a mutt horse pulled off a bucking string as a youngster with no clear rhythm to his gaits except the walk. With training that horse made it to GP and was a jam up PSG/I1 horse. How she built cadence was through passage more than piaffe. She taught him passage using trot poles, ending up with about 12-15 poles in a row to build his strength. His passage was incredible to watch and ride, this big horse with a shuffly trot ended up having quite the nice passage (piaffe not quite as good). So I would come at from two different angles, both from working in medium but also in improving the passage, the carry and activity of the passage (strengthen that hind end). I know you jump Ding do you do much caveletti with him?

Love the SW! What I have been working with Rip is to hold the leg extension just a hair longer so that he is a bit slower to put the leg down and he lands softer. Karen R said she did this by getting the horse to hold the folded leg (like a school halt) longer. This is what we are doing with Juliet the TB/Perch. Always something to work on!

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Chisamba » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:57 pm

Thx dresseur. My apologies, cadence does have definition outside of music . :)

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Flight » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:18 pm

Thanks everyone! I feel a little embarrassed by my ignorance to be honest, but thanks for the feedback.

I will go back and work on it a bit differently. We used to try and do the lateral work in medium but I don't think he was strong enough then. But that was a while ago. I would always push him too fast for the forward work, but really we should be past that now. Ding has the hang of passage, and is slowly improving his strength with that also.

Khall, no i dont use cavalletti, but yes this is something I can use. The piaffe was used to get the passage and now the cadence is just like asking for passage, but not as much. If that makes sense! Good tip with the SW, i will try that also.

Ryeissa - I didn't notice the haunches. He used to stick them in so much, now I've gone too far the other way.

Kande that's what it feels like at times, when he comes up more in front. It is a big effort for him though!

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:14 pm

Flight wrote:Thanks everyone! I feel a little embarrassed by my ignorance to be honest, but thanks for the feedback.

I will go back and work on it a bit differently. We used to try and do the lateral work in medium but I don't think he was strong enough then. But that was a while ago. I would always push him too fast for the forward work, but really we should be past that now. Ding has the hang of passage, and is slowly improving his strength with that also.

Khall, no i dont use cavalletti, but yes this is something I can use. The piaffe was used to get the passage and now the cadence is just like asking for passage, but not as much. If that makes sense! Good tip with the SW, i will try that also.

Ryeissa - I didn't notice the haunches. He used to stick them in so much, now I've gone too far the other way.

Kande that's what it feels like at times, when he comes up more in front. It is a big effort for him though!


Haha yeah. I'm so guilty of riding one side or the other. Have to remember horses have two sides so I have to think less about active aids but also passive supporting aids.

Good work though! Really good partnership.

Horses exploit any holes they find. Le Sigh.

Let me know if that observation rings true at all. I'm always curious if my thoughts are actually what is going on or if I'm completely in left field

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby Rosie B » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:17 am

Flight I’ll echo what others have said - ride forward and back in all the laterals. I think cadence comes naturally with strength. He may not be strong enough day 1 to go blasting into medium in HP or even SI but you should still be asking for those transitions being pleased with the small efforts initially.

I do some of these almost every ride with Bliss. We’re nowhere near your level, but he is starting to develop a little cadence because of it.

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Re: Collected trot - more cadence

Postby kande50 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:26 am

Flight wrote:
Kande that's what it feels like at times, when he comes up more in front. It is a big effort for him though!


That's what I'm discovering, too. I thought my horse was naturally well balanced for dressage because he rears easily, so I thought collection might be easy enough for him. But now I'm not so sure, and suspect that's because sitting behind isn't at all easy for him?

And of course, I'm still working out how to communicate to him what I want, so that's part of the project, too.

I've been working toward collection the opposite way from what it sounds like you have though, as I've been sticking with the balance before movement progression to hopefully, help maximize his chances of staying sound. I'm just now getting into more movement though, so will be interested to hear which ends up working better for you (developing it from slower work, or from the mediums).


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