Hovering?

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kande50
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Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:40 pm

Crappy video, but I'll get another one with a better camera and lighting next time.

Looking at it from this angle (I usually put the camera up higher so I can get more area) it looks like he's hopping more than hovering. It's in about the middle of the first pass when we start to turn to go around the blue barrel. He comes through the corner, and then when I start to bend left he misinterprets the cues as "up" rather than bend.

As soon as he loosens up and bends his neck he comes back down again and then I can cue him to move forward again, and then once he gets it he just goes. But I get the same kind of "hovering" in the corners, and in one corner in particular, way more often than I'd like.

Whenever he starts doing it I try to bend left and as soon as he bends his neck that interrupts it, but if I just try to leg him on he just puts more effort into trying to lift higher.

Lifting the inside rein seems to help, but wasn't the cure I thought it might be.

https://youtu.be/EJ9jbhPKy3I

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Flight » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:29 am

I'm thinking he's just bracing a bit against the bend and so slows down and drops his back? I could be wrong. What happens in walk?

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:10 am

It looks like jogging off contact to me.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby khall » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:01 am

Yeah very much the passagey trot and not in a good way. Sting is not going forward and is using this half trot half passage to reduce the work load. GO FORWARD, even over tempo for a bit. Do LY in FORWARD trot, do smaller circles in forward trot, do lateral work in forward trot. This trot will not help him biomechanically. In fact it stiffens his back, drops it out from under you because his hind legs are not engaged and he lands harder on the front legs. I would work forward and sideways.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:18 am

Flight wrote:I'm thinking he's just bracing a bit against the bend and so slows down and drops his back? I could be wrong. What happens in walk?


That's my take on it, too. He doesn't do it in walk or canter because I've only ever rewarded him for it in trot.

I liked it at one time because it was so up, and because he slowed down it was also very sit-able. But then when I started rewarding more energy I realized it was no longer easy to sit, so got my first clue that it wasn't something I wanted.

It's fading fast because I'm no longer rewarding it and am instead rewarding "down and forward", but wanted to discuss it while I was still getting it, just to be sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing and that it could be described as "hovering".

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:48 am

khall wrote:Yeah very much the passagey trot and not in a good way. Sting is not going forward and is using this half trot half passage to reduce the work load.


I don't think this has anything to do with conserving energy, because I think it actually takes a lot more energy to do this than to just trot forward. This is all about trying to produce something that Ive rewarded in the past and he thinks I want.

True that he's not forward though, because he thinks it's all about up. And as Tsavo noted, it does have a lot in common with a jog because there's no collection, although I wouldn't call it a jog because it's too up and I think of a jog as low and slow.

I have contact, but he's not taking that contact out at all because his energy is all directed upwards.

I wouldn't even call this a passagey trot, because passage implies collection to me and there's no true collection. I think it's probably just a stiff backed trot with a slight moment of suspension (which I can feel) with the hinds lifting in the same arc as the fronts. If there was collection his hind joints would flex more and take more weight, and by doing so would make a lower arc than the fronts. And then, when I added more energy, it would be stay smooth instead of bouncing me up out of the saddle!

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:57 am

The passagey thing has got to be genes. Didn't he always do that?

ETA: I think this is pro fix to get a normal correct working, medium, etc..

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:24 am

Tsavo wrote:The passagey thing has got to be genes. Didn't he always do that?


Look at the difference between the first pass coming down the long side and past the blue barrel, and the other passes. The first one is the example of the stiff trot. The rest are his normal trot. The stiff trot is fairly subtle on bad video, but would be obvious if you were in the saddle.

ETA: I think this is pro fix to get a normal correct working, medium, etc..


Don't know what that means? Do you mean that his regular, kind of bouncy trot needs to be fixed?

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Re: Hovering?

Postby khall » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:54 pm

passagey trot has nothing to do with actual passage. Pretty common evasion by WBs especially. It means they are not using themselves correctly. There is no engagement nor enough hind end activity for actual passage. There was a video of Steffan P addressing this in a clinic, he talked of the issues that this trot causes and how to fix it: more energy! Get those hind legs working. Just do a google search on passage as an evasion or passagey trot and see what comes up.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby StraightForward » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:27 pm

khall wrote:passagey trot has nothing to do with actual passage. Pretty common evasion by WBs especially. It means they are not using themselves correctly.


Yes, my new filly does this naturally. She just has springs in her legs and this is her equivalent of a jog albeit, head up and back dropped. When I push her forward from behind, the head comes f/d/o and you can see the circle of energy connect. Riding her forward enough when she's just starting US is going to be essential, but a challenge.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Koolkat » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:49 am

kande50 wrote:I don't think this has anything to do with conserving energy, because I think it actually takes a lot more energy to do this than to just trot forward.
It's a classic passagey trot (not to be confused with passage). The horse is too slow in the hind leg. It does not take a lot more energy to do this. What takes more energy is actually stepping under and carrying his/your weight. This avoids that, he's pushing out behind, not stepping under and carrying. This is why you're schooling those curved lines (in a straight manner!), because the curve "forces" the horse to step under with the inside hind and develop the musculature to carry himself and you correctly.

This is all about trying to produce something that I've rewarded in the past and he thinks I want.

Stop that! :D


That's a good idea with those barrels.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:38 pm

Koolkat wrote: The horse is too slow in the hind leg. It does not take a lot more energy to do this. What takes more energy is actually stepping under and carrying his/your weight. This avoids that, he's pushing out behind, not stepping under and carrying. This is why you're schooling those curved lines (in a straight manner!), because the curve "forces" the horse to step under with the inside hind and develop the musculature to carry himself and you correctly.


I meant that it takes more energy than trotting forward, and yes, I can see that lifting the front end is going to take a lot more.

Oddly enough, he does seem to step under with his hinds on a curve, or at least he does once he comes back down from his passagey trot. In fact, I think his left hind steps under better than his right hind, but that could be because I don't work to the right much because that's his easy side. Or it could be that his left hind steps medially more anyway, to support his right front club? Heck, for all I know his left hind steps too far under (medially)?

But, while analysis is fun, I'm throwing caution to the winds and moving along.

quote]Stop that! :D That's a good idea with those barrels.[/quote]

I've definitely stopped it, and have markers in the corners too, so we can't cheat and cut the corners.

Next ride is going to be figure 8's, both the long and short way, and the goal will be to keep our balance when we change direction, which will probably keep us busy for the rest of the winter. :-)

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Koolkat » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:03 pm

kande50 wrote:Oddly enough, he does seem to step under with his hinds on a curve, or at least he does once he comes back down from his passagey trot.


That's not odd. . . ;)

I wouldn't worry about him stepping too far under, he doesn't.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:57 am

StraightForward wrote:
Yes, my new filly does this naturally. She just has springs in her legs and this is her equivalent of a jog albeit, head up and back dropped. When I push her forward from behind, the head comes f/d/o and you can see the circle of energy connect. Riding her forward enough when she's just starting US is going to be essential, but a challenge.


Yes, this is something he's always done to some degree, but when he does it on his own he doesn't hollow so much because he's still got forward impulsion because he's not trying to lift higher.

I don't think you'll have any trouble with it under saddle as long as you don't reward it, because one thing about wb's is that they seem to have naturally forward, rhythmic gaits, so I only created this because I started rewarding up and didn't recognize it as the wrong kind of up.

I think one of the reasons we see so much pseudo-collection (collected neck with trailing hindquarters) at the upper levels is because it's so easy to get with a horse who has a flexible neck coupled with a bouncy hind end. Trouble is, what they're getting is an animated jog rather than a shortened base with lifted withers.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:23 pm

The great run of horses do not seem to hover in their choice of evasions. This has got to be genetic. Do non-WBs hover as an evasion?

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Dresseur » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:06 pm

Tsavo, I believe that it's genetic, but it can also be taught - particularly if you're not careful when you teach a horse to passage or add passagey steps into the trot. I think Ding was showing that in Flight's latest video, and I know personally of a lovely PRE that was taught early on to take passage-like steps in the trot and it is his go-to evasion. Interestingly, that horse - one who was in clinics and highly praised by the likes of Robert Dover and Debbie McDonald went mysteriously lame. Every diagnostic in the book was done, nothing was found - so the horse was given to a friend of mine. She stopped the hovering and the horse is a solid I-1 horse, and has not taken a lame step in years. We believe that the hovering created rein-lameness because nothing was found in any body scan, x-ray, MRI, ultrasound ever taken - and this horse was seen by the best of the best with a fine-tooth comb.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Tsavo » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:03 pm

Thanks for that info, Dresseur.

Rein lameness has always been to bizarre to me. Also horses that go lame from particular saddles. So bizarre.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Koolkat » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:26 pm

Tsavo wrote:The great run of horses do not seem to hover in their choice of evasions. This has got to be genetic. Do non-WBs hover as an evasion?


My first horse, an Arab mare did this, slow in the hind leg. She was from park horse lines, so they weren't selecting for the "carrying" hind end so much, more of a split in the back. . . . She had great freedom in the shoulder, she could look very pretty doing so. . .

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:48 pm

Agree with Khall, pretty much wrote the same thing....

I would push him on when he does this, the energy is just stalling and he is getting sticky. He is very above the contact

It's not passage-like.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 pm

Dresseur wrote:Tsavo, I believe that it's genetic, but it can also be taught - particularly if you're not careful when you teach a horse to passage or add passagey steps into the trot. I think Ding was showing that in Flight's latest video, and I know personally of a lovely PRE that was taught early on to take passage-like steps in the trot and it is his go-to evasion. Interestingly, that horse - one who was in clinics and highly praised by the likes of Robert Dover and Debbie McDonald went mysteriously lame. Every diagnostic in the book was done, nothing was found - so the horse was given to a friend of mine. She stopped the hovering and the horse is a solid I-1 horse, and has not taken a lame step in years. We believe that the hovering created rein-lameness because nothing was found in any body scan, x-ray, MRI, ultrasound ever taken - and this horse was seen by the best of the best with a fine-tooth comb.


Do you know if he was lame at liberty too, or only under saddle?

I think hovering is easier for my WB than it is for any of my other horses, but if I had ignored the first instance in which he offered it and instead rewarded him for a more forward trot it never would have developed into bigger efforts to hover higher.

Rearing is super easy for my horse too, and he does it often in the pasture and during liberty work, but I've never rewarded him for it under saddle so he doesn't offer it under saddle.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Dresseur » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:58 pm

I’m not sure if it was only under saddle or not. All I know is that they never found anything, and he wasn’t given a huge chunk of time off to resolve it if it was a physical reason. I do know that it was off and on at first, then always lame under saddle. They did all their tests, found nothing, and found a home for him. He would show a few steps of “lameness” when allowed to hover, when pushed out of it, it would go away. He’s been sound as a dollar ever since he came into my friend’s care.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:01 pm

Koolkat wrote:
My first horse, an Arab mare did this, slow in the hind leg. She was from park horse lines, so they weren't selecting for the "carrying" hind end so much, more of a split in the back. . . . She had great freedom in the shoulder, she could look very pretty doing so. . .


My horse has 2 Arab sires on his dam's side, which may explain the flagging tail I see so often. It may also explain why he's so darned spooky. Or maybe I should call it "cautious"? Or maybe "hyper-cautious"? :-)

Don't really know where the bouncing trot came from, but maybe a combination of the Arab and Trakehner? He has a half brother (same mare) who doesn't have the bouncy trot, but has the same spooks and a much dishier face.

I'm just happy to be able to see the difference between the slow hind leg/disengaged at the wither/pseudo-collection/stiff trot/hover trot, and what I now call collection, or true collection. Although technically I don't feel like I should have to add the true part.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
It's not passage-like.


Which is why it seems odd to me that it's called a passage-y trot.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:30 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
It's not passage-like.


Which is why it seems odd to me that it's called a passage-y trot.


No, your trot here is not what I call a passagey trot.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Koolkat » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:32 am

"Passage-like or Passagey Trot A trot in which the phase of support of one diagonal pair of legs is prolonged, while there is a hesitation in the forward travel of the other diagonal pair of legs, giving a floating, hovering impression. Also called "hovering trot."
https://www.nydressageltd.com/dressage-terms.html (You can find this definition in multiple places, I had the honor of learning it in lessons on Arab mare mentioned above. . . ).

Look at the horse when he comes toward and around the barrel the first time. . . He is leaving his hind leg on the ground too long = slow behind
Send him forward.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Tsavo » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:36 am

kande50 wrote:My horse has 2 Arab sires on his dam's side, which may explain the flagging tail I see so often. It may also explain why he's so darned spooky. Or maybe I should call it "cautious"? Or maybe "hyper-cautious"? :-)


Horses with no eye pathology spook without a trigger because the rider doesn't have their attention. It is a tried and true evasion.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:10 pm

Oh there are triggers, and his half brother who is 3 years older has spent a lot of time under pros and he spooks with them too, which made me realize how limited the "keep their attention" idea is.

The whole problem with trying to force submission is that the fear is still there, which means the tension is still there, which means the results are so much less than optimal that it's hard for me to see why anyone would even want them.

And as far as an evasion, why would any horse want to go to all the trouble to spook at something when it takes way more effort than just going past it, and gets them nothing other than more aversives? The only reason they do it is because it makes them feel safer, and fear is much more aversive than the other ones they experience when they spook.
Last edited by kande50 on Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hovering?

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:12 pm

I keep reading this as "hoovering." Can you train my horse to do this too, please, Kande?

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Re: Hovering?

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:17 pm

Moutaineer wrote:I keep reading this as "hoovering." Can you train my horse to do this too, please, Kande?


Hoovering, isn't that when they vacuum up their food? :-)


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