Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

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Chisamba
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Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Chisamba » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:29 pm

A) hobby horsing. So to raise funds for Meryls Equine Sanctuary, I ran a hobby horse show. Children ,Junior and senior divisions. So we had flat and jumping and gymkhana, and of course an equitation pattern.

The girls, mostly riders, had enough difficulty with jumping in the correct lead to create excessive hilarity and respect for how difficult it is for the horse.

B) Fast forward to today, I decided to clean half the stalls left handed. I decided it would be both good for my.muscles and dexterity.

C) it truly is difficult to accomplish complicated tasks with the other hand, giving the horse plenty of time and practice to be relaxed and skilled in both directions is perhaps not emphasized enough.

Comments?

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:13 pm

I had an instructor in college, and old cowboy no less, who taught all his students to practice everything from both sides. We learned how to mount from the ground and practiced it from both sides, we led from both sides, bridled from both sides, etc..., and luckily, it stayed with me so I had plenty of years to find more ways to use my left side. I'm still nowhere near ambidextrous, but I try.

I think it would be interesting to compare notes with a rider who was strongly left handed, and ride different horses to see if their perceptions of straightness were the same as mine.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:30 pm

I'm left handed, so I have a considerable amount of sympathy with your view, Chisamba.

I also, (I suspect many lefties are like this) don't automatically know my left from my right so there's always a beat where I have to think when someone says "right rein!" which drives some instructors nuts--when I was a kid it was always "inside" or "outside" and I could process that, but nowadays (different country, too,) it's always "left" or "right."

I've been known to carefully line my horse up with the mounting block and only notice that it felt a bit weird when I went to get on from the off side.

As far as straightness goes, Kande, no, I think straightness is an absolute. And things other than "handedness" affect any level of one-sidedness your horse may develop. For me, I have one leg weaker than the other, that makes a much bigger difference. There's a lady I ride with who would swear blind to you that she works her horse on both sides evenly, but actually always ends up riding 90% of her ride in one direction. I don't know how he cheats her into doing this, but he gets her working his easier way every time. Which makes his harder side even harder.

(I think I'm the only newcomer to Salt Lake City who was pleased to discover that people here give directions as east and west rather than left and right!)

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby khall » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:53 pm

Oh definitely it can feel so awkward working on our "weaker" side! I have to thank the NH trend for starting me down the track of getting on and off both sides (I still get off the off side every ride), leading from both sides (Juliet was horrified the first few times I tried to lead her from the off side when she got here!) and really starting me down the road of ground work attempting to be ambidextrous! But I bless Mark most of all for the in hand work that he taught me, how it educates myself as well as the horse. I still have sides where I am more comfortable doing certain exercises (easier off Rip's near side to work half steps, though I do both sides) easier on the off side to work SW though I also work on this from both sides.

I occasionally will try to brush my teeth with my left hand (right handed here) and I will switch sweeping with both hands, have not tried stall picking, will have to give it a go! Sounds like fun was had by all at the hobby horse show! Did anyone attempt a GP test? The hobby horse is a "thing" over in Europe, they take it seriously!

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:17 pm

Moutaineer wrote:
I also, (I suspect many lefties are like this) don't automatically know my left from my right so there's always a beat where I have to think when someone says "right rein!" which drives some instructors nuts--when I was a kid it was always "inside" or "outside" and I could process that, but nowadays (different country, too,) it's always "left" or "right."


I'm okay at left and right, but always have to think about blue for cold and red for hot, and which side which faucet is on. My dh is mostly left handed, but maybe more ambidextrous, and no surprise that he doesn't have a good sense of left and right. OTOH, he can switch a hammer from his left to his right hand and still hit the nail, so there are some real advantages to being ambidextrous.

I've been known to carefully line my horse up with the mounting block and only notice that it felt a bit weird when I went to get on from the off side.


The way I have my mounting block crammed into the corner right now, the horse pretty much has to approach it so his right side is next to the block. It doesn't matter to me because I've been getting on from either side for years, but there was a lot of uncoordinated mounting last week because apparently, everyone else had been getting on exclusively from the left side. :-)

As far as straightness goes, Kande, no, I think straightness is an absolute. And things other than "handedness" affect any level of one-sidedness your horse may develop.


I thought horses were born one sided so it's a matter of straightening them rather than making them one-sided? All my horses are stiff to the left to varying degrees, but I have often wondered if a left handed rider would either perceive their straightness issues differently, and/or would be able to straighten them more effectively?

For me, I have one leg weaker than the other, that makes a much bigger difference. There's a lady I ride with who would swear blind to you that she works her horse on both sides evenly, but actually always ends up riding 90% of her ride in one direction. I don't know how he cheats her into doing this, but he gets her working his easier way every time. Which makes his harder side even harder.


I"m just the opposite with my club footed horse, because he feels all cockeyed to me and I want him to feel straighter. But even though I've decided to stop obsessing over it and just move on, I do find myself still working to the left more--although that's improving as I accept that he's probably as straight as he's going to get and it's time to move on. But yes, if I hadn't worked him to the left because it's so much harder then he never would have developed the coordination to work to the left.

(I think I'm the only newcomer to Salt Lake City who was pleased to discover that people here give directions as east and west rather than left and right!)


:D
Last edited by kande50 on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Rosie B » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:23 pm

So this is embarrassing, but when I was a kid I taught myself how to do tempi changes. I don't mean skip, I mean do tempi changes on all fours. It was surprisingly difficult even allowing for the fact that I 100% understood the mechanics and the desired outcome. It took several weeks before I could do them without making any mistakes. The coordination required is extreme. I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be for the horse who doesn't understand the mechanics or the desired outcome.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:25 pm

kande50 wrote:I thought horses were born one sided so it's a matter of straightening them rather than making them one-sided? All my horses are stiff to the left to varying degrees, but I have often wondered if a left handed rider would either perceive their straightness issues differently, and/or would be able to straighten them more effectively?



Oh, Lord. this really highlights a difference in my brain. I couldn't tell you which way my horses are stiffer without either sitting here and riding it in my mind and working it out, or getting on them and saying "this side!"

(And on the hot and cold thing, whrn my husband installed our new kitchen tap, which has a lever, he installed it "backwards" because he thought it would be easier for my left handed self to not end up with wet sleeves every time I turned it on. Of course it means the hot and cold are now back to front, so it's like he's playing games with my head while trying to help me :))

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Imperini » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:27 pm

Moutaineer wrote:(And on the hot and cold thing, whrn my husband installed our new kitchen tap, which has a lever, he installed it "backwards" because he thought it would be easier for my left handed self to not end up with wet sleeves every time I turned it on. Of course it means the hot and cold are now back to front, so it's like he's playing games with my head while trying to help me :))


Oh goodness, I can relate to this a bit. My new place has a kitchen and bathroom sink that are opposite to one another. Lots of confusion.

I'm also a lefty with left/right confusion but I guess I never thought to associate it with my handedness. Since everything is designed for right handed people and I've broken my left arm a couple of times I can be somewhat coordinated with my right hand for some things. Right arm is also stronger though the left is certainly far more coordinated. My horse is stiffer bending to the right so I guess that makes her stronger on the left. I feel like she used to be more even when I first got her so maybe it's partially my fault or maybe as we up the ante I just notice it more, or both.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:23 pm

I'm right-handed but am hopeless at differentiating left from right. I started taking shepherding lessons with my dogs, and it turns out I'm also terrible at differentiating clockwise from counterclockwise. Spatial awareness is just not for me.

I separated my right shoulder a couple of years ago, which made me learn how to rely more on my left hand. Once I mastered left-handed chopsticks, I was pretty sure I'd peaked as a person. That's some tricky stuff. Talk about an exercise in empathy for the requests I make of the horses.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:48 am

This thread is becoming hysterically amusing for me. I'm one of those people to whom when you say "clockwise" I think, from the point of view above the clock or below the clock (underneath the mechanism)?! I can never tell which view of the "record spinning" people are talking about.

Rosie, your story made me snort. I have totally tried to figure that out as an adult!! :lol:

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby heddylamar » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:57 am

When I injured my hip last fall, physical therapy put me through a dexterity and strength test with sensors to figure out weaknesses and establish a baseline for my program. It was amusing. I failed (coordinated, I am not) in many things, but the interesting outcome is that one-sideness (or not being one sided) carries through your body. The PT was surprised that my right side was clearly not the strongest throughout (he’d asked what hand I write with — right), and the results confirmed that I’m ambidextrous. There were interesting weaknesses side to side that I do daily exercises to correct.

Anyway, I write and use the Wacom tablet right handed, but switch hands for chef’s/parking knife, chopsticks, toothbrush, torch, etc. It’s come in pretty handy for all the times I’ve broken my right hand/arm.

I try to work on the complicated stuff 30% more on Maia’s less coordinated side (and post-PT, I’m now stronger that direction). And in her slightly stiffer direction (the other way), we do more a few more stretching-type exercises. She’s getting more even too.

I cannot tell right from left.
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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Tsavo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:17 am

Per my personal trainer, most right-handed people have a stronger left leg and vice versa. In doing the balancing exercises, that is certainly true for me.

If by stiffness people are talking about getting a correct bend, that has to do with ROM of the inside hind and ability to rotate the barrel as far as I know. Now why most horses apparently are stiff left has not been solved in my mind. Internal organ placement seems very far fetched. How they lay is the womb is also far fetched in the sense that nobody has shown a prevalence in this as far as I know.

In re club foot, that is very clearly to me a shoulder ROM issue and that ramifies to straightness. In my opinion, and others have said, my club-footed horse is "on the spectrum" of being able to move straight. That is, he is no harder to ride SF than non-club-footed horses. That's one horse with a grade 2 which is the graded that lets you carry on until the bottom drops out on the same side hind. Clubfoot is no excuse not to ride straight.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Chisamba » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:36 am

The hobby horse was a lot of fun, I think the adults enjoyed it most. We had press there and I was interviewed by CBS. We had enough participants to do another in the spring
But we do hope to have more.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:02 pm

Tsavo wrote:
In re club foot, that is very clearly to me a shoulder ROM issue and that ramifies to straightness.


It may, or may not be primarily a shoulder issue, as whatever it is, it most certainly affects the way they place their hinds, which may very likely affect the way they use their back and who knows what else?

In my opinion, and others have said, my club-footed horse is "on the spectrum" of being able to move straight.


I don't think mine is, although I'll likely never know because I'm not willing to force the issue. That, and according to at least some of the odgs, horses don't become straight, but just become straighter than they were.

That is, he is no harder to ride SF than non-club-footed horses.


I can do some semblance of SF left, but it's not correct. In fact, I've finally come to the conclusion that trying to ride my horse straight actually requires him to move in SF all the time, which I'm not so sure is a great idea.

That's one horse with a grade 2 which is the graded that lets you carry on until the bottom drops out on the same side hind.


I don't even know what grade my horse is. The vet who did the check ligament surgery called it moderate and severe in the same report, and it wasn't in any way severe, ever, so I put little stock in his evaluation (or the surgery, now that I've had it done and seen the results). My regular vet never even noticed it.

Clubfoot is no excuse not to ride straight.


Depends, IMO, how "riding straight" affects long term soundness, which is impossible to know. But I want to still be riding my horse into his 30's, so I'm going for moderation, and hoping that will make a difference.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Srhorselady » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:36 pm

With regard to horse stiff sides being left or right sides, I attended a couple of Gerd Heuschmann clinics. He expressed a theory and he stressed it was just a theory based on observation that horse sidedness is genetic as is right/left handedness in humans. What he had noticed while doing clinics all over the world is that most European based breed horses (which includes the US) are stiff one direction while a majority of the breeds/horses from other parts of the world tend to be stiff the opposite direction. Which leads him to suspect there is probably a genetic basis to it. Interesting...

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Chisamba » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:11 pm

My broodmare vet believed it was the way they lay and turned in the womb. However that may be genetic too.
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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:44 pm

https://books.google.com/books/about/Th ... e=kp_cover

this is the best book for describing asymmetries in riders and solutions- yes, I'm all kinds of messed up but it seems very strange it can be so consistent among people. Ie- left side leaners do XYZ- (such as my left thigh comes up and short, my right leg likes to creep forward, I hike my right shoulder forward, and my left drops, I sit with my left seatbone too far to the right, etc etc)

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Tsavo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:30 pm

kande50 wrote:That, and according to at least some of the odgs, horses don't become straight, but just become straighter than they were.


Who said that? It sounds wacky. Any sound horse can be taught SF.

I can do some semblance of SF left, but it's not correct. In fact, I've finally come to the conclusion that trying to ride my horse straight actually requires him to move in SF all the time, which I'm not so sure is a great idea.


Straightness is generally considered to conduce to lack of harm as far as I know. If I didn't ride my horse straight I wonder if he would have made it to his early twenties.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:56 pm

kande50 wrote:
I can do some semblance of SF left, but it's not correct. In fact, I've finally come to the conclusion that trying to ride my horse straight actually requires him to move in SF all the time, which I'm not so sure is a great idea.
.


Straight horses are sound horses, as are horses that get off the forehand and don't pound the front legs

Yes, you ride everything in 1st position after the horse understands contact, this is why the outside rein is so important to understand.

*My* belief is riding in a short neck and stiff makes a horse sore, not dressage in itself. Riding correctly helps them activate the abs/thorasic sling and it is much healthier. Like when we do core work. we also put less stress on the parts of our bodies that should not take the strain- lower back and shoulders.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:48 pm

Srhorselady wrote:With regard to horse stiff sides being left or right sides, I attended a couple of Gerd Heuschmann clinics. He expressed a theory and he stressed it was just a theory based on observation that horse sidedness is genetic as is right/left handedness in humans. What he had noticed while doing clinics all over the world is that most European based breed horses (which includes the US) are stiff one direction while a majority of the breeds/horses from other parts of the world tend to be stiff the opposite direction. Which leads him to suspect there is probably a genetic basis to it. Interesting...


I also read somewhere that racehorses who run to the left tend to be stiff to the left, while those who run to the right (Europe, or Australia, or somewhere) tend to be stiff to the right. The theory was that they may have been selected for generations for an enhanced ability to run to the left, so it's now genetic, but due to artificial rather than natural selection.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:02 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Straight horses are sound horses, as are horses that get off the forehand and don't pound the front legs.


Yet so many dressage horses break down due to back and hind end issues. In fact, hind suspensory fails seem to be a common problem in dressage horses. Don't know if it's true or not, but better diagnostics seem to now be showing that dressage horses as a group are the most damaged of all horses, which includes race horses, eventers, jumpers, and endurance horses. I know that correlation is not necessarily causation, but it does me wonder whether dressage really does benefit horses, or if that's just something that those with something to sell like to believe?

Yes, you ride everything in 1st position after the horse understands contact, this is why the outside rein is so important to understand.


First position yes, but not si. I think first position for my horse may be just a little bit bent to the right, because everything I'm doing with him now seems to much easier for him now that I've quit trying to straighten him more.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:41 pm

Who rides in full SI? Never heard that one before

Its about the inside leg and outside shoulder more than bending.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:22 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Who rides in full SI? Never heard that one before.


Full si as in true si, rather than in sf.

Its about the inside leg and outside shoulder more than bending.


Something else I was thinking about re: the stepping under of the inside hind. Why do we want the inside hind to step under more when the goal is for all the joints of the hind leg to flex more so the horse sits more? Wouldn't stepping under more extend many of the joints that need to flex to carry, so be counterproductive to developing collection?

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Dresseur » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:07 pm

SI is the cornerstone of collection because it is like weight lifting. The horse must be strong to be able to bear more weight behind and take shorter, more articulated steps.
In SI, it’s not just stepping more under, it’s stepping more under center mass of the horse. And, because each lateral movement allows you to isolate one hind leg, you cause it to bear more weight. The strength gained from that over the years, and the rest of the training of responses and suppleness etc., leads to eventual collection.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:28 pm

kande50 wrote:Wouldn't stepping under more extend many of the joints that need to flex to carry, so be counterproductive to developing collection?


No.

SI's purpose is a collecting exercise. We are moving the whole horse, not just activating the inside leg. That is just part of it. It's not the only thing moving so there is no stress on it as far as torque.

Collection done in stages at the midlevels (back to front) is very theraputic for the horses. It builds carrying muscles in abs and back so the joints and neck are not stressed.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby kande50 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:35 pm

Dresseur wrote:SI is the cornerstone of collection because it is like weight lifting. The horse must be strong to be able to bear more weight behind and take shorter, more articulated steps.


I think that may be the part I've been missing (shorter). I get too focused on keeping everything the same (tempo, rhythm, speed), and that's never going to work because the speed (the rate at which he covers ground) does need to slow down.

I had this exact same problem with my last horse (trying to develop collection while at the same time not letting her slow down).

I did start working on it last time I rode by half halting before the corners and turns, and that worked a lot better. So I wrote "HH's before all transitions" on my blackboard, and am planning to start making that a habit next ride.

In SI, it’s not just stepping more under, it’s stepping more under center mass of the horse. And, because each lateral movement allows you to isolate one hind leg, you cause it to bear more weight. The strength gained from that over the years, and the rest of the training of responses and suppleness etc., leads to eventual collection.


That's why I was wondering if he might be stepping under too much, as it looks like his left hind may actually be stepping past his mid line at times. But maybe that's what he needs to do to compensate for his right front club, so I'm going to ignore that and concentrate on transitions and HH's for now.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:10 pm

I guess we would need video of what you are discussing to say for sure.

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Re: Musings on Hobby Horse, stall cleaning and seemingly irrelevant topics

Postby Dresseur » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:36 pm

That's why I was wondering if he might be stepping under too much, as it looks like his left hind may actually be stepping past his mid line at times. But maybe that's what he needs to do to compensate for his right front club, so I'm going to ignore that and concentrate on transitions and HH's for now.


Stepping too far under, stepping wide behind or going base narrow are also evasions because the horse avoids taking it's full weight on the isolated leg. If the horse consistently steps too far under center mass, I would go for more bend, less angle (so less displacement off the wall) to reduce the temptation to sweep the leg that far under.


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