Rein length and connection for the lower levels

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Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 pm

I'm curious everyone's thoughts on rein length - do you ride on a shorter or longer rein? Do you feel you can achieve connection on a longer rein (let's not invoke ODGs with looped reins in piaffe here - it's a goal, but not relevant to a lower level horse, IMO).

Are you trying to change anything related to rein length in your riding (e.g. hand position?)

Where do you feel your elbow should be in "neutral" e.g. during a working trot? If you are working towards 2nd/3rd, has your rein length changed due to either trainer correction or your horse's development?

When Hilda Gurney was here a few years ago she said almost all Americans ride with reins too long. I tend to agree with this, and observe that although it comes from a place of wanting to ride with a light contact, riding back-to-front, etc, it results in hand-riding, because the wrist has to break to make contact, people start losing the elbow/hand/bit line, and using their hands instead of connecting the bit to the lower back and elbow.
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:54 pm

I'm told frequently in lessons to shorten my reins. I've inspected videos and the only time Annabelle is BTV is in a stretch where we put her a little deep on purpose. We'll work on a longer rein in stretch to get her IFV as she develops the strength to maintain a nice bascule in that position. In regular working position, she is usually pretty well IFV, which is appropriate for her training level, but I'm able to maintain connection when she gets unsteady and goes a little high or low.

This is a working trot still from our last lesson. Just curious if anyone thinks my reins are too long or too short? Looking at the video, she has moments during the canter stride that she goes BTV, but also has room to come up and out. Showing this one because I tend to ride a little longer rein when I'm on my own. I think I'm lucky to have longer arms, so I can accommodate a fairly broad range of motion without losing connection.

https://youtu.be/bbrYGpvgGew
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Srhorselady » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:30 pm

Okay. I’ll take a stab at commenting on this. First I will say that having the reins too long has always been a major problem for me. It is one of those issues where “my feel” lies to me and I have a horrible problem getting the reins to the correct shorter length. I’m also not good at shortening the reins while riding but quite good at loosening. :D I believe that having the horse in front of the leg is directly connected to having correct connection. When the reins are too slack the horse is usually behind the leg to some extent. But I also think that riding that perfect edge with the perfect contact consistently is one the greatest signs of an great rider. You don’t see it often. Now to comment on SFs video. SF is a good rider, but the contact is definitely better and the horse is more in front of the leg in the later part of the video. But I would totally understand if the first half “felt” better. :D

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby musical comedy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:32 pm

This is one of those many subjects where we get into conflicting opinions. People will point to various writings of both odgs and current bnt's along with photos of them showing various rein lengths to support their thinking.

If you were to listen in on my current lessons, you would hear "shorten your reins" many times. Often I reply "but I have a choker chain on her now :D "

Like you, if left on my own my reins get too long. I think if someone can keep a horse connected and in front of the seat/aid with longer reins (or no reins), then good for them and go for it. I think when riding less trained horses and especially by less then pro riders, it is very beneficial to keep the reins short. The key is to be short without being restrictive, which is why some trainers will say "shorten your reins forward".

The problem comes in, at least for me, that when you ride with a forward short rein, you are not going to get that elbow way back at hip with that 45degree angle that so many classicists want. You can get it, but only after the horse really engages behind and comes up in front. While at the lower level of work and teaching a greener horse, it is hard. They mostly try to fight the contact because it is harder for them to engage and work into it. Then, while we dummies are on our own, we slip the reins a bit, the horse loves it, and it feels great to us. If we continue like that, progression is more difficult if not impossible. That said, there are always those that are able to get ahead no matter why style they use.

For you SF, I commented on an earlier thread that I always noticed how good you rein contact was. I assumed it was from riding jumping horses.

Lastly for imo on stretching, in our warmup work, I stretch very low and round and deep. I could care less about btv.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:33 pm

short but with a long neck.
I do some stretching work on long reins, but prob 25%. I like to be able to vary the length and nothing changes, although riding on long reins makes them (generally) stay on the forehand. 99% of us are riding on too long of a rein

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:34 pm

SF I wouldn't want the reins any longer if you want my opinion

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:48 pm

I have been dealing with this lately. It is a complex issue. I am much more comfortable with my upper arm parallel to my uppper body and my elbows at my hips, but to do this, I seem to end up with too long a rein. When the rein is too long, as you mentioned Hilda said, I tend to have to break at the wrist to maintain the connection. OTH, when I ride with shorter reins, and my elbows ahead of my hips, the connection is less stable for me, I think because I use my hips as a very clear point of reference. If I dont have that clear point of reference, I don’t keep my hands in exactly the same place and the connection suffers.

The big thing is, that each horse needs a different rein length depending on his temperament, his conformation, and, his level of training. So the rider needs to be able to feel exactly what the rein length needs to be for any given situation.

I am getting a much better feel for how to find the correct rein length for a particular horse at a particular time, but it has taken a long time since I don’t ride lots of different horses.

What I have learned from just my last lesson on Mystique, a school horse that I’ve ridden 5 times now, is that I need to set the rein length at the beginning of the ride and constantly pay attention to not let them slip longer. She is very recently a former eventer, so while she is in good physical condition, she is not yet well schooled in dressage connection. Our first four rides together were hit or miss on the connection, but the last ride was really neat and fun because I got the rein length correct, and kept it. I have another lesson on her tomorrow and I am excited to see how it goes.

I struggled with rein length on Emma and in retrospect, I think I was close to figuring it out before I put her on hold because of the sweet itch. She is much more complicated than the lesson horse but it is the complicating issues that are helping me to figure out the basics of rein length. Em bucked me off while I was figuring out rein length. She was dealing with frustration of the fly allergy and my inconsistent rein length and connection was more than she could handle.

Rocky is responding well to what I am learning about rein length and contact. She is much less complicated than Emma or Mystique.

I will try to get some vid of Rocky soon.
Last edited by demi on Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:48 pm

Srhorselady wrote:the contact is definitely better and the horse is more in front of the leg in the later part of the video. But I would totally understand if the first half “felt” better. :D


I agree with that. Those were excerpts from a 45 minute lesson - instructor guides us into getting more "together" and hence shortening the reins, through the workout. The first part definitely feels easier - I'd say that latter part feels good, but it's definitely more intense, and I will not generally push us there on my own.
musical comedy wrote:This is one of those many subjects where we get into conflicting opinions. People will point to various writings of both odgs and current bnt's along with photos of them showing various rein lengths to support their thinking.

The problem comes in, at least for me, that when you ride with a forward short rein, you are not going to get that elbow way back at hip with that 45degree angle that so many classicists want. You can get it, but only after the horse really engages behind and comes up in front. While at the lower level of work and teaching a greener horse, it is hard. They mostly try to fight the contact because it is harder for them to engage and work into it. Then, while we dummies are on our own, we slip the reins a bit, the horse loves it, and it feels great to us. If we continue like that, progression is more difficult if not impossible. That said, there are always those that are able to get ahead no matter why style they use.


Agreed. If the horse is very steady and together, I think a vertical upper arm makes a lot of sense. However, young horses have a larger range of motion of their head and neck while learning to balance, and engage, so I think the vertical arm ideal is unrealistic at least until collection is started, or in a gait in which the horse can be very consistent. I think this might change a little on a horse that is very naturally up in front. A longer rein risks dropping the young horse when the head position changes due to momentary loss of balance - exactly the moment when the horse needs a little more help.

A random thought I had on this subject is that, if a line is drawn down the horse's face, and another line through the rider's torso, they should either be parallel lines or trending towards an "A" shape. Trending towards a "V" shape is bad news (excluding purposely riding a deeper stretch, but the rider's body should probably be a little IFV in that case anyway.
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:02 pm

StraightForward wrote:... If the horse is very steady and together, I think a vertical upper arm makes a lot of sense. However, young horses have a larger range of motion of their head and neck while learning to balance, and engage, so I think the vertical arm ideal is unrealistic at least until collection is started, or in a gait in which the horse can be very consistent. I think this might change a little on a horse that is very naturally up in front. A longer rein risks dropping the young horse when the head position changes due to momentary loss of balance - exactly the moment when the horse needs a little more help.

...


I tend to agree with the above, but I need to think about it. A young horse can go very nicely in side reins. And the sidereins aren’t always changing in length to accommodate the young horse’s larger range of motion and lack of balance. We may start them on a longer side rein and shorten it during one session, but still they don’t change length from moment to moment. And the young auction horses go very steadily under riders with vertical upper arms. (PLEASE NOTE: i am not advocating lots of lunging in side reins, and I also understand that NOT all auction training practices are good!).

This is just making me think that a lot can be learned by the rider in the way of rein length and connection.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:10 pm

I just want to add that I would be very happy with SF’s connection, and I can see the change from the beginning of the lesson to the end. I think that you are working on the issue much the same way I do, and that is, to keep harmony while figuring out what needs to be done. I think your trainer is doing well by pushing you just enough to make a change but not to the point of getting the horse (and rider) flustered.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:14 pm

I occasionally lunge Annabelle in sliding sidereins (Lauffer reins). My observation is that it's easier for her to be steady because she is not balancing my weight on her back, and is traveling on a predictable circle line. Although I try to control her lateral balance, I can't manage her body parts as closely as if I'm in the saddle, so she can compensate for losses of balance by getting a little crooked. However, I keep the SR's pretty loose, and when she finds her balance, especially in canter, they are not at all taught. I don't observe horses in side reins maintaining a steady connection, especially in transitions. Perhaps at trot, but again, most horses are not having their balance challenged when maintaining a working trot on a consistently-sized circle.

I was specifically thinking of auction horses, and other green purpose-bred horses when I mentioned that the arm position may change on a horse that is naturally up in front. My thought is that I'll be able to ride Tesla with my arm a little more vertical from the beginning due to her natural carriage, as compared to Annabelle, who was bred for Western pleasure.

I will post some more photos tonight demonstrating what happens in our less picturesque moments. :)
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby musical comedy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:17 pm

StraightForward wrote:Agreed. If the horse is very steady and together, I think a vertical upper arm makes a lot of sense. However, young horses have a larger range of motion of their head and neck while learning to balance, and engage, so I think the vertical arm ideal is unrealistic at least until collection is started, or in a gait in which the horse can be very consistent. I think this might change a little on a horse that is very naturally up in front. A longer rein risks dropping the young horse when the head position changes due to momentary loss of balance - exactly the moment when the horse needs a little more help.
I don't know about that; could be, I never thought about it that way. My thinking (based on my trainers) is that the horse has to move into the contact. If you have long reins (even if they start out having contact) if the horse drops the connection you have your reins in your lap. Or, if the horse starts to pull or try to root, then you end up rotating your reins backward.

The thing is imo that if you (g) have been able to train a horse up through collection using the long reins, elbow at the hip thing, then all is good. If you haven't and have horses that never progress up the levels, then maybe rethink your methods.

SrHorseLady wrote:When the reins are too slack the horse is usually behind the leg to some extent.
Usually true. There are some people that seem to be able to do movements (some advanced) with a horse behind the leg. It's sort of like trick training. I don't know how they do it, because I sure can't.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:30 pm

musical comedy wrote:My thinking (based on my trainers) is that the horse has to move into the contact. If you have long reins (even if they start out having contact) if the horse drops the connection you have your reins in your lap. Or, if the horse starts to pull or try to root, then you end up rotating your reins backward.


I think those are two sides of the same coin, if you can accept dropping the connection, pulling and rooting as manifestations of loss of balance (and I think, good examples of things that should be corrected before they ever get to that stage). If a horse is rooting, the legs are out the back door already. If the reins are already long, it will be difficult/impossible to use core strength to resist the rooting while booting the horse up and back IFL. However, I'm thinking of less dramatic changes, such as losing balance for a couple strides in transitions or changes of bend - I have a couple examples from screenshots that I will post when I get home.
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:33 pm

I ride with a vertical upper arm when neutral, I would release forward as a reward or to lengthen the neck without lengthening my reins. I also release slightly forward before the half half, and yes, I half halt using my rein too.

So rein length. An instructor had us negotiate a pattern where we were paired with a partner who did not know the pattern, and rein. So picture two people, one in front of the other, the front person with hands linked in front of them holding the bit the rear person holding reins Ok so the person behind knows the pattern and the one in front doesnt.

Every single time the shorter rein and firmer contact succeeded best and quickest.

I suggest you try it with a friend. Dont discuss rules. Don't tell the friend anything about the contact verbally. All communication must be gestural. Take turns being the horse and rider.

See how quickly the horse tries to guess the pattern and take over. See how difficult it is to feel a one sided rider.

Anyway, the fact that you get on a horse and ride it makes me assume you are okay with the idea that you are telling them what to do. So what is the most clear concise and considerate way to do it?
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:43 pm

Great topic, SF. For me, I can almost always be told to close my hands on the reins and it would be fair. I used to be far worse about too long of a rein, but I'm a bit better about that at this point.

I'm aware that my rein length will shorten through our warm-up. Thinking of warming up through the levels, we start out in a more training level frame and then become more compact with a shorter rein as we transition to current 2nd/3rd level range work. I also very deliberately think of changing the frame, changing the bend, and changing the stride length through our work. Generally, in the working period, I give room to lengthen the frame my moving my hand forward, rather than changing my rein position. However, I do need to keep an eye on whether I am dropping the rein, as my hands are quite weak and I am actually unable to close them completely. I would probably eliminate this bad habit if I had a less polite horse who bolted when I did this! :lol:

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:51 pm

Chisamba wrote:I ride with a vertical upper arm when neutral, I would release forward as a reward or to lengthen the neck without lengthening my reins. I also release slightly forward before the half half, and yes, I half halt using my rein too.

So rein length. An instructor had us negotiate a pattern where we were paired with a partner who did not know the pattern, and rein. So picture two people, one in front of the other, the front person with hands linked in front of them holding the bit the rear person holding reins Ok so the person behind knows the pattern and the one in front doesnt.

Every single time the shorter rein and firmer contact succeeded best and quickest.

I suggest you try it with a friend. Dont discuss rules. Don't tell the friend anything about the contact verbally. All communication must be gestural. Take turns being the horse and rider.

See how quickly the horse tries to guess the pattern and take over. See how difficult it is to feel a one sided rider.

Anyway, the fact that you get on a horse and ride it makes me assume you are okay with the idea that you are feeling them what to do. So what is the most clear concise and considerate way to do it?


The part I put in red is what I am learning. And that’s why I brought up the auction horses, and side reins. Even though we may not be able to observe the horse in sidereins maintaining a steady connection especially in transitions, their carriage is still very steady because of the clear boundaries set by the sidereins (“or shorter rein firmer contact”). Once the horse can trust the boundaries (and her learns the trust when the boundary stays the same as you put him through what ever pattern) we can then start to teach him to seek and maintain the contact. If the boundary isn’t solid and secure, he doesn’t know where to find the contact.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby musical comedy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:05 pm

demi wrote:And the young auction horses go very steadily under riders with vertical upper arms. (PLEASE NOTE: i am not advocating lots of lunging in side reins, and I also understand that NOT all auction training practices are good!).
Yes, but as I wrote above, you're pointing to an example of someone that rides the way you believe. First of all, those auction horses are ridden extremely forward and most are not relaxed and over the back. They are ridden to show as much extravagance as can be achieved. The riders sit on them like they were very advanced horses and 'drive' them up into the contact so that they look like they are fei horses when they are only 3-4 years old.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:08 pm

Obviously this topic is on my mind!

I agree that, in general, it should be easier to keep a vertical upper arm on a purpose bred horse, than on one not built for the job we have in mind. Rocky is half quarter horse and built down hill. I almost relegated her to trail a few years ago because I found it so difficult to keep her moving “up and under”. It was very uncomfortable to sit her trot and canter while trying to keep the reins short and steady enough to be effective..

But other issues too, came into play, and each horse has to be considered individually. Rocky is a dominant personality and I am a rider in an older body. I had to set her boundary (shorten my rein) in a way that didnt cause her to unload me. It has taken years, but now I can tell her “this is the rein length we are using” and she willingly complys. To get her to this point I longed her in sidereins carefully and for short periods(5, at most 10 minutes) a couple times a week. Also, having my trainer ride her has helped a lot in getting her to work willingly.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby blob » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:22 pm

I think it's probably accurate that most riders that I see have reins that are too long. And it's definitely a problem for me. Nearly anytime I see myself on video the firs thing I think is, "damnit, my reins!"

Do I think you should be able to ride a horse in an honest, through connection at any length? Yes, absolutely but that does not mean any length is the right length for the work you're trying to do.

For me, in the transition from training to first to second, it's not just about the shortening the reins, it's also about lifting the hand. The horse should be sitting more behind, their shoulder should be coming up more, their poll should be coming up more, and so, to maintain the correct connection with that balance rein should be shorter, arms should be higher. And for me the combination of this is critical because it's really hard to do one without the other and get the connect you should be seeking.

I also think it depends on the horse--not how they should be ridden, but how they tend to go. I have two--a very green gelding, and a 2nd/3rd level mare. My mare is much further along and is naturally fairly uphill. She's also very soft and light the contact. For some reason her softness/lightness makes it easy for me to end up with longer reins, lower hands than I should have. And that has become esp evident now that we've been working in the double more. If I dn't keep the rein short enough in the double, her poll drops entirely too much. Normally with a greener horse, longer rein, lower hand would be what I would expect. But my gelding is a bit funny in the mouth, so really he goes best in a shorter rein and i don't hae to think much about it--if my rein gets too long, he gets mouthy or starts rooting.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:23 pm

musical comedy wrote:
demi wrote:And the young auction horses go very steadily under riders with vertical upper arms. (PLEASE NOTE: i am not advocating lots of lunging in side reins, and I also understand that NOT all auction training practices are good!).
Yes, but as I wrote above, you're pointing to an example of someone that rides the way you believe. First of all, those auction horses are ridden extremely forward and most are not relaxed and over the back. They are ridden to show as much extravagance as can be achieved. The riders sit on them like they were very advanced horses and 'drive' them up into the contact so that they look like they are fei horses when they are only 3-4 years old.



I’m not sure where you got that idea that auction horses and riders are an example of riding “the way that I believe”. I often point out harmony as a necessary thing for dressage, and horses that are forward to the extreme, and not relaxed and over the back are NOT harmonious.

I do believe in the necessity of going forward, and I think from some of your comments, that you do, too. And that is where I have sometimes gotten in trouble wrt reinlength. IF the horse isn’t going forward enough, THEN, too short a rein will cause him to go even less forward, SO, I too often, have let the rein length slip longer to keep the harmony and the relaxation “over the back” But I am not advocating driving the horse extremely forward just so I can shorten the reins. Its a balance.

It is a balance, and finding the right balance can take some people, like me, a long time.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby khall » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:13 pm

For me it really depends on the horse as to where my reins end up. With most I ride, yeah too long. Watching Cedar ride Rip last weekend clinic showed me again I need to ask a bit more from him now (I heard shorten your reins a good bit in Spain:) i.e. shorten the rein, raise my hands, leg but with Juliet who is a bit of a power on kind of girl and not in the most balanced way I can get too short, trying to rectify this riding her.

I am of the vertical arm and elbows at side camp. While I do think a properly trained and developed horse can be ridden with a drape to the rein or even bridle less, it does not mean that there is never contact with the reins. Training requires contact of varying degree depending on the horse, the drape or bridle less is a test of that training, very much like riding one handed with curb only is a test.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:40 am

musical comedy wrote:The problem comes in, at least for me, that when you ride with a forward short rein, you are not going to get that elbow way back at hip with that 45degree angle that so many classicists want. You can get it, but only after the horse really engages behind and comes up in front. While at the lower level of work and teaching a greener horse, it is hard. They mostly try to fight the contact because it is harder for them to engage and work into it. Then, while we dummies are on our own, we slip the reins a bit, the horse loves it, and it feels great to us. If we continue like that, progression is more difficult if not impossible. That said, there are always those that are able to get ahead no matter why style they use.


I agree with this.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Kyra's Mom » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:08 am

I was just fussing with this yesterday. I haven't ridden a whole lot for a long while but yesterday noticed that if I did not have the reins short enough...I lost her. Some body part would bulge, she got crooked and boom, my hands were in my lap trying to correct everything...it doesn't work very well.
So, I worked on shortening the rein. I am still doing most of my work at walk and I tend to ride an exercise then feed her rein out and let her stretch in a quest not to screw up her nice walk. However, when we are working on an exercise...we are working and I need to have the appropriate connection.

I did do a few short trot sets and concentrated on the connection and I felt the trot was quite nice. Forward, energetic and connected. I didn't work on anything nearing collection. I just need a nice forward and rhythmic trot to get myself back into the swing of it. Yesterday was better (back wise) than the first time I trotted her.

I definitely think most times our (us AA) reins are too long. I guess I don't exactly care about classical position and will take effective position. My body isn't built classically :P and currently it is too heavy and too wide so my arms aren't hanging quite as they should. I am working on that stuff off the horse and muddle along as best I can on the horse.

As far the the picture...I feel that is a good connection for the place she is at. As she gets stronger and more under behind, yes, it the reins will shorten.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby kande50 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:01 am

Kyra's Mom wrote:I guess I don't exactly care about classical position and will take effective position.


Same here. I spend time in what I think is probably a more classical position, or at least as close as I can get to it, but also subscribe to the belief that I can sometimes help my horse understand if I can make the cues more obvious--with the goal being to fade them to more subtle cues later.

One thing I try very hard to avoid though, is upping the pressure, as I've found that pushing harder is a slippery slope that just simply doesn't work to get anything worth having.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:33 am

I don't think the elbow or arm position changes with rein length, or is affected by rein length, or in my opinion relates to it.

The hands stay in the same place over the withers, elbows just ahead of the trunk with a straight line bit to elbow. Short reins should not compromise the rider's position. They might actually be *too short* if that is not allowing for good posture.

The reason people can't maintain that classical position is also why people can't have a giving hand on short reins, if you ask me. Its about the elbow opening and closing, and knowing what belongs to the horse and what belongs to the rider. YMMV, it's just my opinion.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby kande50 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:04 pm

Ryeissa wrote:I don't think the elbow or arm position changes with rein length, or is affected by rein length, or in my opinion relates to it.


If neither the elbow nor arm position changes, then the only way to give with the reins would be by opening the fingers, which IMO, would be an inadequate give/release for all but the most advanced horses.


The reason people can't maintain that classical position is also why people can't have a giving hand on short reins, if you ask me. Its about the elbow opening and closing, and knowing what belongs to the horse and what belongs to the rider. YMMV, it's just my opinion.


I can't see how the elbow could open or close without affecting the arm position. The forearm could move up, down, and sideways, but wouldn't be able to give forward unless the upper arm moved.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:27 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:I don't think the elbow or arm position changes with rein length, or is affected by rein length, or in my opinion relates to it.


If neither the elbow nor arm position changes, then the only way to give with the reins would be by opening the fingers, which IMO, would be an inadequate give/release for all but the most advanced horses.


The reason people can't maintain that classical position is also why people can't have a giving hand on short reins, if you ask me. Its about the elbow opening and closing, and knowing what belongs to the horse and what belongs to the rider. YMMV, it's just my opinion.


I can't see how the elbow could open or close without affecting the arm position. The forearm could move up, down, and sideways, but wouldn't be able to give forward unless the upper arm moved.


the elbows always move open and close AT THE JOINT ONLY to allow the neck to move, except in trot. There is no overt move of the arm or fingers. Its a following, this is very basic.

I do not understand your first sentence. There is an elastic contact (due to the elbows following) but this isn't the same as over-giving or throwing the reins away.

My point was that if you can't maintain proper arm placement (elbows just ahead of trunk, upper arm at a slight forward angle relative to trunk, hands out in front of the withers) they are too short. Start with the hand placement to determine the rein length. Don't hike the reins up too short and then have the arms too straight or disunited from the body. This creates all kinds of issues.

The placement of the arms relates to the shoulders, this all relates to the core and neutral spine. If you loose the soft anchor of the hands, you loose the rest as well. This is also why (as most of us know) the lack of a core stacking up makes hands all kinds of wiggly and wobbly.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:56 pm

In my opinion, the shorter the rein the easier it is to quash any backward hand. The more you force yourself to ride with the correct shorter rein, the more you learn to automatically give forward in small and big ways which horses really dig.

Also, the shorter the rein, the more ability you have to sense when you can collect without shortening the neck. Collection is generally thought of as a shortening but that is of the bottom line. The topline needs to lengthen as the haunches come under.

I note elite riders tend to ride with shorter reins. There is probably a reason.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Josette » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:59 pm

SF - I really like how you are riding your mare including your rein length for her training level. IMO you are right on with your contact and getting her forward to accepting a better connection. My amateur eye really likes what you are doing here. Down the road as she progresses I could see your elbows moving back slightly to hang from your shoulders - and that would shorter the rein I feel. The rider always strives for correct posture and balance but it must be adjustable to the horse's level of balance, self carriage and training. At least that is my perception.... :|

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:10 pm

Here are a few recent photos - I think the reins are a little long in all of them since I didn't have someone there with "shorten your reins - shorten your reins A LOT" on auto-repeat. :lol: However, I think it also demonstrates how having a certain minimum connection/weight on an unsteady horse allows almost automatic adjustment to their bobbles, which even out over time

The first is the canter phase no one ever wants a photo of :lol: I don't remember what was going on here. Clearly she was too on the forehand, but she hasn't got significantly above or below the bit, but I think it shows how much hinging of the elbow happens every canter stride, per Rye's posts. I'm guessing I wasn't having the best time here give how I've started to slump and give away my shoulders though. Now I want to look back at this video because I think my reins have gotten long.
Downbeat.JPG
Downbeat.JPG (36.64 KiB) Viewed 18680 times

Second is a couple strides after a down transition from canter. Those still go "splat" a little and her body lengthened out; I gave a little forward, but with a longer rein she probably would have fallen more on the forehand and wouldn't have been able to salvage the trot quality quite as quickly.
August Trot.JPG
August Trot.JPG (37.47 KiB) Viewed 18680 times

Third is either a couple strides into cantering, or when I was trying to get her a little more in tune to the outside aids and she's inverted a little, but contact wasn't lost, so I was able to push her on and she didn't learn that inverting is an effective contact evasion.
August Canter.JPG
August Canter.JPG (35.63 KiB) Viewed 18680 times

So those are the examples of where I think a green horse needs a fair bit of flexibility to deal with balance. I really limit use of SRs because she immediately scrunches her neck up and takes a lot of driving forward to take any contact. I still do some because it seems to help her figure out compressing her body, but I don't think it's very useful for teaching/expecting contact for this horse.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:12 pm

And since I'm on a roll - here is stretchy trot done on my own October 1. Reins have gotten too long, and I've resorted to a backward hand acting against the bars.
stretchy trot 100118.JPG
stretchy trot 100118.JPG (33.63 KiB) Viewed 18679 times

Stretch two weeks later under instruction - reins kept much shorter and horse kept in better bascule (note better use of hind leg) - line from bit to elbow is maintained.
October Stretch.JPG
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Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:31 pm

StraightForward wrote:And since I'm on a roll - here is stretchy trot done on my own October 1. Reins have gotten too long, and I've resorted to a backward hand acting against the bars.


I think, if you ask me, the hands would work "less back" the more you lift your sternum UP? It tends to activate my ribcage upper abs when I do this, so I can carry the hands better. Might not be related for you........?

This is related to the pic with the grey shirt.

Overall nice work! quite an interesting discussion....
Last edited by Ryeissa on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:31 pm

Nice pictures and description, SF. Thanks for posting. Lots to think about and analyze here. I will try to get similar pics with Rocky soon (yay! Soloshot!) Although no canter for her yet, i think I will be able to see a lot about my rein length now that she is trotting again. The trainsitions, and the stretchy trot should be really telling about how I am handling my reins, and how she is responding.

My trainer said it is fine if I get robot video of my lessons. I am not sure if it will work because she has a semi indoor arena. I have a lesson today but it is raining and windy so I wont even try. Hopefully next week.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:39 pm

SF you have very good hands and upper arm placement, I don't see you throwing the reins away or disuniting the elbows. They are in the right location! Good job. I wish I had that consistency.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:51 pm

Tsavo wrote:In my opinion, the shorter the rein the easier it is to quash any backward hand. The more you force yourself to ride with the correct shorter rein, the more you learn to automatically give forward in small and big ways which horses really dig. Also, the shorter the rein, the more ability you have to sense when you can collect without shortening the neck.


I am quoting because I agree with all of these points and have been taught them by a number of people I trust.

An easy check I use to make sure my rein is appropriately short is to see if lateral work is easy. If it is, no problem. If we're not in control and wiggle-wagging all over the place, my reins are too long. Since I do a lot of work of forward-back, lateral work to medium to collected in trot, this is an easy place for me to check.

p.s. It would still help me enormously if my hands didn't seize up, cramp and lead me to dropping the rein! :lol:

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby exvet » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:07 pm

I am now riding with a shorter rein consistently. The key, I am told (and agree), is to ride with a forward thinking hand/elbow without giving up the elbow. The reality is that my arms are only so long so to not ride back to front but to have the horse encouraged to always seek the hand I must ride with my elbows with a hint of more forward than at the 'ideal' spot by my side during this early training stage. The goal is to help my horse build strength and develop more engagement and compact frame appropriate for the level without shortening the neck and eventually I should find my elbow more 'correct/ideal' in location. Another point made to me was that I have better timing to adjust to the changes and 'testing' of the contact when I ride with a shorter rein. I don't want to inadvertently reward the horse by backing off on the contact if what I want is for him to step into more contact with the hind end. If I keep lightening up or throwing away on the contact, the more likely result will be a horse that lacks coming truly through and over the back. There are of course risks involved and having a good feel for what you're trying to develop helps but since I am acutely aware of the dangers I also have an eye on the ground to make sure that my contact, which at times is stronger, isn't negatively impacting the hind legs.

I am at the edge of the envelope pushing past it with my 4 year old in order to get him to accept a heavier contact with the intent of being able to ride in a lighter contact when appropriate but with true connection and coming through. To do that and to avoid the mistakes of my past, I must get him to accept me pushing him into a heavier contact in order to recycle the energy and get him to step under. Without developing this piece it is far more difficult to engage and strengthen his hind end. As MC warned me in another thread, there is a risk of rearing with some horses pushed too far to fast. Junior did give me a solid rear the other day but I did not give in/up on the contact. His neck was not short and I wouldn't say he felt trapped but he was definitely trying to convince me to give in to his demands to ride on a lighter and longer rein. In the past I probably would have diplomatically skirted the issue, given him his way and found another way to try to get him to do as I asked. Unfortunately this issue has been developing due to challenges with the canter depart. He's been leaping into the canter dropping his wither and going way above the bit. Per my instructor and Heather Blitz they both felt if I didn't face the monster now it would only resurface later and at a time when he would be stronger and possibly not ever get past it. I decided to follow their advice and let's just say it was a momentary resistance that has since improved significantly. I do not recommend people going about this without an educated eye on the ground and if there is any fear of rearing, don't do it if the horse is threatening this.

This is likely my last dance and I honestly feel I have one built to do the job. Given the muscling that is developing, his willingness to still seek the hand and lovely stretchy circles, with proper work - developing a nicely swinging back and power to go with it all, I think we're still on the right path; so, a shorter rein we will go as long as it's not a shorter neck. Of course all of this is backed up with a balanced seat and always starting with the seat and leg sending the horse into the hand. I guess my point is that I'm not riding on a shorter rein in a vacuum. It's one piece of recycling the energy with the goal that I am able to ride with more and more true, honest contact on a neutral rein with forward energy....... until a half halt is needed to re-balance - the exercise being tackled dictates the number of half-halts and the balance and response of the horses dictates the 'degree' of contact and/or weight in the rein at any given time.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Great perspective, exvet. I think this is exactly why this is tricky: Not only do we need rider skills, but we need trainer skills to communicate a standard when training/developing horses---but also realize that it can be *hard* for them physically and/or mentally (very hard at times) as they learn. And training/learning comes a little at time but still with a clear set of expectations.

I know I have totally done the "skirt the issue" approach in the past and I have a better sense now of the problems that creates.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby StraightForward » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:48 pm

Thank you for the feedback and great discussion!

Rye - keeping my sternum up is top of my list right now for improving. I also notice that when the sternum is up, the upper arms tend to stay more as a unit with the torso, but elastically, not rigidly - probably because the scapula slide back/down.

Exvet, thank you for describing your process with Junior. It's especially helpful to hear from someone who has developed horses through the levels and is now refining the approach to the foundational work with a youngster.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:00 pm

StraightForward wrote:Thank you for the feedback and great discussion! Rye - keeping my sternum up is top of my list right now for improving. I also notice that when the sternum is up, the upper arms tend to stay more as a unit with the torso, but elastically, not rigidly - probably because the scapula slide back/down.


yup, exactly. you can support yourself more, so the horse can't "pull" you forward. What you are doing is stabilizing the trunk when you lift the sternum. feel how it activates muscles under your ribs and how that feels. This is sort of like in yoga when you take responsibility for your posture using your inner trunk muscles from head to hip, so the parts of the body like your arms and legs are stable and also free to be independent. At least that is how I think of it.

Just be sure the lower back stays "filled" when you do this, and you aren't arching the back. Its hard! very hard. I have to be really careful

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby khall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:14 pm

Some pics to share, while I don't roll my shoulders, I am not sitting down and back well enough in the canter, that absolutely affects the rein length and effectiveness. I do like this picture of Rip just after asking for counter flexion/bending in the canter. Shows how it helped him engage more:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

This shows Cedar riding Rip the next day and how with her sitting on him it helps him to stay more up in his position.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

and me on Rip, showing a bit of broken wrist which I think would not be an issue if I just sat on my a$$.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:21 pm

Post of the month from exvet. Just super. Very clear.

I liked the part about confronting the rearing. The horse I ride sometimes bucks if asked to canter. He has never gotten me off but it was escalating and i would come off eventually if that continued. My glasses fly far during these episodes. Part of the problem is whether it is physical or behavior. Anyway I got ugly with him at one point and that seemed to quash it along with the owner having his hocks injected. I can now do walk - canter with him again. Some days I feel he has physical issues and other days I think it is behavior. I think it is both with him. He has been bucking his owner and all other riders his whole life. Amazingly he has an excellent obedient trot and is good laterally. He has never exhibited any problem at trot. He is easy to sit and has a forward trot with natural suspension so he is very fun to fun absent the bucking!


exvet wrote:I am now riding with a shorter rein consistently. The key, I am told (and agree), is to ride with a forward thinking hand/elbow without giving up the elbow. The reality is that my arms are only so long so to not ride back to front but to have the horse encouraged to always seek the hand I must ride with my elbows with a hint of more forward than at the 'ideal' spot by my side during this early training stage. The goal is to help my horse build strength and develop more engagement and compact frame appropriate for the level without shortening the neck and eventually I should find my elbow more 'correct/ideal' in location. Another point made to me was that I have better timing to adjust to the changes and 'testing' of the contact when I ride with a shorter rein. I don't want to inadvertently reward the horse by backing off on the contact if what I want is for him to step into more contact with the hind end. If I keep lightening up or throwing away on the contact, the more likely result will be a horse that lacks coming truly through and over the back. There are of course risks involved and having a good feel for what you're trying to develop helps but since I am acutely aware of the dangers I also have an eye on the ground to make sure that my contact, which at times is stronger, isn't negatively impacting the hind legs.

I am at the edge of the envelope pushing past it with my 4 year old in order to get him to accept a heavier contact with the intent of being able to ride in a lighter contact when appropriate but with true connection and coming through. To do that and to avoid the mistakes of my past, I must get him to accept me pushing him into a heavier contact in order to recycle the energy and get him to step under. Without developing this piece it is far more difficult to engage and strengthen his hind end. As MC warned me in another thread, there is a risk of rearing with some horses pushed too far to fast. Junior did give me a solid rear the other day but I did not give in/up on the contact. His neck was not short and I wouldn't say he felt trapped but he was definitely trying to convince me to give in to his demands to ride on a lighter and longer rein. In the past I probably would have diplomatically skirted the issue, given him his way and found another way to try to get him to do as I asked. Unfortunately this issue has been developing due to challenges with the canter depart. He's been leaping into the canter dropping his wither and going way above the bit. Per my instructor and Heather Blitz they both felt if I didn't face the monster now it would only resurface later and at a time when he would be stronger and possibly not ever get past it. I decided to follow their advice and let's just say it was a momentary resistance that has since improved significantly. I do not recommend people going about this without an educated eye on the ground and if there is any fear of rearing, don't do it if the horse is threatening this.

This is likely my last dance and I honestly feel I have one built to do the job. Given the muscling that is developing, his willingness to still seek the hand and lovely stretchy circles, with proper work - developing a nicely swinging back and power to go with it all, I think we're still on the right path; so, a shorter rein we will go as long as it's not a shorter neck. Of course all of this is backed up with a balanced seat and always starting with the seat and leg sending the horse into the hand. I guess my point is that I'm not riding on a shorter rein in a vacuum. It's one piece of recycling the energy with the goal that I am able to ride with more and more true, honest contact on a neutral rein with forward energy....... until a half halt is needed to re-balance - the exercise being tackled dictates the number of half-halts and the balance and response of the horses dictates the 'degree' of contact and/or weight in the rein at any given time.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:05 am

khall, those first two photos are showing both you and Cedar riding with an extreme upward broken line. Did you notice that?

In the third one, was Rip motorcycling? It looks like you are leaning to stay with him.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby demi » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:39 am

My lesson today was almost all on the rein connection. Last week, on the same horse, I felt I had finally gotten a good rein connection and we were able to do lateral work (leg yields and a little halfpass) as well as work on lots transitions (trot-canter, canter-trot, trot-walk, trot-halt...fun stuff) And today I thought I was still doing pretty good! Not good enough, it turns out. Trainer has already told me I have long arms, and today she said that I didnt have any reason for not keeping my elbows at my hips (I thought I was!). I am NOT to give up my elbows. Steady on the outside. DON’T lose the connection on the outside. Soften on the inside. Over and over. Then, stretch the horse down (still at trot), but don’t give away my elbows or the connection to the outside rein, and at the same time, soften the inside rein. The mare stretched nicely but I lost connection on the outside rein...

Also, I needed to widen my hands. For now. That’s what she said: for now. That was hard for me. But but but the closer they are to each other, the more connected I can keep them!! NO. They have to work independently. The outside is for direction and connection, and the inside is for shaping. She worked me really hard and when I thought I was doing well, she had me stay trotting on a 15 m circle around X. Ok. I could do that. But NO! Not round enough. She proceeded to canter her horse in the opposite direction on a 20m circle contentric to my 15m :shock: (she was riding her homebred 4 yr old :o ) We did this for several circles. Her horse and riding was perfect and my steering improved!

I had to beg for mercy after 40 minutes as I had lost all coordination. Part of what was so physically hard for me was that the mare tries to pull my elbows loose. It wasn’t a continual pulling, but she did it when she felt me weakening. I had to keep all systems on alert at all times so she couldnt succeed. Seatbones even, core engaged, shoulders back, chin lifted, hands closed but relaxed, forearms relaxed, outside hand keeping connection, SOFTEN on the inside...Trainer caught me the minute I let up on anything. And that tired me way out.

So next week she said we will do the same thing on a longer rein :shock: :shock: so the horse cant pull on me as easily. I cannot imagine how that will work. But this woman knows her business so can imagine I’ll learn. I love my trainer.

Oh, and I only got told a couple of times to shorten my reins a little. Just a little! Not a foot!

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby khall » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:29 pm

Tsavo this picture? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
I have a straight line from elbow to Rip's mouth. I in no way see that I have an extreme broken line. Now yes Cedar does, she was working on changes (which Rip was not understanding)and asking for him to be more up in the canter. No Rip was not motorcycling, we had just done counter bending in the right lead and then straightened that is just my right shoulder issue, I want to drop it collapsing on the right. An ongoing issue I need to put in my loop to work on still. Plus I need to ride more hips to hand, it's hard to ride these WBs that are not the most goey of horses. I end up working too hard and lose my seat. Rip has gotten so much better and now I need to ride accordingly.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Tsavo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:47 pm



That's the third picture. I said both you and Cedar have a broken line in the first and second pictures.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby khall » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:57 pm

Actually it is just my inside rein that is raised, if you look my outside is correct. Not exactly sure what I was doing but in this canter sequence we were doing a good bit of counter flexion to HI.

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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:17 pm

So, I am going out on a limb and showing my progression. I start my horses on a shorter rein, I want them to learn to carry on all four legs, not by dragging the weight with the front. Biomechamically, that requires the horse to have its muzzle level with its hip, but since I cannot see the hip when i am riding, i try to use my knee as the go no lower point of reference.

I am completely willing to admit I lack the style and grace
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:18 pm

Once she had worked for a few minutes, I offer rein length to stretch.
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Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:42 pm

Then few years later, still riding g for balance.

I had some less zoom zoom backward hand moments, too.
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Last edited by Chisamba on Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
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Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Rein length and connection for the lower levels

Postby Chisamba » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:53 pm

Now that she is more able to be more elasticized , I ride with a longer rein. And ask her to be balanced in the longer contact to improve her quality of gaits
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