The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

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piedmontfields
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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:05 am

Mouth issues are huge, IMO. I do think dental pain is behind some of my mare's connection challenges (besides me). She had a number of years when she was turned out as "unusable" without dental care. And then a big effort was made at recovery, followed by me with incremental frequent dental care to get things completely comfy.

Remind us about MM, please? I am a big fan of BOT pads for the cold backed, tight, PSSM sorts (like mine) in winter. I just use the pad but know many who like the sheet, too.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:32 am

piedmontfields wrote:
Remind us about MM, please? I am a big fan of BOT pads for the cold backed, tight, PSSM sorts (like mine) in winter. I just use the pad but know many who like the sheet, too.


I agree about mouth issues, it can be the start of so much, so I'm thankful to have had what seems to be a good dental done.

MM is my mustang. She's 10 years old and schooling 3rd (we have green changes that need confirming before our debut). She's is a true mutt, but likely has some draft blood (big bone and she gets feathers in the winter). She's coming back to work after a 3 week vacation. In general she does well with time off, but i might need some extra help getting her limbered back up. With her the big challenge is often getting her to use her back fully. She has an active hind leg and an "on the bit" neck set, but getting her to truly come through her lower back is usually the piece that brings everything together.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:39 pm

we are doing well, seem to be back in a sort of groove adjusting to the winter. it has been more like 30 vs 20 (F) so that helps :)
wishing everyone a great holiday

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Hot4Spots » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:48 pm

khall wrote:Ponichiwa Tsavo was banned from the board because of her posts re acupuncture.



Ahhhh... So I won't be attacked if I comment that the NFR broncs are looking fat and sassy and happy. ;)


(And would you believe my horse has whacked his GOOD hindleg? Of course he has. He's a horse!) It iooks like just edema/bruising. It went down when I walked him, so I put on a standing wrap. BO says it's down more - but not all the way - today, so she re-wrapped it.) I just HATE him being so far away. and on a heavy commute route. I sure hope something opens up closer to home soon. Sigh.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:59 pm

I have a couple of people blocked on my DDBB, but i had to go to the acupuncture thread for some entertainment. I am not sure how long the moderator tends to ban people but I did wonder how long it would take people to identify the new moniker. I see it was revealed.

back to training, we have brand new lights in our indoor, and its really nice!! I am still struggling with single flying changes with my grey mare. I used to be much better at putting a single change on a horse when i was a jumper rider. lol

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby musical comedy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:14 am

Chisamba wrote:I have a couple of people blocked on my DDBB, but i had to go to the acupuncture thread for some entertainment. I am not sure how long the moderator tends to ban people but I did wonder how long it would take people to identify the new moniker. I see it was revealed.
She wasn't banned. She was given a time-out. She decided not to return (for obvious reasons). I'm glad to hear that pleases some of you.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:11 am

blob wrote:MM is my mustang...With her the big challenge is often getting her to use her back fully. She has an active hind leg and an "on the bit" neck set, but getting her to truly come through her lower back is usually the piece that brings everything together.


Thanks, Blob. Wow, that description sounds awfully familiar as a shorthand for my little mare.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby khall » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:40 am

MC I do think Tsavo is banned, not just time out. She was given a time out and still was crying foul, Chancelor said bye bye which I took to mean she is banned. I do wonder if she found a horse. I do not miss her picking fights over stupid stuff. Who cares if some use acupuncture/chiro? But she could have good input on the training threads.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby kande50 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:07 pm

khall wrote:MC I do think Tsavo is banned, not just time out. She was given a time out and still was crying foul, Chancelor said bye bye which I took to mean she is banned.


One thing we can depend on in moderated groups is that the babies will be thrown out with the bath water.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ponichiwa » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:09 pm

This isn't a huge community, so it's a bit of a bummer when anyone gets the boot (or chooses to leave). Drat. Was looking forward to her finding the perfect horse.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Kelo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:32 pm

Jumping into this thread and changing the subject a little, but.....look what my kill-pen baby pony is doing :D

She's filling out but NOT GROWING UPWARD AT ALL :? :lol: and settling in. Has a few dozen rides, super basic stuff, plus playing around with cows. She is doing wonderfully, is actually much cuter than I expected, and has SO MUCH cow in her.

I am very pleased!
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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby musical comedy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:56 pm

blob wrote:MM is my mustang...With her the big challenge is often getting her to use her back fully. She has an active hind leg and an "on the bit" neck set, but getting her to truly come through her lower back is usually the piece that brings everything together.

piedmontfields wrote:Thanks, Blob. Wow, that description sounds awfully familiar as a shorthand for my little mare.

I'm in a similar situation. I don't know how to fix it though, and I think it may not be fixable. Trainer is gone now and I have no help. As much as I like my trainer, he wasn't addressing what I think needs to be addressed. Even though I'm just a lowly AA, I have in the past been right about things that trainers didn't agree with.

I never thought I would say this, but I think one of those balance-before-movement trainers would be helpful to me. There are none in my area though. I happened to think that not all issues are solved from behind. Right now, I'd like to have a more supple poll/jaw even at the expense of losing hind end energy.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:43 pm

musical comedy wrote:
I never thought I would say this, but I think one of those balance-before-movement trainers would be helpful to me. There are none in my area though. I happened to think that not all issues are solved from behind. Right now, I'd like to have a more supple poll/jaw even at the expense of losing hind end energy.


yeah I had to learn this. You have to create a place for all that energy to go in the front. Course as you all know I don't really do french school work, more biomechanics of why/how the horse engages.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:30 pm

musical comedy wrote:I'm in a similar situation. I don't know how to fix it though, and I think it may not be fixable. Trainer is gone now and I have no help. As much as I like my trainer, he wasn't addressing what I think needs to be addressed. Even though I'm just a lowly AA, I have in the past been right about things that trainers didn't agree with.

I never thought I would say this, but I think one of those balance-before-movement trainers would be helpful to me. There are none in my area though. I happened to think that not all issues are solved from behind. Right now, I'd like to have a more supple poll/jaw even at the expense of losing hind end energy.


One of the challenges for us is that is that often when I put leg on to get more from behind, i get more action in the hind leg without it actually come through and under more. There are days when I can turn up and down into under and through and days when I just can't. When it's just the up and down activity, I too end up with a stiff horse. Sometimes doing more collected work helps, sometimes doing a lot of forward and back helps, sometimes poles/jumping help, and also sometimes none of those things help. When I get her working in a good place, I can usually maintain it for some time, but once I lose it, it's really hard for me to get her back. It's like I don't actually know the right method, it often just feels like luck.

My instructor often reminds me that I need to remember to ride her shoulder better and not get so stuck on the back to front back to front back to front that forget about the front. But I'm still working out what exactly and how exactly to get her should where I need it, out of the way, while getting her back to swing through.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby musical comedy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:50 pm

blob wrote:One of the challenges for us is that is that often when I put leg on to get more from behind, i get more action in the hind leg without it actually come through and under more. There are days when I can turn up and down into under and through and days when I just can't. When it's just the up and down activity, I too end up with a stiff horse. Sometimes doing more collected work helps, sometimes doing a lot of forward and back helps, sometimes poles/jumping help, and also sometimes none of those things help. When I get her working in a good place, I can usually maintain it for some time, but once I lose it, it's really hard for me to get her back. It's like I don't actually know the right method, it often just feels like luck.

My instructor often reminds me that I need to remember to ride her shoulder better and not get so stuck on the back to front back to front back to front that forget about the front. But I'm still working out what exactly and how exactly to get her should where I need it, out of the way, while getting her back to swing through.
Being that I have not seen video since early 2018, I don't know what I'm getting. It wouldn't surprise me if I also get the up and down activity. However, if I am in warmup on long reins stretching round down and deep, then I feel I am getting the reach from behind. When I start with the sitting trot and asking her to come up, then I get the more up/down type feeling. I don't know about your horse, but mine has zero natural suspension and she's not a big horse either. It's very hard for me to get used to this feeling. I don't think I ever will. I am used to
"up------down" and now I get "up-down". That said, the horse is not rushing. It's just the way she moves. My horse also has a short back. Does yours? And also a very thick heavy muscled neck which is quite strong.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:16 pm

not really addressed to me.....but hopefully I can add some helpful ideas.
yeah, it feels slower at first with a shortened step. it feels less active, but in my case, my horse had to pick. one.foot. up . at . a time. and that pause develops into collection. Its a smaller foot step. my horse stays with his legs more up and down and is less of an extended walk- the leg doesn't swing forward. make sense? If it was too big I lost the ability to lift the sternum.
No matter how much I added leg, things feel apart and was just rushing when I didn't manage the shoulder. This is a variation of a half halt idea. I "suction my back down" and though I don't use leg, I don't let the horse back off either.

My horse has a very short back.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:27 pm

@MC, getting video can be so helpful! But it is always a challenge for me too to have someone around to film us.

My mare does not have a lot of natural suspension, but I can create some. It's easier for us to passage than to extend. She rides very much like a shorter backed horse, but oddly does not have an especially short back...

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby demi » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:03 pm

I’m not complaining ;) but I sure wish we could see a pic of your new mare, MC! I know I’ll like her. I appreciated your training posts, but they would be easier to visual if I knew what she looked like. Just sayin....

I’m anxioust to get back into real work with Rocky. She’s ready to increase her work, but I’ve been in Michigan all week and the week before we had 4 days of rain, then two days of cold. I’ll get home tomorrow and the weather looks great for next week. I should be ready to video by the end of next week or early the week after. I love the videos for training purposes and I’ve only just started to use them since at the same time i got the robot camera, Rocky got hurt.

I am excited about doing some little shows, and then one of my trail buddies just told me she plans on doing some, also. That will make it really fun, and I think it will nice for Rocky to have her friend at the show. Maybe I’m just imagining that because it will be so nice for me to have my friend at the show! Our mares get along really well. They aren’t stable mates, and they don’t show any tendencies of being overly attached.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Flight » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:30 pm

musical comedy wrote:I never thought I would say this, but I think one of those balance-before-movement trainers would be helpful to me. There are none in my area though. I happened to think that not all issues are solved from behind. Right now, I'd like to have a more supple poll/jaw even at the expense of losing hind end energy.


Never thought I'd see you say that either :) Have to say, it made a big difference to me and how I ride my horses.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Chisamba » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:50 pm

Blob, what do you mean by "lower back" ?

MC. I believe in slow and balance, when appropriate, but I am not really " french"

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:34 am

Lots of good thoughts and questions happening here. I am not Blob, but for me and my mare, the flexibility and overall even feeling in the SI and hips is a trouble spot for us (it's what I always have adjusted when the chiro visits..my mare tends to alternate which hip is high). I would say her SI connection is simply weaker conformation than ideal. It's very common in Iberian horses I've seen.

What I've been doing a lot in warm-up lately is probably a little towards the balance before movement approach (but I do it in walk, and walk-halt-walk and walk-trot-walk transitions). After 10-15 minutes of long rein walking, I'm basically being incredibly picky about lining my mare up and stacking her up underneath me. I do not pick at about the quality of gait or impulsion, but I nitpick about straightness and soft, even acceptance of the bit. I am (slowly) learning that this is actually the quicker way to powering her up off her hind. It looks like I'm jogging slowly. It is different from "slow trot" or "school trot" work, which is more powerful and cadenced. We do that kind of work well after the warm-up.

The value of this approach becomes especially vivid to me in the cold months when she needs a very deliberate and patient warm up before real work begins.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby musical comedy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:45 am

Chisamba wrote:MC. I believe in slow and balance, when appropriate, but I am not really " french"
I know. Certainly it's not only the French that do what it is I want. Darn, it's hard to put feelings and thoughts into words that won't get misconstrued. I think I'm advocating for flexions, be they in hand or under saddle, and even Baucher flexions. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much great power the horse is generating from behind, if he is locked up somewhere, that energy cannot come 'through'. They can be locked up in various places and that is what suppling exercises are meant to remedy. I apparently haven't found the correct suppling exercises. If you have a horse that is locked in the poll or jaw, and if you send energy forward from behind, what kind of feel are you going to get in your hands? It won't feel good. It isn't going to be fixed with a half halt either. This is my thinking, as poorly as I am at trying to explain it.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:52 am

MC, that seems pretty clear, especially this:

"What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much great power the horse is generating from behind, if he is locked up somewhere, that energy cannot come 'through'. "

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby musical comedy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:01 am

piedmontfields wrote:Lots of good thoughts and questions happening here. I am not Blob, but for me and my mare, the flexibility and overall even feeling in the SI and hips is a trouble spot for us (it's what I always have adjusted when the chiro visits..my mare tends to alternate which hip is high). I would say her SI connection is simply weaker conformation than ideal. It's very common in Iberian horses I've seen.
I don't think that is my issue. Actually, my connection in SI is much better than in SF or circles. Even so, I think you and the others are considerably farther along in training than I am with my horse. So probably, I am happy with something you may not be.

What I've been doing a lot in warm-up lately is probably a little towards the balance before movement approach (but I do it in walk, and walk-halt-walk and walk-trot-walk transitions). After 10-15 minutes of long rein walking, I'm basically being incredibly picky about lining my mare up and stacking her up underneath me. I do not pick at about the quality of gait or impulsion, but I nitpick about straightness and soft, even acceptance of the bit. I am (slowly) learning that this is actually the quicker way to powering her up off her hind. It looks like I'm jogging slowly. It is different from "slow trot" or "school trot" work, which is more powerful and cadenced. We do that kind of work well after the warm-up.
.
I think that's along the lines of what I'm looking fore. I'd like to have that soft connection (jaw/poll) in the walk from the get go. On long reins, it feels ok. The minute the reins are shorten to prepare for more, either at walk or trot, the softness is gone. Perhaps I am also wanting something that is not truly correct. I mean, I have had too many horses that 'posed' and flexed but were behind the bit.

A long time ago on UDBB, I recall one of the in-house experts saying that the horse should be on the aids at the mounting block. I mean, the reins gathered and the horse flexed and chewing. Only in my dreams could that happened. Never happened on any horse I've owned.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby khall » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:20 am

It sounds like what you are looking for MC is exactly why I like the approach of those who schooled with NO. Very very deliberate and slow introduction to the bit and bridle first in hand then US. Mark always first showed the horse how to reach out and down with the neck in hand, then he taught them to release to the inside rein and shift the shoulders over (yes lateral work is started early) leading to a variant of SI on the circle or more of a yielding away from the handler releasing to the inside rein but not connecting yet to the outside rein. Soon (depending on how remedial the horse is) you ask for release to the inside rein and connect to the outside rein again on a large circle in more true SI. Once they understand this movement then you can introduce the counter SI movement. SI mobilizes the hips on the circle counter SI mobilizes the shoulders on the circle. We use these movements for suppling and engaging the horse and to teach them about softening to the inside and taking up the outside rein.

When working with a horse that has tightness in the TMJ and/or poll we first ask the horse to extend the neck out and down. With a tight poll we will stand in front of the horse carefully and ask for slight rotation at the occiput/C1 laterally L and R aka stelling. For tight TMJ we will again stand in front of the horse and with the rings of the bit ask for release of the jaw by drawing one side of the bit forward and one side of the bit back. If the horse still is holding the mouth you can insert a pinky in the corner of the mouth like you would asking them to take the bit. Eventually you will be able to ask for the release of the jaw to the inside while in movement. I would just ask with a slight rotation of the inside ring of the bit or slight upward action depending. For the horse who wants to get too busy with the bit we again stand in front, grasping both rings of the bit but lightly with slight connection following the horse if they fuss and as soon as they get quiet for just a second, release. Rinse and repeat to re-school the horse about the bit or to teach about the bit initially. (will probably have to do some of this with Joplin)

Teaching them the lateral work in hand also teaches them the action of the rein and inside flexion. I also teach them about the outside rein and moving the shoulders with the action of the outside rein. Starting with just a step to the inside via the outside rein. My filly who has had all of one ride on her already has SI, counter SI, HI at the draw and moving her shoulders both away (yielding) and in from the outside rein. She has not yet learned to be able to change flexion and change bend in the lateral work, though we do change flexion and bend on shallow serpentines in hand.

The work I learned from Mark and now from Cedar just makes sense to me for developing a horse in a deliberate way. Always with the balance of the horse first and foremost in our mind. So some horses who are weaker we would not extend the neck out and down as far as the stronger backed horses. and once the horse has strength and suppleness we don't spend as much time in an extended frame but more in elevation but always with the idea they can extend at any time. This is also horse dependent, those with lower set necks with more inclination to be down in the chest will spend more time in elevation than extension while those with the higher necks and tendency for dropping their back will spend more time in extension.

This is just the basis for the work I've learned over the last 10+ yrs.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:45 pm

MC, sorry for confusing lingo. SI in my post = sacroiliac in this case, not shoulder in! I tend to agree that the horse should be available to the aids from the mounting block. Do I always have this? NO. But it does seem possible and I've had some success.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Chisamba » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:35 pm

I have spent far too many happy hours with horses "unaided" to buy the "on the aids ar ther mounting block" any more. I bought in once but I'm over it. Horses are individuals. Anxious individuals may to better with a casual start . I have seen a rider insist the horse be in the aids when all the horse wanted was one or two trips around the arena in giraffe mode before being ready to participate in shall we say "work".

I do not have a problem with allowing the horse to have its preference. It usually enhances the partnership to do so.

Some horses may like a stroll on a long rein, some in hand work, while others may find being on the aids from the start very secure and satisfying. Respecting the temperament of the horse and being willing to experiment is fundamental to open minded progress.

Just last night I helped one of my pupils . Her horse keor switching leads on the circle. After we successfully catered a couple of circles with no flying changes, i asked her what she could have done if I was not there. She told me she should have experimented with a few principles of training til she was successful. I was thrilled with her answer because I think it's always the correct answer. Try various ethical principles until you are successful, then analyze what worked and why.

Very few riders have the opportunity to be coached constantly, so solving problems in absence of guidance is an important skill. Repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result is unsuccessful but surprisingly common.

Anyway, MC, I am trying to encourage you to try different techniques is absence of your coach toward successful progress, as opposed to repeating unsuccessful attempts.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby exvet » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:51 pm

Has any one ever driven? It's not uncommon for the advanced (well-trained) driving horse to be hitched and in the riggings standing 'on the aids' softly chewing and ready to go forwards, backwards, sideways at the moment it's asked. Of course some that are more tense and less settled chomp their bits but when I was gatoring I 'wanted' to hear the horse or the team 'chewing' and in frame ready to go (especially in marathons). I asked because I ground drove and long lined Junior probably more than my other cobs before riding. He actually does seem 'on the aids' when standing to be mounted. I do have some of the same issues being described with the shorter back (his is very short), at times more up-down than forward and underneath from the back end yet very, very strong hind end that accepts weight, will sit, exceptional SI/loin and still gets stuck. Like almost all of my welsh cobs it's through the back and definitely at the base of their neck where they get stuck (and perhaps between the ears). I can get lovely stretchy walks, lovely stretchy circles which are even now starting to develop at the canter in addition to the trot. Our balance is much, much better.

My conundrum is I can get what I like and feel is better when I ride with just my seat and I can do that well; but, it's still not true connection cycling all the way through ....to the bit...though we are getting better moments. I have had to go back to working in hand many times to get the light bulb to go off and then try to reproduce it under saddle - tedious in some ways but helping. It's the driving piece for me that I have to keep going back to in my head because in driving, you have to have soft but ever present and very well controlled, fine tuned hands right down to each and every finger. So, in my in hand work I use more finger control and pay attention to the weight in my hand and the response in the horse. If I get and keep that softened jaw 'the educated mouth as Paula always refers to' and maintain the softness all the way through the base of the neck and the movement that I want.........well I'm learning to remember the feel I created/got in my hand and try to develop that under saddle. I have to simply rely on my 'seat' keeping the back end where it's always supposed to be (not think so much on that piece) and ride the shoulders (base of neck) with more finesse. When I do that, I more often than not hear my instructor say, "Look in the mirror, THAT is what you want! Does it feel as good as it looks?" She's figured out that I'm a kinesthetic learner. I hope that makes sense. I too post with trepidation because it's so difficult to accurately describe what one feels.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:19 pm

Chisamba wrote:Blob, what do you mean by "lower back" ?


I meant the lumbar region--that's usually where I feel MM's disconnect. She's soft in the front, active behind, but sometimes it feels like it's two different horses because there is no bridge connecting the front and back. I don't think it's visually that noticeable, but when I can't engage her back it makes it hard to ride and it doesn't feel great. When I have that bridge connected it feels like we can do anything and everything.

It's hard because when I lose it, I just can't consistently get it back.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby exvet » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:00 pm

My mustang has a lot of natural suspension but he's not strong enough behind to be able to lift himself in front enough to get any kind of shoulder reach. He's short backed though not extreme. He is also easier in some ways to connect and recycle the energy; but, it's very difficult to convince him that carrying more weight on the hind end is a useful expenditure of energy. He was able to escape many a predator (other than human once his herd was starving) using his body his way and on his terms.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:58 pm

exvet wrote:My mustang has a lot of natural suspension but he's not strong enough behind to be able to lift himself in front enough to get any kind of shoulder reach. He's short backed though not extreme. He is also easier in some ways to connect and recycle the energy; but, it's very difficult to convince him that carrying more weight on the hind end is a useful expenditure of energy. He was able to escape many a predator (other than human once his herd was starving) using his body his way and on his terms.


We can relate to a lot of this. MM is so naturally balanced that sometimes teaching new things are hard. She also learned for good reason that conserving energy is smart. So, she's not a traditionally lazy horse, but she is very practical about when and why she works hard. She's a horse that truly needs a sense of purpose.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Chisamba » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:21 am

Oooh, human lower back. I was confused cause horses backs are relatively level unless they are sway backed.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Imperini » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:58 pm

Lots of interesting discussion here. Paloma can be stiff and resistant but once she gets moving nicely forward she tends to become quite soft and easily connected. It's the getting her moving part that is difficult.

When we last checked in I was feeling pretty discouraged. Every ride was an argument and even when we ended a ride okay I didn't feel good about the ride because it was such a battle to get there. I'm happy to say that things have turned around for us and I'm feeling encouraged now.

I've made quite a few changes so I'm not really sure if it's any one thing that has made the difference or the combination of everything. She's been back on magnesium as well as starting vitamin E. No pasture to be had here so I figured that was something that she should probably have supplemented as well. I've also added an afternoon feeding of hay to her routine. Unfortunately it's not a feeding time offered by the barn so it means I'm going out twice a day during the week on days that I ride.. good thing I'm close.

The final change has been my attitude. When it became clear that I wasn't enjoying myself anymore and Paloma was also expressing herself in ways that indicated she wasn't happy I decided that stepping back and making sure were were both enjoying ourselves was more important than any specific training/dressage/showing goals. I don't want my horse to be a tool to further my dressage goals I want her to be my willing dance partner. As cheesy as that may sound I need to remember it. I'm disappointed in myself that it was even something I needed to be reminded of.

Somehow, and truthfully to me it seems almost miraculous she's gone from balking and/or pretzel-ing every which way except straight and forward whenever I put my leg on to springing forward willingly at the lightest touch of the leg. She still requires a slow warmup and she's most definitely not on the aids at the mounting block but I am enjoying my rides once again and it seems pretty clear she's happier too. Perhaps with time I can figure out how to increase the difficulty of our work without fouling it with my "need to get somewhere."

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby khall » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:38 am

Ouch! Sporting a lovely bruise (partial hoof print) on my hip. Was working Rip in hand and he spooked bucked and kicked out. Caught me pretty good with his toe, not full hoof thankfully. Ibuprofen for the foreseeable future. Pretty sore in that hip joint. Not surprising, he is known to fling feet around both front or rear (why he likes SW so much). Last time he kicked me he caught me a glancing blow on my thigh kicking at flies (those nasty biting black flies that congregate on their midline).

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Moutaineer » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:56 am

Darn, Khall, that hurts, I know! I hope he was suitably penitent.

I'm in the ibupofen club, too. No idea why. I had a good ride, nothing revolutionary, got off, walked up the barn aisle and blammo, I can barely move my right leg through the hip. I suspect a trapped nerve and it'll wear off overnight (I sure as heck hope so, anyway!)

I have, however, had 3 good rides over 3 days, focusing on forward and through. I realized on Friday that I'd been fiddling around being careful not to break him because he'd been lame, and getting him thoroughly behind the leg and making us both miserable. So we stopped doing that. Both of us are happier.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby kande50 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:11 am

khall wrote:Ouch! Sporting a lovely bruise (partial hoof print) on my hip. Was working Rip in hand and he spooked bucked and kicked out. Caught me pretty good with his toe, not full hoof thankfully. Ibuprofen for the foreseeable future. Pretty sore in that hip joint. Not surprising, he is known to fling feet around both front or rear (why he likes SW so much). Last time he kicked me he caught me a glancing blow on my thigh kicking at flies (those nasty biting black flies that congregate on their midline).


I almost got it in the head one time when we were out trail riding and my mule kept kicking at his belly. I got off to see if I could see what he was kicking at (deer flies) and he kicked just as I bent over to look and sent the stirrup flying. It was just pure luck that both the stirrup and his hoof missed my head. And to make it even worse, I didn't even have my helmet on because I was wearing a hat when I saddled him and didn't realize that it was a hat on my head not a helmet.

Had the same thing you just experienced with Rip happen, too. Sting spooked, ripped the halter out of my hands and kicked out. Fortunately, my arm was still extended and I was close enough to him that his hind leg hit my arm, which hit me in the face and pushed me more than punched me. That could have been much worse, because I too, got away with bruises.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby kande50 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:23 am

musical comedy wrote:I'm in a similar situation. I don't know how to fix it though, and I think it may not be fixable. Trainer is gone now and I have no help. As much as I like my trainer, he wasn't addressing what I think needs to be addressed. Even though I'm just a lowly AA, I have in the past been right about things that trainers didn't agree with.


The way I look at it is that if mistakes are made I'm the one who is going to have to live with them for the rest of my horse's life, so if I don't want to do what a trainer wants me to do and that trainer isn't flexible enough to humor me, then I'm going to find a different trainer.

I never thought I would say this, but I think one of those balance-before-movement trainers would be helpful to me. There are none in my area though. I happened to think that not all issues are solved from behind. Right now, I'd like to have a more supple poll/jaw even at the expense of losing hind end energy.


I don't think we can have both energy and flexibility at the same time, so need to get the one we want the most first and then develop the other. At one time I wanted the forward energy first and would have been frustrated with what I'm doing now, but after experiencing some of the advantages and disadvantages of both approaches I've learned to better appreciate the idea of moderation in all things. :-)

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Dresseur » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:34 pm

Lots of good updates here! Miro is still on stall rest - but much improvement. I'm hoping that this is resolved soon, I really don't want to miss the upcoming show season. For the first time ever, I'm excited to show :(

MC, that's a tough one. Don't give up, keep trying things. In terms of all issues being solved from behind - Andrea has told me several times that power is a privilege (for horses). You can't keep pushing forward and putting more power in if the horse is leaning or locking up on you. In those cases, slightly underpowered, using the lateral work for the utmost bend, and doing tons and tons and TONS of transitions. Even just trot/walk transitions in slight shoulder fore can help with locking and hovering. I've also been taught to use in hand work, and to use longing as a remedy, but that is not for everyone. Your comment about shortening the reins and having the softness go is a bit of a clue too - there are two that I'm riding that do that - what seems to be working is asking for a stretching (polite stretching - and not all the way down) over and over so that the horse starts to seek the rein rather than suck the neck back and hide from it. Again, you may be dealing with a very different set of circumstances - just relaying my experiences in case you want to mull over it.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:51 pm

I had to solve problems in front first, then the hind could come under, but my horse is very forward naturally. I think since he was prone to scrunching the neck and going BTV while rushing I had to zero in on the sternum and keeping a telescoping long neck.

I agree with the "power is a privilege"- For me, I had to take away speed and do a lot at the walk first. Just as Dresseur said I also do flexions and it's been really neat to learn to observe the reactions from the ground. Just last night I did a session of flexions to see where and why my horse was holding tension. It wasn't what I thought it was from the saddle.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Sue B » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:35 pm

Tio was almost non-weight bearing on his left front last week despite carving away on his foot...then a new spot broke out on his coronet band after I soaked it (in a 30 mph wind, 20F). :evil: My dh carved on it again Saturday so now he's back to limping but at least willing to stand on it. Don't know why he decided to pop all these foot abcesses all of a sudden but I'm sure it has something to do with this icy weather. At least it's only one foot and Tio has been extremely cooperative throughout this whole ordeal. We even used a dremel with the foot propped up on a mounting block.

I hopped on Rudy Sunday when the temps finally squeaked above freezing and the wind laid back to 10mph. I find I have to lunge before riding though because this year he has decided to buck with his quarter sheet! So no quarter sheet, lunge to warm big muscles up and off we go. Half my arena is under snow drifts so i did some arena work and some road work--all i do is focus on getting a very nice 1st lvl frame, soft and forward and a nice steady feel in the reins. No "fancy" stuff.

Question...How is it that 3" of snow can pile up into almost 3 foot snow drifts anyways?????

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:33 pm

Finally had two dry days in a row so I could ride in the outdoor arena, wooohoo! I am super grateful for the covered arena, but it's hard to get a lot done in there--it's smaller than the outdoor arena and full of jumps. So it can be hard to practice a lot of exercises and when you have many riders in the ring, it can get extra complicated.

MM is starting to get out of vacation-mode and back to work-mode. It's been interesting reading so many other people talk about their experiences with similar horses. Although she has a very active hind leg, MM definitely falls in the energy efficient category. So, getting her going nicely is usually involves getting her forward, but sometimes her energy gets trapped and just can't come through the back--that's when the ride gets complicated. Unfortunately I've been without lessons for over a month (my travel) and it'll be a bit longer before I can get one (holidays are making it harder to schedule). But I had a nice ride today and usually (knock on wood) once we're over a hump we can string together a few good rides in a row.

I'm struggling right now to get my timing right for the changes. It's not ideal that that she's green on her changes and I'm fumbling the timing, but she really is a forgiving horse when it comes to things like this. It's so frustrating for me because I FEEL the timing, I just can't get my body to actually aid when I want it to. There's a serious delay. I probably need to figure out how long my delay is and aim to time things for the 1 or even 2 beats before the correct timing so that I can actually be correct. Having a pole was nice in the beginning because it helped me with my timing just as much as it helped her pick up her feet. But now that we're off the pole and she's not longer anticipating and leaping around trying to change, it really is on me to time my aids and ask correctly...which is proving to be hard...If anyone has exercises or thoughts, I welcome them!

RP has had about a week since his dental work was done and I've gone back to riding him. I'm lunging him before every ride for now just to be safe. His mouth feels MUCH better. He's still uneducated in the mouth, but now it's normal green horse stuff. We've had a couple tense moments at mounting--it's not the getting on, it's that first step forward into the walk, but none have resulted in explosions. So perhaps it is now only lingering fear that will soon fade--or at least that's what I hope is going on. Now that his mouth feels better, he's decided he really just wants to kind of hang in the reins and put his nose down as low as he can get it. But now that he feels like he's in a place to get into proper work, I can start asking him to use his body a bit more. I don't anticipate him being a heavy horse once he figures things out, but he's still got a lot to learn and a lot of strength to build. He's finally put on some lbs, and now it's time to start building his muscle and topline as well.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pm

Blob-- are you a musician by any chance? I've found asking on the "up beat" of the canter helps clarify the timing issue. By the time you get to the downbeat (ONE-two-three of the canter), it's too late to aid. Counting out loud, even if it makes you feel a bit silly, can help solidify the timing.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:44 pm

I'm buckling down with some extra lessons as its nice for us, that is "realtively" nice for all of you no winter people, and things overall are going really well.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:37 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:Blob-- are you a musician by any chance? I've found asking on the "up beat" of the canter helps clarify the timing issue. By the time you get to the downbeat (ONE-two-three of the canter), it's too late to aid. Counting out loud, even if it makes you feel a bit silly, can help solidify the timing.


Sadly not a musician, but I did some dance back in the day, so music counts make sense to me. I think the challenge for me is that I feel the upbeat clearly but by the time my body does anything I've missed the right window. So, I think I need to actually time for the downbeat, so by the time I actually react it's on the upbeat? But maybe that's a recipe for a mess down the line...

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:38 pm

The answer is to anticipate the upbeat! That's why counting (out loud) several strides before you think about asking for a change is really helpful.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby Flight » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:58 pm

How do you prepare for the change? I had a lesson with a guy from Portugal and no one else had told me that the stride before you change, you put your legs in position to ask for the change, and then leg aid for the change in the next stride. So, I think I now put my leg back in the 'down' phase of the canter, then ask for the change in the up phase. It really helped with my timing. Before that I was just trying to ask for the change in that one time, but neither me or my horse was ready.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby blob » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:17 pm

Flight wrote:How do you prepare for the change? I had a lesson with a guy from Portugal and no one else had told me that the stride before you change, you put your legs in position to ask for the change, and then leg aid for the change in the next stride. So, I think I now put my leg back in the 'down' phase of the canter, then ask for the change in the up phase. It really helped with my timing. Before that I was just trying to ask for the change in that one time, but neither me or my horse was ready.


This is helpful to think about. In the past I've always done what you do, back in the down, ask in the up. BUT I think I am scrambling to catch up right now and not actually getting my leg where it should be. So, I think bringing my leg back the stride before might help me. There is just such a lag time right now between what I want to do and what my body is doing.

I think I"m also making the mistake of just getting aimless with a single change. Like I have the whole diagonal or longside to get that change, instead of riding to a certain point or even thinking "on stride 5" or whatever stride i decided. I probably just need a lot more structure.

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:56 am

Secrets of changes. This makes so much sense. You all are awesome!

I'm just back from a bit clinic that resulted in a very different sort bit choice for my mare. We were in a single jointed Novocontact loose ring, which was better than the 6 bits I tried before that but clearly not perfect.

The bit she liked best was this one:
https://www.bombers.co.za/bits-by-colou ... ongue.html

Room for her big tongue and very quiet in the mouth while still giving her some feedback when she mouths with the loose rings. She actually felt like a normal horse in the hand (instead of way too light). Kind of amazing. It will take some time for the bit to be delivered, but I am looking forward to it.

p.s. Although this felt like an Avon event, I had audited one before and saw the benefit. And Emi did not choose the most expensive bit by a long-shot! (thank you, mare)

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby khall » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:20 am

piedmont do you know if that bit is legal to show in? Bit clinic sounds interesting, I've never attended one.

I have some exciting news. I will be hosting Jillian Kreinbring in May 2019 for a biomechanics lecture and 2 lesson days in Georgia. Her lectures have so much information to them. Looking forward to it:)

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Re: The last sextal (bi month) of 2018. November, December goals and training orogress

Postby exvet » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:01 pm

Piedmontfields - let us know how you like the bit in a couple of months. I am intrigued with it. The concept would likely work well on Junior. Initial response is important but I find after time not all honeymoons last; so, I will be following!

Yesterday I rode at the neighbor's training facility. He had a couple of young reining horses out doing 'their thing' and one in the bull pen being worked. I starting riding and his assistant in the bull pen hollered out to warn me that the horse she was going to work tends to be rowdy and her dog would be running the outside of the bull pen while she worked the horse. She wanted to warn me that most horse's being ridden don't react well while this occurs and didn't want me to get hurt. I laughed and thanked her for the warning and told her that it would be a character building experience for Junior. Let's just say he handled it very well. Not only was that going on but the guy who's place it is, was doing sliding stops right into us as was one of his students who was on another young horse. We had horses blowing up sand coming at us from multiple directions and a dog that was whipping up under our tail each time it came around but Junior didn't bat an eye. I am hoping that this experience is giving him the confidence to handle himself well in a crowded warm-up at the shows.

Today we will have our last lesson of the year. I am anxious to see/hear what my instructor thinks about our progress at the canter. There is still room for improvement but I think it's improved by leaps and bounds just in the last two weeks (figuratively and literally LOL). The strength and the stamina has definitely improved to the point where I think I can regulate the stride with just my seat and outside rein. I'm hoping the tempo will be where it's supposed to be. We at least do not have any more running into the gait nor scrambling with either the upward or downward transition (which was never too bad to begin with). I also feel like there is the ability to ride a true 20 meter circle in both directions without motorcycling around and me not having to muscle it to get it done - yeah!


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