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I got overly ambitious about trying to bend him in canter and messed it all up, but he gave me this really cute strike off, anyway.

Took me awhile to figure out why it seemed like he'd regressed, and of course, my first thought was that he was sore/lame/sick, but after sleeping on it I realized that it was probably the usual (too much, too soon). And of course, as soon as I regressed to where we actually were, he didn't have any more trouble sustaining the canter. :-/

https://youtu.be/y5NtcGRIusM

kande50 wrote:I got overly ambitious about trying to bend him in canter and messed it all up, but he gave me this really cute strike off, anyway.

Took me awhile to figure out why it seemed like he'd regressed, and of course, my first thought was that he was sore/lame/sick, but after sleeping on it I realized that it was probably the usual (too much, too soon). And of course, as soon as I regressed to where we actually were, he didn't have any more trouble sustaining the canter. :-/

https://youtu.be/y5NtcGRIusM

I'd say this is not ambitious enough. He looks sleepy. ....if you can't connect him back to front better to start with trot to canter.

Do you canter outside of your indoor? It seems to me that he could use more space to go forward and maintain canter. I actually liked the strike-off and first couple strides, but then he went flat and fell out. Needs more forward and connection to maintain quality.

I agree with Straightforward, you need more space. That ring looks REALLY small. He needs to go out and canter FORWARD. And don't try walk/canter transitions yet - get him forward in the trot, well balanced, accepting contact, bending in the trot - maybe (in a bigger space) do some 3 loop serpentines and 20 meter circle figure 8s, so he's already on bending lines with forward movement, then ask him to canter. Start with just a half circle or full circle at the most, then ask for a balanced transition to the trot.

If you want to transition to some straight lines, start with LY from the trot, then after you get to the track, ask for the canter fairly close to the corner of the ring - a few steps of straight away, then through the two corners (kind of like a 20 meter half circle). If you feel his trot start to get flat, either transition back to the trot, or IF HE"S READY FOR IT, ask for a few steps of LY in the canter - that usually lifts them back up. Don't spend a lot of time in canter until he's physically strong enough to maintain a quality canter.

StraightForward wrote:Do you canter outside of your indoor? It seems to me that he could use more space to go forward and maintain canter. I actually liked the strike-off and first couple strides, but then he went flat and fell out. Needs more forward and connection to maintain quality.

I do canter outside, and of course, it's a lot easier because there's a lot more room, although he's been cantering inside for years and doesn't have a lot of trouble with it as long as I'm sensible about facilitating it instead of ruining it.

I liked his first few strides too, and if I'd left him alone instead of trying to bend him to the inside more he would have been able to maintain that canter.

I'm working on my tendency to always be pushing for more, because more is only good if the horse has been well enough prepared so that he's ready for more. I'm usually pretty good about facilitating instead of pushing, but I was having an overly ambitious day. Lesson learned, again.

kande50 wrote:

StraightForward wrote:Do you canter outside of your indoor? It seems to me that he could use more space to go forward and maintain canter. I actually liked the strike-off and first couple strides, but then he went flat and fell out. Needs more forward and connection to maintain quality.

I do canter outside, and of course, it's a lot easier because there's a lot more room, although he's been cantering inside for years and doesn't have a lot of trouble with it as long as I'm sensible about facilitating it instead of ruining it.

I liked his first few strides too, and if I'd left him alone instead of trying to bend him to the inside more he would have been able to maintain that canter.

I'm working on my tendency to always be pushing for more, because more is only good if the horse has been well enough prepared so that he's ready for more. I'm usually pretty good about facilitating instead of pushing, but I was having an overly ambitious day. Lesson learned, again.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you actively riding him here. I see this as a very lazy ride. Am I missing something?

Correct bend requires more energy than the horse's natural crookedness, so if you're going to ask for more bend I recommend also asking for a bit more power. Otherwise, the horse slows down or gets flatter as the work gets harder.

Ryeissa wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you actively riding him here. I see this as a very lazy ride. Am I missing something?

Are you saying that my aids are invisible?

I'd like to think they are, but if the video was better quality, or you were there in real life, you'd be able to see them clearly enough. In fact, you can see when I push him to stay in canter because he flips his tail. The harder I push, the bigger the tail flip. Trouble is, all the pushing in the world isn't going to keep him in canter if I'm blocking him from cantering.

Obviously, the ring's so small it would be nuts to try to get him going faster so that I could put him against the bit and then try to develop an elastic contact from that, so my plan all along has been to go the balance to movement route rather than the balance from movement one.

kande50 wrote:I'd like to think they are, but if the video was better quality, or you were there in real life, you'd be able to see them clearly enough. In fact, you can see when I push him to stay in canter because he flips his tail. The harder I push, the bigger the tail flip. Trouble is, all the pushing in the world isn't going to keep him in canter if I'm blocking him from cantering.

Obviously, the ring's so small it would be nuts to try to get him going faster so that I could put him against the bit and then try to develop an elastic contact from that, so my plan all along has been to go the balance to movement route rather than the balance from movement one.

I think you were just late to recognize the canter was fading. Refresh the canter sooner (and no, that does not necessarily mean going faster), and you won't even see the canter get flatter.

Ponichiwa wrote:Correct bend requires more energy than the horse's natural crookedness, so if you're going to ask for more bend I recommend also asking for a bit more power. Otherwise, the horse slows down or gets flatter as the work gets harder.

Yes, I agree that more power/thrust would be a very good thing, and I've been thinking about that a lot more since I decided to quit worrying about getting him straighter.

Something else that's happened recently is that he now feels stiffer to the right, which has always been the side that felt good to me. But I'm not going to get sucked into that right now, because my focus is on getting a better "go" response first.

kande50 wrote:Are you saying that my aids are invisible?

I'd like to think they are, but if the video was better quality, or you were there in real life, you'd be able to see them clearly enough. In fact, you can see when I push him to stay in canter because he flips his tail. The harder I push, the bigger the tail flip. Trouble is, all the pushing in the world isn't going to keep him in canter if I'm blocking him from cantering.

Obviously, the ring's so small it would be nuts to try to get him going faster so that I could put him against the bit and then try to develop an elastic contact from that, so my plan all along has been to go the balance to movement route rather than the balance from movement one.

I guess I don't see you taking much action to connect Sting or help him balance.
This isn't about going FASTER, its about getting him connected at a basic level.

It looks like Sting is working with you and that’s a good thing. Personally, I place a high value on having a good partnership with my horse.

I had a thought about the difference in the segments where he canters only a few strides before dropping to trot, and the segment where he maintains the canter. When he maintains the canter, it looks like you’re sitting back a little more on your seat, and your hands are a little lower. Am I seeing it correctly? If so, is raising your hands part of the cue for strike off?

can you show us a trot/canter transition?

I like that you waited for him to canter in the transition and didn't hassle him and he gave you a balanced trans. When he falls out of canter, just balance the trot first and ask again.

Flight wrote:I like that you waited for him to canter in the transition and didn't hassle him and he gave you a balanced trans. When he falls out of canter, just balance the trot first and ask again.

I was very tempted to get after him when he kept falling out of canter, but didn't because it was so out of character for him that I thought something was wrong. And of course, something was wrong (the rider).

Ryeissa wrote:can you show us a trot/canter transition?

I'll get some on tape when I ride on Monday.

demi wrote:I had a thought about the difference in the segments where he canters only a few strides before dropping to trot, and the segment where he maintains the canter. When he maintains the canter, it looks like you’re sitting back a little more on your seat, and your hands are a little lower. Am I seeing it correctly? If so, is raising your hands part of the cue for strike off?

Yes, that's what happens. If I'm thinking "more forward" I tend to go in that direction, but if he's maintaining on his own, or at least maintaining easily, I'll sit back down again. Same with looking down. If my attention is on him rather than where we're headed I'll be looking down at him.

My hands tend to get lower when I'm trying to get him to bend without hollowing, although sometimes I just go for the bend and don't worry about where his head/neck is. I'm still using primarily a voice cue for canter, although I'll back that up with leg to try to hurry it up if he's getting stuck. I used to just use the voice cue and then reward him when he cantered, but in this vid I was working on bend, too.

In the vid below I was just going from trot to canter, because canter will sometimes get him more forward and then he'll give me a better trot. I also put the fdo he offers at the end. I noticed that his tail swings faster/more when he's fdo, so I'd say he's either more on the forehand so his hind end is freer, or he's using his whole body more which makes his tail swing more? Don't know if tail movement is a reflection of what's going on from some point (sacrum?) back, or includes the spine behind the withers, or ???? Also don't know if he offers fdo because it feels good or because he thinks that might be what I want?

https://youtu.be/jg4sR38I-o8

A couple of techniques I have found useful with various horses who are behind the leg/lazy at canter (which is what I see---to me, it is similar to your trot video):

-If/when they fall out of canter, just go clearly forward in trot (good working trot or even bigger). Get them motoring forward in another gait, then balance and canter again. Don't do a jog-y, weak trot and then expect a good forward canter. This clarifies the "go forward and motor on" aspect to remaining in a gait, and makes it clear that breaking in canter does not mean avoiding work.

-To help a horse separate the hind legs in canter and step under more here are a couple of ideas
---You can soften the outside rein as you ask for step under activity with your legs. Then return to normal contact.
---You can touch the horse on the inside hind leg (not the haunch) with a longish dressage whip (know your horse before assuming this is fine). You touch just before the inside leg swings forward.

How big is your indoor? It looks small to me, too. Perhaps save the canter work for outside for now.

piedmontfields wrote:
How big is your indoor? It looks small to me, too. Perhaps save the canter work for outside for now.

Right now it's 60 by about 100, but as the hay goes it'll get back to 60 X 120 and then I'll have more room on the long sides and diagonals. Although I'm not convinced that I actually need more room to get more impulsion, because I'm not really looking for faster, or longer strides, but am looking for more thrust/carrying from the hind legs. And I think that can be taught without needing to develop it from pushing a horse onto his forehand and against the bit and then leveraging his front end up (balance from movement).

I guess we'll see...

Kande, about your note on trying to straighten him - more power and thrust will straighten him for you. If I have a horse that is particularly crooked or wiggly - I go more forward and it straightens out all on it's own. Not 100% of the time obviously, but, it's something to think about!

Dresseur wrote:Kande, about your note on trying to straighten him - more power and thrust will straighten him for you. If I have a horse that is particularly crooked or wiggly - I go more forward and it straightens out all on it's own. Not 100% of the time obviously, but, it's something to think about!

Yes, I think it probably all goes together, and if we're missing one part of it we're stuck there until we can get more of what's missing without losing what we have. I've been thinking about it though, and have a plan.

kande50 wrote:I got overly ambitious about trying to bend him in canter and messed it all up, but he gave me this really cute strike off, anyway.

Took me awhile to figure out why it seemed like he'd regressed, and of course, my first thought was that he was sore/lame/sick, but after sleeping on it I realized that it was probably the usual (too much, too soon). And of course, as soon as I regressed to where we actually were, he didn't have any more trouble sustaining the canter. :-/

https://youtu.be/y5NtcGRIusM

I had to go back to your first post and read between the lines a little to try to figure out what you might be looking for from this thread.

I don't think you're exactly asking for "too much, too soon." However, if it were me, I might try to break things down a little. So instead of W/C and then also expecting a sustained canter with jump, I might do W/C for like 4-6 strides, transition to trot, re-check the connection, and then T/C and focus on sustaining the quality for halfway around the arena, then down transition on my terms, not because he fell out of canter.

In the T/C transitions, I'm not really seeing a HH coiling the energy for an uphill depart. It is very controlled, smooth and looks comfy, but it's not going to produce an energetic canter, because the legs aren't coming more under in the transition.

StraightForward wrote:
I had to go back to your first post and read between the lines a little to try to figure out what you might be looking for from this thread.

I wasn't looking for anything in particular, but just came across the footage of the strike off when I was going through video and thought I'd share it because I thought it was cute.

I don't think you're exactly asking for "too much, too soon." However, if it were me, I might try to break things down a little.So instead of W/C and then also expecting a sustained canter with jump, I might do W/C for like 4-6 strides, transition to trot, re-check the connection, and then T/C and focus on sustaining the quality for halfway around the arena, then down transition on my terms, not because he fell out of canter.

Yes, agree, which is why that's pretty much what we did when we first started canter several years ago--which is why I was thinking that something was physically wrong because he doesn't normally have any problem sustaining canter.

In the T/C transitions, I'm not really seeing a HH coiling the energy for an uphill depart. It is very controlled, smooth and looks comfy, but it's not going to produce an energetic canter, because the legs aren't coming more under in the transition.

The hh's are subtle because of the same "too much too soon" issue I'm trying to avoid. If I go for more impulsion that would put him more on his forehand, which I'd then have to hh him back off. But until he becomes more laterally flexible he can't become more longitudinally flexible, so all that impulsion and the subsequent hh's would just make him stiffer, which is, of course, not what I'm after.

Good discussion though, as it got me thinking more about what I need to do next (instead of pulling him off balance at the canter )

I think if he's not ready for a meaningful HH for a T/C transition, then he's not ready for the W/C transition. However, you started with the W/C, and by my judgement, it demonstrates that he could be HH'ed and produce a more impulsive T/C transition.

there is a difference in adding impulsion for power and having a basic forward thinking horse. I think you need to get some more energy at a basic level, you don't seem to have much in your hand or leg to work with.

I don't think this will take much, Sting seems willing but you aren't telling him to do anything, that I can see, as far as guiding him to keep moving or bending. But it doesn't seem that you want help, so maybe Im wasting my time.

I said this same thing 5-7 yrs ago to you LOL.

Just to be clear, I don't think that bending more in canter is too much too soon for him, but the amount of bending I was trying to get obviously was.

It's interesting that when I used to push him more he just went against the bit (what I call charging around), but he doesn't want to do that anymore. He still doesn't get what I'm looking for as far as up vs go-forward, but I just remembered the cues I was using for that before, and no surprise that our ride went a lot more smoothly today.

He remembered the cue of course, and has probably been thinking WTF do you want me to do,?

Ryeissa wrote:
I said this same thing 5-7 yrs ago to you LOL.

I'm also interested in the balance from movement progression and enjoy seeing and reading about it, but because Sting has a club foot I decided to go with balance before movement, to hopefully keep him sounder for longer.

The progressions are so different that I don't think it's possible to just mix them together. At some point they do merge, but first we have to get to that point.

The canter is the most like riding a bike of all the gaits. Once you learn, you never forget it, but more importantly: you need to have enough energy to keep everything upright. It takes a lot of power to collect the canter properly (without breaking the canter rhythm by taking out the moment of suspension). And yeah, you can get into some trouble if you start going too fast, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

I also don't think more impulsion necessitates more on the forehand. Not sure where that's from.

Ponichiwa wrote:I also don't think more impulsion necessitates more on the forehand. Not sure where that's from.

Yeah. Its usually the opppsite.

Ponichiwa wrote:
I also don't think more impulsion necessitates more on the forehand. Not sure where that's from.

I'm quite sure it does until they're able to lift the forehand, which in many cases never happens. Or at least that's what the force plate studies have shown.

The force plate studies - unless you know of others- were from piaffe to levade, and what that proved was that the hind started to carry more weight, which lightened the front - not that the front punched off of the ground. How do you get the hind to carry more weight, by putting the hind legs closer to the center of gravity - ie, not out behind.

In the canter, you have to put the hind where the horse can bring the shoulders up, otherwise, the horse is just punching the shoulders off the ground using the forelegs. More impulsion (with well timed half halts) put the hind more under, which frees the shoulder sling to come up. Also, it serves to strengthen the drawbridge of the back - in order to have the hind be able to effect the front, the back needs to be strong and connected, not weak and hollow. If you watch the video of Charm and look at the photos that I posted on the training thread- that's exactly what I'm doing... sending the energy forward and recycling it so that he brings the shoulders up, and it gives him a nice uphill canter. But it's a forward canter. Otherwise, he disconnects and canters in two parts and it's quite uncomfortable for horse and rider alike. Sure, a forward, strung-out horse can be on the forehand, but lazy unengaged canters are always on the forehand imo. A connected forward horse is a horse that is lifting the shoulders and going in the right direction, training-wise.

Dresseur wrote:The force plate studies - unless you know of others- were from piaffe to levade, and what that proved was that the hind started to carry more weight, which lightened the front - not that the front punched off of the ground.

The ones I'm referring to were done with horses who were getting good scores in comps at the more advanced levels, and looked at all 3 gaits. I'll see if I can find some of them.

I haven't seen the ones that looked at piaffe to levade, and am not sure why there would even be any need for force plate studies on something so obvious?

Ryeissa wrote:
Yeah. Its usually the opppsite.

I think the term impulsion is often used to describe impulsion within the context of collection, but impulsion, IMO, describes pushing/power/energy in any direction, while lifting the forehand describes collection. So there can be impulsion with or without collection, and when a horse can't yet collect the more impulsion we create the more he loads his forehand.

It's why it's so much easier to get a horse to take a stronger contact with the bit by creating more impulsion in a forward direction, because that balance makes it harder for him to avoid it.

It sounds like you are thinking that collection is an either/or state. Collection is the act of carrying more weight behind. There are many degrees of this, and you *should always be working towards more collection. But if you send a horse forward, and give a hh, the horse carries more weight behind for a moment, then in that moment, the horse became a bit more collected. It may only be able to carry that for a stride, maybe 2, but that is how you teach them the desired reaction.

Impulsion is not bigger and faster- what’s the quote, “impulsion is not the wind in your hair”? Added impulsion should not automatically create a heavier horse. Can it, sure. But not if you manage it correctly. So yes, there can be impulsion without collection, and this is wrong. Even a weak horse can carry better balance for a few steps, but that’s why training is a progression.

You don’t come out one day and say, “now I’m working on collection” or “now my horse is collected”. The rider should be working on this way of carrying and strength building a bit every ride so the horse comes into a full collection over years. And you need forward energy and forward responses to do that. Just think of what a piaffe is, forward energy contained on carrying hindquarters. The canter is the same, forward energy that is carried on the hindquarters. You can’t leverage the horse’s shoulders up to create that (well, you can, I’ve seen riders do it, and I’ve tried to do it) the hindquarters of the horse need enough energy and need to be placed in a position that lifts the shoulders through the back and through their sling. Anything other hollows the horse. That’s why you should actually be adding a bit of energy and impusion to the gait right before you do a downward transition. You push the hindlegs a bit further under so the horse can be in better balance to do the actual transition.

Ps: the first force plate studies were done by Paul Belasik and Dr. Hilary Clayton and were from piaffe to levade. They were done to disprove the idea that horses don’t actually carry more weight behind when they collect and that levade was performed by the horse pushing off the ground with the forelegs as opposed to lightening the front as the horse rocks over the hind. People were putting that notion out to justify all the incorrect piaffes and passages that were being seen (and still are) in the modern show ring.

BBM starts with a soft jaw, and having the horse on the aids.

Ryeissa wrote:BBM starts with a soft jaw, and having the horse on the aids.

I think we have the soft jaw, and he's on the aids to the degree that he's able to be on the aids without coming btv. He drops btv occasionally, but btv is way too easy for him so I avoid that.

so tell me why you say he is on the aids.

Because he's doing what I'm cueing him to do.

Aids don't have to be the traditional ones to be aids, which is why I so often call them cues, because not all of the cues I use are the traditional ones.

kande50 wrote:Because he's doing what I'm cueing him to do.

Aids don't have to be the traditional ones to be aids, which is why I so often call them cues, because not all of them are the traditional ones.

ok, we are not on the same page here. I think this is probably were I end my thoughts

kande50 wrote:It's interesting that when I used to push him more he just went against the bit (what I call charging around), but he doesn't want to do that anymore. He still doesn't get what I'm looking for as far as up vs go-forward, but I just remembered the cues I was using for that before, and no surprise that our ride went a lot more smoothly today.

I can imagine that containing a little impulsion would feel like "against the bit" when you usually ride on slack reins. I used to ride western pleasure, so this contact thing is taking me time to get a feel for. I have video from riding Obie about six years ago and I was dropping him frequently. I would ride him quite a bit differently today, and I would probably be able to get him past basic training level work now, because of that.

When the horse is not stepping under, you can ask for "up" but you just get stiff-backed porpoising, not a balanced step up into proper, round, 3-beat sustainable canter.

The screen shots Rye posted demonstrate that he is not stepping under himself, so that is really where I would focus with this horse. Have you seen the book When 2 Spines Align? The theme through the book is that, to create balance in movement, the exercises should be working the horse towards stepping the hind legs under the rider's spine. Then lift can be created; otherwise, the horse will be perpetually on the forehand because the hind legs are not under enough to carry.

StraightForward wrote:
I can imagine that containing a little impulsion would feel like "against the bit" when you usually ride on slack reins.

I think it probably depends what one thinks is a pleasant ride, and I want to ride a horse who is between the hand and the leg rather than against the hand. Others seem to be fine riding with more weight in their hands, but it's not for me. I'd much rather have the reins go slack than have weight in my hands.

kande50 wrote:

StraightForward wrote:
I can imagine that containing a little impulsion would feel like "against the bit" when you usually ride on slack reins.

I think it probably depends what one thinks is a pleasant ride, and I want to ride a horse who is between the hand and the leg rather than against the hand. Others seem to be fine riding with more weight in their hands, but it's not for me. I'd much rather have the reins go slack than have weight in my hands.

But Sting is not between the hand and leg. He's behind the leg. You can have a horse be in front of your leg and have slack reins if you want. You still need the horse to have the hindquarters placed in the manner that allows the horse to carry itself.

Sting's carrying leg - in this case, the outside hind, is barely coming up to be in line with his stifle and at the point that should be the height of the canter stride, his carrying (outside hind) is behind the point of his hip and the shoulders are already rolling to the ground. His inside hind barely even comes up under your leg. To do the depart, he starts pushing his shoulders up through his front legs before he ever even gets the hind legs up - in essence, he's dragging himself into the canter with his front end as opposed to pushing up into it with his hind. The other thing that I look at is that the front of the saddle pad describes a downward arc as opposed to an upward arc. That's not my opinion, that's bio-mechanically what's happening and while it may give you the feel that you are looking for, is not going to result in a collected horse.

Dresseur wrote:That's not my opinion, that's bio-mechanically what's happening and while it may give you the feel that you are looking for, is not going to result in a collected horse.

yup

Dresseur wrote:But Sting is not between the hand and leg. He's behind the leg.

Yes, I realize that, but between the hand and leg is what I'm aiming for.

Yes, and to achieve that, you need more impulsion and a better response to your aids. That's all

kande50 wrote:

Dresseur wrote:But Sting is not between the hand and leg. He's behind the leg.

Yes, I realize that, but between the hand and leg is what I'm aiming for.

you can't have a horse between the hand and leg if he's behind the leg.

Ryeissa wrote:

you can't have a horse between the hand and leg if he's behind the leg.

Or if he's in front of the hand. Guess that's why it's called between the hand and the leg.

kande50 wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:

you can't have a horse between the hand and leg if he's behind the leg.

Or if he's in front of the hand.

that is not a correct term, did you mean something else?

Ryeissa wrote:
that is not a correct term, did you mean something else?

No, I made it up. I think against the bit is made up too, although most seem to understand what is meant by it.

kande50 wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:
that is not a correct term, did you mean something else?

No, I made it up. I think against the bit is made up too, although most seem to understand what is meant by it.

ok