Another theory question

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Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:17 pm

I hear about the hind leg reaching forward and under more, and I understand that it has to come forward more (from where it started) if the horse is going to be able to take more weight on the hinds so he can lift the front end, but how does flexing the joints fit into this?

IOW, when a horse reaches forward and under more the hip flexes more, but the rest of the joints extend more.

The way I understand it collection is about all the hind joints flexing more so that the horse "sits" more, so what is the purpose of riding forward and doing lateral work to get them to step under more? Is it about straightening? Flexibility? How does it facilitate collection?
Last edited by kande50 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:25 pm

The way I think about it is that the horse's pelvis has to rotate (in the direction of tucking the tail, although they never go that far). This is what results in more flexing and more reach under the center of the horse. The lumbar area of the horse will appear smoother and rounder when they do this action.

When we describe a horse as "out behind" or disengaged, we are usually also seeing a lack of pelvic rotation---or the pelvis is actually rotating the opposite way (towards the tail).

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 pm

It facilitates strength. As you position the hind to further under the body mass of the horse, it bears more weight. Shoulder in and other lateral work isolates one hind leg or another - think of it as weight lifting for horses (in addition to the suppling aspects). Eventually, as the horse gets stronger and stronger, the horse can shift the weight towards its hind end, which creates more flexing in the stance phase of the leg. What we were discussing in the canter is about driving the hind under so that the horse momentarily carries more weight behind again, and positions the stance phase of the outside hind into a place where it carries more weight. When you ride forward though, you have to recycle the energy or you do just get a horse flying around on it's forehand - that's big and flat vs forward and up. Doing transitions properly through gaits (primarily trot/halts) will teach a horse to flex in the lumbar area - again to place the hinds further under the body - which in turns lowers the haunches, which accordions the joints of the hinds into more flexed position.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby MysticOak » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:32 pm

Riding forward requires both flexing and extending, and is about building fitness and developing energy. You can't have collection without those components. You develop carrying power slowly - if you look at the training pyramid, it starts with the horse going freely forward - energy and tempo.

Next step on the pyramid is suppleness and elasticity - lateral work helps with this. Lateral work also helps to develop more articulation of the joints and lowering of the hips - aka the beginning of collection (if you watch a horse in shoulder in, the inside hip will be lower - we are getting more articulation/bending, creating a bit of "uphill". And yes, ultimately lateral work helps with control of the horse's shoulders and haunches - thus straightness.

Many people think collection means slower - and it DOES NOT. It means the power becomes more contained, the energy goes more up instead of out. But it takes a lot of strength to do this - and the training pyramid is about slowly developing that strength.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby musical comedy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:50 pm

Dresseur wrote: What we were discussing in the canter is about driving the hind under so that the horse momentarily carries more weight behind again, and positions the stance phase of the outside hind into a place where it carries more weight. When you ride forward though, you have to recycle the energy or you do just get a horse flying around on it's forehand - that's big and flat vs forward and up.
Just to add that while inside leg 'reach' is nice, too many people confuse it with engagement which is shown in the 'stance' phase, as you say. I can't tell you how many times I've read comments (in various places) using engagement when they mean reach. It's clearly stated in the USDF Glossary.
I've seen lots of big reach canters and the outside hind is straight. Not what we're looking for.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby StraightForward » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:57 pm

For me, it's useful to think of a horse jumping. A horse cannot flex its hind legs to push off and leap over a jump unless the legs are already under the body mass. Otherwise, it would just crash forward through the jump and land in a heap.

Try doing a squat with your body mass ahead of your heels. You will fall on your face.

I think this image demonstrates well the haunches lowering and joints folding to coil for a jump. That would be impossible if the horse was not stepping under the rider/horse center of gravity.
Image
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:12 pm

Here are some photos to illustrate.

charm1.jpg
charm1.jpg (100.97 KiB) Viewed 16375 times

So, Charm has a decent front end mechanic. His problem, he wants to dwell a bit, and he'd love to stay flat. So, I move him out quite forward and do lifting hh that I release quite quickly so that the canter doesn't get too big and so that he can't lean on me. The result is that in the lifting portion of the stride - just before the apex - his outside hind is carrying a fair amount of weight and the leg is just about in line with the stifle. As he unloads on the left, the hind joints start to flex more and the canter has stayed up - vs flattening out. Inside hind and outside front are about even in terms of lift off the ground. I would say that he's almost too far under with the inside hind - to MC's point, that does not mean necessarily that he's well engaged - I'm looking to what the outside hind is doing.

Miro1.jpg
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Miro actually has a not great canter mechanic - he doesn't lift the front end or his knees very well. So again, he gets driven forward. He's another that would love to dwell in a teacup if he could. So, on the left is the result of sending him forward. Again, note the placement of the outside hind. WHen he lets out - he's quick to bring the shoulder down - which keeps him a bit more open behind than I would like. If I had to criticize him, it's that he does want to be a bit out behind. So, what we are doing with him, sooner rather than later, is haunches in on the circle. (this is a very large circle btw) One, it gets the hind to come under and flex more - note the position of his outside hind, the flexing of the joints, and the flexing of the ls joint - and, note the height of the forehand - not from picking him up in the front.

gala1.jpg
gala1.jpg (88.41 KiB) Viewed 16375 times

Gala, at GP, also actually has a poor canter. It's been described as a sheep's canter lol. In any case, you can see that her outside hind in the left pic is well under her body mass, and while she doesn't have a ton of height - because she just doesn't have a great canter, she is still coming up in this stride - note the flexing of both hinds. Also, see the position of the LS on her. In the pic on the right - which is a much less collected canter- that outside hind is still well under her body, and is carrying her as opposed to pushing out behind.

In any case, the fixes for all of these canters was and is to ride forward, get the strength behind, and then do lateral work to refine it and shift the balance.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:28 pm

musical comedy wrote: Just to add that while inside leg 'reach' is nice, too many people confuse it with engagement which is shown in the 'stance' phase, as you say. I can't tell you how many times I've read comments (in various places) using engagement when they mean reach. It's clearly stated in the USDF Glossary.
I've seen lots of big reach canters and the outside hind is straight. Not what we're looking for.


*That's* what I was trying to sort out. So engagement is related to collection, but reach is more about flexibility?

I've been focused on trot for so long that I haven't looked at a whole lot of canter, so now I need to be able to see more of what's going on in canter. It sounds like I not only need to be able to see when the inside hind starts to engage, but also need to be aware of what each leg is doing at each point in the stride?

Funny how I bought a WB so that I'd be able to more easily match up what I was seeing with what I had, only to find out that most of what I was seeing was not going to be what I was going to want. :-) There's just no direct way to figure this out other than to dissect it piece by piece.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:38 pm

kande50 wrote:
musical comedy wrote: Just to add that while inside leg 'reach' is nice, too many people confuse it with engagement which is shown in the 'stance' phase, as you say. I can't tell you how many times I've read comments (in various places) using engagement when they mean reach. It's clearly stated in the USDF Glossary.
I've seen lots of big reach canters and the outside hind is straight. Not what we're looking for.


*That's* what I was trying to sort out. So engagement is related to collection, but reach is more about flexibility?

I've been focused on trot for so long that I haven't looked at a whole lot of canter, so now I need to be able to see more of what's going on in canter. It sounds like I not only need to be able to see when the inside hind starts to engage, but also need to be aware of what each leg is doing at each point in the stride?

Funny how I bought a WB so that I'd be able to more easily match up what I was seeing with what I had, only to find out that most of what I was seeing was not going to be what I was going to want. :-) There's just no direct way to figure this out other than to dissect it piece by piece.


Yes, in the canter, it's not about how far under can you drive the inside hind, it's how can you access the outside hind and get it to carry more, which in turns lifts the shoulders out of the way. Engagement leads to collection, the amount of reach I would say yes, that's related to flexibility and each individual horse's biomechanics. Charm and Miro both reach WAY under with the inside hind, I actually want to tone that down and increase carrying on the outside hind. But, you need to go forward with well time hh to achieve that, and use the lateral work within the canter to troubleshoot and pinpoint issues.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:58 pm

piedmontfields wrote:The way I think about it is that the horse's pelvis has to rotate (in the direction of tucking the tail, although they never go that far).


That, I can see, but I think I can only see it at the point at which it becomes pretty obvious, and need to be able to see it when it first starts.

It's also useful to hear that we don't want the canter to get too big, and that I need to look at the position of the outside hind.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:03 pm

kande50 wrote:
piedmontfields wrote:
It's also useful to hear that we don't want the canter to get too big, and that I need to look at the outside hind.


nor the trot. Its about coiling and power. You can't have too much power forward with out some "measuring of stride". The biggest revelation of my somewhat recent work (3 yrs ago) is just how much we have to limit the forward reach of the front legs in collection. It has to be in balance.
Ie; More up down/wait, then fling outwards. Shoulder reach is lovely, and we want that, but this is why *some* lovely movers can't collect and be shaped with the forehand elevated.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:12 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Shoulder reach is lovely, and we want that, but this is why *some* lovely movers can't collect and be shaped with the forehand elevated.


Can't, or aren't, because it's so much easier to just over flex the neck and teach them to do crazy stuff with their legs, than teach them to collect?

I would think that any sound horse could be taught to collect?

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:25 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:Shoulder reach is lovely, and we want that, but this is why *some* lovely movers can't collect and be shaped with the forehand elevated.


Can't, or aren't, because it's so much easier to just over flex the neck and teach them to do crazy stuff with their legs, than teach them to collect?

I would think that any sound horse could be taught to collect?


its not crazy stuff. It is why if you have too much forward motion in one direction with no balancing force they can't collect. It has nothing to do with overflexing the neck.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:33 pm

Ryeissa wrote:its not crazy stuff. It is why if you have too much forward motion in one direction with no balancing force they can't collect. It has nothing to do with overflexing the neck.


Of course it does, because as soon as the horse is ridden with his neck over flexed then he's unable to collect.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:07 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:its not crazy stuff. It is why if you have too much forward motion in one direction with no balancing force they can't collect. It has nothing to do with overflexing the neck.


Of course it does, because as soon as the horse is ridden with his neck over flexed then he's unable to collect.


As much as we like to think it's mutually exclusive, it isn't. That pic of Miro in the canter with his haunches in, he's a bit over-flexed there - but he is collecting. The horse can be collected and have an overflexed neck or not be textbook in other ways. As you said, any sound horse can be taught the rudiments of collection - because it's not necessarily a skill that the horse either has or hasn't got, it's a mechanical shifting of weight back, and, it's a technique of how the horse carries itself and uses itself. The degree or capacity to which they are able to collect, or how easily they can flex the joints and the ls joint etc is genetic imo. But there's also the mental capacity - because the highest levels of collection, the horse is quite coiled with a lot of energy that has no outlet, and that can be a barrier for horses.

The problem IMO that I see with the modern competition/modern warmbloods is that they are routinely ridden very forward and very over tempo with the focus on flinging front legs. Rarely do I see people doing a ton of transitions, or doing a ton of lateral work - it's all sweeping lines and straight aways, which does not create the right conditions for collection - it actually leaves the hind legs out behind and stiffens the back, and then people go to flexing the front of the horse to create "softness", when the real issue is behind the saddle.

And I will say, obviously, if you routinely ride with an over flexed neck or neck that is too deep, or constantly ride long and low, again, you will have an extraordinarily hard time getting the horse to shift weight back, because the energy has no where to go other than down on the forehand - which leaves the hinds out behind. But, a few moments of being over flexed or deep won't hinder collection as an end goal. And don't think that just because the neck is up, that you (general you) will automatically be teaching the mechanics of collection, you have to have the neck in a place that allows the horse to have moments of self-carriage, so that you're not propping it up and it's not leaning on you, and then you go after the hind legs.
Last edited by Dresseur on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:59 pm

Dresseur wrote: The problem IMO that I see with the modern competition/modern warmbloods is that they are routinely ridden very forward and very over tempo with the focus on flinging front legs. Rarely do I see people doing a ton of transitions, or doing a ton of lateral work - it's all sweeping lines and straight aways, which does not create the right conditions for collection - it actually leaves the hind legs out behind and stiffens the back, and then people go to flexing the front of the horse to create "softness", when the real issue is behind the saddle.


I was about to say I totally agree, but I think you left out a "not" in the above comment :-)

It is fascinating to me watching the very nice WBs and riders at my barn, as most are exactly guilty of these habits. When they practice "their dressage" there is very little change in bend/frame/stride and very very few transitions. It's very pretty and flow-y looking, but it doesn't change the horse's athletic ability or help the horse develop strength for collection.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:13 pm

I did indeed! Thank you, I'll edit!

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:31 pm

kande50 wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:its not crazy stuff. It is why if you have too much forward motion in one direction with no balancing force they can't collect. It has nothing to do with overflexing the neck.


Of course it does, because as soon as the horse is ridden with his neck over flexed then he's unable to collect.


what does overflexed mean to you? since you seem to make up definitions as it suits you.

Being behind the vertical isn't the same as being behind the bit/contact.

I agree with dresseur.

I see horses BTV collected all the time :lol: Again, BTV can be a strength issue, and to discuss how "bad" it is, we need context.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:59 am

Dresseur wrote:
As much as we like to think it's mutually exclusive, it isn't. That pic of Miro in the canter with his haunches in, he's a bit over-flexed there - but he is collecting.


Hard to tell without at least a few strides of video to see what happens before and after the still.

The degree or capacity to which they are able to collect, or how easily they can flex the joints and the ls joint etc is genetic imo. But there's also the mental capacity - because the highest levels of collection, the horse is quite coiled with a lot of energy that has no outlet, and that can be a barrier for horses.


I wondered if PK was ever going to be able to get High Noon to collect because I didn't think the horse had much natural ability for it, but he did.

problem IMO that I see with the modern competition/modern warmbloods is that they are routinely ridden very forward and very over tempo with the focus on flinging front legs. Rarely do I see people doing a ton of transitions, or doing a ton of lateral work - it's all sweeping lines and straight aways, which does not create the right conditions for collection - it actually leaves the hind legs out behind and stiffens the back, and then people go to flexing the front of the horse to create "softness", when the real issue is behind the saddle.


I get where they're coming from, because I'm guilty of that, too. I get into that trot or canter and it's so pleasant and easy to ride that I don't want to change anything. I just want to get into the rhythm and go and go and go.

And don't think that just because the neck is up, that you (general you) will automatically be teaching the mechanics of collection, you have to have the neck in a place that allows the horse to have moments of self-carriage, so that you're not propping it up and it's not leaning on you, and then you go after the hind legs.


I don't even see it as a contact issue so much as a position issue. IOW, if the neck is lifted up too far the horse can't collect because he can't use the muscles he needs to use to lift the withers, but if the poll drops too low then the horse just stays on his forehand (for the same reason). The reason I don't think it's dependent on the contact, or lack thereof, is because the same appears to be true of horses at liberty.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:07 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
what does overflexed mean to you? since you seem to make up definitions as it suits you.


Over flexed. In this context it would mean btv.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:18 pm

piedmontfields wrote:It is fascinating to me watching the very nice WBs and riders at my barn, as most are exactly guilty of these habits. When they practice "their dressage" there is very little change in bend/frame/stride and very very few transitions.


Part of that may be because they're not very bendy. I can change the length of the frame and the stride length quite a bit, but bend through the body does not come easily to my horse. I thought it was because of his club foot, but he doesn't bend either way very well, and when I think about it, neither did the Morgans we had who were built similarly. They step under well, they lift their front ends more easily than the bendier horses, but they just don't bend much.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:32 pm

That’s totally horse dependent. I’ve ridden some WBs that were stiff as boards and some that were noodles. But if you have a stiff horse, you definitely need to work on bending and suppling. Starting with leg yields and circles and gradually increasing the difficulty of the exercises and the amount of bend that you ask for.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:04 pm

Dresseur wrote:That’s totally horse dependent. I’ve ridden some WBs that were stiff as boards and some that were noodles. But if you have a stiff horse, you definitely need to work on bending and suppling. Starting with leg yields and circles and gradually increasing the difficulty of the exercises and the amount of bend that you ask for.


Oh we've worked on it. I've been obsessed with it for years, because I know what a reasonably straight horse feels like and I wanted this one to feel like that, too. But there is a limit to how much of anything we can get without losing something else we want, too.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:36 pm

kande50 wrote:But there is a limit to how much of anything we can get without losing something else we want, too.

I'm not sure I agree with that in the end. Maybe in a particular phase of training. But I think that this ends up being very rider/trainer dependent. You're either good enough, or not. And if you're not, make yourself better. (PS: that's not aimed at anyone, just a general philosophy of mine.)

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Re: Another theory question

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:01 pm

I would say that most of the WBs I see being ridden in a pleasant but not developmental manner are way more talented at everything than my horse! Sure, some are very bendy, some are stiff, some have more of a motor than others. But they are capable.

Of course, I am also a believer that if something is hard for your horse, that something is what you need to work on--so that it changes and becomes easier. A lot of people prefer to work on what is easy and pleasant on a particular horse---and hence, the horse does not become stronger, more supple or straighter.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby musical comedy » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:18 pm

Can good bending be accomplished without having a horse connected over the back and into the outside rein?

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Re: Another theory question

Postby demi » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:30 pm

Did anyone watch the JS suppling video on the Rudy thread? I found it very useful and think it’s pertinent to this discussion. I think it would be a good exercise to personally get on video and then post for helpful critique (yikes!!!). When watching the the vid, I couldn’t see every little thing that JS was pointing out as it was going on, but I know this is largely because my eye is undeveloped. I will watch it closely several more times to try to pick up more before I try it myself.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:47 pm

demi wrote:Did anyone watch the JS suppling video on the Rudy thread? I found it very useful and think it’s pertinent to this discussion. I think it would be a good exercise to personally get on video and then post for helpful critique (yikes!!!). When watching the the vid, I couldn’t see every little thing that JS was pointing out as it was going on, but I know this is largely because my eye is undeveloped. I will watch it closely several more times to try to pick up more before I try it myself.


On that thread I said that I didn't like it, although generally I am a fan of Jane Savoie (JS)

I find that supplying to that degree locks the inside shoulder. It's more of a beginner horse and rider exercise, at least in my opinion. Its a starting point.

I am getting more and more away from that practice. I use a slight upward flexion but my trainers are expecting me to use my seat and other aids to shape the horse, vs rein. I use if the neck is the *specific* problem but most times neck tension can be released by other means. I fiddle with my hands too much so I avoid doing more with my hands. I'm not where I want to be yet, but every time I circle back using the inside rein or supple with rein it ends up with terrible results, which reminds me why it's not good for me.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby demi » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:19 pm

Thanks for clarifying that, Ryeissa. Suppling is something I dont have a natural feel for and this video just made it very clear for me. I have watched a few of Karen Rohlf’s vid on suppling and tried some of the exercises but for some reason the JS vid just clicked. Who knows what will turn a light on sometimes!? Not that one teacher is necessarily better than another, but sometimes one works for one rider at one particular time and another doesn’t.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:06 pm

demi wrote:Thanks for clarifying that, Ryeissa. Suppling is something I dont have a natural feel for and this video just made it very clear for me. I have watched a few of Karen Rohlf’s vid on suppling and tried some of the exercises but for some reason the JS vid just clicked. Who knows what will turn a light on sometimes!? Not that one teacher is necessarily better than another, but sometimes one works for one rider at one particular time and another doesn’t.


yeah, for sure!

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Re: Another theory question

Postby Dresseur » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:18 pm

musical comedy wrote:Can good bending be accomplished without having a horse connected over the back and into the outside rein?

MC, I go back and forth on that. I'm trying to envision what I do on green horses, so this is a bit stream of consciousness. I think that true, good bending the horse has to be connected, but I think that there are a lot of stages before that where the horse may be inconsistent in the contact or inconsistently over the bit, but still be bending. I guess it depends on how finished we are defining the bend. Into the outside rein, I personally think that the horse has to be connected to both, it should respect the inside and outside rein and I tend to think of the outside rein as my limiting rein. Meaning, if I ask for inside flexion with my inside rein, and ask the horse to bend using my inside leg, the outside rein's job (in my mind) is to tell the horse how big or small to make that arc, because the amount of bend the horse can physically offer is limited by biomechanics. And, I have a bad habit to let go of the outside to pat a horse (i know it's supposed to be inside) but the horse maintains the bend - so when I let go of that outside rein, technically, the horse is no longer being held or connected by that rein. Or, when I give both reins forward as a test, the horse maintains the bend, and then it's not being held or connected to any rein, the connection is over the back and through the body. So, I agree with connected over the back for good bend - but maybe not always into the outside.

Ryeissa
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Re: Another theory question

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:03 pm

musical comedy wrote:Can good bending be accomplished without having a horse connected over the back and into the outside rein?


No, I don't think so.

One of the pre-reqs is the horse is connected in order that the rider can effectively "shape" the horse to align his body in being "truly bent" correctly.

Both the inside and outside of the horse needs to be managed, such as to capture the inside hind.

This is why the connection and outside rein is so fundamental (1st position, SF, SI)l. Its not the end itself, it is what it allows the rider to do with it that matters.

This pic suggests why that is important- this is incorrect.

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Re: Another theory question

Postby kande50 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:49 am

piedmontfields wrote:
Of course, I am also a believer that if something is hard for your horse, that something is what you need to work on--so that it changes and becomes easier. A lot of people prefer to work on what is easy and pleasant on a particular horse---and hence, the horse does not become stronger, more supple or straighter.


I think that depends entirely upon whether horse and rider really are well enough prepared to start working on the next step, or if they're trying to get too much, too soon. The way I see it now is that none of it should be hard for my horse, because he should be so ready for the next step that it
should just happen, without any drama or stress.

I can't always achieve that because I get overly ambitious now and then, but that doesn't happen often and I squelch it when it does.


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