Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

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kathel
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Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm

First at all, sorry my rusty english... I'm tired of Finnish horse forums, there has been such a bad spirit in recent years. Maybe I can find better company from another country :D
I have two standardbred geldings (Lloyd 10 yo + Cody 19 yo), ex-trotters.

Last few years I've been improving Cody's strength and balance.

He is very sensitive to the weight aids and rein aids, our problem is his reactions to the leg aids. He is very calm boy, I still wouldn't call him lazy.
I would like to warm-up him quietly ( in the "pony trot"). If I do so, he will move too much upwards. It's not that he is trying to be naughty or lazy. I would rather describe that his mind gets stuck in moving upward and he doesn't understand to move forward as well. No correct reactions to the leg aids or whip in that state of mind. This is not happening if I warm-up him a little bit of an overtempo, I just don't like to do it that way.
Should I just let this "pony trot"-idea go and warm-up in overtempo?
I hope someone understands what I mean...

Edit. What "pony trot" means to me: warming up in the slow trot, short strides on the long rein

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:56 pm

Hi there and welcome. You might want to search the forum for warm up and pony trot/little trot for some past threads on this topic. A number of posters use the little trot in various ways.

One suggestion I found especially useful is to consider a quick lunge session before you mount to reinforce a more forward, swinging trot from the get go. Then see if you can pick up at that trot when you get on.

Personally, given that I have a horse who starts out tight and with more of a jog trot, I think of "dialing up" the trot gradually during the warm up. Chasing her forward really doesn't work. I have to be a bit sneaky and give her time to loosen up. I also find that if I can get to canter fairly early in the warm up, the motion of the canter releases my mare's back and her trot is much better after some cantering.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby demi » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:27 pm

Another hearty welcome! I am just an amateur so I don’t have any advice on this one, but this is a nice, supportive board and I hope you like it here. I hope you post some pictures!! I personally enjoy all pics, not just the training ones!

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Josette » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:27 pm


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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby blob » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:33 pm

Hi, welcome! A few thoughts:

sometimes doing a bit of forward and back in the warm up can help get a horse that likes to go up to go through instead. Nothing major, but start at whatever trot they ask you for, ask for a bit more for a few strides, ask for a bit less for a few strides, and so on and so forth. As you're doing this, don't worry too much if trot is up instead of forward at times. As the horse goes forward and back they will usually start having to swing their hind legs under.

Another thing to think about is that a warm-up is designed to help a horse get comfortable and loose, warm up muscles, and prepare them for the rest of the work. I think the reason we are often encouraged to 'pony trot' in our warm up because that is the easy thing for a lot of sport horses. That is the trot we get when we don't ask for too much and just let them sort of ease into the ride. But for your horses, that might not be the easy thing or the warm up thing. I'm not saying you should abandon trying to get a slower, more forward swinging trot. But that maybe that's not the right thing for the warm up. That might be something you aim for at the end of the ride instead as a cool down/relaxation. Instead, maybe your warm up should focus on the trot they want to give you and loosening up through that, gradually asking that up trot to get softer and more forward until you're ready to go to work.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Chisamba » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:34 pm

My mare is a standardbred X. I know why you want a slow trot warm up, she wants to sprint around on the forehand, and if I let her she gets more and more heavy and unbalanced.

I like to warm up in a slow trot. Sometimes I have to start on a shorter rein until she is in rhythm, then lengthen the rein and stay in rhythm.

Making a slightly smaller circle if she rushes too much.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:13 pm

Thank you very much for your warm welcome!
Pictures of my boys <3
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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:23 pm

beautiful horses! welcome to the board

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Chancellor » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:12 pm

Wow! They are beautiful. Welcome!

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:56 pm

Beautiful! Welcome :)

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:46 pm

I think I made a mistake about six months ago. He accidently took some steps more upward (kind of passage-steps) and I praised him. We practiced it a few times, but I noticed he was thrilled to offer it too much. So I decided that it is better to continue that exercise later. After that "pony trot" has not worked as it should...
When I'm using leg aids to get quicker hind legs he offers me only those "passage"-steps... Unfortunately he is trying too much upwards at the canter too, If I ask slower warm-up canter.

This is what I call warming up overtempo in our situation... It's not too bad but I like to prefer little bit slower gaits.

https://youtu.be/JpE4v3w5LXc

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby khall » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:41 pm

Nice to have you and your two lovely horses! Chisamba I am sure will be lots of help for you. To me the video shows the horse in the canter losing the regularity of the gait. Not uncommon in a trotter type breed. Hopefully chi samba can give you some ideas on how to help your horse keep the regularity.

As for the passage type trot, we just had a thread on just this subject: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2913

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Flight » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:48 pm

I did the same thing as you, developed a 'passage-y trot'. To get him out of it, I just speed everything up, but more in my seat. If I use my legs more, or tap him with the whip, he tends to give me a bigger 'passage trot'. So, I may go to rising trot and speed up my rise and take him on a straight line and go quicker.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Amado » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:58 am

Wow, your horses are beautiful!!

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:08 am

khall wrote:Nice to have you and your two lovely horses! Chisamba I am sure will be lots of help for you. To me the video shows the horse in the canter losing the regularity of the gait. Not uncommon in a trotter type breed. Hopefully chi samba can give you some ideas on how to help your horse keep the regularity.

As for the passage type trot, we just had a thread on just this subject: http://definitelydressage.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2913


Thanks for your comment. You're right, he is losing regulatity in the canter. After the warm-up, canter gets better because then I can slow it down. But first I have to ride him a bit too much forward (at the expense of regularity as it appears in the video) or I will get horse who's trying collect too much and ends up too much upward bouncing canter looking like a giraffe :roll: The same problem occurs when I'm lunging him.

It may be a good idea to hack out for the next couple of weeks and leg-yield him out of that state of mind each time he gets too much upwards? I have tried in this way in the arena but I find it difficult to leg-yield there as often as the situation requires.

That thread you linked, it really saved my day! It's great to notice that I'm not alone with this problem!

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Chisamba » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:37 am

Kimba did not have a canter when i started her, she would pace, while her canter, once she got it was fast and I allowed it to be a bit quick until she gained strength, I used many transitions to train true rhythm. She likes going forward, so any time she lost rhythm, i would slow her , wait, and then transition up again, if she stayed true, i sat light and let her go forward, if she lost rhythm, i would transition down, wait, work on balance and strength, and then offer the upward transition again. If she stayed true in rhythm in the canter, I would allow her to go forward. Once she understood that the correct rhythm was a requirement of soft forward riding, i worked on balance, and strength with circling. I did find that she gave a more true canter without being over flexed in the neck. It took a while before her hocks and hind were strong enough to sustain a canter with flexion at the poll, i rode her up at the base of the neck but did not ask for her to close the angle of her jaw until i was fairly confident in her rhythm and true canter

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kande50 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:04 pm

Flight wrote:I did the same thing as you, developed a 'passage-y trot'. To get him out of it, I just speed everything up, but more in my seat. If I use my legs more, or tap him with the whip, he tends to give me a bigger 'passage trot'. So, I may go to rising trot and speed up my rise and take him on a straight line and go quicker.


I have to push mine sideways into a leg yield (bent leg yield), which brings him back down and then he'll go forward again.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kande50 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:10 pm

kathel wrote:

It may be a good idea to hack out for the next couple of weeks and leg-yield him out of that state of mind each time he gets too much upwards? I have tried in this way in the arena but I find it difficult to leg-yield there as often as the situation requires.


If the wall/fence is in the way shoulder in will work too, but I have a much harder time getting my horse into shoulder in (vs leg yield) when he starts pronking. As Flight mentioned, the more I push him the more height he tries to give me, so more leg doesn't work.

We're also talking about behind the vertical on the "Another Theory Question" thread, because it looks like you may be deliberately trying to ride your horse poll low and btv, and if you are that may be the problem with the pronking, too? IOW, maybe your horse isn't actually pronking but is just trying to get his neck back up into the position it needs to be in?

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:23 pm

kande50 wrote:
kathel wrote:

It may be a good idea to hack out for the next couple of weeks and leg-yield him out of that state of mind each time he gets too much upwards? I have tried in this way in the arena but I find it difficult to leg-yield there as often as the situation requires.


If the wall/fence is in the way shoulder in will work too, but I have a much harder time getting my horse into shoulder in (vs leg yield) when he starts pronking. As Flight mentioned, the more I push him the more height he tries to give me, so more leg doesn't work.

We're also talking about behind the vertical on the "Another Theory Question" thread, because it looks like you may be deliberately trying to ride your horse poll low and btv, and if you are that may be the problem with the pronking, too? IOW, maybe your horse isn't actually pronking but is just trying to get his neck back up into the position it needs to be in?


Thanks for your comment :)
I think I have to explain more what I mean when I'm talking about he is bouncing upwards in canter. It's not pronking. He just for some reason try collect too much and it looks like canter that horses do in canter pirouette. That is how upward it is... and definitely not forward at all... maybe that makes this problem more clearer. This kind of canter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsRIQv5fTO8
These problems mostly occur during warm-up. I don't want ride him behind the vertical but it's not always so easy to fix some problems. Sometimes you have to choose what is more important at the moment. If he is only bouncing upwards and doesn't react forward at all, I think that forward is more important than optimal frame. My own video was a short clip of warming up, my only demand was that he goes forward and if goes btv I let him do that. I'm not trying to ride him in that position. When warm-up is over, that is no more the frame I allowed to him.
This problem came up when my trainer saw him doing that and said "Praise him!!! He tries to collect his canter!" Well, rest is history... :lol: My dear horse tries to please me and offers that upward-canter almost every time I try warm-up him slowly... If I warm-up him in a little bit of an overtempo there is no problem at all. I just don't want to ride him so much forward (btv and losing regularity in canter, not good combination at all) , there has to be some other solution :(

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kande50 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:02 pm

kathel wrote:My dear horse tries to please me and offers that upward-canter almost every time I try warm-up him slowly... If I warm-up him in a little bit of an overtempo there is no problem at all. I just don't want to ride him so much forward (btv and losing regularity in canter, not good combination at all) , there has to be some other solution :(
.M

If you're not deliberately holding him btv like that then I have no idea. Maybe it would be useful to post a video of the upward canter?

Some video of lateral work in both trot and canter might be a good idea, too. So maybe do your normal warmup and then slow him down to where you'd like to be able to work him and then get some video of the upward trot and canter, and then some circles and lateral work in trot and canter?

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:29 am

Flight wrote:I did the same thing as you, developed a 'passage-y trot'. To get him out of it, I just speed everything up, but more in my seat. If I use my legs more, or tap him with the whip, he tends to give me a bigger 'passage trot'. So, I may go to rising trot and speed up my rise and take him on a straight line and go quicker.


This is exactly what my boy does! I have tried speed up my rise in rising trot, it helps a bit but not enough. Same thing in canter. He offers either too little or too much. Today we have a lesson, the previous lesson was four months ago. He has been in very light exercise because he has become accustomed to being barefoot. I told the coach about these problems, can't wait to hear what she has to say!

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby Flight » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:43 pm

The other thing is to re-train to the whip to go forward. So keep tapping behind your leg (not hard just constant) until they go more forward. You'll get them trying to 'passage' harder and all over the place, but they get the hang of it to go again. Just do it patiently.
Also, because my guy does piaffe, I keep any collected type stuff with the whip up high and to go forward behind my leg.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:29 pm

Flight wrote:The other thing is to re-train to the whip to go forward. So keep tapping behind your leg (not hard just constant) until they go more forward. You'll get them trying to 'passage' harder and all over the place, but they get the hang of it to go again. Just do it patiently.


Thanks for your tips :) My coach gave me the same advice today :D!
The training plan for the next few weeks:
* walk to halt transitions every six strides
* shorter steps in walk (Cody's natural walk is like medium/extended walk)
* no warm-up trot/canter before shorter steps in walk
* re-train to the whip
* change the wider gullet in his saddle
* go hacking, cantering forward

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby ZinniaZ » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:13 pm

Sounds like your coach has great suggestions.

I've ridden and trained dozens of ex trotters and pacers. I've found that their biggest issue is balance and rhythm (not necessarily in that order). I would bet that the smaller trot is just difficult at this point. He most likely does not have the hind end strnegth to do that so transitions will help. I like walk halt walk transitions, tuning up the horses response to my leg. Then I go for walk trot walk. They often need you to show them where their hind legs are and be taught how to spring off of them. His natural gait is going to cover way more ground than a traditional riding horse. It may be that the slower smaller trot will take a year to develop. I would think strength and hind legs. Get out into fields and forests so he can build muscle on uneven errain. Use your transitions. Help him find his hind legs. And if you are at all interested, my boss wrote the book 'Retraining the Harness Racehorse', which has exercises and ideas for this kind of horse. I could give you info about that.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:54 pm

ZinniaZ wrote:Sounds like your coach has great suggestions.

I've ridden and trained dozens of ex trotters and pacers. I've found that their biggest issue is balance and rhythm (not necessarily in that order). I would bet that the smaller trot is just difficult at this point. He most likely does not have the hind end strnegth to do that so transitions will help. I like walk halt walk transitions, tuning up the horses response to my leg. Then I go for walk trot walk. They often need you to show them where their hind legs are and be taught how to spring off of them. His natural gait is going to cover way more ground than a traditional riding horse. It may be that the slower smaller trot will take a year to develop. I would think strength and hind legs. Get out into fields and forests so he can build muscle on uneven errain. Use your transitions. Help him find his hind legs. And if you are at all interested, my boss wrote the book 'Retraining the Harness Racehorse', which has exercises and ideas for this kind of horse. I could give you info about that.


I rode him today and he was much better! After these new exercises I noticed that he reads my leg aids wrong, he thoughts lower leg means more upward... Before this ride I thought it would relate more to the seat.
I tried to use my upper leg more than calf and it works great!
I use much transitions too and countercanter is great for straighness. Normally I hack 1-2 times a week (5-15 km), 2-3 times a week he's schooled. Because we have poor weather conditions in this country since the early winter and early spring, arena is closed for a couple of weeks and then we are only hacking. My boys live 24/7 outdoor, they have free exit to the barn. They run and play every day, so I can give them more day offs.
He's not so green at all but sometimes I break things part too much and he losts his tone... Unfortunately this mental block affects to the quality of his all movements.
Like in this case I made mistake when I praise him upward trot/canter and he takes it little bit too seriously...
Then I have to go back to basics and take some time to get him to the right track again.
He is so kind and willing horse, but his self-esteem has always been very delicate and he lost his confidence easily.
I've been riding many ex-trotters too, but this horse is different than others because of his character. My trainer said yesterday: "Don't think that transition, just do it, he's so sensitive especially down transitions, that he 'reads your mind' before you even realize you are giving any aids". And that's so true, I just wish I had him in that stage some day with up transitions too... maybe just wishful thinking :D

That book sounds very interesting!

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:40 am

blob wrote:Hi, welcome! A few thoughts:

sometimes doing a bit of forward and back in the warm up can help get a horse that likes to go up to go through instead. Nothing major, but start at whatever trot they ask you for, ask for a bit more for a few strides, ask for a bit less for a few strides, and so on and so forth. As you're doing this, don't worry too much if trot is up instead of forward at times. As the horse goes forward and back they will usually start having to swing their hind legs under.

Another thing to think about is that a warm-up is designed to help a horse get comfortable and loose, warm up muscles, and prepare them for the rest of the work. I think the reason we are often encouraged to 'pony trot' in our warm up because that is the easy thing for a lot of sport horses. That is the trot we get when we don't ask for too much and just let them sort of ease into the ride. But for your horses, that might not be the easy thing or the warm up thing. I'm not saying you should abandon trying to get a slower, more forward swinging trot. But that maybe that's not the right thing for the warm up. That might be something you aim for at the end of the ride instead as a cool down/relaxation. Instead, maybe your warm up should focus on the trot they want to give you and loosening up through that, gradually asking that up trot to get softer and more forward until you're ready to go to work.


He has been able to do "pony trot". He was moving in a good, slow rhythm until I was stupid and praised him when he accidently offered more upward steps... That is purely my mistake, he gets confused and now I have to fix this. His mind gets stuck in things that he thinks he is doing great. When I try to tell him: "No, that is not what I want", he freezes up and don't let me guide him out of it. That's is exactly what happened with this upward moving. Now I have to piece things into so small parts that I can get him to understand what I want from him.

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Re: Ex-trotter owners? Horse moving too much upward

Postby kathel » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:52 am

piedmontfields wrote:I also find that if I can get to canter fairly early in the warm up, the motion of the canter releases my mare's back and her trot is much better after some cantering.


That's true, canter releases Cody's back too :) Sometimes I start with canter if he feels sticky.


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