Late changes

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Flight
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Late changes

Postby Flight » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:21 am

So Norsey has started doing late changes, where he is late behind more often than clean so I'm panicking slightly.
The problem is I can't figure out the difference in the preparation for when he does them clean and when not, so I'm not sure why he is now choosing to do them late.
I've tried collecting more, more forward before, out of quarters in etc, but doesn't seem to help. He is also a really fast learner so it can be hard to change his mind on stuff when he thinks it's the right way to do things.
I've stopped trying until I can take him to the next clinic which isn't until February.

I've gone back to making sure his simple changes are good and prompt, his counter canter is balanced.
Any other things I should be trying?

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Re: Late changes

Postby Dresseur » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:08 am

Are the singles clean or are they going too? And unfortunately, it's really hard to help diagnose unless you have video or see it in person. My snap judgement would be to think that the canter quality got too big or strung out somehow, but to be safe, I'd wait for eyes on since late changes are such a pita to fix. But, the checklist that I'd be doing is (these are not all in conjunction, just different things to think of/try):
- try to figure out if the issue is that he's being lazy behind, or if he's not respecting the hand - both can contribute to being late behind.
- try to figure out why or if the canter quality is suffering.
- making sure that there is enough energy - even really shortening the canter if necessary - make the hinds super quick and close.
- making sure that you're holding the shoulders back - usually if the changes start getting late it seems to be that the rider is letting the horse plunge through the hand.
- making sure the horse is waiting for your aid and isn't making the canter bigger and bigger.
- check straightness. If you are applying aids and he’s swinging badly, it could contribute. In that case- do changes against a wall, either from cc to true or true to cc.
- changing the exercise - I like demi-volte to hp to change, or if the horse is going through the hand - doing a figure 8 into the wall or a short diagonal into the wall.

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Re: Late changes

Postby Flight » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:30 am

It's not Ding, it's the big bay one.
Thanks for going through all that dresseur, reading your post I think he might be going through my hand. He was anticipating for a bit there, and he'd do these big leaps - where he'd leap forward and change in front, land and change behind. Now, he doesn't do the leaps, but does the changes in that sort of fashion.

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Re: Late changes

Postby Dresseur » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:36 am

I just wasn’t sure how far along Norsey was with his changes- and yea, based on your description it sounds like you need to hold the shoulder back- basically don’t allow the front to change. So, he may need to sit in the collection and wait- don’t throw him away up front as you execute the change. You can practice going forward and back in the canter- extreme collection to regular canter, without dumping him on his head and without letting him change. Fix the canter to fix the change and school him out of anticipation and falling through the shoulder.

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Re: Late changes

Postby Flight » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:13 am

Thanks Dresseur! I will go away and do this for a while :)

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Re: Late changes

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:59 am

I have heard this taught as "let the front change late--it is easy to fix." Will be interested to read about your progress, Flight!

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Re: Late changes

Postby DJR » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:19 am

Flight wrote:It's not Ding, it's the big bay one.
Thanks for going through all that dresseur, reading your post I think he might be going through my hand. He was anticipating for a bit there, and he'd do these big leaps - where he'd leap forward and change in front, land and change behind. Now, he doesn't do the leaps, but does the changes in that sort of fashion.


That was my thought, too. I wonder if this exercise might help? Pick up a collected canter and pick a short diagonal. At the centerline (or thereabouts), do a canter-halt transition. Then pick up the same lead at collected canter and IMMEDIATELY ask for the change. It helps my big carriage-horse (who gets strung out all too easily) keep the hind end better connected to the front end. He is famous for late changes (for the first year of teaching him changes, he wouldn’t even try to change behind!), and this exercise was one of a few that helped improve the jump through with the hind end.
formerly known as "Deanna" on UDBB -- and prior to that, as "DJD".

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Re: Late changes

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:07 am

That's an interesting exercise DJR. I'm going to have to try that.

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Re: Late changes

Postby DJR » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:42 pm

Moutaineer wrote:That's an interesting exercise DJR. I'm going to have to try that.


It can be canter-walk-halt or canter-halt. The more "sit" the better but it needs to be a "forward" transition. The important part is halt --> canter a stride (maybe 2, but sooner is better than later) --> change.
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Re: Late changes

Postby blob » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:04 pm

MM also has a tendency to be late behind and I've found that it's usually when I've lost control of the shoulders. It's hard to know if this is the same case with Norsey. But MM also started her changes by jumping invisible obstacle in the air--it was a lot of big leaping. Now she doesn't leap so much but it's a similar pattern. When I can move her shoulders easily in the canter, however, I have changes that are not so disjointed and are clean. I'm not always successful, but it seems to be the magic ingredient.

Though, I will also try DJR's exercise and hope halt doesn't cue MM to try to sneak in a quick power nap. :lol: :roll:

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Re: Late changes

Postby Fzybtfrm » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 pm

This is such a timely topic for me! thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I have a pony I am trying to put the changes on going on about 18 months, and unfortunately when I got the soloshot out to record,could easily see that he is changing late behind. He occasionally gets it right, but of course I can't tell when I'm on him, so basically just praise him for every attempt. He is on the lazy side, so I tend to think it's just hard work so he isn't really "into" it.I need to activate those hind legs, so appreciate all your thoughts, and will be trying some of these techniques when weather permits. I guess the Soloshot will be my new riding partner , so will not even work on them unless I set the camera up. We got a 68% at Second level 3 in October, so have got to get those changes dialed in to progress. He can also counter canter all day long, and do excellent canter-halt transitions ( we got 8's on those in that test!)
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Re: Late changes

Postby Flight » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:00 am

I haven't had a chance to ride yet (thanks to having to work and now 40 degree C days), but thanks again for replies. DJR I will try that and report back too.
Fzybtfrm, I find my late changes on the soloshot as well. I'm starting to feel them now which is good. The leaps I can definitely feel :D :o :D

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Re: Late changes

Postby blob » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Flight, we had those exact same leaps when I started teaching MM changes. She doesn't do them anymore, I'm guessing Norsey will stop too once he realizes he doesn't NEED that kind of air time.
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Re: Late changes

Postby Flight » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:03 am

Blob, your girl did impressive leaps too! I LOL'd at my facial expression in mine, wasn't quite expecting it.
Yes, he doesn't do those leaps now thank goodness!

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Re: Late changes

Postby Dresseur » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:03 pm

Lol! Willie did that for a bit- we had to put a stop to it immediately or he would have been the poster child for late changes. For this, we did a figure 8 and only did a change when he was facing a wall. I’ve seen that method used for quite a few leapers with success because the wall backs them off and you don’t have to go to the hand the way you would if you had to stop them in free space. The thing to be careful of is to give enough room so that you don’t change and immediately turn, which can lead to crooked changes, but don’t leave enough room that the horse can still leap forward.

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Re: Late changes

Postby DJR » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am

LOL, I had to contribute to this thread again after this afternoon. I have another tool to improve the jump in the changes ...

This afternoon, I clipped Jet (finally got around to it — he needed to be clipped a month ago!). Then I rode Jet. Jet, in his post-clipping exuberance, proceeded to do his best imitation of a pogo stick for about 3 times around the arena. Once he gave me a couple of more normal canter strides, I thought I’d try a change or two given how much energy was swirling around his hind end (LOL). Talk about JUMPING through the change — ridiculously so!

Then he settled a wee bit more so I asked for a 4-tempi diagonal (we haven’t worked on more than one change in a line very much so this was quite novel). Nailed it, albeit with some pogo-stick impressions added for good measure. Then I tried 3 x 3-tempis and they were even better.

Then I tried half steps. His have never been that good (we only started schooling them recently), but with the energy he had they were the best yet. Twice, they felt like mini-piaffe, in fact! So cool!!

In summary: wait for a -5C crisp day, then clip your horse. That ought to help with late changes!!!
formerly known as "Deanna" on UDBB -- and prior to that, as "DJD".

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Re: Late changes

Postby Flight » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:10 am

DJR wrote:In summary: wait for a -5C crisp day, then clip your horse. That ought to help with late changes!!!


:lol: :lol: I'd probably fall off!!

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Re: Late changes

Postby Fzybtfrm » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:48 pm

An update on my welsh/quarter horse pony and his late changes. I have been using my soloshot diligently (like every time I ride) so I can see whats happening and how I might influence him to NOT change late behind. I have used many of the exercises suggested in this thread and none in particular has helped, except perhaps the figure 8 one where you ask for the change while headed towards the wall at the center of the figure 8.He tends to get anxious, and when he quickens his canter gets all wonky, 4-beat etc. So I canter on until he settles into a 3-beat canter before I ask. I really believe its a matter of repetitions, as he is getting correct changes about 50% of the time now. I am beginning to be able to feel when it is a clean change and can praise him to the skys, and if he lifts his butt in any way he's taking a short step and it's not clean. In that case we just carry on and try again. I am fortunate to have the soloshot, it has been invaluable as I ride alone most of the time and don't do lessons in the winter as the riding is too sporadic because of the weather. I know it took me about two years to get a reliable single change on my Prix St George gelding, so I'm thinking perseverance is the key, and patience until they figure it out. Unless you have one of those uber-talented horses who skips around the field doing changes for the fun of it!

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Re: Late changes

Postby blob » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:09 pm

Fzybtfrm,

I'm also struggling with changes, particularly L to R. For awhile even if the changes weren't perfect, there was definite progress week by week on them. Now we've sort of stalled out and had no real progress for awhile. It's reassuring to hear about your PSG gelding.

My mare is also on the lazy side, so truly nothing is being offered that isn't fully asked for. It's been a tough learning curve!

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Re: Late changes

Postby Flight » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:00 pm

I've stopped trying with my guy and I've got a clinic this weekend, so I'm going to ask for help there. My horse is a quick learner and I'm worried that he's learned it the wrong way, and once he's learned something, it's hard to get him to change his mind. He loves routine and habit, much more than my other horse.
Great that you are having an improvement Fzybtfrm :)
If I have any good breakthroughs on the weekend, I will share!

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Re: Late changes

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:06 am

I've stopped asking until we get the left lead canter better--more upright on that right shoulder and more connected.

Right to left is clean most of the time, left to right, he just struggles to push off behind. The spirit is willing, I feel, but the flesh is decidedly on the weak side! He stands a much better chance with a truly through LL canter.

And now they've made them a double coefficient at third, you can't really wing it any more...


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