Rein Length

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HafDressage
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Rein Length

Postby HafDressage » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:45 pm

Okay so I'm a rider who tends to ride with a relatively short connected rein length most of the time. What I am noticing with my boy, however, is that I really do have fairly different rein lengths in the trot and canter. In the canter I keep my reins about 3 inches shorter than in my trot work and that just seems to work on balance for us. If I use the shorter canter length in the trot I really find that he is stifled and if I use the longer trot length in the canter he very quickly gets strung out. Yesterday, as I was sort of pondering this, I was trying to think back to the other horses I've ridden, which it's been a while (too long) since I last sat on other advanced horses, so I couldn't really recall remembering such a vast difference on other horses.

So...do you guys notice a rein length difference between your collected trot and collected canter work? Just curious if I'm just paying more attention to it now or if it just something specific to my pumpkin horse.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:10 pm

No? I don't change my rein length.....I also don't give rein to fix suppleness, but I am working hard to have relaxed hands and soft elbows.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:11 pm

I meant to notice what I do last night (but ended up just riding through "scary things in the dark"). I *think* that I, too, shorten my reins a bit in collected canter (or else I lose connection). My mare does have a remarkably short neck and is quite uphill...that might be part of it.

I'll report back after paying attention! :lol:

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:17 pm

I try not to change my rein length. But, on some horses that want to suck back in a particular gait or carry themselves differently, I change my rein length to find them and then keep trying to lengthen the neck so that the rein length stays consistent between gaits.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby blob » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:21 pm

In greener horses, I definitely adjust my rein length to what is needed for correct contact. Some horses need more neck in the canter, others in the trot. And at that stage, I want to maintain the right 'feel', rather than tell them to stay in a certain place.

I can't say for sure about past horses, but with my mare, my rein length is the same at both collected trot and collected canter, but she is also very uncomplicated in the bridle (she saves her complications for elsewhere :lol: ).

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:54 pm

I make them carry the neck longer and don't want a short neck.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:59 pm

OK, I paid attention last night (although we were excited by a large brush fire---part of clearing out woods beyond the arena. Ah, the joys of winter night riding.).

I seem to do what Dresseur describes. If I can't find my mare in collected canter, I shorten the rein a little to find her and then work on getting to the desired length. There are times when it is no problem to have the same rein length in trot and canter (working or collected).

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:48 pm

I suspect this (once again) may be a function of type of horse that you ride. People riding horses that tend to curl may subconsciously push out the neck in the canter to fill the rein. People riding the big long horses will notice that the canter, because of its uphill beat, does put the horse in a higher posture through the chest sling and therefore neck relative to the trot (assuming that both gaits are at "equal" levels of collection).

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Josette » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:17 pm

I did not want to derail the current training topic thread so added my comments here. The mention of rein length and connection is a common challenge for us all. I stumbled upon this article and it looked familiar as maybe someone posted it before. (It is not that old of a publication.) If you scroll down to the chestnut horse photos you can view over the years how his training evolved. I feel sadness as they represent a training technique that I do not want to watch in a show ring. My flame suit is on - I fall outside the bell curve as a dressage rider as I have NO desire to ride or train a horse like that. My intent is not too start flaming messages here but a discussion of awareness to look at dressage training. I have come to the conclusion that I may be a faux dressage rider with my riding goals. Besides my riding is limited now between rehabbing my guy (again) and the winter weather - I don't even know what my future riding will be. :(

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2018/ ... re-to-now/

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:26 pm

I think it depends on the horse.

And Josette, regarding the article, which I really only glanced at, I don't think it would make you a "Faux Dressage" to not strive to have your horse out behind (which what stood out to me in that last photo.)

To me and I think everyone here, the hind end is a priority.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:21 pm

Josette--I don't think the pictures are useful in that article. It's a moment in time. I don't know the horse or rider, so you really need to look overall at how the horse has developed. For example, it is very easy to see that almost every single one of Isabel Werth's horses time and again drop their backs and do what the Germans call "the bathtub" in piaffe/passage.

As for rein length, I would say on all three of mine I tend to ride slightly shorter rein in the canter just because of the nature of the gait. I work a lot on getting them forward and up into the rein, which is a lot easier to do in the canter, and the more up they are, the shorter the rein.

I have also have had to self correct myself over the last few years. I always have ridden with apparently too long reins. And with my bad back, for some reason, this makes me tend to lean forward and make everything worse. The shorter the reins, the more I can sit up straight correctly, and it's easier. I don't know why. I have notice one of my sponsors (leasors) who is taller with the same overly curved back like mine tends to do the same thing. And since she rides Mom, who is 22 and likes to be on the forehand if you let her, it's super important to ride her up from behind--she has a super long neck like Quinn, but the shorter and more up you ride her, the lighter she is.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Josette » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:47 pm

Tanga - that is very reasonable what you are describing as there are so many factors involved. I guess I got distracted with those photos as I like the early ones but was turned off by the last one - which is a moment in time and can be deceiving.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:50 pm

this is an older thread...I find I keep my reins the same length. I may change my elbows but I don't phyisically change unless its actually a free walk.
I found I held the reins better when I switched to rubber eventing reins. They didn't slip though my hands as much, even with no handstops. My reins stopped getting too long. I tend to still have my hands too far back, but its getting easier.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby demi » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:45 am

Thanks for bringing this thread back, Josette. I have been over-worrying over rein length for a while lately but I am now beginning to think that a lot of it has to do with the rider’s own conformation. One of the things I find very interesting about Kurt Albrecht’s book “Principles of Dressage” is that he has very few pictures for the following reason: “ I know from experience that illustrations are often taken as models to which all must conform; the fact is ignored that no two humans can be exactly alike and enjoy the same advantages of conformation.”

Not to mention no two horses are alike, especially horses that aren’t purposely bred to do dressage.

I think the pictures in the referenced article, even tho they are only a moment in time, can still give an indication of what is going on. We can look and think about it.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:47 pm

Oof, not a fan of the photos as representatives of connection. For several reasons:
- Downbeat of the canter is a terrible point in time to make any comments about how the hind legs are or are not under the horse-- they're about to take a step forward!
- The two non-rollkur dressage photos are both from passage tours (Verdades and the "German System" horse). Passage is the ultimate in collection + suspension. Horses passaging on their own on windy/cold days, or when they meet a new pasture mate across the fence, rarely are supple over the topline either. It's a tough thing to do! Choosing only passage photos makes me wonder about the agenda of the author.
- The photos of "good" work are basically TL/1st. The young horse has lovely forward gaits and is ridden well, which is all good. But the real test of connection is collection. Can you change the horse's natural balance and still maintain suppleness and connection? If so, you're in a good place. If not... well, welcome to the real world.

On the topic of rein length:
In my own riding, when my reins get long it's because I'm doing too little with my core. Keep them short and with elbows slightly in front of me, and I have to actually engage my core to keep the balance where I want it. Let them long and let my elbows drift backwards, and I can do more of the riding off of my shoulder/back muscles (which is wrong, but is easier for me). That's the trap I fall in.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby StraightForward » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:38 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:On the topic of rein length:
In my own riding, when my reins get long it's because I'm doing too little with my core. Keep them short and with elbows slightly in front of me, and I have to actually engage my core to keep the balance where I want it. Let them long and let my elbows drift backwards, and I can do more of the riding off of my shoulder/back muscles (which is wrong, but is easier for me). That's the trap I fall in.


Yes to this! Riding a slightly downhill quarter horse, keeping the reins at an appropriate length and keeping my core engaged is super important if I want to have any hope of changing her longitudinal balance. I have to continually think of riding a little more of the horse out in front of me and raising the withers up. If the reins get long, she will just fall on her face and the legs go out the back. For me it is all about maintaining the connection through my low back to have an effective seat, but then, she is not a horse that curls BTV easily. I video most of my lessons and sometimes worry that my instructor(s) have gotten me on too short of a rein, but when I review the video, very little to zero time is spent BTV.

Like so many things, there is a sweet spot between too much and not enough, but at least with a horse like mine, erring with the too long reins means we would not be moving towards collection, and improvement of the gaits.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:39 pm

Lipsmackerpony88 wrote:I think it depends on the horse.

And Josette, regarding the article, which I really only glanced at, I don't think it would make you a "Faux Dressage" to not strive to have your horse out behind (which what stood out to me in that last photo.)

To me and I think everyone here, the hind end is a priority.


that article wasn't very good to be honest. I didn't tell us much.

look the whole horse, yes. The rein length is really not as important as how the contact feels. Simple, yes but riding is feeling. The same rein length can be both a + or - to the horse. I think of this like tempo- I found out the home base idea of what beats per min I need for the work just as I found what my rein length should be for the work. But this needs to then develop to how to feel good contact.
As I said, if the reins keep getting long then I would say find a new style. For me it was rubber.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:25 pm

@Ryeissa, yeah from my quick glance, it didn't strike me as an article worth my time. Usually when I see a lot of photos that are supposed to to stir up some emotions or shock, I skip it.

Totally agree that the most important is how it all feels. I just don't think anyone should judge what "real" dressage is or isn't from some photos in an article. One moment in time and one rider never represents all.

I always ride in rubber too. I haven't used leather in years!

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Re: Rein Length

Postby blob » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:03 pm

That article was posted somewhere on Facebook and someone shared videos of that chestnut. And after watching the videos I really thought that picture was unfair. That still that's meant to show the horse having gone down hill is from the passage and not from collected or extended trot work. Yes, it's true the horse does not have a great passage--he tends to hollow to get suspension. But I don't think it's at all fair to compare one still of passage. The video showed that the horse goes quite nicely through most of his test and there were many many more flattering stills that could have been taken. There are unflattering parts of every stride and it seemed like an unfair picture

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ponichiwa » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:55 pm

StraightForward wrote:
Ponichiwa wrote:On the topic of rein length:
In my own riding, when my reins get long it's because I'm doing too little with my core. Keep them short and with elbows slightly in front of me, and I have to actually engage my core to keep the balance where I want it. Let them long and let my elbows drift backwards, and I can do more of the riding off of my shoulder/back muscles (which is wrong, but is easier for me). That's the trap I fall in.


Yes to this! Riding a slightly downhill quarter horse, keeping the reins at an appropriate length and keeping my core engaged is super important if I want to have any hope of changing her longitudinal balance. I have to continually think of riding a little more of the horse out in front of me and raising the withers up. If the reins get long, she will just fall on her face and the legs go out the back. For me it is all about maintaining the connection through my low back to have an effective seat, but then, she is not a horse that curls BTV easily. I video most of my lessons and sometimes worry that my instructor(s) have gotten me on too short of a rein, but when I review the video, very little to zero time is spent BTV.

Like so many things, there is a sweet spot between too much and not enough, but at least with a horse like mine, erring with the too long reins means we would not be moving towards collection, and improvement of the gaits.


I think you and I are riding very similar horses right now (Annabelle?)-- Queso is definitely not an uphill WB build and while he does move with significant overstride, just about the last thing that locks into place is where his head goes. Just not spending any time BTV. The short reins reminders for me are to sit my butt down in the saddle, pull my upper body back, and actually use my core (and lo and behold, he comes rounder and more together almost if by magic).

And then we can toodle around on a longer rein (or on the buckle) when he's done some good compressed work so he doesn't feel overly tortured.

blob wrote:That article was posted somewhere on Facebook and someone shared videos of that chestnut. And after watching the videos I really thought that picture was unfair. That still that's meant to show the horse having gone down hill is from the passage and not from collected or extended trot work. Yes, it's true the horse does not have a great passage--he tends to hollow to get suspension. But I don't think it's at all fair to compare one still of passage. The video showed that the horse goes quite nicely through most of his test and there were many many more flattering stills that could have been taken. There are unflattering parts of every stride and it seemed like an unfair picture


Agreed. The images chosen for this article are geared more for drumming up emotion ("look how bad modern riders are!"-- nevermind that Rio was 2 years prior to the article and the Gal/Anky pictures are 8-12 yrs older than that) than for being instructive. Makes me wonder if the author and/or photo selector were former connections of the chestnut horse looking for a social media vengeance (2 years later??).

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:53 pm

So here are the two pics, I removed them from the training thread because they are more interesting here. I captured 2 moments on Saiph. one shows all the engaged energy I would like in collection but Saiph leaned into the contact and somewhat dropped her poll. I am not unhappy with the.moment even thought I expect criticism about the contact. the point being if you add leg and the horses leans, sometimes if you just sit still you allow the horse to lighten to you and develop balance and carriage, or slightly.lift the hands as I am doing to take the weight off the bars and allows the horse to learn .
it is a moment.no one should be embarrassed about having when riding. it is a ridiculous expectation to think there will never be a moment of heaviness.
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collection needing balance
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in the second moment I chose to share, I much prefer the balance, I like the carriage, but clearly Saiph does not have the degree of engagement or collection shown in the first.
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collection needing balance
20201229_181722_240x343.jpg (63.33 KiB) Viewed 11602 times
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balance needing collection
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Re: Rein Length

Postby Chisamba » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:54 pm

sorry I am not sure how the picture came up twice

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:28 pm

Both lovely photos Chisamba.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Josette » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:49 pm

Ditto - Lovely photos and thanks for posting them.

I realize now that article was a poor choice as I got taken in with the pics as was intended by the author. A photo moment in time is critical and hard to capture good vs not. Likewise, all the factors of rider and horse conformation / breed vs training level are all very complex details to consider too.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby demi » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:22 pm

Very interesting Chisamba. It will be enjoyable and educational to watch your progress with her.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby blob » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:04 pm

It's interesting, Chisamba, because while I Siaph's frame is clearly different in the two pictures, I don't know that your rein length is actually that different. Or rather, I should say while it appears it is slighly shorter in the first picture, your arms are also more forward. In the second picture your hands are sitting further back. So I think in both the overall AMOUNT of rein Siaph has to fill is more or less the same? To me, what's probably making more of a difference to what Siaph feels is that in the first picture your hands are higher than in the second.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby khall » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:55 pm

It is interesting chisamba how Saiph reacted. Leaning know that well! The lifting I found very helpful to keep Rip up and open. More from behind just made him stronger in the front until I figured out to lift.

I know ultimately we want to be able to hold the horse with the seat in piaffe but it takes time and strength to get there.

Piaffe is such a great strength training tool.


I’ve been reminded before about not riding with too long of reins. It is a fine line though. Not so short you compress the neck but short enough that they change their balance when appropriate

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:13 am

blob wrote:It's interesting, Chisamba, because while I Siaph's frame is clearly different in the two pictures, I don't know that your rein length is actually that different. Or rather, I should say while it appears it is slighly shorter in the first picture, your arms are also more forward. In the second picture your hands are sitting further back. So I think in both the overall AMOUNT of rein Siaph has to fill is more or less the same? To me, what's probably making more of a difference to what Siaph feels is that in the first picture your hands are higher than in the second.


I actually wondered if anyone would be sharp enough to notice. you are correct, I didn't change the rein length, the horse is just filling them differently
Last edited by Chisamba on Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:15 am

Chisamba I see that the reins are the same length. What I also see is that they are because in the first picture you are raising your hands. I do that all of the time and have been working really hard and trying to ride with shorter reins, which actually makes the horse much lighter, even though none of that makes sense logically, to me anyway.

When my horses get up like in the first photo, where I much prefer her frame, and they get heavy on the contact, I have had to really work on shortening my rein, which seems to make it so much easy for them to self carry. It's so much easier to get it all that way IF I can make myself shorten them. I notice when I do the same thing with longer reins and pull up, everything is harder, and I get into my bad habit of leaning forward.

Not to criticize you (!) but in both of those pictures I think the correction would be a shorter rein. In the first it would allow you to lower your hands and not hold her up, and in the second your hands could go forward more so you can sit more securely and ride her up into them from your seat more easily.

Yes, I see what you were saying about deliberately raising the hands so she carries, but I have found, personally, that causes them to drop more and get heavy. The lighten and carry more when I shorten the reins. Maybe that's just me.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:22 am

Tanga, I think sitting still with steady hands and a shorter rein would indeed ask Saiph to meet the contact, rebalance and lighten herself while being engaged. that was my lesson to myself watching the video. I plan to try it tomorrow when I ride but will probably fall back on habits lol

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:32 am

Chisamba wrote:Tanga, I think sitting still with steady hands and a shorter rein would indeed ask Saiph to meet the contact, rebalance and lighten herself while being engaged. that was my lesson to myself watching the video. I plan to try it tomorrow when I ride but will probably fall back on habits lol


Sounds like we're a lot alike! I thought my hands were fine, too, until the Pivo. I do a lot of yelling at myself in the video. WHY are my hand there. WHERE am I looking? The benefits of having a mirror or someone to get after you to try to stop these habits sure makes things easier!

The weird thing for me is that as soon as I shorten my reins, everything becomes easier for me and the horses. So WHY do I keep letting them get long? I can't answer myself.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:08 pm

Tanga wrote:The weird thing for me is that as soon as I shorten my reins, everything becomes easier for me and the horses. So WHY do I keep letting them get long? I can't answer myself.


are they slipping? Do you need a different combo of gloves and rein style?

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:44 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Tanga wrote:The weird thing for me is that as soon as I shorten my reins, everything becomes easier for me and the horses. So WHY do I keep letting them get long? I can't answer myself.


are they slipping? Do you need a different combo of gloves and rein style?


No. It's not about slipping. It's about where I want the reins, even though it is harder and more uncomfortable for me.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:24 pm

Tanga wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:
Tanga wrote:The weird thing for me is that as soon as I shorten my reins, everything becomes easier for me and the horses. So WHY do I keep letting them get long? I can't answer myself.


are they slipping? Do you need a different combo of gloves and rein style?


No. It's not about slipping. It's about where I want the reins, even though it is harder and more uncomfortable for me.


so you are inadvertently letting them get long? I'm not sure I am understanding. Is the horse pulling them out of your hands or do you make them longer?
I wonder if you might be compensating for something else going on.....? You seem to be quite accomplished, so I am not sure but just throwing that out there. For me I had to learn to fill the lower part of my back to support so I could more easily keep my hands in front of me. I'm just curious if its a primary or secondary thing. Good discussion!

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Re: Rein Length

Postby blob » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:05 pm

Sounds like Tanga is saying that even though it's easier to ride with short reins, she wants her horses to be able to do the work and fill up a longer rein.


I've found that the frame I want requires a shorter frame. With a shorter rein--my horses meet the contact and are up and out in it. In a longer rein, they meet the contact by stretching down into the the rein and getting too low in the poll. MM is an expert at slowly taking little bits of rein until suddenly they're a mile long.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:43 am

Well, I don't know if I have an answer. I would say I have always ridden on a much longer and looser rein than most people, feeling like the horse should carry. In the last few years with the disaster of Lilo telling me to shorten them a LOT, hang on, and kick them forward, I have figured out I need a lot shorter rein and them up a lot more.


For example, I can ride most movements any which way. All three of my horses are great at pirouettes. I can let them carry their head and neck where they want and have a lot longer neck like Isabel Werth, and then I get nailed, or not a great score, for something. If I shorten the reins and keep the lightness, which is fairly easy, the look is a lot more up and light. Using the Pivo and getting more feedback has helped me realize better (even though I know as a judge) it's all about how it looks, not reality. I can easily do 8 step pirouettes, which are much more correct and harder, but I don't get great scores. If I do 6 step pirouettes that are bigger and look more exciting, but are easier to ride and for the horses, I get better scores. So, the carriage is like that. It's actually easier for me to ride them more up, but it feels more basically correct for me to do other things.

So, it's not about them taking the reins out of my hand or me not being able to hold them. It's probably more a habit of me allowing them on a longer rein.

I think it also is my conformation. I have a very curved lower back and rode in my Wintec Pro through GP on a bunch of different horses for 25 years. And I always tipped forward a little, and more recently would get the comments about it. When I FINALLY figured out the saddle was not good for me and I was leaning forward to relieve the back pain, which probably got more pronounced as I got older, I sat up straighter. I also naturally overarch my back, so it's a long process of getting it "straighter" by tucking my butt under, but not hunching my shoulders when I do that. It's a weird thing of tipping forward with longer reins. Even though it makes no sense, sitting up more is much easier with shorter reins, but I revert back to longer and tipping forward. Maybe, again, it's conformation. I have very long legs, but a comparatively short torso, and I have no clue about my arms,

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:12 pm

Tanga, is there a story behind "disaster of Lilo telling me to shorten them a LOT, hang on, and kick them forward?" Lol I'm intrigued since I'm new here!

I also always want to ride with too long of a rein. Part of it is I think the trunk of my arms is shorter so I compensate for my conformation too.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:20 pm

Tanga wrote:Well, I don't know if I have an answer. I would say I have always ridden on a much longer and looser rein than most people, feeling like the horse should carry. In the last few years with the disaster of Lilo telling me to shorten them a LOT, hang on, and kick them forward, I have figured out I need a lot shorter rein and them up a lot more.


For example, I can ride most movements any which way. All three of my horses are great at pirouettes. I can let them carry their head and neck where they want and have a lot longer neck like Isabel Werth, and then I get nailed, or not a great score, for something. If I shorten the reins and keep the lightness, which is fairly easy, the look is a lot more up and light. Using the Pivo and getting more feedback has helped me realize better (even though I know as a judge) it's all about how it looks, not reality. I can easily do 8 step pirouettes, which are much more correct and harder, but I don't get great scores. If I do 6 step pirouettes that are bigger and look more exciting, but are easier to ride and for the horses, I get better scores. So, the carriage is like that. It's actually easier for me to ride them more up, but it feels more basically correct for me to do other things.

So, it's not about them taking the reins out of my hand or me not being able to hold them. It's probably more a habit of me allowing them on a longer rein.

I think it also is my conformation. I have a very curved lower back and rode in my Wintec Pro through GP on a bunch of different horses for 25 years. And I always tipped forward a little, and more recently would get the comments about it. When I FINALLY figured out the saddle was not good for me and I was leaning forward to relieve the back pain, which probably got more pronounced as I got older, I sat up straighter. I also naturally overarch my back, so it's a long process of getting it "straighter" by tucking my butt under, but not hunching my shoulders when I do that. It's a weird thing of tipping forward with longer reins. Even though it makes no sense, sitting up more is much easier with shorter reins, but I revert back to longer and tipping forward. Maybe, again, it's conformation. I have very long legs, but a comparatively short torso, and I have no clue about my arms,


yeah, this matches what I said about having to support my lumbars as I stopped tipping forward too. My rein problem fixed itself. I have a long torso so this is a constant battle. I would keep thinking about what else you can do in your body that needs support/tone to help. I have been musing over the thoughts that arm and leg issues are secondary issues. I have found it is always something in my hips/pelvis/abs/sternum causing my legs and arms to go all over. JMHO

If the reins are short and the horse reacts there is something not working. How are your elbows? Kick through never worked for me LOL. It will show up as crookedness or bucking. At least for me LOL

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:21 pm

Lipsmacker I told the Lilo story in here awhile back. I got in the AA clinic with her a little over a year ago. I used to ride with her once in awhile a long time ago. She has changed. Her whole theme was shorten the reins and hold on TIGHT and go WAY more forward. The basic idea is OK, but I took Quinn with me. Quinn gets very tight when you get tight, and the more you pull, the more she does. Lilo had me shorten up the reins like 10 inches and just push her to go forward. At least Quinn didn't bolt like she can. She dropped her head to the ground and pawed, which is her "I can't handle this" move before she bolts. When Lilo told me to whack her and make her go forward, I had to tell her I was afraid and didn't want to get hurt. When I came home and did the same thing with Quilla, she shutdown, too. That started me on the road to I need them both more up, but I need to do it in a completely different way, NOT pulling. It has to be about them being strong enough to come up and carry in a much more light way.

Ryeissa--Like I said, a lot of my problems started getting fixed when I got a saddle that fits. The rest of it is me reworking my whole body and retraining it. Because I have sort of retired, I think, and the best instructor ever from 24 Hour Fitness is doing 7 Zoom classes a week. I usually do an hour 3/4 times a week. All of that is really helping me get more fit and even, as she always is pushing things in a new way. That and constantly stretching, massages, etc. Basically I am working on strengthening, conditioning and stretching, just like I insist the horses do.

I'm not sure what you mean by "If the reins are short and the horse reacts there is something not working." I said over and over the horses are much better with shorter reins. It's more me being in the habit of riding shorter, and maybe some of my physical issues where I want to drop them. I think I am improving a lot. You've seen the Pivo, and when I see myself, I can self correct. I also have someone at the barn who I can get feedback from once in awhile, and Chelsey has been coming about once a month or so. I'm always asking her if there is something I can work on in my position to improve things and making her look at me for that. We've kind of gotten into a rhythm where I say this is what I think the problem is, she looks at it, and we discuss ideas about what I can do to. That has really helped with the half passes I was getting all twisted up in.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:48 am

@Tanga thanks for the retelling! I'm bummed to hear that she changed her methods :( I agree that wouldn't work for many types!

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Re: Rein Length

Postby StraightForward » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:57 am

That story surprises me. I lesson with someone who is working with her currently, and clinic with another one of her proteges and have not had that experience. Wonder if it was just a one-off pushing you a certain way given the level you're already riding? I definitely wouldn't continue to ride with someone who was going too far into crank and spank territory.
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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:26 pm

[quote="Tanga"]


I'm not sure what you mean by "If the reins are short and the horse reacts there is something not working." I said over and over the horses are much better with shorter reins. [quote]


The reins are restrictive. the horse is being blocked. Short reins should still have the elasticity of the stretching trot. I have been in so many lessons where the trainers say "shorten the reins" and lack the context for how/what/etc the horse and rider don't have the right context for short resins so people think its the short reins but its the foundation. Yes, there is an adjustment to new things but it shouldn't be that different if the horse is in to the reins, straight, etc. It has to make sense. If the horse throws a fit or starts to brace something is wrong.

Sounds like you have a handle on it, so I hope things start to come together.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:14 pm

AS for Lilo, I know she knows what she is talking about. And I get that in clinics they sort of get a theme and go with it. She wasn't doing it with just me--it was everyone for two days. We were talking about it. I get the concept. The idea is that the horse need to be up and carry more, so in my own way, I got it. It was just the way she had people do it was to just hold them and push them until they got there, not talk about how they need to be conditioned to get there. All of the horses did look better, but there were a couple of others who were like Quinn who did not react well to the pressure. She did back off when I told her I was scared and she was going to blow and switched to another tactic. I think she was more getting at me. (In a Q and Q session I had mentioned that I think the USDF changing the freestyle score qualifying rule as an emergency change was ridiculous, and she spent a half hour lecturing that 3% more is doable on any horse and anyone should be able to do it. When I finally got a word in and said that was doable at the lower levels and even 4th, but FEI and GP, that was a massive jump. She said, oh, yeah. The USDF later rescinded the FEI 63% requirement.)

Ryeissa --I know the reins CAN be restrictive, at any length. I never said anything about blocking them or being tight. When Lilo asked me to just hold them tight and push, that was bad. What I have evolved into is asking more from the horses and teaching them and me to come up and lighter into a shorter rein. We both are learning. They are getting stronger and learning the coolness of being so balanced and up, and I am getting out of the habit of letting the reins be longer. It's getting there.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:31 pm

Tanga wrote:AS for Lilo, I know she knows what she is talking about. And I get that in clinics they sort of get a theme and go with it. She wasn't doing it with just me--it was everyone for two days. We were talking about it. I get the concept. The idea is that the horse need to be up and carry more, so in my own way, I got it. It was just the way she had people do it was to just hold them and push them until they got there, not talk about how they need to be conditioned to get there. All of the horses did look better, but there were a couple of others who were like Quinn who did not react well to the pressure. She did back off when I told her I was scared and she was going to blow and switched to another tactic. I think she was more getting at me. (In a Q and Q session I had mentioned that I think the USDF changing the freestyle score qualifying rule as an emergency change was ridiculous, and she spent a half hour lecturing that 3% more is doable on any horse and anyone should be able to do it. When I finally got a word in and said that was doable at the lower levels and even 4th, but FEI and GP, that was a massive jump. She said, oh, yeah. The USDF later rescinded the FEI 63% requirement.)

Ryeissa --I know the reins CAN be restrictive, at any length. I never said anything about blocking them or being tight. When Lilo asked me to just hold them tight and push, that was bad. What I have evolved into is asking more from the horses and teaching them and me to come up and lighter into a shorter rein. We both are learning. They are getting stronger and learning the coolness of being so balanced and up, and I am getting out of the habit of letting the reins be longer. It's getting there.


Sure, Maybe I was misundsertanding what you were getting at. Glad you are with a teacher that can really help.
yeah- for me noting when the sterumn of the horse was dropping was key. I seemed to be feeling that better than I could feel other aspects of collection. My horse is short backed so sometimes it's hard to feel where the back legs are- he is quite a different style than your WB.
Anne Gribbons wrote an article in the mid 90s that really impacted me- ride the neck long on short contact. See if you can find a copy- I think this is a concept that would help us all. It has stayed with me. I also do massage professionally so I see a lot of horses with neck soreness. Personally, to me this means having as much space in the vertebrae of the horse as possilble so they are not compressed. My horse holds tension in his neck so I can't get away with much here

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Re: Rein Length

Postby demi » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:16 pm

Tanga wrote:...

Ryeissa --I know the reins CAN be restrictive, at any length. I never said anything about blocking them or being tight. When Lilo asked me to just hold them tight and push, that was bad. What I have evolved into is asking more from the horses and teaching them and me to come up and lighter into a shorter rein. We both are learning. They are getting stronger and learning the coolness of being so balanced and up, and I am getting out of the habit of letting the reins be longer. It's getting there.


I think this is very well said. Even at my low level I feel as though I am doing exactly what Tanga describes. I am annoyed with trainers that just say “shorten the reins by a mile” (and I appreciate that you touched on this Ryeissa) and don’t consider that the horse isn’t ready. They have to learn to go on shorter reins. I truly respect my current trainer and when she started harping on me to SHORTEN THE REINS!!, I took her at her word and I went a little overboard. For about the last 8 months I’ve been riding with my reins too short. Fortunately, I compromised somewhat and I don’t think I did any irreversible damage. Now I am easing my horse into shorter reins as we both learn. I don’t know if I can go back to lessons until I get this I my own.

Some of the things that made me realize exactly what Tanga describes in the above quote, were the following:

1.)Having my T-3 test scored by a reputable USEF judge and getting her comments about head tilting and curling. These are problems that only started when I shortened my reins before “we” were ready. And i say “we” because a better rider can shorten reins skillfully on a horse that isn’t quite ready.

2.) Watching my own videos after almost every ride and noticing tension and stiffness in my own body that made my hands bounce.

3.) watching recent vids of SF and Annabelle and seeing how quiet her hands are, and also reading these threads and getting a sense of what others are doing.

4.) re-reading some of the older masters, especially Kurt Albrecht’s “Principles of Dressage”.

(And just a note: I use elipses when quoting so people understand that I’m taking it out of a bigger piece.)

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:36 pm

demi wrote:
Tanga wrote:...

Ryeissa --I know the reins CAN be restrictive, at any length. I never said anything about blocking them or being tight. When Lilo asked me to just hold them tight and push, that was bad. What I have evolved into is asking more from the horses and teaching them and me to come up and lighter into a shorter rein. We both are learning. They are getting stronger and learning the coolness of being so balanced and up, and I am getting out of the habit of letting the reins be longer. It's getting there.


I think this is very well said. Even at my low level I feel as though I am doing exactly what Tanga describes. I am annoyed with trainers that just say “shorten the reins by a mile” (and I appreciate that you touched on this Ryeissa) and don’t consider that the horse isn’t ready. They have to learn to go on shorter reins. I truly respect my current trainer and when she started harping on me to SHORTEN THE REINS!!, I took her at her word and I went a little overboard. For about the last 8 months I’ve been riding with my reins too short. Fortunately, I compromised somewhat and I don’t think I did any irreversible damage. Now I am easing my horse into shorter reins as we both learn. I don’t know if I can go back to lessons until I get this I my own.

Some of the things that made me realize exactly what Tanga describes in the above quote, were the following:

1.)Having my T-3 test scored by a reputable USEF judge and getting her comments about head tilting and curling. These are problems that only started when I shortened my reins before “we” were ready. And i say “we” because a better rider can shorten reins skillfully on a horse that isn’t quite ready.

2.) Watching my own videos after almost every ride and noticing tension and stiffness in my own body that made my hands bounce.

3.) watching recent vids of SF and Annabelle and seeing how quiet her hands are, and also reading these threads and getting a sense of what others are doing.

4.) re-reading some of the older masters, especially Kurt Albrecht’s “Principles of Dressage”.

(And just a note: I use elipses when quoting so people understand that I’m taking it out of a bigger piece.)


yeah, my point with shorten the reins is the same- there is little explanation for the rider the framework- so it becomes push and kick through. The reins are a death grip and both horse/rider are not happy. Of course we need to get to short reins-- its not the end goal I have a problem with its how trainers fail to set a proper foundation and teach correctly. If the horse braces and gets worse on short reins there is something missing in the horse/rider or both. Sure, there are moments of bracing and loss of balance but it should not suddenly become a pissing match. I have had trainers to do this to me and it really was terrible.

A slight tangent for me is where do I hold the reins when they are short? How are my elbows working? hint- one thing I did when I shortened the reins was my elbows STOPPED WORKING. I got a lovely stretch that scored a 9. My horse is very very educated. Why did it go to shit? my elbows :roll: I also would loose elasticity IN THE MOMENT I asked for compression of the stride so adding energy also fixed this. This is why it's not just about reins. How educated is the horse about the connection..... Maybe this is obvious but I've found many of my former teachers didn't clue into this.

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Chisamba » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:09 pm

So I tried to focus on keeping my hands down and the reins short enough and ride back to front. I alternated between collection and flowing more forward.
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in think it went fairly well
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Re: Rein Length

Postby demi » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:17 pm

Very nice, Chisamba!!

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Tanga » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:56 am

I like it, Chisamba. I do a lot of that, too. A Mette Rosencrantz video reminded me, oh yeah, warm up forward and back forward and back until the horse is on the aids. It does work well with working on the rein issue, too!

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Re: Rein Length

Postby Flight » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 am

Those pics are nice Chisamba :)


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