He/She Has Got Your Number

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He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:52 pm

I hate that comment. My good friend has said that to me a number of times, and each time I have to bite my tongue so as not to argue. What does that comment even mean to you? I think it means the horse recognizes that the rider is scared or incapable and the horse is taking advantage. So to me, the comment is an insult which is why it ticks me off.

I have issues with an anxious, insecure horse. I believe this horse is going to be anxious and tense no matter if a bnt is riding her. Each time I speak with my friend on the phone, I make the mistake of saying how crappy my ride was, and then I get "she has your number" or "she's trying to get out of work". My horse is not trying to get out of work. She will do or try to do whatever it is I ask, but when she sees something she finds scary (which is intermittent through the whole ride), then she reacts and everything good disappears. But, as soon as past the scary thing, everything improves again. A horse that was trying to get out of work, would be trying to get out of work the whole ride. That's my opinion.

Hot4Spot's horse is a good example of a horse that is reactive and it has nothing to do with the skill of his rider/handler.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Dresseur » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:03 pm

I think that this is a good topic! I agree... when people say that the horse has your number, it's one of two things...either they are blaming the horse or they are saying the rider isn't good enough to handle the issue. Like you said, horses have different personalities - some are anxious and insecure, some are bold, some are more mischievous.

That being said, I think that there are those horses that are on the lazy side, and when pressed - start to "find things" to redirect the rider's attention. Maybe the ride starts out great, and the rider asks for a bit more, and the horse suddenly finds the one corner to have aliens... next thing you know, with it's regular rider, the horse doesn't have to go into that corner and is working a bit less hard because the rider is now riding defensively. Perhaps with a trainer, the horse would look once, get reprimanded and go along their merry way. That to me is different than a horse that is reactive as a baseline. I've also met horses that in the beginning are a bit unfocused and "look" for things - as the work gets harder, the horse gets more and more focused. Different skills will bring out or mask different things in horses, and we have to allow the horse to have their personality and voice as long as it's not dangerous to itself or the rider. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:18 pm

Dresseur wrote:That being said, I think that there are those horses that are on the lazy side, and when pressed - start to "find things" to redirect the rider's attention. Maybe the ride starts out great, and the rider asks for a bit more, and the horse suddenly finds the one corner to have aliens... next thing you know, with it's regular rider, the horse doesn't have to go into that corner and is working a bit less hard because the rider is now riding defensively. Perhaps with a trainer, the horse would look once, get reprimanded and go along their merry way. That to me is different than a horse that is reactive as a baseline.
Well yes, I agree with that. My horse never starts out 'great', but the spookiness does get worse as the ride goes on and the straightness, etc. is the focus. That said, in my case, I DO reprimand and insist on going past the scary places. However, it never gets any better. Well, I can get past it, but the horse is stiff and tense going past it. The more forward the gait, the worse the resistance.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:29 pm

The other thing is I can't do any repetitions without anticipation. Can't work on canter/trot/canter because with each attempt, the reaction gets more intense. Such that just a wiggle of the seat results in a depart. Working on TOH at the end of the ride. Now, at the end of the ride if I so much as move a leg, she thinks I am asking for TOH. Therefore, I can't really work on improving stuff since I can't repeat it too many times.

I'm pretty baffled by this. I am not saying I'm some great rider, but I am experienced with a lot of horses and almost all of them were on the greener side. I have owned and ridden quite a few TB's, and while they were hot/sensitive, they were not like this horse. She is weird. She is hot is some ways and not in others. I mean, you can get on her after a long time off, and she just stands quietly at the mounting block and walks off on a long rein. Same goes for after a tense ride. You drop the reins, and she relaxes, stretches, etc. No jigging like you see the hot FEI horses do after their GP rides where they are so sensitive they can't walk out of the ring.

I see her as being timid and insecure and anxious to please. When I first got her, I had to tie my gelding in the corner of the indoor when I rode. She wouldn't let him out of her site without going nuts. When he was in the indoor, she wasn't spooking like this. I can't start that up again.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Dresseur » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:42 pm

I think that the horses that are anxious to please their riders are actually the toughest because if you reprimand for anticipation, it actually decreases their confidence because they think that they are doing exactly what you are asking for. Those are the horses that you have to kind of not react to, and just bring them back very quietly and ask again for whatever it is that you did want.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:02 pm

This is an interesting topic! MC, I hate that phrase, too, as it implies that one just needs to dominate the horse in order to move forward (at least in ways I've heard it used). I prefer to work smarter, not more loudly, with horses.

BTW, my mare sounds more than a little like what you are describing MC, but with some different reactions to repetition. I mean, my mare does (usually little) spooks 5-10 x a ride, easily! Mostly during the warm-up. I ride forward and through it, and don't worry about it much. If it persists, I use stronger aids/whip to send her forward (she respects that, as it clarifies that I am "on the job"). She is very much a "manager" of her environment and notices all changes! (at an event barn, objects in the ring move all the time) I have had to build her confidence in various work over time. Repetition of patterns has been a big part of that. I think I just had to work through her over reactions and head/body flinging when we started this, but now repetition is part of our "chill pill" approach.

Dresseur's description is exactly how I approach riding this mare.

My mare is extremely willing to do the job---but she needs to fully understand the job or she feels nervous. She probably doesn't look like that kind of horse most of the time now, but it is inside of her if things get scary or demands change significantly. I agree that it is not simply "hot", it is a kind of reactivity/sensitivity. I actually like this temperament because it helps her be extremely obedient and "all in" with me. Overall, I would say my mare is a more confident horse now than 5 years ago when I got her, but she is still fearful and insecure by nature. Even in handling her on the ground, I've found it is important to "explain things" to her before doing them. She just needs to have a handle on things step by step. I'm not going to call her dumb...but she is a bit literal! lol

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby kande50 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:34 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Hot4Spot's horse is a good example of a horse that is reactive and it has nothing to do with the skill of his rider/handler.


Just the fact that most experienced riders have, or have had, much more or less reactive horses pretty much blows the whole idea of rider incompetence out of the water.

I would think it would be obvious that reactivity has nothing to do with getting out of work either, because all we have to do is go out with another horse and they'll work all day to stay with the other horse. Or, if The Other End is the issue and we ride at the safe end then all of a sudden they're no longer interested in getting out of work.

I think everyone's seen riders try to force their anxious horses to obey, and it's always ugly and seldom works the way they'd like it to work.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Dresseur » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:58 pm

I don't know. I think horses are smart... and the type of work required to try to stay with another horse or get oneself worked up in a lather over bugs or being herd bound is different than when we ask them to do something difficult physically taxing. I've known plenty of horses that create games out of things because they are smart enough to know that it will re-direct the rider's attention and it becomes self rewarding when they do x,y or z and then have don't have to do whatever it is they were being asked to do. These same horses can completely ignore something under a rider that has more clarity or a stronger personality/will.

For instance, Gala will NOT pick up the canter with certain students. It's not always the students that have less competency... a lot of times, it's the students that are a bit wishy-washy. Meaning - she will pick up her canter even if the aids are perfect, but if you are wishy-washy, no dice. Which is a self reward for not cantering. Or, another example is Herbie. She would spook gratuitously at the door with certain students - but neither myself, nor Andrea could invite her to spook no matter how sloppily we rode to try to recreate the conditions that she was spooking under - which is why she didn't work as a school master. The behavior only happened with students, and there was no force out of myself or Andrea - she just never even attempted the behavior. She knew the difference - maybe she wasn't confident with students, who knows... but she was a very bold, alpha mare and IMO was a bit indulgent because the behavior was rewarded by cutting off half the ring or whatever.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:17 pm

There are some useful ideas in this article to consider, especially for the over-achiever/anticipating horse and the sensitive horse:

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health ... pes_041610

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby blob » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:25 pm

I don't like the phrase because it's not helpful--it doesn't lead towards a solution out of the problem/issue that the horse and rider are having.

I also think it's not a very good phrase for anxious horses. Although I did know a lady who thought she could not ride her horse in rain (there as a covered) because her horse was too spooky. But he never spooked with anyone else during the rain. Does that mean he was taking advantage of her? Not necessarily. He was a nervous horse and if she was expecting him to spook, he might have just as well been feeding off of her nerves/tension.

Despite not liking the term, I do think in some ways it fits my relationship with one of my horses. My mare does not take a lot of strength, but she does take consistency and a particular type of attitude to get her to really perform well. When my trainer get on her and some past clinicians, she knows they mean business and she is trucking from step 1. When I ride her, she doesn't really believe that I MEAN BUSINESS all the time. and so sometimes she blows me off. I've had friends ride her and she's often even worse with them--not naughty, just totally unmotivated and lazy. So, while maybe the phrase is still annoying, she is certainly a horse that quickly gauges the confidence and attitude of a rider and adjusts accordingly.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby heddylamar » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:45 pm

That's a teeth-grinding phrase for me.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:57 pm

piedmontfields wrote:There are some useful ideas in this article to consider, especially for the over-achiever/anticipating horse and the sensitive horse:

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health ... pes_041610
Thanks. She hit the nail on the head. I have an overachiever. I was right as I wrote above that repeating exercises just charges them up. Even a lot of transitions will do that. I remember DeKunffy saying that dull horses need a lot of transitions, but more forward/hot horses do not.

Heddy, I've had a couple teeth grinders and both were TB mares. Some of them just do it when tense/worried/angry, etc.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby heddylamar » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:46 am

Lol. I didn't mean the horse grinding teeth. I meant me when I hear that phrase in reference to anything!

It's super annoying, and always seems to be used by someone who knows enough they *could* be helpful, but couldn't be bothered to say something useful.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:13 am

Well, from that article having an over-achieving sort of horse is a very good thing indeed! :D

BTW, I'm realizing that when I say I use repetition, it actually has a lot of variations---because my mare is both a bit sensitive/fearful and over-achieving. I have been taught by several de Kunffy students that her anticipation is not a mistake---just another opportunity for more learning. It has chilled me out to think this.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Kyra's Mom » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:44 am

I know my mare has my number despite life long work of which she is compliant about 99% of the time. But that other 1% :roll: . Her main problem is with turning out. She can get in a hurry and bolt and I have tried umpteen different things to fix it. Of course, it is hard to fix when the issue isn't consistent but I try to stay very consistent with our turnout routine.

Last summer I had one of the teenagers at the barn turn her out every few days when I had my back surgery. She has a large dry lot pen and doesn't really need turn out but she appreciates a few minutes of munching grass. Veronika had not one whit of problems with her. She was easy to turn out and easy to catch.

The first time I turn her out, just as Veronika (the teenager that had been turning her out) is driving by, the nit bolts and takes off yanking the lead rope out of my hand :oops: (no, the car driving by had nothing to do with her fabricated need to bolt). I thought I was ready for that possibility but she can take advantage of the fact that because of my various infirmities, she knows I can't always hold onto her.

So yes, my horse can have my number. Lucky for me, she seldom "has my number" when she is under saddle. I do find that term annoying and I agree with you MC, some horses are just wired that way. Mine was often really reactive and insecure as a youngster. In her teens, she is finally developing some calmness and relaxation. Working with Karen Rohlf's material has really helped me deal with her "stuff" in a much more positive way. Unfortunately, I have been able to ride so little in the last few years that I haven't really been able to 'test' her more thoroughly but feel that the new calmer behavior has stuck.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Flight » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:04 am

From reading this, she sounds like my big horse. He looks like a big dope now, but I did a whole year of 'horsemanship' type training with him because he was anxious, spooky and reactive. That training helped me a lot in understanding how these horses are. He is smart and tries very hard to do what you are asking, he anticipates like crazy when he gets a bit uptight. On the good side, this makes training very easy!
I don't believe he 'has my number' or anything like that and I've had people in the past try and tell me that. Even now, in my arena there is a 'spooky' side next to the neighbours and when it's windy or he has moved any of his stuff, or his cow is lurking around, I let him stand and look and work it out for a few minutes rather than 'push him through it'. Once he's worked out it's just Lily the cow, or it's a new piece of tin whatever, he will work better.
Where you've said you've tried pushing her past the scary place, but it doesn't get better, suggests to me that it is scary. It's not just a way to get out of work.

That anticipation thing, I can't drill anything. It is only a couple of times and move on. If there's any anxiety related to the movement, that anticipation is worse. I often just stop in the arena, drop the reins and wait for him to chew/yawn/sigh/breath out and then I go again. If he can't stand still on that dropped rein, he is still anxious. I wait for that to pass.
Obviously, I don't really know your horse and my experience is just this one horse - but if you take the time and wait for the anxiousness to pass, it makes them much easier to ride.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:18 am

Flight, they sound similar. In my indoor, things change daily according to time of day and how sunny it is outside. Light beams show through the windows and the cracks of the door. They can change throughout the ride, as the sun goes up and down.

With all horses I've ridden, loosening the reins or dropping them does help the situation. Exception would be if they are the type that wants to take off, which isn't the case here. I think some of them feel safer if they know they can escape (loose reins). If they are connected, maybe they feel trapped. Who knows; just a thought.

I do think that an over-achiever is probably a good thing, but it depends on the rider. I'm coming off a big, lazy horse, so the change is like night and day to me. The big/lazy horse had his 'thing' too. He freaked out at noise, which was a huge problem for me in the winter with snow on the roof. The mare isnt bothered by noise at all. They all have their thing.

I am somewhat looking forward to my neighbor returning from Florida and riding with me occasionally. Perhaps another horse in the ring will help matters. The problem there is that she is one of those that gets into her own zone and isn't considerate of the other rider. It will mean me always having to pay attention to where she is and what she is doing. Ordinarily I can do that if I'm on a more trained horse, but that isn't the case here at present.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby kande50 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:41 am

duplicate post
Last edited by kande50 on Tue May 07, 2019 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby kande50 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:42 am

musical comedy wrote:Flight, they sound similar. In my indoor, things change daily according to time of day and how sunny it is outside. Light beams show through the windows and the cracks of the door. They can change throughout the ride, as the sun goes up and down.


A lot of people aren't even aware of that, because they're too busy playing the victim (the horse is out to get them because he isn't really afraid, because he wasn't afraid yesterday so must be just faking it to get out of work).

What most often follows from that is advice along the lines of make him do it, ride him through it, etc..., and then the complaints about the horse anticipating, getting tense, rearing, bucking, and/or becoming more and more shut down (lazy).

Back when I first started my horse I spent many, many sessions trying to figure out why I couldn't get him to do things I knew he could do (go into certain corners, make a round circle, go forward) until I finally realized that it wasn't a training problem, but a fear problem. IOW, it wasn't that he didn't understand the cues, or that he didn't want to do it (he's a clicker trained boy so he always wants to do it) but was just that safety was much more important to him than earning rewards or avoiding aversives.

I also think that trying to keep them on the bit when they're afraid is probably counterproductive, because it makes them feel like they may not be able to escape. It may "work" in some ways if the fear is mild enough, by allowing the rider to expose them enough so that they can habituate. But I think it can also backfire by allowing the rider to take the horse too far out of his comfort zone, and then when he does go he has all that bottled up tension fueling the reaction.

There are two reasons I now try to avoid those big reactions even though I'm confident enough that I can stay on. One is that I know that my horse is going to run into the bit when he spooks, which I think just reinforces the idea that there was something to be afraid of. And the other is that I don't want him to ever find out that he can run through the bit because as of right now he doesn't seem to think he can, and I'd like to keep it that way.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:20 am

kande50 wrote: safety was much more important to him than earning rewards or avoiding aversives.
I'd rather have a horse like that then one that would jump through fire out of trust and/or bravery. I know many will disagree with that. When I was eventing, I remember some BNT saying that the horse has to be more afraid of the rider than of jumping the fence. I want a horse to respect me, but I do not want a horse to be afraid of me. Once, circa 2003, I had a BNT on my old guy when I was in training. At the end of his short ride, the horse stood square at the halt and he was shaking. I kid you not. It was not obvious that this trainer was over-riding, but somehow he instilled fear in my horse, and this is a very confident and brave horse.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:06 pm

This is one of those discussions where I realize that my version of using repetition (doing something a couple of times) is nothing like drilling! :lol: I also find that with my fearful horse I tend to introduce a pattern she knows and then build on it element by element (so we don't actually repeat the original pattern at all).

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:20 pm

I have no association with this phrase, to be it's descriptive. The situation it is portraying is negative but reality.

This means the rider is mentally and physically not effective. I get it, it's hard. I have seen this play out countless times, and really have to be sure I don't get into the trap myself.

The horse knows the rider can't be effective so they call the shots. Sometimes it's due to fear in the rider or lack of knowledge of how to proceed. I have been so guilty of stopping halfway to the solution.
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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Flight » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:47 pm

piedmontfields wrote:This is one of those discussions where I realize that my version of using repetition (doing something a couple of times) is nothing like drilling! :lol: I also find that with my fearful horse I tend to introduce a pattern she knows and then build on it element by element (so we don't actually repeat the original pattern at all).


Pied - I didn't mean to make you think I thought you were drilling! My little black horse, he needs the repetition to learn things, he seems to take a lot longer to 'get' things. I try and get him to anticipate :)

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:04 pm

No worries, it just struck me in these exchanges. I have had the principle "use the whole arena" pounded into me, so even when we are working in a certain pattern (say shoulder in / shoulder out) groove, I'm pretty good about getting far far away from the 20 m circle ;-)

Rye, I do not know what you mean. Are you trying to describe your thoughts on "drilling"?

Personally, I will repeat work to a satisfactory effort, but upon achieving satisfaction (for the day/circumstances), we move on rather than try to accumulate a bunch of "good enoughs" on a particular movement. On the other hand, I do think many people (speaking generally) don't hang in with hard work long enough in order to get a change in the horse's athletic effort and outcome. Again, recall that I am at an event barn where the attention span is very short ;-)

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Chisamba » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:14 am

I actually drill more with the horse who anticipates. I try to emphasize that I even if the horse, especially Kimba, knows what is coming next, she is required to wait til I ask. The reward comes not for doing what is anticipated, but for doing what is asked.

I used to try not to repeat, but I changed that technique and I find it more effective to actually repeat the exercises til she is comfortable enough to relax and not anticipate. Turns out her anticipation is anxiety. Once she is comfortable with the exercise she stops anticipating.

As for "she has your number" it implies spitefulness which I dont think horses have.

Horses can be evasive or over react but I dont think its spite. I think it's not believing the rider knows the best way to do something, or its self protection, or lack of understanding, or anxiety.

I think it would anger me if someone told me my horse " has my number". But mostly I would lose respect for that person's opinion.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Flight » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:45 am

Yes, but you wouldn't keep asking for the movement or the 'thing' if they were anticipating? I'll give example. Cantering across the diagonal on Norsey I ask for a flying change. He does one and then I come back across to repeat it but he starts leaping or changing before I ask. So I then try again to just canter the diagonal and might turn off, or add a circle or something just before I feel him start to try and do one himself and work on being able to just canter across a diagonal without him doing the change without being asked. So I guess that is the drilling part for a horse that anticipates.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby kande50 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:08 am

I just had another interesting clicker training session with Sting, who I'm sure appears to have my number. :-)

Sting's done a lot of trot poles but has never been taught to jump, and I wanted to try to shape a new behavior that's based on the horse jumping over a small jump.

To make a long story short it took awhile, and I tried a lot of different approaches before I found the one that worked, but as soon as I was able to get across to him what I wanted he went from looking like he had my number to volunteering to go back and forth over the jump as many times as I was willing to reward him for it.

I'm working on the same behavior with my chubby little mule, who has jumped a lot, but I ran into the same kinds of problems with him because I used hay bales for the jump and he was used to jumping over logs and rails. So we had a couple of sessions in which he also "had my number", until I changed the jump to something he recognized as a jump and then he suddenly became highly enthusiastic about going back and forth over it.

Every time this happens I'm again blown away by how much of what looks like unwillingness is actually confusion. And no wonder given the extent, and complexity, of what we want horses to learn.
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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:09 am

Flight wrote:Yes, but you wouldn't keep asking for the movement or the 'thing' if they were anticipating? I'll give example. Cantering across the diagonal on Norsey I ask for a flying change. He does one and then I come back across to repeat it but he starts leaping or changing before I ask. So I then try again to just canter the diagonal and might turn off, or add a circle or something just before I feel him start to try and do one himself and work on being able to just canter across a diagonal without him doing the change without being asked. So I guess that is the drilling part for a horse that anticipates.
I don't at all call your technique drilling. Drilling is yet another dressage term that means different things. I generally think of it as over-practicing something that a horse already knows, more than repetititive trying to teach them something new. I have btdt on teaching the tempis. In lessons (with my old guy), trainer would have me repeating the line, and the horse would just start throwing them in all over. Then I would lose my count and, quite honestly, get flustered myself.

I can see Chisamba's point about doing something over and over until it's no longer a big deal to the horse. It's another one of those 'it depends' kind of things. A lot really depends on the rider and how knowledgeable and competent they are. With some of us, we are also not comfortable or confident with the exercises we are trying to teach. Which is why, we should have a highly trained horse or constant help on the ground. <sigh>

Chisamba wrote: think it would anger me if someone told me my horse " has my number". But mostly I would lose respect for that person's opinion.
It did, and in some cases I don't value this person's opinion. I just let it go, because friends (or so-called friends) get fewer as we age.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:28 pm

piedmontfields wrote:Rye, I do not know what you mean. Are you trying to describe your thoughts on "drilling"?


No, I was discussing the OP and the "has your number" idea. Here is the OP with my comments that reply to specific areas. OP is in black, my comments in red. Does this make it more clear?

Here is the OP again:

I hate that comment. My good friend has said that to me a number of times, and each time I have to bite my tongue so as not to argue. What does that comment even mean to you?
This means the rider is mentally and physically not effective. I get it, it's hard. I have seen this play out countless times, and really have to be sure I don't get into the trap myself. I think it means the horse recognizes that the rider is scared or incapable and the horse is taking advantage. So to me, the comment is an insult I have no association with this phrase, to be it's descriptive. The situation it is portraying is negative but reality. The horse knows the rider can't be effective so they call the shots. Sometimes it's due to fear in the rider or lack of knowledge of how to proceed. I have been so guilty of stopping halfway to the solution. which is why it ticks me off.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:15 pm

And another similar comment people give is "he/she is testing you".

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Sue B » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:51 pm

And another similar comment people give is "he/she is testing you".


As a matter of fact, Tio "tests" me nearly every day in warm-up, hoping (I guess) for a different answer. As we approach the end of the arena which is closest to the driveway and freedom, he starts to drift, sometimes going into a full on balk as we turn to go up the long side, and yet, every. single. time. I simply look down the line and ride as though we are going there and poof, there we go. Some would probably have me "get after" him, but I find that, with him, giving him the time and space to make up his own mind to cooperate is far more effective than trying to bully him. Rarely, does he do it more than once a session and it has been years since it progressed to full on disobedience so...

Otoh, if Rudy is "testing me" it is because he is confused or worried or unable to comply. If someone tells me that, or "he's got your number" , I hit "ignore" and carry on as though I haven't heard him/her. :D

MC, I just wanted to add that I feel your pain with your mare. My Lad was an uber reactive horse and I eventually just learned to sort of flow with it and not fight it. As an aside, he was one horse that did not like to have looped reins and would get more nervous if you tried to walk him out that way. he liked a consistent soft "hug" with my calves and a soft long but not loose rein when walking out and about. I always had to be "holding his hand" when I rode him. Same with the couple of bigger name trainers who rode him. Best advice I had was, "ride the horse you're on at the moment". Meaning, when he was relaxed and happy, enjoy it and don't worry about what might crop up next.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:57 pm

musical comedy wrote:And another similar comment people give is "he/she is testing you".

Yes. I believe they do this all the time. Its normal.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby kande50 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:03 pm

musical comedy wrote:And another similar comment people give is "he/she is testing you".


Yeah, because horses love the pain from the bit, whip, and spurs so much.

I get the sentiment, but why not use more more accurate phrases like, "you need to be clearer about what you want him to do", "start preparing sooner", "half halt now, half halt again, bend right..."?

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Ryeissa » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:19 pm

I think horses test in a couple of ways- to see various answers and what the right answer is, and to see mentally if you are directing them or if they can call the shots. This doesn't bother me, it can still be a very positive ride when they are testing and sorting it out.
my horse is the happiest dude ever, never ever has a bad day. But he still tests me and wants to know I'm the one in the drivers seat.

you can't ride good dressage or anything with out this understanding. It's so fundamental to everything and true harmony. I think once you establish this mental framework the horse can "submit" in a good way and start to grow more beautiful from trusting the rider's judgement/approach/instructions.

I have had two VERY sharp and smart horses, so that colors my response.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Chisamba » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:57 am

Flight wrote:Yes, but you wouldn't keep asking for the movement or the 'thing' if they were anticipating? I'll give example. Cantering across the diagonal on Norsey I ask for a flying change. He does one and then I come back across to repeat it but he starts leaping or changing before I ask. So I then try again to just canter the diagonal and might turn off, or add a circle or something just before I feel him start to try and do one himself and work on being able to just canter across a diagonal without him doing the change without being asked. So I guess that is the drilling part for a horse that anticipates.


I have recently realized this is counter productive. I will canter the diagonal and ask for the transition *I am still working on flying changes, so let's insert simple change, in exactly the same spot until Kimba waits and does it correctly..as soon as she waits for the aid and gives the transition with relaxation, I will reward and add a stretch circle to tell her that was IT.

For example, horses jigging when you take up the rein from free walk, because they know the test has a canter next.

Old method, add a circle before the canter to work on relaxation and no anticipation. Horse still jigs.

New method, repeat exercise with no circle until Kimba stays quiet and relaxed through the free walk, walk canter. I basically say, yes, you and I both know the canter is coming, but we will still do it correctly and relaxed on the mark. Not when you want and not when I want, but where the judge wants. A successful effort earns a stretch trot circle to tell her, yes, that was it

I am finding it a thousand times more effective than thinking that changing it every time to avoid anticipation is somehow going to make her more relaxed. I think never knowing what's coming next is more anxiety laden, not less.

Wasnt it Escudo who ran into the dressage ring with no rider and did the whole GP test? I seem to remember that story.

Basically I want my horse to know it's ok to know what's coming, it is even relaxing and reassuring, but my horse needs to still follow my lead.

It's exactly like leading a horse in from pasture at feed time. I know they are in a hurry to get their feed, but they still have to walk beside me, not pull ahead.

I put up a cone exercise to help Kimba understand I was asking for a flying change. All I wanted was a simple change through trot between the cones. It was only when I showed her that I knew and she knew what was coming, but she still had to wait til we reached the cone, that I was able to get then change between the cones. Then stretch and reward. By listening to Kimba. I realized it increased her tension to not know. Knowing what's coming us fine, its good. it means she is smart and enthusiastic, her ad libbing doing the wrong thing because she knows is not. She may not change rhythm, tempo, gait or acceptance of the bit, seat or leg, because she wants to "get through the gate" before me.

Anyway, I have found it works way better than trying to avoid repetition.

By the way if I have to "drill" something to get it right, it is called effort, and anything worthwhile takes effort. I had to drill myself to learn the multiplication tables. 8-)

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby kande50 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:56 am

I think the term "drilling" is used to describe the kind of repetition that the observer feels is excessive or unfair.

If the work isn't difficult for them I think horses prefer repetition, because then they know the answers so can escape the aversives/earn the rewards more easily.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby khall » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:31 pm

I think where horses may be perceived as testing you is actually them showing us the holes in our riding/equitation. Some horses are much more giving than others, they will try their damnedest to get it right others are much more of a stickler for the rider to get it right:) I've ridden and owned both. Rip will show every hole in your equitation or commitment you have. Both on the ground and US. Why very few want to ride him (like none other than Mark) and I would let very few if any ride him. He is not a kind, giving horse that will forgive mistakes. I've learned so much from him (don't go down the rabbit hole as Mark would say) yet know and Mark said last clinic I had with him I would be much farther along if I had had an easier horse.

I'm working with a friend and her OTTB g (I helped her find him) he is the kindest most giving horse and tries so hard. He does require a precise ride because he is sensitive, but there is no shenanigans with him. You show him he does it. He is quite a nice horse movement wise as well. He is the type of horse I adore. Sensitive yet so very sensible. Wind was howling yesterday and he just went out and went to work.

Working with a horse like MC describes is quite challenging, the ones that are on guard (Rip often is as well, he can be spooky) all the time and anticipates all the time. The anticipation is not something I deal with very much. But I would not say the mare has anyone's number, just that she tries too hard which I could see leading to the worry and concern. I would do lots of dwelling with her. Do some work, if it gets close to being right go stand and let her soak on it.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Sun May 05, 2019 8:49 am

I have proven my point about the mare's insecurity. I know in years past, insecure horses have been discussed on udbb and some of the in-house experts said it was BS.

Yesterday I had my first lesson of the year, as trainer just got back from Florida.

I had an idea, so I asked him if we could work near the one end of the indoor where she doesn't like to pass. It's the light that shines underneath the door. He stood there, and we proceeded with the warmup. The mare was perfect. Zero tenseness and no concern about that door. Why? Because my trainer assured her it was safe.

In the early months after I bought her, I had tied my old guy in the corner in order to ride, as at that time she got frantic if he was out of her sight. During those rides, she never spooked either, because he was there.

I have yet to ride her with another horse in the ring and I have not ridden her outside, so I don't know what she would be like then, or at a show.

Anyway, it just goes to show that she is truly afraid of things and doesn't 'have my number'.

I was so happy with how she went in the lesson. Trainer was ho-hum about it for a number of reasons. For one, he is used to working with horses of much high quality and riders that are more proficient.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Sue B » Mon May 06, 2019 3:58 pm

Great insight MC. Having concrete evidence of what goes on in your horse's head really helps us know what the path ahead may be.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Mon May 06, 2019 5:05 pm

MC, that's a great lesson update.

I was having a conversation last week with a friend who is a long-time student of a very experienced FEI level trainer. The trainer was explaining toher just how different the effective approach can be working with different horse characters, even as the overall foundations of the work are the same. My friend is getting to know her newish horse who is quite fearful compared to any horse she's had before. She is being surprised to learn just how much she needs to use the shape of dressage work (the exercise, the aids, her seat) to give confidence to the horse. It's a very different experience compared to her other horse---and there are times she finds it scary even though her fearful horse doesn't do that much wrong (but does get tense and spook sometimes).

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Xanthoria » Mon May 06, 2019 6:24 pm

musical comedy wrote:I hate that comment. My good friend has said that to me a number of times, and each time I have to bite my tongue so as not to argue. What does that comment even mean to you? I think it means the horse recognizes that the rider is scared or incapable and the horse is taking advantage. So to me, the comment is an insult which is why it ticks me off.

I have issues with an anxious, insecure horse. I believe this horse is going to be anxious and tense no matter if a bnt is riding her. Each time I speak with my friend on the phone, I make the mistake of saying how crappy my ride was, and then I get "she has your number" or "she's trying to get out of work". My horse is not trying to get out of work. She will do or try to do whatever it is I ask, but when she sees something she finds scary (which is intermittent through the whole ride), then she reacts and everything good disappears. But, as soon as past the scary thing, everything improves again. A horse that was trying to get out of work, would be trying to get out of work the whole ride. That's my opinion.

Hot4Spot's horse is a good example of a horse that is reactive and it has nothing to do with the skill of his rider/handler.


Annoying on so many levels: First, the implication your horse is trying to avoid work, when the opposite is true. Second the implication you're an ineffective rider. And third your friend not knowing you and the horse well enough to come out with such assumptions, yet feeling confident in her assessment.

I think some horses will put in less effort for a timid rider, or one who asks the wrong way: there are a great many energy conservationists in the horse world! And horses learn good and bad habits equally as fast, so while they're not conniving, they can learn that less effort is not punished quite quickly. And in those instances using a somewhat challenging phrase like "he's got your number!" can help a timid rider be more firm.

For a very sensitive overachiever I think a very clear marker (reward - verbal, click, pat or treat) when good behaviors happens helps prevent a horse "catastrophizing" that every effort is wrong wrong wrong! Then you also have a precedent, and when you ignore an incorrect attempt, the horse can more easily register "incorrect" vs "correct" I talk to my horse a lot - he's not hugely nervous but he understands some words, and tone, and really responds to praise. And focusing on my voice and other inputs keeps his mind off the monster in the bushes.

Also I am not a specific fan of him, but this article struck a chord: https://www.warwickschiller.com/much-wo ... se-handle/

Also just remembered a funny story: someone I know bought a new horse. It arrived at the barn and she went for a trail ride: horse was foot perfect as expected, and the ride was lovely and relaxing. The next day she discovered she had taken the wrong horse out on the trail... she'd taken a horse known to be extremely frightened on the trail, and whose rider would NEVER take him there.

Terrifying, amusing, a bit :shock: but it does tell a story.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Josette » Mon May 06, 2019 7:40 pm

I think it takes time to form a trusting bond with a new horse especially a sensitive or less brave animal. I've found it useful to hand walk in new outdoor areas or even nearby trails - walk the property like walking a dog. I've noticed that some horses seen to get confidence from the ground person as a leader - maybe? Similar to taking a youngster out and having them follow a lead horse. Maybe this is why your mare was fine with the trainer at the far end of the ring. It gave her a feeling of security.

Xanthoria - your funny post reminded me when I had purchased a 4 yr old many years ago. I had to take a short business trip and asked my friend if she would mind grooming if she had some spare time. When I returned she mentioned she had vacuumed my youngster. I said you vacuumed him? :shock: How was he? She said perfectly fine. To my knowledge he had never been vacuumed although he had heard and seen horses getting this cleaning process. Done deal - I could vacuum him. So I think most animals may take their cue from how the person handles them and their state of mind. A relaxed and confident person can transfer some of that mental state to a horse - at least sometimes.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby piedmontfields » Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 pm

That was Xan's story, but I have actually done that! :oops: :oops: It was fine, but the trainer was later shocked (I was exercising horses at the barn, but took out the wrong horse).

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Xanthoria » Mon May 06, 2019 9:58 pm

Nooooo!!!! :shock: :o :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby musical comedy » Tue May 14, 2019 3:34 pm

Different friend, Different comment. Today she wrote this to me in an email.

"he's pretty rideable, I"d say for just about any rider. I swear I'm very sure even you could ride him, he's very simple, as long as you ignore his size. "

Even I could ride him. :lol: Well guess what, I don't want to ride him. Pffft. It's crap like this that ruins my day.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Abby Kogler » Tue May 14, 2019 3:43 pm

musical comedy wrote:Different friend, Different comment. Today she wrote this to me in an email.

"he's pretty rideable, I"d say for just about any rider. I swear I'm very sure even you could ride him, he's very simple, as long as you ignore his size. "

Even I could ride him. :lol: Well guess what, I don't want to ride him. Pffft. It's crap like this that ruins my day.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Wow.

And this is a 'friend'?! "

I don't think you need 'friends' like that.

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Sue B » Tue May 14, 2019 4:05 pm

OH MY GOSH! Talk about a complete twat. Try not to waste any time thinking about her and her stupid email; she is no friend.

The right horse will come along when you least expect it, and then you'll have to decide what to do with your mare. In the meantime, maybe some better friends will show up to! :P

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Xanthoria » Tue May 14, 2019 4:17 pm

Reply:

“Dearest friend, I’m desperately sorry you think I am such a poor rider. I will henceforth devote all my energies to improving, and as a result will have no time for mere friendships. Alas, this means we shall never speak again, but remember me fondly, knowing your wise works/casual cruelty spurred me to greater heights!”

I GUARANTEE she will never speak to you again. Either because she took the hint or because she thinks you’re insane. Hey, net net you’re in a better place :mrgreen:

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Ryeissa » Tue May 14, 2019 5:02 pm

Oh dear how insulting! That is really terrible....................

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Re: He/She Has Got Your Number

Postby Josette » Tue May 14, 2019 5:06 pm

The comment is not worth letting it ruin your day. The person doesn't sound knowledgeable about riding skill levels for training horse and/or rider. Hit delete button.


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