Medium trot

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khall
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Medium trot

Postby khall » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:43 pm

Several of us have either been down this road or are still going down this road. I have been working Rip some on line to see what I see in his development in this department. He definitely is changing for the better, I am just trying to figure out what works best for him to show him the way to mediums.

He has better mediums with a higher head carriage even to the point of almost being above the bit. This is true for piaffe work as well. I use half steps to coil that spring and counter SI/SI to teach him more about opening the shoulders (SW too) His biggest issue is that he does not want to put the effort into pushing for medium trot I have to demand rather than allow. He is capable of it, just if you push he wants to argue back (especially on line) with some leaps and farts. How do you prepare a horse who just is not that into revving the engines?

I do like using the fields for this as well. Thinking about possibly adding in jumping and or cavaletti.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby blob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:35 pm

MM is not a leaper or a farter, but our extended trot is a distinct lowlight. It's improved a lot and will continue to improve but it's definitely something I have to push for.

Things that have helped:

Fields and hills
Focusing on passage or passage like trot. This helped build strength and cadence. But also my instructor had me go from baby passage to medium back to passage to get more suspension in the mediums. Turns out MM thought baby passage was great fun, so that helped.
Trot poles! Do them raised spaces out for collected trot. Or lower and spread further. Trainer had me build a long line of trot poles that built length of stride, which was helpful. First 3 poles spaced for collected, next 3 for working, then 3 for a lengthening, finally 3 for proper medium

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:15 pm

Canter in a half seat to loosen the back, then try again- the leaping tells me he is getting balled up....how do your transitions look between the medium/working/collected gaits? does he down and up shift readily or is this where he stalls?

I would refresh the response to the leg if he is arguing. It should flow with almost no leg to "generate"- it should already (in a perfect world) be already inside the horse. I have experienced the difference and its quite eye opening to have a medium with no added leg- just the "cue" to start the work by posting higher and stronger. I didn't actually work on lengthenings per say this winter, I worked on a lot of back strength. this was a nice by product :) As I said, my horse has been jumping tiny stuff and it helps with the strength and forward desire.

I have experimented with a lot of ways to get medium trot- things change as the horse develops. They can all work- ie coming from a forward canter to forward trot, or more packaged trot. I can "shut down" the horse too much with this so I have to be mindful of keeping the forward feeling.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby khall » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:19 pm

Rye Rip does not stall out, the leaping has been in him from the get go. You ask for "more" and he leaps buck farts on line at times. US he does not do that but I am also more careful how strongly I ask, for self preservation!

Oh I am well aware of the mediums should be there and we should just allow. Unfortunately that is not Rip. He is showing good mediums on line going from half steps to mediums albeit with the occasional and sometimes more often leap buck fart in there. He has power, but it tends to go up (he is jumping lines on both sides:/ rather than forward. The half steps have definitely helped. I am thinking cavelletti and jumping will too, as you say build that strength.

I am also careful about light seat in the canter. When he is good and on point I can do it no problem, when he is having a not so cooperative kind of day that is a no not gonna go there.

Oh yes I have felt the power of fabulous extensions! My OTTB g would get 8-9's on them. It was that true lift up in the front sink down behind, suck you into the saddle extension! Axel Steiner gave him a 9. He was the kind, just open the door and allow, yet would come back with a breath. Addicting!! Rip no where near has that feeling. It may also stem from me being a bit hesitant about "going there" so to speak. Why should he commit when I am unsure, but I am unsure because I don't want to ride leap buck fart! Conundrum.

Rode today, he had a few testing moments but once he settled WTC lateral work, transitions within lateral work, RB etc were all there with ease. I did not "go there" though asking for actual mediums because it was one of those days. I felt if I had pushed I would get leap buck fart. Some days are not like that. He goes out and I can ask for more, some days I end up with a hoof print on my hip because I asked for more in hand and he spooks, leaps and kicks out.

SueB knows exactly of what I speak of, her Tio I think is a brother from another mother! IMO it is just some of the WBs, they can really test you. My theory is it is the jumping lines especially, jumpers don't care about ride ability as long as the horse can jump the big jumps.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby mari » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:50 pm

My appy x has no medium trot. Enormous canter, choppy pony trot.

Two things have brought some improvement. The first is to really work on the collection end of the see-saw. Improving our collection has led to more scope for the bigger trot too.

The second thing was 'chasing' him at the biggest trot he can do, many laps of the arena. Not pretty, but certainly useful. The theory from two separate coaches that suggested this is that often they are just not comfortable in their bodies with the big trot. So just keep doing lap after lap, kick/tap forward if they flag, make sure the head is up so they're not plowing onto the forehand too much. Sure, you can do a little rebalance in the first corner after a long side, but push through the short side too. It has really helped to settle Odin in the bigger trot, and now we get a bit more reach, and a better frame.
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Re: Medium trot

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:36 pm

I second Mari's two points, at least in my experience with Emi. The collected work has helped us, and she has had to spend time in a bigger trot in order to get comfortable with that size movement as an option. The other note I'll make is that Emi needs quite an open throat latch to do something like a medium. I know you know that, but sometimes exaggerating a feel can be helpful.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby exvet » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:19 pm

Agree with all of the above and have owned the one who wanted to 'test' when pushed. Finding the motivation in the 'tester' is a challenge. We all know those horses that just love to rev it up and 'shine'. I am really hoping Junior is going to be one of those of course. I think we have a decent chance at it because he loves to hear the exuberant 'YES" and scratch to giving the right answer. He's developing the 'lift off' and seems to be connecting the dots. As for the 'tester' I am trying to find his motivation. I find like the others that working on developing better collection and for mine A LOT of suppling exercises leading up to the work - 1o meter circles at the walk going from renvers to travers to SI and so on.....has helped the more reticent AND really trying to emphasize (with strong positive verbal praise) to even a hint of the right response before the .....hey wait a minute why am I working harder???? question to the request giving some glimmer of hope.

I have to laugh though because it's like finding the motivation with my kids. With one I'm at a loss of words because I just don't know how to motivate the child (now an adult) where the other was born with an innate desire to strive to beat the competition - now that I can work with and understand.....so even as an adult I have an easier time 'connecting' with that child and giving support and encouragement THAT IS READILY ACCEPTED AND NOT MISINTERPRETED.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:24 pm

My trainer would opt for Mari's method, at least with my current horse. My opinion is that horses are born with a certain amount of 'range' within their gait. It is what it is. This is another reason for the big price tag on horses. The better horses come with a natural medium and an easy extension once they learn to collect a bit. I've seen people do mediums and extensions bridleless. You all have. That said, my opinion based on my experience and from reading too is that a horse should be 'drawing' on the bit always. That energy should be coming through such that you just slightly release the reins and boom comes the medium. You go to medium out of collection which, again imo, is when you have the horse together like a coiled spring. And yes, I know there are people (some on here) that are doing all this with a looping rein, but that's not the method my trainers employ. However you get it is fine. However, if it is taking you years to get a improvement in mediums, maybe it's time to rethink your method.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby DJR » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:54 pm

I've tried the "chasing" technique with my Friesian/Perch, and he just ends up going faster (not longer) and tightens his back. Lately we've been doing transitions within the trot back to almost half-steps, then power surge forward (but not fast) for 2-4 strides, then collect. I'm finding this more helpful, but I MUST keep him "up" instead of diving. It's not easy!
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Re: Medium trot

Postby khall » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:06 pm

All excellent points! MC I do want to address your comment that I need to rethink my method. I want to reiterate Rip has definitely changed in his ability to do mediums in a positive manner. He actually has mediums! There is thrust and reach out the shoulder and the swung that has been illusive for him and I firmly attribute it to the piaffe/half steps and the SW I am doing with him. (this work is something I have done since Mark died and with Cedar's help) Cedar even remarked last time she was here the his mediums had improved. My biggest issue is trying to build that desire in him to WANT to GO (without the leaping around crap). So I can just open the door and allow not have to manufacture or demand. My OTTB g had that desire and ability in spades. Rip's dam had a much easier time of mediums, she is a much more forward thinking kind of gal without the testing though she does still have the leaping usually only on line never one to be naughty US.

I will try to get some video of him on line which is where I can push for more umph without fearing bodily harm:) as long as I am out of the kick zone!

DJR I hear you totally on half steps to medium, that is exactly what I do with Rip. The SW has helped as well to show him how to use his shoulders better. I am also toying with putting the school halt on him to help build strength. Karen R uses bounce jumps on line.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Chisamba » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:24 pm

It is probably not even worth trying to help here but I will throw a few thoughts out anyway.

Medium gaits come from collection because collection develops the circle of aids. Only if the horse has accepted the change of balance and through connection, can its gait be improved . You do not want to lift the neck, this quickens and shortens the stride, you want to lower the haunches, this allows the hind leg to step toward the nose, which improves the natural gait and develops expression.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:11 pm

"My biggest issue is trying to build that desire in him to WANT to GO (without the leaping around crap)."

Is it GO = "Yay, leap around" in his mind? Or it GO = "really hard for me --leap around to get away from that effort"? (for my horse and most horses I've known, it would be the latter, but you know your horse).

I mention this because some horses will show quite a bit of resistance and acrobatics when an increase in balance and power is expected of them. Sometimes I think that is because it is physically demanding for them. (and there might be a physical issue, but it can also just be the shock of the hard work). Other times, it's a bit of a fit about changing expectations. From the way you write about Rip, I sense that you "ride around" his moods of the day in order to protect your own hide! That could affect clarity about how much power you want.

Really I'm just musing again about "riding without ambiguity."

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Re: Medium trot

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:24 pm

I've always thought my old retired guy was a bit like Khall's rip. He had more than enough ability and he did score well on mediums/extensions, but only when he decided to put in the effort. Getting that desire from him was the difficult part. Even for regular basic work, he was not an energizer bunny type. Big, old style WB with a lot of suspension.

But going back to the subject, half steps, etc. are good but the horse has to have the scope, the freedom of the shoulder, etc. to do good mediums and extensions. I don't care how much they lower their hind end and sit, it's not going to be a good medium if the horse doesn't have the front end to give it.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby blob » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:52 pm

musical comedy wrote:
But going back to the subject, half steps, etc. are good but the horse has to have the scope, the freedom of the shoulder, etc. to do good mediums and extensions. I don't care how much they lower their hind end and sit, it's not going to be a good medium if the horse doesn't have the front end to give it.



This is why my trainer had me work on passage (really baby passage) to get better mediums. Get that shoulder lifting up and then push it out. My horse has a very active hind leg and will sit all day long, but lifting up the shoulder and reaching forward, that's another story.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Chisamba » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:13 pm

Well there is lowering the hindquarters and stepping toward the nose, and there is sit. two different things, imho. a horse with a straighter shoulder usually gives a higher knee with a folded cannon bone in the medium, and a horse with a sloped free shoulder gives a rounder knee, but both can be taught to do mediums , horses tied in at the elbow give a stalin goose step gait but again all can be taught to do medium gaits, i was once scribing for a judge who gave a little appy an eight for medium, and a fabulous moving warmblood a 6 mostly because you could really see a difference in the appys medium and the fabulous moving warmblood looked fabulous but did not show any sit, any lengthening of stride or any change, shall we say. That was imho a good judge

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Re: Medium trot

Postby khall » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:47 pm

The mechanics for mediums are definitely there, it is developing the desire is where I am at.

piedmont those are good questions and I would say Rip can leap because both WEEE and I don't want to put the effort in to going forward. What I see is when he gets his energy up whether from outside stimuli or me asking for it, he often leaps he is not a run away type of horse. I want to be able to channel that energy into positive direction rather than up. Cedar has a much different take on it than Mark did, which is if they leap and buck crack them FORWARD even if they end up running off. I have wondered if I had addressed his leaping issues early on in this manner if I would be having these issues still.

As for riding judicially at times, yes I do. Or more like I choose my battles. There is no way I am going head to head with this guy. I am persistent and insistent but not forceful. I am not unhappy with how he is going by any means, but I am very aware of the potential he has to put me on the ground. The leaps thank goodness have never come out US, but he is a spooker with the 180 trick up his sleeve. When he is feeling that edgy I will concentrate more on lateral work and transitions to keep him with me than high energy stuff which is what yesterday's ride was like. Some lovely work and he was fun to ride.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby musical comedy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:52 pm

Chisamba wrote: a horse with a straighter shoulder usually gives a higher knee with a folded cannon bone in the medium, and a horse with a sloped free shoulder gives a rounder knee, but both can be taught to do mediums
Here's a friesian with the typical ugly front end doing what they are calling an extension. I think this is ugly and I do not think a horse that moves like this can do (what I personally consider) a satisfactory med/extension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaE_Lb84SF4
P.S. Why on earth do they leave those feathers on to emphasize the ugliness of the movement.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Chisamba » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:14 pm

I think every breed with every type of gait can, with soundness and willingness , do medium and extended gaits. They may not please your eye, but they can perform their version. As to whether that friesian is doing an extension, that could be argued.
Last edited by Chisamba on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:44 pm

I am getting good ideas from this thread, so thank you all! Thanks Blob for making the explicit connection between baby passage and improved mediums.

I will put a vote in for saying that particular Friesian video did not seem to demonstrate a medium trot. Have I seen Friesians demonstrate an acceptable (6) medium trot? Yes. But it can be rare. I'm really no fan of Friesians but I will give credit when I see it :-)

khall wrote: Cedar has a much different take on it than Mark did, which is if they leap and buck crack them FORWARD even if they end up running off. I have wondered if I had addressed his leaping issues early on in this manner if I would be having these issues still.


Just to make sure I'm following you---Cedar advises crack them forward? (not second guessing that advice---it is actually probably my go to move because a lot of horses like this are too lazy to actually seriously run away).

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Re: Medium trot

Postby khall » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:12 am

Yes piedmont Cedar if the horse goes to broncing on the line sends them off strongly with the whip. Forward even to fast galloping not pulling away (though early in his life Rip might have very much left town if I had cracked him on strongly, he had already had to go in a solid caveson because of his shenanigans)

This is a good thread with lots of good info and exercises to work on. One that chisamba had talked about in a previous thread I had always meant to try and just kept forgetting. I hope I have it right: spiral in, then spiral out in LY or LY asking for big sideways then go forward in medium. To help open the shoulders up.

Cedar does something similar in asking for steeper angle in counter SI and ask for bigger trot in the lateral movement through the turns then straighten and medium.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:08 pm

Well, to affirm Cedar's approach, I'd say that is exactly what the trainer and her students does at my eventing barn with the jumper-line bred young WBs ...who are VERY athletic!

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Chisamba » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:13 pm

From my experience with Kea and Deneb, a very forward galloping horse cannot buck as hard and it's easier to sit. Have any of you see the video of Gert, a Dutch colt breaker? He always had someone in the ring with him with a longe whip. When the horse starts bucking they send it forward at a canter.

Just an interesting thought

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Sue B » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:56 pm

I agree with sending bucking horses forward, but I should mention that I did break my femoral neck getting bucked off Scotty while he was galloping up a hill. He was just having fun, btw.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Chisamba » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 pm

wrt the horse wanting to go , having the desire to do medium, i find if you make the collection difficult enough then the medium is a reward, and the horse is more enthusiastic about it. just a suggestion

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Re: Medium trot

Postby khall » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:17 am

Chisamba that is a very good point and a good way for me to think about building the desire. I will definitely play with it.

Rode today got canter HP with little issues, counter bending in canter which was difficult in March when Cedar was here. Rip is definitely stepping up his work load and it is being fairly easy for him. Now to develop that medium trot desire: so I played with RB to half steps.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Flight » Wed May 01, 2019 3:46 am

I think you have to try a few things to see what works. Both my horses don't have great movement. With the woman I have the clinics with, she was getting us to do piaffe steps into medium. Let the first steps out of the piaffe be elevated and then out into a medium. Not letting it get fast. Ding actually starts enjoying it. Lots of pats when they get it. I could get vid of it if you wanted. It might be easier under saddle though, I wouldn't be able to do it on the ground.
Norsey is a bit more of the passage into a medium, which helps stop him becoming a wheelbarrow.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Ryeissa » Wed May 01, 2019 2:46 pm

Flight wrote:I think you have to try a few things to see what works. .


I have been thinking about this a lot- I have had to be mindful of how long I collect before I ask for extension. For me it's more like a short side before I release, however I try to not just school mediums at a certain point in the arena. I am just using short side as an example of how long I ask for collection.
I found that doing 10m circles for my horse used to be more necessary but my horse is straighter so now I don't need the SI or 10m circles. I just collect and extend on a straight line.
Too much can shut down the horse, it all depends on how they respond

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Re: Medium trot

Postby piedmontfields » Wed May 01, 2019 2:55 pm

It's helpful to share different experiences and ideas.

I have used the short sides for opening up to a medium gait, and then return to collection through the corner. With a horse who does not have a natural lengthening, a big trot on the short side is an obtainable goal! Doing a medium across a diagonal is harder, though, as you do not have the support of the arena side--and it's more steps.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby musical comedy » Thu May 02, 2019 9:14 am

We sure do all have different experiences and ideas. Each horse is different too. My opinion is that I don't try to do medium at rising trot. A prequisite to a medium is a lengthening which is done rising. But then, I hate rising trot and only do it in warmup and the occasional stretch.

My current mare is not capable of producing good extended gaits, and isn't strong enough to try either. That said, I am very fortunate that she is a horse that responds to the seat and this is the only horse I've ridden that was so attuned to it. At present, I am doing just a few strides of lengthening at sitting trot and then back to regular trot, working on getting more engagement and amplitude. I've got one of those ground-bound movers. I think I wrote above that my trainer was really opening up the trot on the long diagonal, pushing to see just how much was in there. I don't think that would be his method with all horses, but it was with this specific horse. I'll ask him because he returns from Florida today, and I'm badly in need of a lesson.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu May 02, 2019 2:17 pm

Other exercises that help with medium trot carriage and expression:

Shoulder in from corner to R, short diagonal in medium steps, shoulder in (or renver, your choice) on the opposite wall. Rinse, repeat. Helps the medium in the same way that half-steps help the medium: the haunches are already more engaged in a (correct) shoulder-in vs. tracking along in normal gaits. Additionally, ending in shoulder-in or renver provides the collection back again. I've done a couple minutes of nothing but this exercise until they anticipate the medium and feel like they're charging up for it in the shoulder in.

20m circle in shoulder-in can help build muscle for this exercise as well.

For the horse that tends to bicycle behind/doesn't track up:

Start down diagonal line and ask for lengthening. Around X, start a leg yield along the diagonal line and keep asking for more lengthening. This might feel like running, but by getting the hind end to step across the midline you're linking the go-forward-now with also-you-have-to-track-up. Repeat as necessary to both directions. Eventual goal is that you can keep the same tempo and organization despite the lengthening and/or leg yield.

For the medium trot that "dies" before reaching the corner:
1) Medium down diagonal. At x, collect and perform two 10m circles to both directions, resume medium trot to corner.
2) Medium from corner down short diagonal to E or B; keep medium trot down the long side (and around the short side if you need it). Repeat as necessary.
3) Medium/collected trot transitions on a 20m circle

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Re: Medium trot

Postby piedmontfields » Thu May 02, 2019 3:30 pm

Love this list, Ponichiwa. I have found that renvers is kind of a secret weapon for us to use in that mixing way you describe.

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Re: Medium trot

Postby Ryeissa » Thu May 02, 2019 3:44 pm

yeah, at times I have had to circle, do SI, or HP as the horse needed what that exercise offered to fix the medium. My horse is very wiggly.
Its all the right approach and as I have said some months I need to work from posting, other "seasons" my horse is rolling his scapula over so I have to pay more attention to that in the medium. Now at this point I don't feel him slide slide to side as much as we do the work so I can start from collected trot with no accounting to fix straightness

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Re: Medium trot

Postby lorilu » Thu May 09, 2019 1:54 am

Khall, in the first post - what is "SW"? Loving this thread, thanks all.... we are also working on this. Of course part of the problem is ME not getting behind the motion.... working on that too. I think some of Ponichiwa's exercises will help ME get my balance back.. :)

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Re: Medium trot

Postby khall » Thu May 09, 2019 9:35 am

lorilu SW=Spanish Walk. This has helped Rip to learn about opening up his shoulder range, he has a very expressive SW. Cedar was saying we can use this as well to teach him about passage. Though this week I have got nothing done with Rip. After the stifle injections he has had to be up in the stall since Monday, out today finally so I am hoping to get him worked a bit though all kinds of stuff going on with landscapers here doing their annual bed maintenance, repair of the hay barn and other duties that have cropped up I have to attend to getting ready to host Jillian. She comes in this evening and we start with evening lecture tomorrow. Have some horses coming in tomorrow and then others Sunday. Lecture is all day Saturday and Sunday so will not get any work done this weekend. I feel so unprepared for lessons Monday and Tuesday!

Rye I don't use the lateral work for straightness but for engagement and to build the compression/collection. I find renvere the most useful in this, Cedar uses counter SI to encourage this and ask for more shoulder reach.

Ponichiwa some excellent exercises to try.

Do you guys have problems though with the lateral work backing the horse's off? With my TB the lateral work compressed/collected him then I could extend (yes true extensions) from that work. Rip not so much. I'm still not so sure about if it is me hesitating to "go there" with him knowing how he can be when asking for more oomph that is suppressing his mediums. Work in progress for sure!

On one of the other threads there was discussion on do we create our own reality? Do our expectations of our horses create/cause the issues? When someone else who does not have a history or background with the same horse could get on and not have the same issues. That has crossed my mind more than once with Rip! I do have to say though when I gage Rip to be in a more cooperative mood I am much more willing to press him than when he is in his testing self.

One clarification on Rip's shenanigans: he is not so much a true bucker but more airs above ground kind of guy. Mark had always said if he started those airs and I pushed him on he thought I would just get more of the same. Cedar feels a bit differently. Though Rip has not really shown what all he can do when Cedar has been here. He has been on his better behavior for her for the most part. I wished Rip was just a bucker I would be much more comfortable dealing with that than when he does! Thankfully his full shenanigans tend to be seen on the lunge line, for one thing I know him well enough I am not getting on him if he has that built up tension that causes the leaps. He leaps straight up all 4 feet off the ground, have had him go so high that his hooves were head height. Sometimes he will swap ends when he lands most often though it is just more leaps. Jillian got to see his full regalia one clinic and was quite stunned. Took video to show her colt starter to see if he wanted to throw a leg over him!


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