All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

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khall
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All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby khall » Sun May 26, 2019 2:59 pm

We've had some really good thoughts and discussions on the goals thread re canter, would love to expand some on this. From starting at the beginning to developing the quality of the canter as we go on in our work with our horses. It seems like there are several of us at the stage where we are asking more from our horses (me with Rip) and we all seem to be using similar tactics to improve our horses i.e. the trot canter transitions and counter canter work lateral work. It has been a bit of a long road with Rip to get to this point and I have had a strategy that I used to get here. I had to make him more rideable for one. He is a testing horse and I used the trot canter trot canter L and R transition to get him more obedient. Also developing the engagement has been a challenge. He is a heavy horse with low set neck (used to be anyway) that wanted to be more on his shoulders, so I have had to work many different ways to show him how he could change his way of going.

But at the very start of introducing canter to a young horse this is my go to: rising trot across the diagonal on the incorrect diagonal as I come to the corner sit a bit deeper and push with my seat in the down beat to push for the canter. I find riding on the incorrect diagonal puts me in the perfect position to ask for the canter with a green horse. The corner tends to put the horse a bit on the inside shoulder which is what I want at this time to get the correct lead. Then just let them roll along for a few strides whether it is on a circle or through the short side and eventually down the long side and transition to trot. I would rather do lots of transitions than to ask for long periods of canter with a youngster.

Once they start understanding canter US, then I want to start asking for good transitions and more balance in the canter strike off. Best way (rode with Jane Savoie years ago and this is her exercise) I found was to spiral in on the circle and as you spiral out ask for canter. This asks for a tiny bit of engagement as the inside hind leg steps under the mid line a bit and sets the horse up for a more balanced and beginnings of engagement in canter.

When we have established this bit of engagement is when I like to go to the straight lines TCT L and R transitions. I tend to do this out is a big field so I have a long line to work this exercise. This is also when I start the shallow serpentines for CC. I want to feel that my horse is really listening to my seat and I can easily change bend and get the new lead, usually within 3 steps of trot. This IMO is also when with the more talented horses you can start asking for changes. Rip was not there during this work.

So I had to step up my demands on him. Tsavo had a good exercise she shared about doing T C transitions within SI/SF so I started using this (had also progressed to W C W on the straight lines/bending lines as well). I also kept plugging away at the CC and he got stronger and better balanced in it to the point now he can on a bending line go T to CC. Asking for transitions within the lateral work period is a big step and takes strength on the horse's part to do this. I have found it has definitely helped Rip doing these exercises to encourage more engagement from him. That coupled with the piaffe work has made him stronger than he has ever been. His canter balance and engagement has improved tremendously which Cedar remarked upon during the March clinic. He now can do counter flexion in canter when he could not just last fall. With Jillian this month he easily showed how he kept the good balance and engagement as he moved from counter flexion to SF in true canter. Now to try in CC! His HP in the canter has also tremendously improved, so I feel I am on the right track with my big beast to get to the FCs this year.

Pitfalls and what I see in the problems with the canter work. Keeping the quality of the canter is difficult. Some horses want to 4 beat (Rip never did he would just break to trot!) and that is counter to engagement. I've dealt with it in other horses and they have to learn how to tilt the pelvis and engage a bit. I do think the spiral in and canter on the way out is a good way to encourage correct canter work. That and those good T C T transitions IMO really help to keep the quality of the canter. Then the SF into canter and eventually piaffe work to teach that pelvis rotation. I used piaffe on another horse I had who had a terrible canter, it helped her but she never did have as good of a canter as Rip does, but she had an awesome piaffe!

Canter plie' is another good one, though I don't use it very often.

Please share your thoughts and exercises on canter work. I think we've all worked with quite a few different horses over the years which brings different issues to the table. My OTTB g had the best canter when he was relaxed and with me and could easily do FCs with no effort. Some of the Iberians have a more climbing canter and can over collect, yet boy can they move sideways!! The WBs vary. Rip's dam actually has a very nice canter and was one of the easiest horses to start cantering with I ever started. Rip did not take after her:)

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby StraightForward » Sun May 26, 2019 4:44 pm

My work with Annabelle tracks pretty well with your first few paragraphs. She tends to fall out to the right, and fall in to the left, so we would use more of the spiraling out to the left to get her onto her right shoulder and standing up more. We were also using plie towards the end of last summer/fall (as I understand your meaning - turning early onto the long side and LY a few strides to the wall).

On the right lead I would think a little bit about cantering squares to get control of her shoulders and get her right leg more under. Of course these were very big, loose "squares" at her level of training, but I think that's a very effective tool that can be calibrated to the horse's level of training and fitness, all the way up to 1/4 pirouettes.

In walk and trot, a little HI around the corners to the left, and SI to the right (more LY at first, then introducing some bend) was also very helpful in getting her more aligned and getting the RH under, translating into better, straighter canter with more control.

We were just starting shallow CC loops and CC around the large outdoor arena in the fall when she got injured, but I could see how it was going to start benefiting her canter over time.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby piedmontfields » Sun May 26, 2019 5:57 pm

Here are some exercise ideas for riding in the 10-15 m strip of shade next to woods (because it is too damn hot out in the field or arena):

I did this both in trot and canter today (but with half pass in trot, just plies in canter):

Start in true canter, make it motor, than start adding 10 m circles down the line and go very forward when you return to the track. When this is good enough, do a tear drop to turn around into counter canter. You can add a little half pass here if you like. Check the forward. Line up the CC (use renvers as needed), then do a 15 m counter canter almost circle and then plie back to the track. Work the other lead. This is all about making good working patterns in a narrow strip of shade :-D

Don't get greedy if this is all hard/new---go for a couple of really good strides in a portion of the exercise, then change something to make it easier (ex. bigger circle, or back to true canter) or give a break as often as needed. I know this helps engagement because Em's canter gets bigger and more jumpy. Really fun stuff. She did great today. I was wiped after our 15 minutes of work! (then we did the 15 minute walk back to the barn).

I will mention that when you begin serious work next to woods in the heat, it is helpful to let the deer (who are resting) know that you are there when you start so that they can make a choice about continuing to hunker down in the shade or leaving in a hurry. :lol:

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Sun May 26, 2019 6:57 pm

I tend to have needed to do some "square" work at the canter, but that is because my horse was dropping the inside shoulder. Its a baby idea of the pirouette but it seems to be helping.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Sun May 26, 2019 10:19 pm

Thanks for starting this, khall.

Here’s a pic that shows what I am dealing with. I’m not even sure what is going on here, and it doesn’t happen all the time. I think it is from her downhill cowpony build. I hope she just needs more strength and flexibility. I am working on building strength with lots of trot canter trot transitions and we are getting to enjoy that exercise. Also, once a week hill/trail work. I’s like to do twice a week hill/trail but the weather is making it hard.

The second shot shows some promise and that’s what I am focusing on (the small good steps)!!

I am open to any comments/advice :)

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Mon May 27, 2019 12:47 am

Thanks so much for sharing! Have you thought about lifting your hands about two inches up!?

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Moutaineer » Mon May 27, 2019 12:53 am

I was coming on to the board to start a canter thread, so you beat me to it!

My takeaway from last week's clinic was that we've done a really solid job on the trot, and now need to live in canter for a while. My challenge is a bigger, more forward canter while maintaining (and improving) the adjustability and manoueverability that we have at the smaller canter--he tends to get motoring and strung out and away from me rather than staying under my seat and keeping his hind end underneath him. This requires a lot of core and good posture from me, and a lot of hind-end strength and coordination from him--back to that thing about isometric vs. aerobic fitness again.

So here's a simple but not easy exercise that we've been working on:

Pick up the canter, head straight down the long side track, leg yield (not half pass) 5 strides off the wall, ride straight 5 strides, leg yield 5 strides back to the wall, go straight.

Sounds easy, doesn't it? Sounded easy to the auditors who were sitting watching me, too! But I had a great deal of trouble with this exercise on the right lead. Leg yielding off the wall, no problem, going straight, no apparent problem, until... leg yielding back to the wall and making it there in 5 strides, yeah... not so much. We broke the canter, we took 7 strides to get back to the wall, we switched behind--you name it, we found a way to muff it up.

But once we got focused and got it correctly a few times we could see the value of it. You must count your strides out, you must go completely straight when you go straight, and you must maintain a steady rhythm and even stride back to the track. leg yield not half pass--nose in the direction you are going and straight between the shoulders, no changing weight or leg position, just keep it simple. He has to move willingly off your leg, whichever direction you ask.

For the horse, it's all about coordinating the hind legs, crossing one way, then crossing the other way, but with time to think and breathe. It's a great hind end strength builder without being too onerous. And it forces you as a rider to sit on your butt and use and switch between your outside and then new outside aids, and it throws in a bit of "better be going straight" in there too, so a really good FC prep exercise. If we can't do this well, there's not much hope of having the coordination to switch cleanly behind, really.

So, that's what we are working on!

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Moutaineer » Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 am

Demi, a take on what Rye suggested--try lifting your inside hand up so it is slightly higher than your outside hand--like an inch off level. This will help her lift her inside shoulder and give her somewhere to come through with the outside hind. It'll also change your balance a bit so you sit back and on your outside seatbone a little more.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Mon May 27, 2019 1:39 am

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Yes Rye, I used to ride Rocky with a higher hand and it “felt” right to me. The pic above was from before I started taking lessons. But my trainer had me lower my hands. She was quite adamant about it. I think there may be a couple of reasons she told me “LOWER YOUR HANDS!” all the time. I tend to over use the inside rein and by keeping it low, I can rest it on her to be sure I keep it steady. Also, Rocky curls easily and trainer says it’s best to keep a lower hand right now.

However, I think I will try to just lift my inside hand a bit like Mountaineer suggested. I will have to be very careful to just lift, and not try to flex her with it.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby StraightForward » Mon May 27, 2019 4:43 am

Demi, interesting that she had you drop your hands. IME, keeping the elbow soft enough to follow the contact and have a straight elbow to bit connection works best as a neutral position. From there, the horse can jump up and forward into the bridle more, rather than diving down, since the lower, straighter elbow tends to lock a little damp down the up/forward jump.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby piedmontfields » Mon May 27, 2019 11:12 am

Mountaineer, I'm going to try that today! I know it is not "easy". Anytime I have to count and be straight, it is real work.

Demi, my main comment is that I like that your mare has an open throat latch and is not too closed in front. How are walk-canter-walk transitions going?

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Chisamba » Mon May 27, 2019 11:35 am

piedmontfields wrote:Mountaineer, I'm going to try that today! I know it is not "easy". Anytime I have to count and be straight, it is real work.

Demi, my main comment is that I like that your mare has an open throat latch and is not too closed in front. How are walk-canter-walk transitions going?


Actually my opinion is that Deml's picture is proof that an open throat latch does not automatically mean that the hind end is stepping under.

Also it not about high hands or low hands, it's about the connection between hands and jaw. The riders hand should be elastically connected to the riders core via the elbow, and the bit should elastically connected to the horses withers via the jaw and neck.

From a couple of still pictures I believe your reins do not sufficiently influence her shoulder which then drop and block the hind end from stepping toward the nose. Jmho

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby musical comedy » Mon May 27, 2019 12:31 pm

My bolding.

Chisamba wrote:Also it not about high hands or low hands, it's about the connection between hands and jaw. The riders hand should be elastically connected to the riders core via the elbow, and the bit should elastically connected to the horses withers via the jaw and neck.
Spending less time worrying about having text book position and more time getting the horse through would be my comment. I'm not singling out Demi, but all of us.

I see a lot of posed frames on this forum. In spite of that, some horses are able to do higher level work. Eventually, the lack of correct connection will stifle progress. BTDT.

Are people still focusing at this btv stuff?

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Mon May 27, 2019 1:36 pm

Good comments! Thanks everyone for the input. LOTS to think about here.

The variety of really good comments about a couple of pictures reminds me of how complex this is. I know dressage isn’t rocket science, but with the wide range of horse types that we are working with, combined with the wide range of rider types, well, it boggles my little mind.

Straightforward, after sleeping on this, I remembered that my trainer made the exact same comment you did about a picture of Rocky lunging without sidereins. She noticed the dip in front to the whither. She recommended lowering the sidereins and shortening them a little (there were other pics with sidereins attached and you and my trainer liked the same positon of them).So I am guessing she is/was addressing that dip when she wants my hands low. At the same time, she doesn’t want my elbows locked, and she says the same thing that you do (and I agree) about soft elbows that follow the contact. It’s a balance that I’ve found easier on some horses but not so much with Rocky.

Piedmont, I’m glad you noticed the open throatlatch as I have to work a lot at balancing that aspect. Still, as Chisamba points out, an open throatlatch doesn’t automatically mean the hind end will come under. Again, there is a balancing act.

Chisamba I think you are absolutely right that I don’t sufficiently influence her shoulders. One of the reasons I almost quit dressage with her is that is is so effing hard to influence her shoulders. I know she can move her shoulders at lightning speeds with the greatest accuracy, because she is the image of her dam and sire who are both champion cutters. But they do it with no rein contact and, well....

MC, I totally agree with you about spending more time getting the horse through. And my trainer is working on that with me. But its a “chicken or egg first” thing. One can’t get the horse really through if the position of the rider is inhibiting. This has been on my mind a lot lately and so I have been doing more trail work. On the trail, I don’t focus on position. I am aware of it, but I don’t focus on it. But thats a whole nuther subject...

Thanks again for all the responses. I love it.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby exvet » Mon May 27, 2019 1:37 pm

Well said mc. It has been difficult for me to 'let go' of some well entrenched dogmas, not that I strive for incorrect riding/positioning, but everything is a process and always progressing. I think the key to all is instilling that true connection. A statement often made by my riding instructor is "I want to see him always finishing through over his topline and all the way down into the bridle." For me this helps me remember not to let go of the connection no matter where he might go for a moment. There can be no reward for trying to evade the contact or connection. My concerns of developing bad habits like riding with my hands or causing Junior to be compressed front to back have not occurred despite months of me making sure I always have a PROPER feel in both hands, equally. This is true for every gait including the canter. I need to upload, unfortunately a rather grainy clip of our more recent canter to show how we've progressed just from the show in April - much better balance, bearing and as a result far better quality to the gait. Even if I didn't have the video clip for proof, Junior's muscling and much more expressive gaits are telling me that we're on the right track.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby musical comedy » Mon May 27, 2019 2:03 pm

exvet wrote: A statement often made by my riding instructor is "I want to see him always finishing through over his topline and all the way down into the bridle."
Exactly. It's one of those things you have to feel and identify to know. Many people including myself have thought they felt it, but really didn't. I think I can feel it now when it's right, but likely when I progress more, I will realize what I have now isn't the ideal either. What I see being the biggest issue with most AA's is that horses are not coming into the bridle strongly enough. That's not going to feel elastic at first, but that's the next step. My current horse is limited in scope and gaits, but she comes into the contact and doesn't try to evade it. I can ride into the contact, and supple from there. Having your reins forward enough is important at this stage of training. It really helps prevent backward riding and other hand faults. jmo.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby piedmontfields » Mon May 27, 2019 2:58 pm

A short report after doing Mountaineer's exercise this AM. I did this in both trot and canter.

My first go round in trot I was very sloppy with the stride size (started with a big stride, had a couple shorter strides in the middle and a big stride on the 5th) and also bobbly with STOPPING GOING SIDEWAYS (which is always easier for us than going forward). Then it got better, but it took a lot of concentration to figure out how to make the 5 strides sideways very similar. It was actually easier to manage the strides in canter, but I was dealing with a "pause" or "gap" (loss of forward power) between the sideways and forward.

It's a very good exercise and quite humbling! There is a lot in common in the exercise with working on making one's long side of the arena a very consistent number of strides in a certain gait, but it upped the ante to keep this accuracy with sideways strides, too.

p.s. I should always ride before 9 am. It is so pleasant out!

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Mon May 27, 2019 7:39 pm

demi do you have any video? you can PM me too if you prefer. not everyone is so kind here.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Mon May 27, 2019 7:55 pm

I may try to post some video, Rye. I do stretch her at trot and started looking at the most recent video (a week or so ago) to get screenshots. I got sidetracked trying to get a sequence of screenshots showing the canter depart from trot. I'm STILL working on it :oops: I got a good sequence but i put it in a work doc so I could study it and I don't know if I can somehow post that.

I'd like to at least post some of the screenshots but i have to email them to myself and then post them from my tablet...I'm not very tech savy.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Flight » Mon May 27, 2019 10:02 pm

I think it's part of the whole process of getting the hind legs more under and the more sitting in all your work not just canter? But yes, when you pause on that part of the stride in canter, it's a clear way of seeing where they are at! I'm pretty sure I delete all my photos of that phase :D Pirouette work (in w/t/c) has helped us, haunches in on a big circle. When I start feeling them drop down or get heavy or fast I just do a bit of HI on a circle or piri so I don't have to do too much with my hands etc.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Mon May 27, 2019 10:07 pm

demi wrote:I may try to post some video, Rye. I do stretch her at trot and started looking at the most recent video (a week or so ago) to get screenshots. I got sidetracked trying to get a sequence of screenshots showing the canter depart from trot. I'm STILL working on it :oops: I got a good sequence but i put it in a work doc so I could study it and I don't know if I can somehow post that.

I'd like to at least post some of the screenshots but i have to email them to myself and then post them from my tablet...I'm not very tech savy.


sure, I get it..... does she stretch down ok? I guess I'm after what is her natural carriage and what is perhaps disharmony from not understanding what you want. It will help to troubleshoot having some more reference points.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby exvet » Mon May 27, 2019 11:56 pm

Having your reins forward enough is important at this stage of training. It really helps prevent backward riding and other hand faults. jmo.

Yes and I think of it as hands forward with short reins and being able to and within the moment maintain that type of connection no matter where the horse tries to go with it's head/poll. If it means going shorter with the rein because the horse starts evading or backing off the connection or If it requires more leg to push your horse into it well so-be-it but not a backing off of the rein aid/connection. In the beginning of Junior's training this caused me to at times lean forward; which initially worried me especially when I saw pictures. Relaxing the connection is done as a reward for true connection and then we're just talking very very small adjustments = not creating a vacancy or emptiness or loose connection (ie, slack in the rein). I think Junior is really starting to grasp the correct concept now; and my additional evidence, especially at the canter, is I'm able to maintain a proper position which only improves our balance and my influence of his hind end. Without teaching him correct connection and proper throughness with diligence how do you really recycle the energy while maintaining the proper bearing?

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Tue May 28, 2019 12:23 am

I think we should consider bit acceptance first.... The horse needs to go freely forward on a light rein at this stage.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby exvet » Tue May 28, 2019 12:58 am

I guess I don't see bit acceptance, connection and developing throughness as each piece in a vacuum. Perhaps I don't understand the point that is being made? If a horse is developing canter I assume that there is at least bit acceptance even if true connection hasn't been solidified but is presumably being trained.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Tue May 28, 2019 2:33 am

Image

I messed around for hours trying to get screenshots, then resizing 140KB or less to post. I finally ended up posting them to facebook and reposting this one here. There are more but I can't deal with computers anymore today!

I posted this one because I think it shows a better moment than the previous pictures. As some have pointed out, it's a process of separating out the good stuff from the not so good stuff...or something like that! I think it is valuable to post pictures (and not only the good ones ;). As long as we don't try to draw hard and fast conclusions from a single shot or two, we can use pics as an aid to our posts.

I have found many of the things people have already posted on this thread to be helpful. Comments about my posts, and comments in general.

I had a nice ride today with what I thought were some good trot canter trot transitions. Tomorrow is trail day :D and then I'll video on Wednesdya or Thursday. I think I can get and post screenshots a lot easier now.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Tue May 28, 2019 11:41 am

exvet wrote:I guess I don't see bit acceptance, connection and developing throughness as each piece in a vacuum. Perhaps I don't understand the point that is being made? If a horse is developing canter I assume that there is at least bit acceptance even if true connection hasn't been solidified but is presumably being trained.


this is an intro level horse right not, that that it's a bad thing. its just where they are at based on what the pics show.

If the horse is tense and not moving freely there is no hope if good back to front connection. Asking for more will make the horse confused and more bunched up.
I view this as a basic go and accept the bit around the corners of the mouth. Then you can start to influence.
If this was my horse I would take some time with simple tasks then refine once the kinks are out. JMHO.

Once the horse develops a longer more freer look in a light contact it won't take long to get to training and 1st.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby mari » Tue May 28, 2019 12:48 pm

Some really good ideas on this thread. Our canter was our best gait some months back, I hated riding trot. And suddenly (probably not actually suddenly but that is how it feels) the trot is completely lovely and canter has gone to hell. We will be working hard on canter the next few weeks, will check in here often :)
The aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory, but progress. ~ Joseph Joubert

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Tue May 28, 2019 2:35 pm

Mari, I like the quote under your post about the aim of argument or discussion.

I just posted a picture and comment meant for this thread but I put it in the goals thread. Duh, but I don’t have time to figure out how to move it right now.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby khall » Tue May 28, 2019 2:41 pm

Interesting the canter discussion has taken a turn into contact discussion. I do agree good contact with feel is very important and one of the hardest things to develop for sure. MC questioning if everyone is still worrying about the BTV stuff, yes I do. It was a problem with Rip earlier on where he would roll up in the front way too easily and not move through himself. So yes I do concern myself with BTV, but I also don't want to ride a braced horse at the same time I do not want to ride a horse with a compressed neck broken at C3 C4 (which is difficult to correct). That is why I spend a good bit of time in hand educating my horses to the bit and bridle using jaw flexions and lateral releases (stelling) in their education. It helps for them to have some understanding before I get on about the action of the bridle. Riding is still very important of course.

My question to those of you contributing to this conversation is: what kind of exercises do you do to teach the horse about engaging the thoracic sling and lifting from the base of the neck?

For me it is lateral work, in particular counter SI and renvere and I do have to use the reins to show Rip about lifting up and out at times. There is a definite upward movement with the hand, very light, that encourages him to lift from the base and reach out to the bridle. Mark started the idea in hand years ago and I have used it US now for awhile. This really helped Rip to lift and be able to engage more behind. We do use something similar with Juliet as well, she wants to get too heavy and lay on you staying on her forehand. If you do an aret to remind her to stay up and out makes all the difference in the world to her movement.

Looking at the pictures that demi has shared I would be using the spiral in and spiral out to canter exercise to get her to go out with the neck and bend around a bit more. Helps with leaning too much on the inside shoulder and encourages a bit of engagement and lateral bending to help her be better balanced in the canter. Do the spiral out in a bit of SF is how I would approach it.

IMO any horse who is wanting to be on the inside fore during canter I would be yielding them to the outside in some exercise, whether the spiral or for more advanced horses the plie' canter to encourage that shift to the outside shoulder. For a horse who wants to fall in with the haunches I would be doing counter flexion to counter bending to get the shoulders back in line. Did this in Spain with the gelding I rode (per the instructor there) who wanted to carry his haunches R in the R lead. Counter bending in true canter on the 20 m circle and by the end of the four days I rode him he was straight.

It really goes back to shoulder control, being able to mobilize the shoulders and put them in the proper position for the best balance of the horse. I use my thigh and knee to help align the shoulders of the horse. The reins do help, especially the outside rein, but the thigh and knee are very important in helping to ride the shoulders of the horse.

So interesting discussion, not able to ride Rip right now. The tooth extraction was pretty hard on him, the sutures did not hold so he has a big cavity that has to granulate in before I can put a bit back in his mouth. Having to flush it with warm salt water twice daily.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Tue May 28, 2019 3:46 pm

khall wrote:My question to those of you contributing to this conversation is: what kind of exercises do you do to teach the horse about engaging the thoracic sling and lifting from the base of the neck? y.


Depends on where the horse is and what they know. The best I have found is rein back a 1/2 step only, or a slow walk (Not collected, way before that).

The key is working slowly so they don't fall laterally or longitudinally. If the feet move to fast they can't balance.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue May 28, 2019 4:09 pm

khall wrote:My question to those of you contributing to this conversation is: what kind of exercises do you do to teach the horse about engaging the thoracic sling and lifting from the base of the neck?


I think canter is the easiest gait to get across the need to lift and carry the "brisket" all on their own. And it's something you can start relatively early in the horse's riding career.

Green horse exercises:
- Spiral in on a circle in trot to about a 15-18 m circle (your choice, depending on horse's balance and abilities). Begin to spiral out and ask for upwards transition into canter during spiral out. Maintain spiral out to 20m (or larger, of you have space available). Installs the beginnings of stepping under their center of gravity with the inside hind and lifting/moving shoulders out of the way.

- Baby leg yield from quarterline to wall in canter. Same benefits as above. Bonus harder variation: perform in shoulder-fore (plie). Can fry brains if you hold too long.

- Stepping into the canter from a true swinging trot, not a scramble. Very simple to say, harder to execute, but it's what begins the horse's education re: their own responsibility for maintaining their uphill balance.

More advanced:
- The 20m circle with clear release of reins across centerline is a great exercise for testing if you have the ability to keep the sling up and engaged. I do this pretty frequently with my horses to enforce the expectation that they do have to carry themselves. Variations: can play with different degrees of collection in the canter.

- Stretchy trot/canter transitions on a circle

- Canter halfpass to leg yield zig-zag. During the leg yield steps, consciously ask for a longer/lower neck posture while keeping the jump in the canter.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby piedmontfields » Tue May 28, 2019 10:23 pm

Ponichiwa wrote:I think canter is the easiest gait to get across the need to lift and carry the "brisket" all on their own.


Thank you for this. Made a Monday-kind-of-Tuesday for me! (we in the US had a rare national holiday on Monday)

Also: in my less than experienced opinion, if you want to advance a horse beyond 1st level, you need to canter---a lot. It helps the trot, it helps the canter, it helps connection, and it helps the heart (and joy) of a horse. I mentioned this just because I've noticed that a number of folks who do not advance with the training of their horse simply never canter more than a couple of circles at a time.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby blob » Wed May 29, 2019 1:22 am

Agree it's interesting that thread has become very much about contact and connection. The thread title says engagement for collection. But before that comes forward into steady connection. I think many of us might have horses that aren't ready for collection or the type of engagement that leads to collection. And in these cases getting the right connection is critical.

I also agree with Piedmontfields that one really must be able to canter a lot to improve the canter and to improve the other work as well. When MM and I were starting to move towards second level work, that's when canter work felt the hardest for me. As I was trying to introduce an actual collected canter, all canter work got harder. Even cantering around the arena in a forward, connected canter was a lot of work. And there were times when it felt like the canter I got was not very malleable. It might be forward and uphill and look perfectly through, but I really did not have a lot of lateral suppleness in it. I had to really push past this period and make us do lots of canter work even though it just always felt like a struggle. Eventually, of course that shifted and now my rides include much, much more canter work than trot work.


One of the things I am struggling with currently in the canter is getting the hind legs quick enough in very collected canter. My instructor has often said that the outside hind should feel like it's on a trampoline. We've had moments of getting that truly wonderful trampoline feeling. but it's hard to create and maintain.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 29, 2019 2:46 am

I agree with lots of canter, but I also think transitions within the gait are an excellent test of the connection as well as excellent development of top line. I wish they had canter stretch circles, not trot stretch circles in tests. It's a much better test of stretch and carriage.

I also thing transitions in gait are far more important than any lateral work in canter. Lateral work is fun but not necessarily helpful in the development of carriage, muscling or collection. Maybe I am too traditional.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby khall » Wed May 29, 2019 3:34 am

For me all of the work depends on the individual horse. What one needs another would not benefit from.

For my particular horse Rip he is big and strong but not particularly supple or elastic, so we do lateral work to build that suppleness which also builds the strength and straightness he needs for engagement and collection. But we also use piaffe work to build strength and RB and skipping gaits to build the ability to collect. There are so many exercises out there to use to help our horses progress and develop. Basically why I started this thread, to share these exercises that we have used in our work with our horses as we develop them in canter. From the very beginning when we first start our canter program to the middle where we are improving and developing the horse's understanding (both ponichiwa and I wrote about the spiral out to canter) to actually engaging and collecting them. Of which there is a spectrum of collection, from just the very beginning up to the GP level of which I don't think any of us are at right now.

I use transitions to build Rip's ride ability and connection to my seat and obedience to my aids, but it also builds strength in him. Particularly when I skip gaits or go even further like RB to canter. I am finding how difficult lateral work in the canter is for Rip or was. Even just asking for simple counter flexion was hard for him initially, but through all the work we have done now he finds it much easier. I keep adding to his resume' as we keep trying different exercises and find them easier as the work progresses. I don't want to discount any particular exercise since I feel for the most part they all have a part in developing my horses. The only one I question is the LY type work in canter with no bend, not the canter plie' but the exercise Mountaineer posted about. Not fond of no bend in lateral work, but that is my preference. I do like the canter HP to plie' canter that ponichiwa wrote about.

Two other exercises that I have used but not recently are canter 20 m circle, just before crossing CL trot, at CL change out of circle to 10 m trot circle, cross CL change back and canter again 20 m circle. Used this long ago when I rode with an I judge (before the S came about).

The second one is LY with bend (in a SF position) from QL to side line in trot, upon reaching side line canter. This is a Ritter exercise.

All of these exercises from transitions to lateral work build the horse's strength and engagement, but lateral work straightens the horse which is imperative for collection. We must be able to mobilize the shoulders to be able to straighten the horse so he can collect, we must have control over their 4 corners as I call it so we can influence them in their work. We do that by lateral work.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby chantal » Wed May 29, 2019 11:15 am

Such a great read, thank you for starting this thread. I am going to try the spiraling exercise to help us with our right lead canter.

One of the things from my clinic (as mentioned above) was having the reins short enough to have influence but putting the hands forward. If I drop the connection, the shoulder is gone, more so right but both sides.

I love the idea of the LY exercise down the long side Moutaineer. Will keep that in mind for later when we are more developed.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby blob » Wed May 29, 2019 11:58 am

Chisamba wrote:I agree with lots of canter, but I also think transitions within the gait are an excellent test of the connection as well as excellent development of top line. I wish they had canter stretch circles, not trot stretch circles in tests. It's a much better test of stretch and carriage.



I think canter stretch is so incredibly useful. So often a horse that can canter around just find in a working frame either won't stretch down when offered or loses rhythm/breaks when coming in or out of stretch.

This is a good reminder to use it more often.

I know some of the eventing dressage tests include a canter stretch circle, though I'm not sure at which levels it's included. It would be nice if once the trot stretch circle is phased out after first level, a canter stretch would be added.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Wed May 29, 2019 12:25 pm

I think its advanced/Rolex. since its a test of self carriage you won't see it in the earlier levels. Advanced eventing= third level dressage

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Wed May 29, 2019 1:09 pm

khall wrote:....
For me it is lateral work, in particular counter SI and renvere and I do have to use the reins to show Rip about lifting up and out at times. There is a definite upward movement with the hand, very light, that encourages him to lift from the base and reach out to the bridle. Mark started the idea in hand years ago and I have used it US now for awhile. This really helped Rip to lift and be able to engage more behind. We do use something similar with Juliet as well, she wants to get too heavy and lay on you staying on her forehand. If you do an aret to remind her to stay up and out makes all the difference in the world to her movement.

Looking at the pictures that demi has shared I would be using the spiral in and spiral out to canter exercise to get her to go out with the neck and bend around a bit more. Helps with leaning too much on the inside shoulder and encourages a bit of engagement and lateral bending to help her be better balanced in the canter. Do the spiral out in a bit of SF is how I would approach it.

....


Interestingly, my trainer has been working Rocky and me a lot on renvers, at trot mostly but also at walk. When I first started with her about a year and a half ago, I was giving Rocky brief upward lifts of my hands to help her get off the forehand. Trainer let me do it for a while, and even showed me a different way of doing it, but now she wants my hands quiet and low. She may just be concentrating on my issues for the time.

The spiral in and out at canter is really hard for me but that probably means I need to work on it!!

I have to process this stuff slowly in my mind before I just start doing it on the horse. Otherwise I tend to confuse the poor horse. I really like reading this thread even though I am in the early stages of canter with Rocky.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Wed May 29, 2019 1:17 pm

Chisamba wrote:...

I also thing transitions in gait are far more important than any lateral work in canter. Lateral work is fun but not necessarily helpful in the development of carriage, muscling or collection. Maybe I am too traditional.
...


I think R. Klimke said this too. Or maybe it was Balkenhal. It makes a lot of sense. I am doing lots of trot-canter transitions and that’s going to be the major part of my work for a while, till I can notice her building in strenght. Hopefully I’ll be able to add some new pictures in a couple of months that show a difference.

I hope others will contribute pics to this thread.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby exvet » Wed May 29, 2019 2:15 pm

Unfortunately I'm still having technical difficulty with getting pictures and videos loaded. Yesterday I had a lesson and we hit a bit of a wall. It was interesting in that from the moment I hooked up the truck and trailer, Junior was making it clear he didn't want to go. He was fine in the warm up but kind of grabby with his mouth and braced. He had Monday off because I had to work. We worked on a fair amount of canter, starting some easy counter canter work as well as lots and lots of transitions within the gait at the trot on Sunday which I thought went well; so, I'm not sure where his reticence was coming from other than he's 5 and been making huge strides in improving and then...........the wall was there. It became clear that the initial plan for the lesson was going to have to change and the focus was back to the canter momentum, accepting the bit and most importantly having him come through OVER HIS BACK and finishing into the bridle properly. So for the better part of the hour, I worked on keeping his canter momentum slow with plenty of jump in the canter. For Junior jump in the canter is easy. He's very expressive in a good way with a strong hind end. The hitch in the get along is convincing him that he is not to use the base of his neck as his ever loving fulcrum point but to relax and reach over his back. To do this he needs to raise his shoulder girdle or thoracic sling as some of you call it. He can't do this if he's not being true to the bridle and bit.

We succeeded in getting what was desired by doing a couple of things, establishing that slow but pure (3 beat) and still power forward canter by asking him to stretch into the hand. In order for us to do this I had to have him on my seat and that means completely on my seat and separate my hands from my seat (thank goodness for my work out routine) and repeatedly ask him to stretch into the contact in a way that lowered his neck and pushed his ears forward and downward WITHOUT compressing his neck NOR evading the contact or barrelling through my hands. My riding instructor said that it was the first time she saw all of the muscles in his neck contracting properly and elongating properly - no harness breeding tendencies showing through. The other thing we discovered in my last lesson (so over the week I worked on it) and we used it to our advantage yesterday is sitting trot. Junior really seems to respond to my seat and raise his wither when I sit the trot and really ask for some engagement (appropriate for his level of fitness and training). Combining a very nice forward activated trot with proper cadence and having that wither up with Junior finishing all the way into the hand and then asking for the canter depart in a way that had him starting with the proper momentum, keeping it there with my seat and then asking him to stretch down and into my hand seemed to begin to have some meaning to him. The key was that if I didn't have the proper connection and throughness over the back I wasn't going to ask for the canter depart. The other key was once we achieved our goal he wanted to break so I had to keep the proper forward without introducing tension (because tension then meant that he'd try to take over using the base of his neck). There were a couple of times I had to stop him dead in his tracks and use renvers to get him to accept the bit, re-balance his momentum back behind his withers - re-visiting some our earlier tendencies to not want to move forward into the type of a contact that really proves he's moving into the bridle all the way through creating that true circle of energy. We of course did this in both directions finding it a bit more challenging but still improving even on his hollow side. Yesterday's lesson simply told me that we're going to be staying 'here' for a few weeks or more.

I've been introducing lateral work at the walk over a couple of months and now the trot too. He's not far enough along to do this at the canter; but, it's time to make it a natural idea at the trot. I guess my point is that Junior is really just a 'first' level kind of pony yet we're still working on acceptance of the bit (very fundamental basics), coming through over his back and also working on lateral and longitudinal suppleness. His genetics make him want to use the base of his neck and chest to control everything. As we continue to take two steps forward and the one step back along on our journey my goal will continue to be 'trying to override' his genetic tendencies using gymnastics and suppling exercises to show him he can do it differently, convincing him that my way is easier in the long run and hopefully develop 'this idea' as a natural go to or thought process. For years I was paralyzed by the fear of making a horse BTV and/or riding front to back; but, no more. As long as I have an educated eye on the ground and focus on what I feel underneath me I have abandoned that fear. This time around I'm riding for that constant feeling of channeling the energy and having the right amount of weight in my hand and right momentum and balance going forward. I will not back off on the contact if I get too much in the hand or if I don't feel enough in the hand. I will instead use my seat to balance him and keep him seeking and accepting the hand that is there telling him where he needs to be and how supple he needs to be. Letting go of this fear has been both liberating and empowering. I'm thinking of starting an album of conformation shots that I take same views every 8 weeks - his muscling as well as his way of going will be the true judge of my methods.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby demi » Wed May 29, 2019 7:00 pm

Loved your post exvet. Clear and thorough explanations. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby exvet » Wed May 29, 2019 7:40 pm

Thank you demi. I was afraid it might be confusing. Here is a video clip from a lesson a few weeks ago. It may help demonstrate more of what I'm trying to go for with respect to momentum. I wasn't yet trying to get Junior to stretch down but was trying to get him to stay soft in the jaw. The video is terrible quality and poor resolution but my instructor's voice does give some context to what I've been trying to say here and do in the video. I get far better canter departs when I prepare with a nice relaxed but forward trot with Junior reaching well and staying connected through the bridle (honest). This clip caught me fighting a little with him on the first attempt at a depart but once into the canter it's showing better balance and momentum. He's not diving into my hands or on his shoulders and is less of a freight train (he's even better now a few weeks down the road from this clip). He shows in this clip in the two canter departs that he still wants to use the base of his neck to go into the depart and not raise through the withers moving well over his back but that's what we are now working through and getting some really nice, correct departs and canter on the circle with good stretch over the back and down into the hand..........the next quest is to keep that going down the long sides.

https://youtu.be/RaYG7i4_vwc

For comparison here is a clip I shared on another thread from a show in April. I can't seem to edit the video to just show Junior's canter; so, I apologize forcing everyone to go through the length of the test to get to the canter segment. It was definitely less balanced and more 'rushy' back then. He was definitely diving more onto his forehand and shoulders, using the base of his neck. He was more resistant to the contact and giving me a wee bit of the middle hoof to my insistence to finish into the bridle.

https://youtu.be/6xBUhkjcutw

When he gets this way, I don't back off (hand/feel in the reins). I try to use exercises and transitions to get him to establish better balance and thus better quality of his gait all the while maintaining specific demands and expectations of contact.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Wed May 29, 2019 9:11 pm

Exvet the first one is really granny- is it just my computer? I can't make out much. sorry :(

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby exvet » Wed May 29, 2019 10:13 pm

Yes, as I stated in my post it's very poor resolution but there is sound and you can hear my instructor and at least I can see the horse in terms of his bearing and his speed/momentum/cadence. If it's not helpful to you I'm sorry but it's the best I can do.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu May 30, 2019 1:13 pm

Chisamba wrote:I also thing transitions in gait are far more important than any lateral work in canter. Lateral work is fun but not necessarily helpful in the development of carriage, muscling or collection. Maybe I am too traditional.


I had this on the brain when I was riding Kiwi yesterday. I have noticed that half pass feels a bit like an apex exercise similar to tempi changes; I don't half pass to improve anything and often need to refresh the underlying gait via circles/shoulder-in/leg yield to keep the quality up. However, the same isn't true for shoulder-in and canter leg-yield (if we're calling those lateral work... some people don't): both by dint of being done well improve the underlying gait.

And maybe the same is true for half pass for people who are very good at half pass; I'm not one.

Some more unrelated thoughts/canter exercises:

Anyway, I had a great ride playing around with the following canter exercise:
- Half pass from rail to centerline
- Leg yield back to rail in shoulder-fore positioning
- Medium canter around short side in shoulder-fore positioning
Repeat.

By about the third repetition on each lead, I had a really delightful energetic collected canter that stayed up and open in the half pass work.

I also neglected to mention that I do a TON of counter canter/serpentine work with my horses. I love counter canter because the exercise gives me a "way in" to tuck in the outside hind underneath our center of gravity, and really improves the quality of the canter. I used to worry that I wouldn't be able to get a good flying change if I over-did the counter canter. Well. Try renvers in counter canter, and you'll learn that there's a flying change in almost any horse.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu May 30, 2019 1:38 pm

Lateral work in the canter is more limited since we can't do full SI.... I will have to think on the comment of lateral work not being helpful at the canter. I like to place the ribcage L and R so although I'm not actually doing "lateral work" I'm tending to the same ideas (ie- why we even do lateral work in the first place)

I'm of the school of thought that I address both lat/long aspects of the horse at all times, but doing lateral movements specifically may or may not be how I accomplish that.

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby Chisamba » Thu May 30, 2019 2:46 pm

I am fairly certain a gait and anatomy specialist could explain this better but the horse jumps in the canter which is a the beat gait. Jumping sideways requires no cross over, no step under, not added balance. If you as a rider are good enough to place shoulders hips and control balance going sideways, you don't need the sideways to develop balance.

If you enjoy it and find benefit I am not going to be critical, having fun with your horse is key, enjoying the journey is prime consideration, but from a "scholarly" perspective lateral work in walk and canter do not have the same benefits as it does in the trot of improving balance and can have the negative effect of challenging rhythm. It can be useful in simply getting a better response off the leg laterally especially with a horse that likes to accelerate every time you apply lateral aids

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby khall » Thu May 30, 2019 4:40 pm

IMO the lateral work in canter is about encouraging engagement (as long as the canter quality is not disturbed) so renvere in CC is going to target the outside hind leg of the horse. HI too encourages the outside hind leg to become more engaged (why in Spain they had me ride HI in canter before changes and CP) SF of course encourages the inside hind to step more toward CL (center line) which is what engagement is about. Asking the hind legs independently to step to CL to narrow the base and encourage the horse to stay more under with the hind legs.

Now I agree that the canter gait itself encourages the rotation of the pelvis and lift of the thoracic sling as long as the gait is pure and in balance. Why we have always been told that the canter improves the trot. But I definitely use lateral work in the canter to improve Rip's strength and quality of canter. Just like CC does. I also agree that lateral work and even CC can be challenging to keep the quality of the canter and riders should be mindful of this. Get out of the movement or exercise if the canter quality is suffering. That was drilled into me early on in my dressage career. Refresh the gait and then revisit the exercise.

The horses I tend to ride have the opposite response to lateral aids, they want to slow down. It's hard work!

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Re: All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

Postby blob » Thu May 30, 2019 4:51 pm

lateral work in the canter can improve the quality of the gait for me on MM, ifF the lateral work helps get the outside hind under, which it often can. Of course, one doesn't NEED lateral work to get the outside hind other, but often it helps/makes it possible for me to do that.

The other thing i like about lateral work in the canter is that it acts as a test for me. Along with transitions within the canter and changes of frame, light lateral work is a way for me to test if my horse is actually through and is responsive to my aids. It's also a test for me--am I able to distinguish my lateral aids/positioning from my aids/positioning for a flying change or for maintaining counter canter. The answer of course should be yes, but canter lateral work is a good check for me.

all the above to say that I think canter lateral work is very useful for the rider (or at least for me as a rider). I agree it may not gymnasticize the horse the same way trot lateral work does. But if it improves my ability to ride accurately and the responsiveness, then it is worth it. Also by helping me ride better, it is having a positive impact on the horse's way of going.


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