Trainers riding through you.

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:04 pm

Sounds like a few of you like this method? My trainer does that. Do I like it? Yes and No. Sometimes I feel like what and when he tells me to do something it isn't the right thing or time. I think he may not give me credit for knowing and feeling something. In my lessons, there is constant remarking the whole time. I have watched video lessons from other bnt where the rider goes round and round and the trainer might say 'good' 'super' or a little more of this/that. I don't go for more than a couple steps without a correction given. Maybe it's just my sucky riding or maybe he does that to all students. I haven't watched him teach anyone else for a long time.

I have improved some stuff on my own, using my own 'unorthodox' methods that he wouldn't like. He sees the improvement, but doesn't know how I got it. He probably takes credit for it.

No trainer is perfect. You have to take the good, and leave the bad.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:24 pm

No, I need specific feed back

ie- activate muscle X in your left lower ab to result in horse doing Y. Can you feel horse doing Y? yes or no.


or "you horse is hanging on the outside rein so we are doing haunches in to get the horse to stretch the outside of the body. I want you to open the outside hip and shoulder to accomplish this, do you feel this improvement?

I train in biomechanics and I get specific directions and I need to FEEL the results and know what I activated to get these results

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Flight » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:50 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by riding through you? Like giving constant instructions?

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:15 am

Flight, the topic was mentioned in another recent thread here, so I thought I'd give it a thread. The best I can explain it is that the trainer talks to you with the details as though they were riding the horse. But yes, there would be constant dialog.

Josette
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Josette » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:37 am

I get very focused when I ride on what I feel to the point of tuning out my surroundings. If someone gave me very short and quick corrections while riding - that might work for me but the timing part as you described would be critical. I need to feel when the timing is correct to do some task and not just do it when told. Plus I miss out on information if the trainer continues talking on some concept. I process those details better during a walk break when I can ask questions - not during the ride. Likewise, I find it more helpful if an exercise is described before I start riding. I guess I can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby exvet » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:26 am

I am a kinesthetic learner so someone who is able to verbalize and ride through me gives me the best opportunity to learn IF THEY REALLY DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. I've ridden many horses over many years. When it's young or green horses, in all honesty, I often make the correction, feel what is going on, etc before or by the time they say anything. This helps me establish if they really do know what they're talking about and are more walk than talk. I've certainly ridden with people who really can't/don't have that same ability and I just tune out their constant chatter. What's really funny, imo, is one of the best I've ridden with and 'rides through me' types that gives me great feedback is a German lady who speaks very little English. It's more or less a type of observation and assistance that transcends language barriers. I don't speak/understand German. Of course you don't have to believe me. She even tells me that I don't ride like most Americans, LOL............so maybe she just knows how to play to my ego and I know more German than I realize ;)

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:01 pm

I like it when a trainer can “ride through me”. But agree that THEY REALLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT! It’s like finding any good trainer, you’re lucky when you find one.

Even more than just knowing what they are talking about, I think the trainers that could ride through me, were also able to connect with me and my horse on a non verbal level. After we had been working together for about 6 months, my current trainer mentioned that I was already starting to do what she was thinking before she even told me to do it. The fact that she could see small things that I was doing told me that she was really tuned in. To ride through someone, the trainer needs to be tuned in and following every step, like Gunnar did in ElaPae’s lesson. That way, the timing of the instructions can happen at exactly the right moment. And the student needs to be really tuned into the trainer for the timing to work.

Additionally, there needs to be a real trust among horse, rider, and trainer for this to work. This can be just a “chemistry” that sometimes happens even the first time all three work together. Sometimes the chemistry develops over time. If don’t completely trust the trainer, and they are continually giving instructions, I just end up tuning them out, as others have mentioned.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:22 pm

I don’t think there needs to be constant verbal instruction given in order for the trainer to ride through me. In fact, lots of chatter can be distracting. There just needs to be a constant connection between the rider and trainer. A lot of stuff goes on non-verbally when when the trainer is on foot in the arena, like Gunnar with ElaPae, for example.

My trainer sometimes is on foot walking around in the arena, watching and teaching me. And sometimes even on another horse. Last Tuesday, she showed me the different things she was doing to get the horse on the outside rein (right rein in my case) while she was riding beside me on another horse. She told me sometimes, “I’m exaggerating, but watch this”. She would explain, demonstrate, and then watch me. Not that the whole lesson was like that, and she only rides another horse once in a while, but I think that kind of instruction enhances the ability of the trainer to ride through the student

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby exvet » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:46 pm

Thank you demi, you put it in writing much better than I could verbalize. What you are describing is much the same for me, both when it's right and also when it's not. I have been very fortunate to have stumbled on to some good riding instructors whose strengths were what I needed at the time. There is a definite chemistry that is either there or it's not. I also agree that the ability to ride through someone doesn't equate to a verbal monologue for every breath or step.

I have ridden with someone in clinics a few times who I finally concluded that despite her genetics/heritage, education and well deserved accomplishments simply could not ride through me. What it came down to (and even she admitted it) was that she wasn't as well acquainted with green/young/recently backed horses and simply couldn't 'be there in the moment' despite her skills. She would provide ongoing 'guidance' but it wasn't at all in sync with what I was feeling and had I followed it I would have been hurt. We were both quite frustrated and agreed to amicably part ways. She is still one I would seek out to get polished on my biomechanics and 'equitation' on a finished horse which she agreed is her strength. Her father on the other hand was very well versed with young, very green horses.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:59 pm

demi wrote:I don’t think there needs to be constant verbal instruction given in order for the trainer to ride through me. In fact, lots of chatter can be distracting.
If the work isn't as correct as the trainer feels it should be, then there is going to be dialog. Maybe I'm not as good as others and I need more correcting. My trainer has his faults as they all do, but he doesn't let anything slide. There is no 'good' when it isn't good.

I would not like it if my trainer was on a horse giving a lesson, even if it was just once in a while. I want my trainer's full attention at all times, and I get it.

khall
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2515
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:47 am

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby khall » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:32 pm

I absolutely know what it feels like to have a trainer ride through you. The only time that has occurred was with Mark and it took several years to get to that point. Towards the end of our time together Mark would sit up on the hill and instruct me in the arena (the viewing for my arena is up above the fence line for my arena, 3 rail Ramm fence). I could feel exactly what Mark wanted to happen and be able to execute the instructions smoothly. Was just magical to participate in. That is one reason why I have searched for instructors that have a similar training behind them so that the instruction makes sense to me and I can execute the instructions without much internal anxiety or questioning.

I agree that it is essential to buy into what the instructor is teaching. I don't know if I will ever quite feel that level of synchronicity as I did with Mark, but Cedar and Jillian are very close.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:21 pm

musical comedy wrote:
demi wrote:I don’t think there needs to be constant verbal instruction given in order for the trainer to ride through me. In fact, lots of chatter can be distracting.
If the work isn't as correct as the trainer feels it should be, then there is going to be dialog. Maybe I'm not as good as others and I need more correcting. My trainer has his faults as they all do, but he doesn't let anything slide. There is no 'good' when it isn't good.

I would not like it if my trainer was on a horse giving a lesson, even if it was just once in a while. I want my trainer's full attention at all times, and I get it.



MC, we are all different, but I think most of us need “more correcting”. I know I need lots of correcting.

Some methods of teaching work for some people but not others. It’s nice that you have a trainer that works well for you. I like to have my trainer show me from another horse, or even from my own horse because I am a visual learner. I still feel that I have my trainers full attention even when she’s on another horse. She is very good at what she does and has no problem riding and explaining and watching me all at the same time.

I can’t even ride and chew gum at the same time! So I don’t really have a dialogue with my trainer. I tend to just listen and talk later. Sometimes she does give me constant verbal direction and I am fine with that because I know she is trying to get me working correctly. Other times, she is quiet, giving me a chance to process and make adjustments.

I think it’s great that your trainer “doesn’t let anything slide”. I hate it when trainers say something is good when it really is not. I won’t ride with a trainer like that.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:15 pm

I have been lucky to have a few experiences of a trainer easily riding "through me." As noted, they have to know what they are doing/seeing, though! Also, they may not talk through all strides, but will simply be absolutely in the moment and ready to advise or notice what happened. My favorite kind of teaching blends this ability to dive into the experiential details, with the ability to back out to the theoretical or biomechanical underpinnings of what we are doing. I also like having the opportunity to work through an exercise enough that I develop new understandings or new questions, and can then bring that back to the trainer for input.

My favorite instructors will certainly say "good" or "better" when it is going in the right direction/is better than before. They also acknowledges the horses' try and my try. They might say "did you feel that? That's what we want...keep going." However, I think encouraging the right direction is very helpful. I need these markers to help me record correct feelings/the direction of correct feelings.

I don't think I would enjoy riding with a trainer who waited until something was really really outstanding to say "good"! I am not such an idiot that I think a "good" in a lesson equals a 7 on a test movement!

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:27 pm

piedmontfields wrote: I don't think I would enjoy riding with a trainer who waited until something was really really outstanding to say "good"! I am not such an idiot that I think a "good" in a lesson equals a 7 on a test movement!

I don't think for any trainer, 'good' equals really outstanding. I think it depends on the trainer and the student what 'good' means. For example, a little kid getting a canter depart for the first time no matter how sloppy might get a 'good' because it was an accomplishment for that child. Or even a beginner learning how to post might get a 'good' when they are able to do it without double bouncing. Stuff like that. However, when someone is an experienced rather competent rider riding with a trainer that knows them and their horse, then for me 'good' equals a "7" on a test. In fact, both of my last trainers have frequently said things like "that was a 7".

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby blob » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:32 pm

For me, I need a mix of different things from a trainer. I want a trainer who can explain to me the why's of things, who can pose questions/challenges and let me figure them out. Who will point out things I might not be feeling (good or bad).

I think it can be very helpful for an instructor to give real time corrections like: "right leg...now..now..now" or something like that to help me learn timing. But it can't always and only be that, otherwise I also won't learn.

The best instructors, imo, adapt for the rider/horse pair needs at that moment to better improve their future rides.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:18 pm

musical comedy wrote: However, when someone is an experienced rather competent rider riding with a trainer that knows them and their horse, then for me 'good' equals a "7" on a test. In fact, both of my last trainers have frequently said things like "that was a 7".


Some trainers/students use scoring as a very helpful quick assessment--it can really get the point across! (as long as it is accurate)

I'm assuming that even an experienced, competent rider who rides with a trainer is seeking *improvement*....hence, making small steps towards something better does, to me, deserve a "good" or "better" (maybe a good, go on, do it again, and more, etc.). I think I am using a positive comment/word differently (as encouragement to keep going in that direction, as a sign of a change, as a step towards something better) rather than as a final judgement ("the half pass is now good", as opposed to "good there with the shoulders" while practicing a half pass).

I'm pretty sure most horse's first attempt at a challenging movement (for that horse) was not actually "good" in the test sense, but still "good work" could have been done towards development and improvement, and the kinds of trainers I like would mark that verbally and check on my feel.

Moutaineer
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2479
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:12 am

demi, the hot button word for me is "fine." "That was fine" means to me "I can't be bothered to invest my time and energy in making you better."

The trainer who "rides through me" to me at my level of riding and training is the one who is really involved in what I am doing, and with whom I can just get in the zone, do what they are telling me to do and get a correct result. Then I know we are ultimately capable of doing it on our own.

Years ago, my favorite trainer taught me something that everyone tells you is impossible to teach. She taught me "feel." and she taught it to me by running along next to me, acting as an intermediary on the reins between my hands and the horse's mouth, literally riding the horse from the ground but managing to give me the correct feel I was trying to achieve in my own hands, while explaining to me the amount of forward I needed to generate from the horse's hind end. That was the single most important lesson I have ever had.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:50 am

Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean.

Let's say trainer A says do a shoulder in on the quarter line. Then may add, because the rail isnt there to hold position you have lost the hind quarter to the outside.

Or trainer B might say, turn before the rail weight your inside seatbone keep the horse bend around the inside leg, now bring the shoulder in with you outside rein . Slide your outside leg back to maintain bend, tap with both calves lightly you need more impulsion, dont raise your heel or it means canter....

Is trainer B "riding through you"

Dresseur
500 post plus club
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:16 am

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Dresseur » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:11 pm

I would classify trainer B as "riding through you". I have mixed feelings on this. Sometimes it's incredibly helpful, but at some point I feel it becomes a crutch. For the students that I've continued to work with, I tend to take this approach at first, and then I start asking questions, "what did you do differently there?, what do you feel right now?", so that they can start thinking about what is happening. I personally feel that if every stride is explained and micro-managed by a trainer at all times, the rider has a harder time learning how to be a thinking rider that can problem solve. On the flip side, I despise trainers who say "good" or "braaaavvvvv" all the time and the work is shit.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby exvet » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:20 pm

Dresseur I don't disagree with your points regarding the negative at all; but, there are those of us who are able to do the "see one, do one, teach one approach" and find the opportunity to get the feel because someone was able to help you/me guide the horse there incredibly helpful. I don't find my instructors who were truly good at this to have been micromanaging me or even giving me instruction stride per stride, breath per breath. In fact I do find that irritating. I just think that the ones I've found most helpful to have had their timing down to a tee and know when to cause the desired effect with their words through me as the tool/aid and thankfully I'm able to remember the feel and the pattern or steps my body took to get there. I ride far, far too often on my own, show on my own and back/start too many horses on my own for what you describe to become a crutch. However, I have known quite a few people to become dependent on their instructor as you describe.
Last edited by exvet on Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:41 pm

Moutaineer wrote: demi, the hot button word for me is "fine."


Ha ha! That is what DH and I say when eating out somewhere incredibly average (aka disappointing).

Moutaineer wrote: Years ago, my favorite trainer taught me something that everyone tells you is impossible to teach. She taught me "feel." and she taught it to me by running along next to me, acting as an intermediary on the reins between my hands and the horse's mouth, literally riding the horse from the ground but managing to give me the correct feel I was trying to achieve in my own hands, while explaining to me the amount of forward I needed to generate from the horse's hind end. That was the single most important lesson I have ever had.


I've had that lesson, too, from an older instructor. It was invaluable. She would reinforce it as needed by hopping on my various lease horses over the years, improving them and giving them back a few minutes later for me to feel the change. So incredibly helpful.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby exvet » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:09 pm

musical comedy wrote:Sounds like a few of you like this method? My trainer does that. Do I like it? Yes and No. Sometimes I feel like what and when he tells me to do something it isn't the right thing or time. I think he may not give me credit for knowing and feeling something. In my lessons, there is constant remarking the whole time. I have watched video lessons from other bnt where the rider goes round and round and the trainer might say 'good' 'super' or a little more of this/that. I don't go for more than a couple steps without a correction given. Maybe it's just my sucky riding or maybe he does that to all students. I haven't watched him teach anyone else for a long time.


I'm getting ready to go take another lesson this morning. I'm going hoping I don't miss the value in it because I will undoubtedly be analyzing the 'type' of lesson I get. One thing I do find is that as I get older I'm easily frustrated with nit picking and I often feel that I tend to do that with my horses. This is something I don't want to do so I try to turn the negative into a valuable reminder and put myself in my horse's shoes. I think I'm getting better (at least I hope so) in making a request and giving my horse an opportunity to give me the right answer and waiting until I feel he needs another reminder just as we lose the 'correctness'. It's tricky because I don't want to nag but at the same time I don't want to correct him a stride or two too late. On the other hand I also realize that I'm paying someone to stay on my arse and make sure that I improve. I'm flawed. My riding isn't perfect. I need the feedback even if it's to confirm that what I'm doing is correct. I get no value from someone who just tells me what I want to hear or is there to massage my ego so that I'll keep coming back and paying them to continue to do the same.

We'll see if I have as good of a lesson today as I did last week. I'm not holding my breath because I'm so use to the two steps forward one step back saga of riding young horses. It will be an interesting lesson just because of this thread ;)

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:13 pm

Dresseur wrote:I would classify trainer B as "riding through you".
It may be. I guess it depends on how you view things. It is NOT what I mean by riding through you. I apparently can't explain in words what I mean and perhaps my trainer isn't really riding through me at all. It's more like what I'm being asked to do is what the trainer would be doing if they were on the horse. That trainer B scenario is like teaching a novice. My trainer never gives instructions of the aids required to do a movement or exercise. I'm expected to know that. Now sure, if I am getting asked to do something completely new, I'm sure it would be explained. But stuff like SI, HP, etc., I just get told to do it. During the movement itself, there may be words like more angle, etc.

My trainer would not be appropriate for someone that wants a lot of help. He's not good at explaining things the way it seems most of you want from a trainer. He mostly just looks at the quality of gait and accuracy of movement and expects the rider to make the necessary correction to improve it. I often fail, but eventually figure it out by myself. We all learn differently.

Josette
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Josette » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:45 pm

I would have greatly appreciated Trainer B many years ago. It would have made the dressage journey easier to learn movements and feel correctly at the start rather than guessing from a Trainer A style. After that initial introduction of correct training then it would have been easier (I hope) to work more independent with a Trainer A. We do all learn different but the goal is to progress with what learning style works for you and your horse.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby exvet » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:11 pm

Neither scenario fits what I believe I'm trying to describe either. For example if I'm riding a shoulder in down the long side, my riding instructor would say something like, "he's not coming over his back equally into both reins. Make him feel like he's stretching down into each hand equally while you keep him stepping under from behind. Don't forget to ask him to fill those reins by stepping each hind into your hands as you lead those shoulders in off the wall".......she gives me more of what I should feel not so much where my leg or hand should be.........Now having said that if I'm raising one hand higher than the other because I'm focusing on something else she will let me know. THAT is one of the many things I pay her for.....

Got to go hook up the trailer...

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 am

I had a lesson today and wrote a long post and then lost the whole dang thing. I’m going to bed!

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:57 pm

I find this thread very interesting. I did some trainer analyzing in my lesson yesterday ;) and when I have more time I want to write about it here (again!) Writing this stuff out is so good for me...

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:57 am

exvet wrote: "he's not coming over his back equally into both reins. Make him feel like he's stretching down into each hand equally while you keep him stepping under from behind. Don't forget to ask him to fill those reins by stepping each hind into your hands as you lead those shoulders in off the wall".......she gives me more of what I should feel not so much where my leg or hand should be.........Now having said that if I'm raising one hand higher than the other because I'm focusing on something else she will let me know. THAT is one of the many things I pay her for.....

Got to go hook up the trailer...


Now this I understand and really would appreciate. You dont have to consider me when you write (meant to be a bit of a poke at myself) but this is much more helpful than " my trainer rides through me) which makes it sound, to me, like some psychic new world plain of existentialism. (Again intended to be a poke at my own self)

I would very much like that kind if trainer.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:28 pm

Chisamba wrote: but this is much more helpful than " my trainer rides through me) which makes it sound, to me, like some psychic new world plain of existentialism.
I'm sorry you find the phrase meaningless or annoying. It is used a lot, and with google, I have found it discussed. So, it is not some weird phrase I invented. Also, what is helpful to you (g) may not be helpful to me or others. I think the proof is in the pudding (to coin phrase); if you (g) and/or the horse are improving and progressing, then the training is working. If stuck on a cul-de-sac, then maybe rethink the methods.

In my googling, I came across a post from someone in the UK complaining about her trainer that rides through her. Below is what she wrote. Before you ask...yes...I have had almost that many corrections done in a short amount of time. It works for me. Each time, I need less and less correcting because I am developing new and better good habits.

"Here's how today's training went: In the time it takes to ride a 20 m circle, I was instructed to maintain frame, soften inside hand, no not that much, you lost contact, ride more up to outside hand, sit straight - don't lean, activate inside leg - she's out of rhythm! increase stride, half-halt, half-halt, inside hind is off track - she's off balance, correct outside shoulder, activate, activate!... well, you get the picture."

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:15 pm

My lesson on Tuesday was interesting wrt “analyzing” my trainer (haha). She gave the lesson while riding the same horse she used in my lesson the previous Tuesday. We warmed up together and when I picked up the trot, I thought “wow, this is a REALLY nice trot!”. I know trainer was watching because she noticed it and said “love that trot!”.

She didn’t let me bask in the new and improved trot for very long. She right away “parked” her horse and had me get on a 20m circle right. She started right in with the same exercise from last week. I quickly lost the quality of the trot because I couldn’t do all the things she was asking and still concentrate on keeping a nice quality trot. This fact didn't escape my trainer’s notice (even thou she was on another horse) because she said “when this becomes second nature, you’ll be able to do it and still keep a nice trot”.

There were six simultaneous elements to the exercise and trainer was on my case the minute I let something slip. This was and is invaluable to me. I didn’t feel that she was “riding through me” even though she was giving me very specific and rapid instructions. I did, however, feel that the process put horse, rider, and trainer, in a position for the trainer to better be able to “ride through me”. And this is along the lines that MC mentioned about needing less and less instructions each time because she is developing new and better good habits. In other words, the better I get, the easier it is for the trainer to ride through me.

One other thing about analyzing how my trainer trains from another horse (please forgive me if this is not related to the thread topic :oops: ). After I started to fall apart in above exercise, she said “stop. Now watch this” and showed me again from her horse. She showed and explained at the same time, and I started to follow and imitate her. She was looking over her shoulder and would catch my mistake, point it out, and then exaggerated the correct way until I did it right. It works for me.

Maybe I should start another topic, but another thing I like from certain trainers is when they let me ride one of their horses to show me something. That can be really eyeopening on many levels.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby exvet » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:38 pm

musical comedy wrote:
"Here's how today's training went: In the time it takes to ride a 20 m circle, I was instructed to maintain frame, soften inside hand, no not that much, you lost contact, ride more up to outside hand, sit straight - don't lean, activate inside leg - she's out of rhythm! increase stride, half-halt, half-halt, inside hind is off track - she's off balance, correct outside shoulder, activate, activate!... well, you get the picture."


LOL I have definitely had lessons like that in the past though not with my current riding instructor. I think in all honesty it's because Junior (and I) isn't really that far enough along to get that specific.

Now having said that, our lesson the day before yesterday went very well. We picked up where we left off last week and really worked on developing straightness through exercises in order to address each side of Junior's body going both directions. It was easy to tell when he was straight and when he wasn't. I also worked on teaching him how to lengthen, elasticize and soften is body longitudinally. He has such a fireplug build that he naturally holds himself very compact and short in a longitudinal frame. Once I got him straight at the walk which we focused on in the beginning of our lesson and made sure with the straightness he was reaching and stepping into both hands equally I could use my seat and legs to lift his back and encourage/at times exaggerating the oscillation of his head/neck in order to get him to stretch not just with his neck but through/over his back and get repetitive improving overstride - it was nice because the swing in the back was there as well. We have definitely established a new standard for all 3 gaits. We also now have distinct gears at all 3 gaits and are going to focus on working on those.

While analyzing my lesson, it was interesting to note that my instructor was not 'yammering' constantly. She also ended the lesson with a comment on how pleased and excited she was with Junior's progress. Her final note however was the need for me to 'use and develop' his lift and reach up front through his shoulders because with 'his gaits' it's the only way I'll ever be competitive.........LOL......for all the progress we still get 'the rub'. He is a welsh cob after all - but I think I'll keep him all the same ;)

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:50 pm

Sometimes I think, why are we focusing so much on this or that, because I am willing to settle for less I guess. I know it is because if we move on to more advanced things without basics in place, it will cause problems. Of course, many know that we can move up with holes, but the work will always lack in quality that could have been better had they fixed the basics first.

To give an example, my canter depart to the right is far superior to the one on the left. I'm not sure how much of this problem is me or the horse or a little of both. Trainer wants the horse to really jump into the canter with a lot of pizzaz. The left depart, while ok and round, is sluggish. This would result in problem with tempis and probably other things as well.

In the Ly's, if they are not flowing and correct, Hp's won't be either. Even though you could move on to Hp's and get a 6 or so.

Someone posted about getting a good trot from a halt, which is 1st level requirement. How often do we see that? Not often imo. That is hard to do. The horse has to have a good halt that stays IFL during the salute. Heck, many first level horses are off the bit at the halt.

These are the kind of quality things that I suffer with during lessons and frustrate me. The more you realize how faulty your work is, it's depressing.

I have an AA friend that has the gold and a really super show record on multiple horses at FEI. She has a new horse and working with a new trainer. She says she is back to basics. Even learning how to use her core. She admits the holes, yet she was able to do so well at showing. What does this prove? Well, to me, it proves that the horse is a very important part of the equation. If you have a very talented horse, especially a trained one, you can get by in the ring with holes in your training.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:44 pm

musical comedy wrote: These are the kind of quality things that I suffer with during lessons and frustrate me. The more you realize how faulty your work is, it's depressing.


I am not unfamiliar with that depressing feeling about (still) addressing very basic things! As my DH says to me sometimes, how is that 20 m circle going?! However, every time I get more clear about the basics (and my responsibilities with them), the harder work is so much easier! It's so consistently true...just hard to keep believing sometimes.

You mentioned your friend who is re-visiting basics/her seat with her new horse. I was very struck by this at a recent clinic I audited. Lots of very nice horses and riders and most with a fair bit of FEI experience---but they still had a lot of things to work on with their own bodies/seat so they could be more effective with their horses doing things like walk-canter or halt-trot. I do think some horses cover up for their riders. Others are not willing to and others still are not able to (that would be my horse :lol: )

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:50 pm

musical comedy wrote:In the Ly's, if they are not flowing and correct, Hp's won't be either. Even though you could move on to Hp's and get a 6 or so.

Someone posted about getting a good trot from a halt, which is 1st level requirement. How often do we see that? Not often imo. That is hard to do. The horse has to have a good halt that stays IFL during the salute. Heck, many first level horses are off the bit at the halt.
.


hmmmm ...that might have been me. I'm a sticker for a halt on the bit, and to me it's helping teach the half halt.... I don't find a good halt hard at all but it's a daily focus so that could be why. Its essentially my bread and butter movement (down and up transitions into and out of the halt, half step reinback to lift the chest, full rein backs, etc)

I show well and got a 71% recently at 1:3 and I credit this with helping me get there.....so It seems to be the right path for me. "Excellent understanding of contact at all three gaits..." :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:07 pm

So I searched trainers riding through you and got many bicycle posts and adverts and not one single horse related thing.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:22 pm

Chisamba wrote:So I searched trainers riding through you and got many bicycle posts and adverts and not one single horse related thing.
:lol: :lol: That would be because you are not a google expert like I am.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:27 pm

piedmontfields wrote:You mentioned your friend who is re-visiting basics/her seat with her new horse. I was very struck by this at a recent clinic I audited. Lots of very nice horses and riders and most with a fair bit of FEI experience---but they still had a lot of things to work on with their own bodies/seat so they could be more effective with their horses doing things like walk-canter or halt-trot. I do think some horses cover up for their riders. Others are not willing to and others still are not able to (that would be my horse :lol: )
Yes, and this lady's new horse is an x-CDI horse with a good show record. Friend says she has trouble with shoulder-in.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:44 pm

I really just see this as more evidence that becoming skilled in dressage is just plain hard! Also, we all bring different strengths to that challenge....and we all have to grapple with our weaknesses, too (eventually!). If we didn't, we'd just be talking about how great we are on the internet----and what fun would that be?! LOL

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Flight » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:42 pm

I often have to gain a concept in a lesson then go away and work on it on my own. Sometimes too many words gets distracting and I can't ride and listen. My instructor I think does do a bit of 'riding through me' as in I'll get specific directions as I'm riding ie left leg, right leg. give left mouth, and that can be really helpful as it's direct and concise. But too much explaining as I'm trying to do it, I struggle with.
As for basics, I'm always finding holes as I move up probably a bit too quickly. But because it's my first time moving up the levels, I don't know that I have holes until I try and do something harder. Fortunately I have a tolerant horse!

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:48 pm

I've decided that it's my fault I get instruction every split second. It's because I constantly do things that are wrong. I get a correction and then immediately go back to doing the wrong thing without realizing I'm doing it. I'm rotating back with my right hand, I'm leaning forward. Stuff like that. I'm having trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, so to speak. It's hard for me keeping everything together with this mare.

My trainer tells me things are getting better and often says we worked well after the lesson. I tell him, yes, but on my own I am not getting this quality of work. He laughs and says that if I was, then why would I bother to take lessons. He continued by saying that some van in students tell him their work has been good. Then he sees it, and it is a disaster. LOL. That's what I've wondered in the past if people (generic) not getting lessons really are doing the quality they think they are doing.

Why is it that when trainer yells "super" it feels bad to me? When I get a super at canter, I feel like it is the kind of canter I'd have approaching a 3'6" fence. Maybe that's the canter I should have. Dunno. I think I've been riding with horses behind the leg for so long that when they are finally forward it feels out of control to me. I'll bet if I saw video, I would be surprised and it would look slow to me.

Josette
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Josette » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Well I do wish I had someone years ago pick me apart and address my issues. It just adds further challenges when you then ride a greenie or a horse with it's own training issues that any progress takes so long. I've been working hard on improving myself to be centered literally from the top down. The same applies for equal in both reins and making sure what and where my shoulders are. The leg position has greatly improved as a result I think.
Likewise, the same goes for the pony to get him even in both reins with no body evasions of shoulder or haunches not tracking straight. Lots of figures to get us both equal in both directions to strengthen our weaker sides. I don't know what we look like but have to go with my feel and gut when it feels right and most critical for him - that he is relaxed and cooperative. I suppose my goals will always remain about getting the basics correct.

piedmontfields
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2735
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:41 pm
Location: E Tennessee USA

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:48 pm

musical comedy wrote: Why is it that when trainer yells "super" it feels bad to me? When I get a super at canter, I feel like it is the kind of canter I'd have approaching a 3'6" fence. Maybe that's the canter I should have. Dunno. I think I've been riding with horses behind the leg for so long that when they are finally forward it feels out of control to me. I'll bet if I saw video, I would be surprised and it would look slow to me.


I think I agree with your trainer! :D The canter you need for a good-sized jump is connected, uphill, bounding, and a bit collected. So well done!

This comment kind of relates to my earlier comments on developing new standards for gaits. It can feel weird/disorienting or even scary as you change what you thought you knew about, say, a good or good enough canter.

demi
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2218
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:44 am

I never use to find cantering or galloping to be scary until my late 50’s after a bucking running fall with several broken bones (it was a neighbor’s horse not mine). I was 57 when I got Rocky as a 3 yr old. I’ve never let her run and have been over cautious about any kind of speed. My trainer knows about this, and has helped me gain more confidence, but at this point she is no longer “babying” me. On Tuesday when Rocky’s canter got a little fast, I reined her in just slightly, and trainer yelled “don’t slow her down!! Ride it!”. I know she’s right and I will have to work on it. I have to be able to slow her down with my seat and back, and NOT the reins and that means I have to let her get a little fast first...

Rocky was bred for speed. Her breeder is a natural athlete and his sport was track. Her registered name is Coco’s Bey Rocket and her full sister is Coco’s Little Missle! I will try to post a pic of Missle when she was 8. She’s 17 now. When Rocky was 3, the breeder started her under saddle for me. He only rode her a dozen times but on the last ride we were riding on his ranch and he asked me if I minded if he let Rocky run so he could see how fast she was. I said ok and WOW! It was in a big open pasture and she was out of sight in no time. When they came back he said with a huge smile that he almost couldn’t stop her....so THAT’S WHY I AM CAREFUL!

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Flight » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:10 am

musical comedy wrote: That's what I've wondered in the past if people (generic) not getting lessons really are doing the quality they think they are doing.



I know I don't get the same quality. That's why I video nearly every ride I do to try and critique it (by the way that's how I help myself fall asleep watching me ride :lol: )

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:22 pm

This riding through you got the best of me in today's lesson. I felt like yelling "shut up". I barely got out of the warmup trotting today. If you heard the instructions while I was trotting to the right, you all would :shock: :shock: . One correction barely got said before another one was called out. I could not keep the haunches from coming in. "Bring the shoulders over" "No, your pulling on the right rein" "Sit to the inside" "No, your right rein is restricting" "Give your reins forward" "Sit back, you're leaning forward again" "Use your inside leg" "She's still haunches-in" "No, you're restricting" And it went on and on like this.

Once I got off that warmup circle and the sitting trot work started, I did ok. By then, my reins and gloves were soaked and reins kept slipping. I have a real hard time in rising trot. I hate it.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:07 pm

musical comedy wrote:This riding through you got the best of me in today's lesson. I felt like yelling "shut up". I barely got out of the warmup trotting today. If you heard the instructions while I was trotting to the right, you all would :shock: :shock: . One correction barely got said before another one was called out. I could not keep the haunches from coming in. "Bring the shoulders over" "No, your pulling on the right rein" "Sit to the inside" "No, your right rein is restricting" "Give your reins forward" "Sit back, you're leaning forward again" "Use your inside leg" "She's still haunches-in" "No, you're restricting" And it went on and on like this.

Once I got off that warmup circle and the sitting trot work started, I did ok. By then, my reins and gloves were soaked and reins kept slipping. I have a real hard time in rising trot. I hate it.



Sounds like corrections vs instructions?

I don't find these sorts of lessons helpful since I get insanely confused and frustrated with not being told why and how I'm blocking and exactly how to do better. Its too random for me.

Ryeissa
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:10 pm

I'm not trying to say this isn't a good trainer but they don't work for me. I consider myself very quick to make changes and very good in lessons if I'm told in an organized logical progression.

Ie: to bring your horses haunches in open the outside hip till you feel the hip flexors activate. Then you keep the horse from falling in by sitting on the inside hip. Feel that? That's correct. Now replicate it again.

User avatar
musical comedy
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:20 pm

Well then, you're just a better rider than I am. Be grateful.

Josette
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1360
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:53 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Josette » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:09 pm

Everyone processes information different. MC - Your instructor's style - short and quick corrections is what works for me. I'm not saying I would be quick or fit enough to keep up - but mentally that is my style. Too much analytic talk, theory or stories and I don't hear it as I'm too focused on feeling the ride.

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Trainers riding through you.

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:14 am

I would have started to get frustrated if I had that much directions at me at once! I would have probably stopped and repositioned in the halt or walk before I lost my shit! You might need to ask for a few less words at you if it's too much??


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests