Good connection

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
Abby Kogler
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Re: Good connection

Postby Abby Kogler » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:57 pm

Aside from your unnecessary and rude digs at me I love your posts, and your contributions, always think about the things you say. I promise I am not the only one. Just because of two posts about side reins, you are going to take your ball and go home. Just stop.

No one said bosals were the holy grail. They can be monstrous.

I thought boards were to express opinions, go back and forth, discuss, question, what have you. I didn't know we could never get our feelings hurt, never be disagreed with, never to argue. You add a lot to the discussions.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm

delete
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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:00 pm

Abby Kogler wrote:I thought boards were to express opinions, go back and forth, discuss, question, what have you.
I think that is what they are supposed to be. But this is a dressage forum, not a reining forum or a cow chasing forum, or some unorthodox training method forum. But then, there are those that always point to the statement "well, dressage means training" so that applies to all disciplines. I think there are those of us here that assume Dressage is Dressage the sport, as per the FEI and USEF/USDF rules.

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Re: Good connection

Postby blob » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:29 pm

I think a horse can be going 'nicely', as the pic in the OP demonstrates, but that doesn't mean the horse is connected.

I also don't really believe you a true connection without a bit. Connection is about the horse working from behind, over the back, and into the hand. It's a cycle of energy and I do believe the bit is an important part of that equitation. It works very differently than a bosal. A bosal will ALWAYS teach the horse to stay behind its pressure.

And I agree with those that have said being able to release the reins for a few strides is important, but that being said, I do not think the whole ride should be with looped reins.

Different riding disciplines aim for different things and test different things. In dressage contact is a critical ingredient.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Josette » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:00 pm

I find the descriptions given by blob and exvet to be exactly what connection means in dressage and further helps my learning to get it right. (Thank you!) How can you have connection without contact? By trying to compare different riding disciplines may not make sense for a connection discussion.

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:14 pm

I got the point!! I have removed all of the offensive posts. :oops:

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:19 pm

Josette wrote:I find the descriptions given by blob and exvet to be exactly what connection means in dressage and further helps my learning to get it right. (Thank you!) How can you have connection without contact? By trying to compare different riding disciplines may not make sense for a connection discussion.


Connection how? what do you mean connection? I think it would help those of us with a classical dressage background to understand what you mean....
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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:20 pm

demi wrote:I got the point!! I have removed all of the offensive posts. :oops:


please put it back....This discussion looses all context and I spent time commenting here and now it means nothing with out the picture to work off
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Re: Good connection

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:28 pm

No, Rye, YOU are being dramatic (again). Please stop. Thank you.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Josette » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:39 pm

Rye - you just confused me - so I do not know how to reply.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:39 pm

never mind,
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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:41 pm

delete
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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:48 pm

never mind
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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:49 pm

Ryeissa wrote: Sorry don't drag me into this MC chisamba personal stuff.
What MC/Chisamba personal stuff are we talking about here?

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:50 pm

never mind
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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:52 pm

Ryeissa wrote:ok, let's start over. Here is another ranch horse. what do you all think?
What I think is you should take that photo down. It's not worth discussing.

Look, the USDF publish the latest list showing the dressage terminology used and the updated pyramid. The term Connection has been removed and has been replaced with just Contact.

Anyone that is a true dressage rider, might review the info in these links and then everyone would be on the same page about what terms we are using.

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competitio ... al3.19.pdf

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competitio ... _Heath.pdf

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:57 pm

musical comedy wrote:
Ryeissa wrote:ok, let's start over. Here is another ranch horse. what do you all think?
What I think is you should take that photo down. It's not worth discussing.



Done.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:30 pm

Oh I missed what happened. I'm out of sync living in the southern hemisphere!

I guess this thread is done for, but thanks for the discussions and inputs. Those links are useful, thanks MC.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:03 am

Let me give this a try. I am an average trainer, I produce sweet rideable horses for clients who want to strive for improvement on regular horses. My riding contingent include a western ranch trained quarter horse, a drum horse, two draft x, a thoroughbred, and my own Lipizzaner x, and DHH.

A variety of horses with different conformation and different attitude to life.

But ultimately, and with my best effort to be fair, consistent and kind, on each horse I attempt to develop a connection.

To me the connection feels like wind lifting my hair, elastic, ideally, as if held by a thread to the bit and if you bump it will snap. No, it does not always feel like that but it's the goal, so like exvet said on another thread, right in the middle of a shoulder in, or flying change, or piaffe, or leg yield, hell even in an upward or downward transition it should feel as though if you lengthen your rein, or push your hands forward the horse will will follow the hand forward, which lengthens the topline and persuades the hind leg to step under, flexing hip, stifled hock as it receives the weight. So short rein is not the opposite of no rein. being able to lengthen thectein and keep the connection is the opposite.

Now if I push my hands forward toward the Crest I want the neck to lengthen up and out. If I push my hand forward to the wither, straight and out, if I push my hands apart and lower them forward, I want forward down and out. By out I do not mean off the bit. I mean extending evenly from base of neck to poll.

The horse tells me through the weight in the rein 3 things,

How comfortable it is with the work.

How strong or weak it is behind

How balanced it is.

I release the rein to a loop while maintaining core engagement of my body, to allow self balance, but I dont " hang up the phone " after giving instruction, I keep the reciever to my ear ( or the contact with the bit) to hear the horses opinion about my directive.

If the weight is too heavy it might mean a few things. The horse may say

I'm not ready
I want to catch up, spook or be distracted .
I dont know what you mean
That's my weak side
Just being slight examples.

I talk to the horse via the reins, and I listen to its whispered or shouted reply.

I am sorry if none of this had meaning to you. I dont think contact is offensive. I think its communicative. Maybe communication is not always perfect but it's better than silence

I think dressage is very defined. Mostly when I talk on this board it's by virtue of how I understand that definition.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Dresseur » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:03 am

I’m on board with what Chisamba wrote re connection. That’s how I would describe it.

I’m not privy to the side rein war, other than that I know some people don’t like them. I firmly maintain, that when used correctly, they absolutely have a place in the classical system in terms of preparing a horse to be ridden. Done properly, it takes months to get to a “finished” shape. And, I’ve not ridden a single horse that has gone through this preparation to feel heavy or dead in the reins. I’ve felt a great many horses trained in a number of different ways, including PK’s methods that were posed, stiff and had zero concept of connection and were not connected in their bodies, or were downright rude in the bridle or you couldn’t touch them at all. Find a method that works, then study the hell out of it and learn about other methods to keep the mind open and questioning.

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Re: Good connection

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:13 am

Well, I wrote all this out earlier, but apparently wandered off without hitting the "post" button. Might be a little asynchronous, but there you go.

I don't think this discussion is anti-dressage, and I'm not really understanding why anyone is worked up over it. I think it's worthwhile to look at HOW another approach does or does not work on horses in general, and think about what that might teach me about my current approach to improve my understanding.

I actually thought about this thread a bit this morning and think that "on the aids" is perhaps a better description than "connection" or certainly "collection" for what Demi was trying to discuss. Surely we can agree that a horse can be on the aids on a looped rein. The western people generally get to it on a shorter path to develop a useful working horse. There is not the luxury of spending 6 years of dressage training to get the horse working off of the legs and one-hand when there are calves to brand and sort. However, dressage is based on physical development and straightening of the horse to achieve collection. Perhaps it is more "nitpicking" because we are trying to systematically supple and straighten every part of the horse, rather than allowing the horse to develop however as a result of the workload it is given. So at the end of the day it seems to me that a rider can: 1) ride on physical contact, holding the horse's hand through it's development, and eventually achieve collection for moments like the one Flight shows, 2) teach the horse that it better stay within an invisible box within a looped rein or else, or 3) ride on loose reins, and hope that the horse decides to get better more or less on its own (hint: it probably won't happen).
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:11 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
I think you need to learn the proper way to longe in SR and then see if you might change your mind.


I learned the "proper" way to lunge in side reins decades ago, but then started paying more attention to what I think horses need rather than what I was told they need. And of course, what I thought continued to morph over many more decades into what I believe now. Not that I'm trying to play the I've-been-doing-this-for-a-long-time card, because I get that if someone has been doing it "wrong" for a long time then their opinions/skills aren't of any use to anyone, anyway. But I'm just saying that I've been observing and experimenting and thinking about this for decades, and this is where I am now.

However, I've always felt, and still feel, that "good" hands are way better for horses than sidereins, although concede that correctly adjusted sidereins are probably way better than "poor" hands.

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:40 pm

StraightForward wrote:3) ride on loose reins, and hope that the horse decides to get better more or less on its own (hint: it probably won't happen).


I agree with 1 and 2, but think that horses can learn how to balance pretty well on their own, on a loose rein, just from being ridden. In fact, I did it with my mule just by riding him in the ring and then out on trail behind another mule. He wouldn't leave the other mule so I didn't really need to be able to control him, and I was experimentiing with clicker training so didn't want to cloud the results by using any active pressure and release, so he basically learned to balance himself and his rider "on the job".

Most of my horse's initial training was on a loose rein too, and his balance improved considerably just from riding him on lines and figures in a small ring. Not that there's any way to conform to what judges want to see in dressage comps on a horse that's been trained on a loose rein, but I think there are ways to set things up so that horses can learn to balance themselves.

I do however, think that most riders want more faster, so find it really hard to set things up and then just let it happen. The perception is that if they do more they'll get more of what they want faster, which they may, as long as they're willing to lose more of what they may not think is important.

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:52 pm

[quote="blob"] A bosal will ALWAYS teach the horse to stay behind its pressure.

Those who use bosals tend to teach the horse to stay "weight of reins" light on them, but horses can be just as easily be allowed/taught to take a contact with the bosal.

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Re: Good connection

Postby blob » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:05 pm

kande50 wrote:
blob wrote: A bosal will ALWAYS teach the horse to stay behind its pressure.

Those who use bosals tend to teach the horse to stay "weight of reins" light on them, but horses can be just as easily be allowed/taught to take a contact with the bosal.


taking contact with a bosal is impossible. Contact requires a horse to move forward into the hand. That is not the point of the bosal or the use of a bosal. If you were arguing that it was possible or the point of a bitless bridle, perhaps. But the bosal is designed to create boundaries for the horse. You're not supposed to keep the bosal consistently against the horse's nose, that would be pretty cruel. Instead it's meant for the horse to carry itself in a certain place and then the bosal can be 'bumped' to change that carriage. A horse does not seek the end of the bosal because that would be incredibly painful. It's specifically designed for the horse to stay light in self carriage and away from the equipment.

i spent a lot of time with some very good western riders when I did colt starting. The were not looking for horses to seek the bit, but rather to self carry lightly behind the the end of their equipment whether it be a snaffle or a hackmore or a bosal. But all three of them used the bosal very rarely because it's one of the harshest things out there--they used the bosal when all other methods didn't work. The most telling was someone who specialized in problem horses, he said he only used the bosal for bolters he considered dangerous.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:20 pm

kande50 wrote:
blob wrote: A bosal will ALWAYS teach the horse to stay behind its pressure.

Those who use bosals tend to teach the horse to stay "weight of reins" light on them, but horses can be just as easily be allowed/taught to take a contact with the bosal.

Flat out disagree.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:25 pm

kande50 wrote:
StraightForward wrote:3) ride on loose reins, and hope that the horse decides to get better more or less on its own (hint: it probably won't happen).


I agree with 1 and 2, but think that horses can learn how to balance pretty well on their own, on a loose rein, just from being ridden. In fact, I did it with my mule just by riding him in the ring and then out on trail behind another mule. He wouldn't leave the other mule so I didn't really need to be able to control him, and I was experimentiing with clicker training so didn't want to cloud the results by using any active pressure and release, so he basically learned to balance himself and his rider "on the job".

Most of my horse's initial training was on a loose rein too, and his balance improved considerably just from riding him on lines and figures in a small ring. Not that there's any way to conform to what judges want to see in dressage comps on a horse that's been trained on a loose rein, but I think there are ways to set things up so that horses can learn to balance themselves.

I do however, think that most riders want more faster, so find it really hard to set things up and then just let it happen. The perception is that if they do more they'll get more of what they want faster, which they may, as long as they're willing to lose more of what they may not think is important.


This demonstrates the difficulty is discussion. Balance on a loose rein with nose up the rear of the equine in front of it on a trail compared to balance in riding specific requirements and patterns away from the herd in a ring . Its uncanny how much it absolutely does not apply.

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Re: Good connection

Postby exvet » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:52 pm

I like some others have ridden multiple disciplines, landing on a couple of specific ones as those I prefer. Each has it's own expectations of the horse and how best to get there through training. To that end, each is 'right' so-to=speak.

My preference for dressage was partially created because I like or prefer how it develops the horses' bodies or musculature when done correctly. It's with this in mind that I describe, define, and pursue connection. It's with that development of connection added with engagement and balance that I hope to have a horse with correct muscle development in the hind end, through the loin/back/wither all the way through neck (top and bottom) to the poll.

My horses' tell me in their body language and in the development of their musculature if what I am doing is correct. Their health and well-being tell me if I'm choosing the right path for them. I look over at my neighbor's barn and see his horses. He is very good at reining and has some top class (world class) horses in his barn. I look at them, knowing the expectations of the discipline and can see with my own eyes that he can say the very same. We each fill different shoes but it's the musculature, fitness and health of the horses that tell us if we're on the right path to achieving our independent goals. Some of the horses we select for the path tell us early on that it's not for them. Others we find some level of success with to whatever end we seek. There is no real comparison between us as to who is right or who is wrong. We are following different rule books.

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Re: Good connection

Postby StraightForward » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:52 pm

kande50 wrote:
StraightForward wrote:3) ride on loose reins, and hope that the horse decides to get better more or less on its own (hint: it probably won't happen).


I agree with 1 and 2, but think that horses can learn how to balance pretty well on their own, on a loose rein, just from being ridden. In fact, I did it with my mule just by riding him in the ring and then out on trail behind another mule. He wouldn't leave the other mule so I didn't really need to be able to control him, and I was experimentiing with clicker training so didn't want to cloud the results by using any active pressure and release, so he basically learned to balance himself and his rider "on the job".


I could have been more specific. By better, I was thinking more of developing the engagement and straightness to obtain collection and impulsion to accomplish upper level dressage movements. I disagree that a horse will learn the same balance on its own though - e.g. bending through the body and keeping the shoulder up in a canter circle, vs. motorcycling around. Annabelle is a more specific example - she has muscular asymmetry in her haunches, so it takes more contact and tutoring to get her to use herself evenly. I could ride her around on a loose rein for the next 20 years and she would never choose to use her weak side - well, maybe when the joints on the strong side start to give out from over work.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Good connection

Postby blob » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:59 pm

Chisamba wrote:
kande50 wrote:
blob wrote: A bosal will ALWAYS teach the horse to stay behind its pressure.

Those who use bosals tend to teach the horse to stay "weight of reins" light on them, but horses can be just as easily be allowed/taught to take a contact with the bosal.

Flat out disagree.



Just clarifying that I didn't say the above, just the first sentence. I think formatting got wonky!

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:34 pm

Sorry blob, I don't know how I managed to mess up the format. I was disagreeing with Kandes statement that a hirse would seek contact in a bosal.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chancellor » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:28 pm

Sometimes, it would be good to agree to disagree without making it personal.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Kelo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:09 pm

StraightForward wrote:I hope Kelo stops by and weighs in!


Looks like I missed most of this.

Discussing dressage and cow horses is probably my favorite topic and I could go on and on, but I'm not going to get in the middle of people hating on western styles of riding. We all love our horses, we love learning new things, and there is a level of personal attacks that stymies discussion and learning.

So, I will just say two things:

1. I've watched a lot of western performance horses go, probably more than most (or all) of you. I've studied on dressage, and watched a few of those horses go as well. I've been a scribe for sports on both sides of the fence.

Given that, from where I'm sitting, while western performance horsemen focus on their maneuvers differently than a dressage rider focuses on theirs, and the judges look for scoring specifics differently, I promise you, at its very core, the western performance horses that are marking the best scores are the ones that are forward, straight, through, on the aids and displaying high degrees of harmony. Those elements of athleticism are the basis of performance, regardless of the details of what is being asked.

2. Flight, your Ding is STUNNINGLY GORGEOUS, no matter his rein length. :shock: :D

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:19 pm

Kelo wrote:
StraightForward wrote:I hope Kelo stops by and weighs in!


Looks like I missed most of this.

Discussing dressage and cow horses is probably my favorite topic and I could go on and on, but I'm not going to get in the middle of people hating on western styles of riding. We all love our horses, we love learning new things, and there is a level of personal attacks that stymies discussion and learning.

So, I will just say two things:

1. I've watched a lot of western performance horses go, probably more than most (or all) of you. I've studied on dressage, and watched a few of those horses go as well. I've been a scribe for sports on both sides of the fence.

Given that, from where I'm sitting, while western performance horsemen focus on their maneuvers differently than a dressage rider focuses on theirs, and the judges look for scoring specifics differently, I promise you, at its very core, the western performance horses that are marking the best scores are the ones that are forward, straight, through, on the aids and displaying high degrees of harmony. Those elements of athleticism are the basis of performance, regardless of the details of what is being asked.

2. Flight, your Ding is STUNNINGLY GORGEOUS, no matter his rein length. :shock: :D


And this, folks, is how agreeing to disagree is done. Well said Kelo!

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:43 pm

For the record I do not hate on western styles of riding. I too have ridden western and competed in reining.

I hate on western riders hating on dressage.

There are a good many reining techniques that are similar to baucher. Imho.
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Re: Good connection

Postby blob » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:52 pm

I do think there are some basic principles that are standards of good riding in any discipline. Many are some that Kelo listed: straightness, responsiveness to the aids, harmony, fluid movement, etc.

But there are also basics that differ discipline to discipline and what constitutes as connection or 'good contact' is one of them. In the hunter ring, the judges are also looking for good connection, but it looks very different from a reining horse or a dressage horse or a saddle seat horse. It's defined differently by the book and is ridden differently.

To me, it's not about making a valuation of one discipline's connection being better or worse than another, but rather recognizing that the objective is different.

There is a reason bitless bridles (or even leather bits) are not allowed in dressage competitions and are allowed in other disciplines. The way that good connection is defined by dressage principles is very much about the horse moving into the hand.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Sue B » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:14 pm

Phew! I was getting worried. Thank you for returning to "civility" (?) . I so enjoy reading these discussions. I hope demi comes back and sees that it has come full circle. :)

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:40 pm

Sorry that I was asleep at the wheel when things got a bit heated. When I am not working (like a four day weekend) I try to stay away from computers.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Chancellor wrote:Sorry that I was asleep at the wheel when things got a bit heated. When I am not working (like a four day weekend) I try to stay away from computers.


No problem, thanks for answering me!

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Re: Good connection

Postby Kelo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:25 pm

Perfect, then, we can discuss without anyone hating on anything! (Except brussel sprouts, I am ok with hating on those at any time.)

Thanks again for your hard work, Chancellor!

It really is pointless to compare the sports, and there isn't one that is "better" -- just one that an individual prefers -- but I do think we can all learn from each other.

Blob, I agree with you, the connection or contact is different across the sports, IMO none are wrong - each develop to meet the needs of the sport they're doing. Contact is certainly my bogeyman, riding across disciplines. It is so hard to master the two different methods, I admit I'm still working on that.

So maybe cow horse isn't gonna teach me how to take a proper dressage contact, but I guess when I think about this topic, I try to focus on the similarities -- what can a great cow horse teach me about a willing, athletic horse that I happen to want to ride in dressage?

One run in particular I'm thinking of, a young cow horse at a major event, was the horse's willingness and how on-the-aids he was. The harmony was (from me at least) a 10. He is a monster of an athlete, and had absolutely superior maneuvers (stops, turnaround, his fence turns, circling, all of it) but was in such harmony with his rider that she was invisible. It looked like he was going from 0 to 100 back to 0 all on his own, and his face was so happy the whole time. They absolutely had those basic athletic factors that are required - forward, straight, and correct contact for the sport he was doing, but the harmony was the pure 10. It was like watching Valegro work.

What a wonderful, inspiring thing to watch a partnership like that and try to replicate it with my horse. I still go back and watch that video, just like I watch Valegro's sometimes. And maybe if I work hard enough, I can get 10% as good as both of those riders with the contact in those respective sports :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:17 am

Chancellor wrote:Sorry that I was asleep at the wheel when things got a bit heated. When I am not working (like a four day weekend) I try to stay away from computers.

Since I was the only one who didnt delete posts I cannot tell if I am being subtley publically reminded of my manners or if something else was happening. By the way, i swear in conversation too. It is not classy. I constantly attempt to be better and then I open my mouth and the swear words fall out.

I shall once again try to do better.
Last edited by Chisamba on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:39 am

Chisamba wrote:..and then I open my mouth and the sweat words fall out.


:lol: :lol: :lol: that's so funny! I have a fairly bad potty mouth too, at least typing does give me a chance to catch them as they fall out.

Thanks for saying Ding is gorgeous Kelo :) He is an adorable fellow. Fat and furry right now, but adorable all the same.
I"m going to take down my pics though.. feel a bit self conscious about them and this thread is a bit mucked up now.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:14 am

Flight , I learn from your pictures every day. Leave the pic up, I'll remove my comment

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:15 am

Back to connection.

One of the more difficult aspects of connection is how the rider influences the hind leg. As I understand it, the goal has three aims. To encourage the horse to change it's natural inclination to carry most weight on one strong front leg and distribute it over all four legs. (Briefly this is needed because the horse us now carrying the extra weight of a rider )

Also to evenly distribute this weight through all the joints if the hind end. (Because this reduces wear and tear)

Basically as trainers we are the horses physical therapist, we work on developing balance and muscling that benefits the horses health and well being for decades.

Now, I personally do not know a way to influence the hind leg as well as a connection. By connection I specifically mean being able to influence the hind leg by using the rein which is attached to the bit. If one does not use the bit correctly the horse has multiple ways of bending, it can lift, lower or bend its neck , it can push a shoulder out, push its haunches in move its ribs and basically rearrange its body in many ways to avoid using it "weak" hind leg.

I have a chain at the barn with three links. I drop it on the sand and it lands bent. I tell my students straighten the chain. Usually they adjust it one link at a time til it's more or less straight. This is how a rider without a connection straightens their horse.

I then take the first link and drag it forward, and the chain straightens itself.

If the horse accepts the connection, has a relaxed jaw and comfortable acceptance of the bit, and the rider pushes their hand forward, the neck lengthens from the wither to Crest, and this transmits through every link of the chain. The hind foot steps more under the weight and the back swings and the shoulders align and when the horse meets the bit it pauses, rebalance and recycles that momentum. It is by the lengthening of the body to the connection, the going from a coiled to an elongated and back to a coiled balance that I am able to teach my horses the physical advantages of balance and straightness.

I am being especially carefully not comparing this to other training methods. But this method has improved many horses if many types in my care. Vets talk about how much sounder the horses are, carriers remark on how well the hooves are growing, my horses have very few stall vices, no cribbing, no kicking no pawing no pacing. If I get a horse in that has these issues, with time and exercise these tend to go away. I can see over time low backs strengthen, ewe necks reshape, hips and thighs and shoulders align.

I find the connection both physically beneficial and as I said earlier, communicative.

I have ridden endurance, jumpers, western ranch horses , working cow horses, reining, and working equitation. For me, dressage is the most beneficial and transforms the horse positively the most. Most of my ability to physically improve horses is due to a connection, contact, or the communication through the reins.

That said, I honestly do not understand the antipathy toward it.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:32 am

In the avatar picture of Kea Kea piaffe, I like the way she has flexed all the joints of her hind leg and lowered her croup, I like the lightness and elevation of the front. I think she needs more lift in the underside of her neck. I was working on that when I lost her.

My current horses, Kimba and Deneb I struggle more with their acceptance of the bit than any other horse I have trained. I was in an explorative open minded phase of life when I started them. A clinician in legrete came and I took clinics with them, and five years later I am still apologising to them every ride.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Josette » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:15 am

My 2 cents is I really liked this topic because I continue to learn from those of you who are far more advanced in your riding. It is an area I've struggled with my guy but we have both made significant progress. Lovely cooperative early morning ride yesterday. :D

Chisamba - I could probably match you in "passionate" replies in defense of horses or any animal. period. :)

Chisamba wrote: "If the horse accepts the connection, has a relaxed jaw and comfortable acceptance of the bit, and the rider pushes their hand forward, the neck lengthens from the wither to Crest, and this transmits through every link of the chain. The hind foot steps more under the weight and the back swings and the shoulders align and when the horse meets the bit it pauses, rebalance and recycles that momentum. It is by the lengthening of the body to the connection, the going from a coiled to an elongated and back to a coiled balance that I am able to teach my horses the physical advantages of balance and straightness."

This is exactly what I was initially struggling with my guy. How to get the accepting connection when the jaw was not relaxed and he was tense. These were the retraining obstacles I was trying to resolve. Part of it was trust not knowing his prior background and training baggage. Relaxation was critical - so trail walks are a regular part of our routine. We have made slow progress and still working to make it a consistent work ethic.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:17 am

I like the chain link analogy, Chisamba.
I can't find it now, but you mentioned how the method of Legerete wasn't so good for your horses. Are you able to explain more?

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:12 am

Flight, it was like getting driving directions. If you know one route from A to B and are already on route and some one tells you going via C is better but they dont know where you are and you don't know where C is so you follow their directions and end up lost in an area where everything is boarded up and the lights are off and you damage your car.

Route C may well be a lovely route but its nearly impossible to find some one who actually knows the way and I have no desire to get my car damaged in the ghetto between the route I know and the fabled other way.

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Re: Good connection

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:31 pm

The chain illustration is great! I like your other descriptions of contacts too, Chisamba, especially:

"The horse tells me through the weight in the rein 3 things,
-How comfortable it is with the work.
-How strong or weak it is behind
-How balanced it is."

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chancellor » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:08 pm

Chisamba wrote:
Chancellor wrote:Sorry that I was asleep at the wheel when things got a bit heated. When I am not working (like a four day weekend) I try to stay away from computers.

Since I was the only one who didnt delete posts I cannot tell if I am being subtley publically reminded of my manners or if something else was happening. By the way, i swear in conversation too. It is not classy. I constantly attempt to be better and then I open my mouth and the swear words fall out.

I shall once again try to do better.


I can see deleted posts!
And um, when have I ever been SUBTLE?


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