Good connection

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
demi
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Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:17 am

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Re: Good connection

Postby StraightForward » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:09 am

So I focused more on the colt starting portion of my Buck Brannaman report, but he talked a ton about having a "soft feel" which is pretty much having an off-contact connection. He can sit on his bridle horse and flinch a muscle in his thigh and achieve flexion whichever way he wants. I will say he is getting in his 4 year old's face more than I'm comfortable with to achieve that end goal. He would rather make his point than nag, and I think he takes a dim view of the constant dressage contact, but to me it's all shades of the same thing, and the horse can learn to adapt to each style of contact. There are different reasons for each approach, depending on the needs. I don't need that soft feel because I don't need to ride in a romel so I can rope a calf, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid way to train.

One thing Buck said that really resonated with me, is that the farther down your limbs your aids are, the more primitive of a rider you are. So as a rider refines their skills, the core/torso is the more important component of connection, and the rein tension becomes more of an artifact of the training method. Of course more advanced dressage riders also aspire to hold the horse with their seat and do movements with the reins in one hand, so different means to a similar end. Personally, I have always dreamed of training a bridle horse, and recently have been thinking that might be Annabelle's next career once Tesla is on her way down the dressage path.

ETA: one of the most impressive things I've seen in my riding life is sharing a warmup ring with Bob Avila and watching how he can collect a horse on a loose rein. He can make a horse's body into an accordion, with very little tension.
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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:58 am

I personally love this way of going and it's what i aspire to with my horses!

I rode for many years and was taught to always look for the horse to be a weight in my hand, that I always needed to feel the horses mouth. I'm learning otherwise and I really like it.
I used to ride Ding with (what I now think) is a lot of contact, and to be honest I still find it hard to lighten up. I'm not sure if I've taught him to be 'heavy' or if he would always have been say compared to Norsey, who is much lighter.

The Valenca clinic with Ding, doing piaffe and being encouraged to give even more rein!
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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:35 pm

the horse looks ready to work and there is a lot to like.
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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:09 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:32 pm

Flight, I love that pic of you and Ding. I aspire to that! Your seat looks deep and connected, your position is super, and Ding’s attention is glued to you.
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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:43 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Josette » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:22 pm

Demi - lovely picture of your breeder on that mare. IMO that horse is connected to her rider by her mental state - she is ready for his next cue and focused in her work. Your later description of your TB and the trainer who made him heavy (sounds just like how my pony was trained) - I intensely dislike that style of training and riding. It seems to me it contradicts that the horse should be balanced and able to hold them self up. I am not going to hold up the front end of an animal who weighs a heck of a lot more than me. I like a baIanced and responsive horse and the riding discipline really doesn't matter for me. I'll take a lighter contact in my hands any day over a horse leaning and on their forehand/tripping. I recently viewed a gorgeous hunter mare over fences - and she was so light and responsive to her rider. She was stunning to watch and recently sold in low 6 figures. 8-)

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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:32 pm

I'm not on the same page with this as you guys. But then, that should not come as a surprise.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:41 pm

Remember a connected horse isn't the same as collected. Collected is more a physical thing- ie the horse has a % of weight behind, or not. A horse can be connected on the bit and not collected ie training level
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Re: Good connection

Postby Josette » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:44 pm

I will add that some of these horses are SO LIGHT and SENSITIVE to the hand that I would never be able to ride them. As usual I prefer and fall somewhere in the middle. :)

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:45 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:47 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Could that reining horse stretch FDO? I'm guessing not, but I could be wrong. Of course, reiners don't need to stretch down. Why even compare a reining horse or a bridle horse to what we want in a dressage horse?

Also, if the horse is truly light, we don't need a double bridle or a long shank bit, right?

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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:55 pm

I think the drooping reins when doing piaffe or some other highly collected movements are good. To go around a whole test with reins and posture like Flight has on that pic I would think would require the utmost balance from the horse and impeccible timing of the rider. The best in the country don't show it, so why I expect myself to be able to do it. Flight manages to pull it off and is a lot farther ahead than I am, so I have to consider that I am missing something.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Josette » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:56 pm

Rye - totally agree - even scary if you cannot touch them. But I don't want to go off topic here.

MC - regarding double bridles I really prefer to see lower level horses show in a snaffle - I mean 3rd. I love seeing an upper level horse ridden in a snaffle too.

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:59 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:00 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:48 pm

Ryeissa wrote:Remember a connected horse isn't the same as collected. Collected is more a physical thing- ie the horse has a % of weight behind, or not. A horse can be connected on the bit and not collected ie training level


I think it's perfectly possible for a connected horse to go from uncollected to collected in one stride though, and the horse in the pic looks like he's about to do that--or is in a balance from which he could do it.

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:51 pm

demi wrote:
I wouldn’t expect any dressage rider to go around for a whole test with droopy reins, either. I wouldn’t even want to imagine an extended trot with droopy reins.


That's how Racinet rode, which was very similar to how western bridle horses are ridden. He, and his students could demonstrate extended trot on droopy reins, because that's the way their horses were trained.

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:57 pm

musical comedy wrote: The best in the country don't show it, so why I expect myself to be able to do it.


I think if that kind of riding was rewarded in comps it wouldn't be long before all the best riders would be riding with droopy reins.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Kirby's Keeper » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:29 pm

I think it's more about when self carriage rather than collection is expected in the training process. A cow horse, reiner or other western working horse is expected to carry itself right from the beginning of the training. A horse in self carriage can be ridden with very light to no rein contact. The seat and weight aids are refined during that training. The horse in the OP's post appears to be striking off onto a right lead and locked onto their work. Don't forget that cow horses are still working horses and even though they might be in a show pen. They are expected to do their job without being micro managed by the rider which is the opposite of the bulk of our dressage horses.
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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:40 pm

musical comedy wrote:I think the drooping reins when doing piaffe or some other highly collected movements are good. To go around a whole test with reins and posture like Flight has on that pic I would think would require the utmost balance from the horse and impeccible timing of the rider. The best in the country don't show it, so why I expect myself to be able to do it. Flight manages to pull it off and is a lot farther ahead than I am, so I have to consider that I am missing something.


yeah, I think third level is when they show the "give the reins" idea at the canter, because this is when the horse is expected to be in collection and on the seat. Its in 3:2. and i know I saw it at the kentucky 5* dressage test too (Kentucky three day event)
https://www.usdf.org/docs/showflash/web ... F_3LT2.pdf

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:44 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:47 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:29 pm

the thing that i find not useful both in this horse and in Flights picture is the way the weight is loaded. both horses have a fiercly flexed fetlock an almost no flexion in the stifle or hock. in my opinion this is because if the horse does not stretch into the connection, you can load the hind leg but you cannot flex the hock , stifle and fetlock equally.

i also agree with Rye, which i do not always do, that the horse is not lifting or engaging its brisket and is , despite the high head, on the forehand.

these things are specific to the rebalancing that dressage requires, and perhaps differs in the definition of self carriage from western

having said that, i am only being critical based against dressage, its al ovely picture for its own sake
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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:47 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:36 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:58 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:06 pm

I'm not sure what you are looking for here demi, what specifically do you want to hear from us? I think we all like this horse very much, it's not a personal critique here. Looks like the style of horse I would like to ride.
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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:18 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:25 pm

demi wrote: I quit watching dressage for several years for the very reason that they looked so micromanaged. I like seeing more of a partnership.
Watch this video and look at it frame-by-frame. Is this not micromanaged? I see this work as tearing down rather than building up. What am I supposed to learn about self carriage from this??

https://www.facebook.com/Texasseahorse/ ... 439404105/

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:38 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:46 pm

Kirby's Keeper wrote:I think it's more about when self carriage rather than collection is expected in the training process. A cow horse, reiner or other western working horse is expected to carry itself right from the beginning of the training. A horse in self carriage can be ridden with very light to no rein contact. The seat and weight aids are refined during that training. The horse in the OP's post appears to be striking off onto a right lead and locked onto their work. Don't forget that cow horses are still working horses and even though they might be in a show pen. They are expected to do their job without being micro managed by the rider which is the opposite of the bulk of our dressage horses.


Kirby, you've explained what I'm after with my riding better than what I can! Yes it's the self carriage and the ease of riding is what I'm after.

Chisamba wrote:the think that i find not useful both in this horse and in Flights picture is the way the weight is loaded. both horses have a fiercly flexed fetlock an almost no flexion in the stifle or hock. in my opinion this is because if the horse does not stretch into the connection, you can load the hind leg but you cannot flex the hock , stifle and fetlock equally.

i also agree with Rye, which i do not always do, that the horse is not lifting or engaging its brisket and is , despite the high head, on the forehand.

these things are specific to the rebalancing that dressage requires, and perhaps differs in the definition of self carriage from western

having said that, i am only being critical based against dressage, its a lovely picture for its own sake


I always appreciate your input Chisamba. I'm not sure that shortening my reins and having more contact would change this in Ding? He is very straight behind and getting him to flex more through the hip/stifle/hock is a challenge in all gaits. But them maybe it would help? I'm not sure.

For the sake of the discussion. Here is the clinician riding Ding in piaffe. Better piaffe? Has more contact. Is it this that makes it better, or the fact he is being ridden by someone who is a better rider?? 8-)



Demi's original pic, is at a moment of canter where it if you paused video, you'd find many horses on the forehand, stronger contact or not??
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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:53 pm

Also riding with a looser rein doesn't mean you can't touch them. But it's just not having that constant pressure. You make your rein aid and when it's answered, you stop making that pressure. I don't normally ride with a loopy rein, but I try to have them so if I squeeze my fingers that the mouth feels it, and when I relax my fingers the pressure is gone.

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Re: Good connection

Postby demi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:55 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:20 am

musical comedy wrote:
demi wrote: I quit watching dressage for several years for the very reason that they looked so micromanaged. I like seeing more of a partnership.
Watch this video and look at it frame-by-frame. Is this not micromanaged? I see this work as tearing down rather than building up. What am I supposed to learn about self carriage from this??

https://www.facebook.com/Texasseahorse/ ... 439404105/


Yes, that didn't look like particularly nice riding to me.
I thought this was better?? (I've only watched the first horse in this vid)

https://youtu.be/m1ak9-pO3_4

We really don't want to start digging up bad dressage tests do we??!! I'm sure I could show you plenty of my own.. :?

Demi, this is a great topic because it causes such polar opposite opinions, which is fascinating seeing it's all about the one animal and the one sport (if we are looking at dressage).

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Re: Good connection

Postby StraightForward » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:14 am

I hope Kelo stops by and weighs in!
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Re: Good connection

Postby exvet » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:36 am

Of the majority of examples provided, I see horses that are in tuned to their rider and appear to be cooperating and waiting for the next single/cue. I'm not sure I would agree that I see the 'connection' as I use the term = recycling energy coming from behind, over the back to the bit as a horse who is truly through (in the way we use these terms in dressage) in every picture.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:41 am

So to have this recycling do you have to have no saggy reins? Or is it possible with a sag in the reins (can't think of a better word sorry!)

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Re: Good connection

Postby musical comedy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:07 am

Flight wrote:We really don't want to start digging up bad dressage tests do we??!! I'm sure I could show you plenty of my own.. :?

Demi, this is a great topic because it causes such polar opposite opinions, which is fascinating seeing it's all about the one animal and the one sport (if we are looking at dressage).
Why do you like to have a discussion that involves very opposite opinions? Do you learn from that? For me, it's like having a far right/far left political discussion. That just generates frustration and even anger in people.

I don't believe there should be such varied opinions on dressage. It wasn't that way in the jumping disciplines. Maybe it's changed; I don't know. When I was doing hunters and eventing, I used various clinicians and switched trainers a few times. I learned something from each, but there was never a big change in the way things were done. You could watch a hunter round, most would be in agreement which horses should be at the top.

With dressage, there is always some professional, some rider, or some article to point to and use to prove one's point.

When one has questions about contact and things like when/where to have drooping reins, for me the best source to ask is your trainer or a trainer/rider you admire.

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Re: Good connection

Postby kande50 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:27 am

Flight wrote:Also riding with a looser rein doesn't mean you can't touch them. But it's just not having that constant pressure. You make your rein aid and when it's answered, you stop making that pressure. I don't normally ride with a loopy rein, but I try to have them so if I squeeze my fingers that the mouth feels it, and when I relax my fingers the pressure is gone.


A loop in the rein (visible release of the rein) is what I see as a full release as opposed to a release within the contact.

For dressage, most seem to want the releases within the contact, and the only problem I see with that is that so many have been so willing to distort the idea of steady light contact into the kind in which the horses are required to suffer all the time, just to prevent the judges from being able to ever see any loop in the reins. IOW, smoke and mirrors, and the judges should be ashamed for allowing it.

Skillful riding, IMO, is when the horse is taught to take a light contact with the bit, and then that light contact becomes a steady light contact as the training progresses.

But rather than developing a steady contact over time, trainers instead lunge the horse in side reins so that they can teach him to push firmly against the bit all the time, right from the beginning and forever more. And then they call it an elastic contact to try to pretend that this abuse of the horse's mouth is actually a good thing.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:14 pm

musical comedy wrote:Why do you like to have a discussion that involves very opposite opinions? Do you learn from that? For me, it's like having a far right/far left political discussion. That just generates frustration and even anger in people.

I don't believe there should be such varied opinions on dressage. It wasn't that way in the jumping disciplines. Maybe it's changed; I don't know. When I was doing hunters and eventing, I used various clinicians and switched trainers a few times. I learned something from each, but there was never a big change in the way things were done. You could watch a hunter round, most would be in agreement which horses should be at the top.

With dressage, there is always some professional, some rider, or some article to point to and use to prove one's point.

When one has questions about contact and things like when/where to have drooping reins, for me the best source to ask is your trainer or a trainer/rider you admire.


Yes, I do learn from it. I don't believe my opinion is necessarily the correct way. I'm not an expert in riding.
Maybe it could cause frustration and anger in people, but it makes me curious, especially because there seems to be such varied opinions on dressage. I find this interesting therefore don't mind hearing other people's views.

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Re: Good connection

Postby exvet » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:31 pm

I think connection when using the term the way I was taught requires that we test it momentarily or for short periods of time to see if the horse can carry on in self carriage but energy, if not recycled, usually runs out and that is how I see it with trying to ride a horse truthfully from back to front with engagement and power. So there are times when I would expect to see a loop in the reins within the training of a dressage horse. I also think one can ride effectively or in harmony without that specific type of connection which would/could apply to a variety of disciplines but if we're going to discuss dressage which I believe this is the dressage training forum right? ....then I don't see a lot of benefit or appropriate progress and the correct development of strength and musculature of 'the dressage horse' if one is riding their 20 meter circles or trying to perform other movements primarily on a loose or looped rein.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Abby Kogler » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:44 pm

kande50 wrote:
Flight wrote:Also riding with a looser rein doesn't mean you can't touch them. But it's just not having that constant pressure. You make your rein aid and when it's answered, you stop making that pressure. I don't normally ride with a loopy rein, but I try to have them so if I squeeze my fingers that the mouth feels it, and when I relax my fingers the pressure is gone.


A loop in the rein (visible release of the rein) is what I see as a full release as opposed to a release within the contact.

For dressage, most seem to want the releases within the contact, and the only problem I see with that is that so many have been so willing to distort the idea of steady light contact into the kind in which the horses are required to suffer all the time, just to prevent the judges from being able to ever see any loop in the reins. IOW, smoke and mirrors, and the judges should be ashamed for allowing it.

Skillful riding, IMO, is when the horse is taught to take a light contact with the bit, and then that light contact becomes a steady light contact as the training progresses.

But rather than developing a steady contact over time, trainers instead lunge the horse in side reins so that they can teach him to push firmly against the bit all the time, right from the beginning and forever more. And then they call it an elastic contact to try to pretend that this abuse of the horse's mouth is actually a good thing.


Yes, this. Meh.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:11 pm

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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:01 pm

i skipped reading the rest because i wanted to respond to flight. i did not say shorter rein, i said connection, if you can only get a connection on a shorter rein, i guess that right there would be the problem .

as for all the anti side rein anti contact sentiment, ride the way you like, just remember you if you show you are being judged against a very specific set of rules and requirements. I would not expect to score well if i took my dressage horse in a connection into a western pleasure class where the requirements are very different.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:33 pm

kande50 wrote:
But rather than developing a steady contact over time, trainers instead lunge the horse in side reins so that they can teach him to push firmly against the bit all the time, right from the beginning and forever more. And then they call it an elastic contact to try to pretend that this abuse of the horse's mouth is actually a good thing.


I think you need to learn the proper way to longe in SR and then see if you might change your mind.
Last edited by Ryeissa on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chisamba
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Re: Good connection

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:46 pm

I am not even going to talk about side reins . The same opinion from the same people ad infinitum .

But, the bosal may be the harshest piece if equipment I've ever seen used. I could have taught my son what hot meant by pushing his hand into boiling water but I chose to be a bit more patient and subtle.

Put a bosal on your shin and take a bump. Never mind, it's ok if it hurts, horses do worse to each other in turnout . Self carriage is so pretty and effortless, until you realize its achieved by the fear of hell and damnation reigning down on its nose if it doesn't. Horses do not respond to a flexed thigh unless they have been told that ignoring it is worse.
If you haven't seen the video of Olympic reiners warming up. Smashing their horses into the wall at a gallop to get a real whoa in the slide. Bumping the fuck out of the horses mouth if it dare, I mean even consider daring, to take a weight in the rein. But ooh they are so effing superior to dressage riders because dressage riders allow horses to tell the rider what's going on behind through weight in the rein.

Ride the way you like. Be kind to your horse.

Just because I believe evolution exists doesnt mean that you may not read your bible and find joy in it, it just means not matter how many ways you try to tell me I am wrong is not going to change my mind.

It also means, thank you all for listening to me, but I realize I am not needed here and likewise I dont need to be here.

Dont worry abby I'm sure those horses knew exactly what they were getting into when the trainer put sude reins on.
Last edited by Chisamba on Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Good connection

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:50 pm

delete
Last edited by Ryeissa on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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