DefinitelyDressage.com

I'm so very over August, it is already September in my mind.

I have simple goals this 2-month period:

Annabelle - consistent, successful rehab. September is slated to be a month of tack-walking, then in October we will venture a little bit of trotting.

Tesla - Continue ground work, take at least 3 field trips, get on when ground person is able-bodied again.

Self - Continue 2x a week strength training and low-carb whole foods diet. Start running 2x a week as the weather cools, with a goal of 3x, for 10 miles per week by November. Audit at least 2 clinics (first is Melonie Kessler this weekend).

Loving this late summer weather! Goals for the next two months:

* hacking, hacking, hacking! Now that haying is over, we have access to two neighbouring properties, which means about 700 acres total.
* dressage lesson every week and clinic mid-October.
* jump school every second weeks, trying for rounds that look more like hunter rounds than jumper rounds (i.e. calm down and breathe, red mare)
* attempt some bareback rides, towards the goal of saddle-less winter trail rides

Trees are just starting to turn here in southeastern Ontario, so I am hoping for some good fall colour photos in this thread!

Kimba. Clean changes, a few piaffe steps, otherwise improve quality of gaits and elastic connection.

Sword head, introduce canter, improve stretch over topline in trot.

Deneb, ground work to walk under saddle.

Me, lose those last 5 pounds.
Rehab my back/hip
Work up to riding 6 horses a day.
Stress less by changing my perception of others actions towards me. ( I cant change my coworkers so I can only change how I feel about them)

I'll be out of town for two weeks in september, but hopefully it'll still be a productive couple of months.

MM:
Work on getting a more consistent connection through the lumbar
cross train as often as possible
Get this saddle finally sorted
Keep working on those changes--particularly keeping her from anticipating but also keeping her responsive to the aid
Go to a last show for the season?

RP:
Hard to have goals since I'm not sure what his healing timeline will be, but I'd love to find something to occupy his mind without putting impact on his body. So finding some ground work pieces or even 'tricks' to play around with while his shoulder heals. And if he starts getting sounder, I'll start getting him into work slowly.


Me:
I have some personal stuff going on, so my priority is to make sure I try to keep taking care of myself through this. It's easy when life gets hard for sleeping, eating, riding patterns to get erratic. So, just trying to sustain.

Well we're still in the throws of god awful heat but I'm hoping or a true fall. Goals are schooling show at the end of September debuting 2nd level. I was hoping to ride with Heather Blitz in October but I am scheduled to work; so, we'll just keep working on our strength and stamina with weekly lessons and see if we're really there come November.

I leave for Portugal tomorrow to ride with the Valenca's for a week. 2 riding lessons a day and one in hand each day. Looking forward to it!

Things have been very busy here, still getting horses worked 3-4 times a week. Some ups (rode Joplin last Friday!) and some not so good, Rip gave me a rough ride where he was really challenging me and I am not sure why. Lunging him he looks great. So he gets the week off while I'm gone (no one is really capable of even lunging him he's so challenging) my vet friend is going to come lunge Joplin and work her in hand a bit a few days while I am gone and I hope my boarder can work Gaila a bit, though my boarder is having a rough time right now. Unexpectedly lost her brother a week ago.

Weather has been cool but is heating up again. Not sure if we will have any impact with Dorian or not but it does not look terribly likely now.

Stay cool all!

Well my goals from last time was Norsey's changes.. guess we will keep going with that.
I did ride my first PSG test today! Definitely got some goals out of that

I wore my tails that I bought 10kg ago.... I put weight on around my bum and stomach so the fit wasn't great (that's ok, just another thing to fix).
I was pretty nervous so rode a bit defensively and despite this Ding did pretty well. For some stupid reason at the end of our 3x changes I though we hadn't done enough so tried to squeeze in 2 more at the end of the diagonal. Ding, bless him was like WTF and did a 1x change and on my test sheet a 7 was scrubbed out for a 4.
What else did I do wrong.. went for a hoon for the extended canter, didn't really ask for a good change at the end, Ding only changed in front.. I just kept cantering hoping for the best then finally had to pull him up and sort it out, so I stuffed 3 movements there!
Despite this, I was really happy that I gave it a go (we scored 62%) and every time I move up a level I'm very shaky for the first few attempts so I'm hoping I'll get better!
Here's a good pic! Wont show the bad ones

Congratulations Flight, that is an awesome milestone! 62% even with those few flubs is a great score and shows you'll be a few points higher next time no problem.

Such a lovely picture, Flight! Thanks for posting.

Awesome Flight!! You guys make a lovely team!
For me, at the risk of jinxing things, Miro and I seem to be both back in work (very slowly and very carefully). I cantered for the first time since Feb and Miro trotted under saddle for the first time since his accident last October. I’m cautiously optimistic about both of us. Andrea said she didn’t feel the slightest hiccup in him.

Flight I really admire your equitation there. The whole picture is exemplary.

Dresseur those photos are very nice. I would just like to point out you and flight are in the elite crowd in riding with a broken line up. At some point the books will catch up on this point given all the empirical evidence of efficacy.

Tsavo wrote:Dresseur those photos are very nice. I would just like to point out you and flight are in the elite crowd in riding with a broken line up. At some point the books will catch up on this point given all the empirical evidence of efficacy.

Flight has a straight line from bit to elbow.

MIRO AND DRESSUR ARE BACK! this made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm back to real work now after the big move/adjustment/car accident. My last event/thing is a show in oct.

I don’t want to jinx it, it’s going to be a long road for both of us!! I can barely canter properly. So for right now, we’re not back together- Andrea is handling his rehab so that I don’t risk reinjury. (She’s the one riding in the pics).

Dresseur wrote:I don’t want to jinx it, it’s going to be a long road for both of us!! I can barely canter properly. So for right now, we’re not back together- Andrea is handling his rehab so that I don’t risk reinjury. (She’s the one riding in the pics).

yup! You wear a helmet
best of luck with everything

Dresseur, so good to hear you and Miro are both moving in the right direction with your healing processes. Hope to see you back together and progressing soon!

2 tack-walk rides in on Annabelle sans Ace and no one died. Yesterday I tried to trot her a bit on the line to see if she is moving better after a few days on the methocarbamol. Trot looked better, then she blew her top. Glad she can keep that corked up while I'm on, but a good reminder to keep wearing my crash vest.

Rode Kyra this morning and took my stirrups away for the last 10-15 minutes. Found I can't sit the trot as well, but could better and more subtly do the t/c/t transitions. We got some really nice simple changes at the end. She has been pretty distracted by sounds coming from neighboring properties and things like that lately, but in between we are getting some really good work. SoloShot didn't work out for me the last two days, but I'll try again tomorrow.

Watched a local trainer riding a green bean at the Melonie Kessler clinic yesterday, and then the same rider on her 4th level horse today, which was interesting. The next ride was also a more advanced pair, but it came back to basics. I hope I can ride with her next year - since she is an S judge, she interjects the training with her perspective on how she judges, and where she thinks riders throw away points, which is interesting. With all the pairs she emphasized lightness and self carriage with forward hands and invisible aids.

Ryeissa wrote:

Tsavo wrote:Dresseur those photos are very nice. I would just like to point out you and flight are in the elite crowd in riding with a broken line up. At some point the books will catch up on this point given all the empirical evidence of efficacy.

Flight has a straight line from bit to elbow.

Print the picture and get a ruler and draw lines.

Tsavo wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:

Tsavo wrote:Dresseur those photos are very nice. I would just like to point out you and flight are in the elite crowd in riding with a broken line up. At some point the books will catch up on this point given all the empirical evidence of efficacy.

Flight has a straight line from bit to elbow.

Print the picture and get a ruler and draw lines.

The line from bradoon to elbow is straight. The line from the curb to elbow is not. When people talk about straight line from elbow to the bit and a full bridle is in play, I think they usually mean the bradoon. It's really not possible to get a straight line from both given that they are different angles.

Well I'd say I wasn't thinking about my position and hoping I knew the next move And Ding's face should be a bit more fwd and open at the gullet, and that's one of the 'good' photos! So much to work on.
Great news that Miro is back in action Dresseur! Hoping both your rehabs go well and no more setbacks!

Straightforward, good that Annabelle is looking better too.

blob wrote:

Tsavo wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:
Flight has a straight line from bit to elbow.

Print the picture and get a ruler and draw lines.

The line from bradoon to elbow is straight.

We must be looking at two different pictures

Tsavo wrote:We must be looking at two different pictures

Isn't this typical when photos are discussed? The 'line' imo include the reins. I agree with Tsavo. It's a broken line, and that's because the reins are too long and raised.

well, ultimately, I don't really care too much whether it's straight or broken. I don't think either way is always the right way. I do think it's a lovely picture regardless.

Flight, sounds like you must have had some really great moments in your test. Congrats on the first PSG! A 62% is a score to be pleased with, especially with some obvious errors that can be fixed next time.

Dressuer, glad to hear you and Miro are both getting yourselves back into work! Excited to hear updates.

Straightforward, glad things are moving forward with yours and so glad Annabelle is doing well. I'd love to hear more clinic notes, if you have them/feel like sharing. I find auditing with a good clinician to be extremely helpful.

musical comedy wrote:

Tsavo wrote:We must be looking at two different pictures

Isn't this typical when photos are discussed? The 'line' imo include the reins. I agree with Tsavo. It's a broken line, and that's because the reins are too long and raised.

It's a smidge high maybe...but not bad. Maybe 1" too high. Better 1" too high than 1" too low as then it presses down on the bars.
If we were really assessing the contact id need to see a full ride at home that indicates if this is something that shows up when Flight is doing a certain movement etc.

In my opinion Flight has simply released forward toward the crest. I do that to lengthen the neck or give self carriage without losing collection.

Imho, Andrea consistently rides above the straight line.

No criticism intended for either.

Flight congrats on your PSG. Well done .

Chisamba wrote:In my opinion Flight has simply released forward toward the crest. I do that to lengthen the neck or give self carriage without losing collection.

Imho, Andrea consistently rides above the straight line.

No criticism intended for either.

Flight congrats on your PSG. Well done .

Thanks Chisamba! Well I watched the video and Chisamba this is correct, the photo is happening when I've given a release

Here I am in two consecutive moments, working on half steps toward piaffe. In the first photo I released forward, toward the crest, if I released toward the crest I do not want stretch down, I am rewarding carriage. In the next photo she stepped forward into the contact and my hands are in their more normal.position, and i can often get to high in my hands. Of course the yaya birds will find lots to yaya about. Many obvious imperfections.

Chisamba, I personally think you are doing an exemplary job with Kimba. It’s not easy at that level and there will always be imperfections, but you are well aware of what needs to happen and work toward it. Training is not without bad moments and I always wonder why we have to apologize for those rather than share openly so that we can all learn.

Re the reins, yes, Andrea often shows a broken line up. That being said, she is often giving upwards hh. In Miro’s case, he was threatening to buck every few steps lol. But, I also note that in that one 5 min ride, she has his pill the highest point, something that I didn’t quite have. So, overall, it’s a case by case scenario, as shown by this sales horse.


And, because it may be helpful to some... here’s the sequence showing the upward hh and why she’s choosing to ride with higher hands here.
1. Relatively straight line bit to elbow, but M has curled.

Dresseur wrote:Chisamba, I personally think you are doing an exemplary job with Kimba. It’s not easy at that level and there will always be imperfections, but you are well aware of what needs to happen and work toward it. Training is not without bad moments and I always wonder why we have to apologize for those rather than share openly so that we can all learn.

Nobody knows that better than I. Nobody needs to apologize or makes excuses for less than perfect moments. No need to get defensive either, or pissed when someone points out something.

Re the reins, yes, Andrea often shows a broken line up. That being said, she is often giving upwards hh. In Miro’s case, he was threatening to buck every few steps lol. But, I also note that in that one 5 min ride, she has his pill the highest point, something that I didn’t quite have. So, overall, it’s a case by case scenario, as shown by this sales horse.

If you say so. Why then is just about every still shot of her showing the extreme broken line? It's the style she and most of his proteges have. Why do you think it is a good thing that Andrea is having the poll highest point on Miro at this point in time? I would think that after 8-9 months off work, he should be ridden more lower and over the back.

2. Upward hh
2. Release of hh

3. Back to poll high, not leaning

MC, I just saw your question after I put this together. The assumption seems to be that because he’s being ridden up, he’s not working over his back. This was one 5 minute ride to assess if anything could be felt under saddle. and this happened after 2 months of hand walking, followed by in hand trotting etc. So yes, he should be coming back in the proper shape, not being allowed to lean or curl. If she were to try to ride him low and down, he’d buck like a son of a gun and possibly re-injure himself.

As to why many stills show a more extreme line- that’s because often, the horses self carriage and reach are better after the upward hh, and she’s deliberately choosing photos that show the horse off the best since most images are from sales posts.

For the high hands, I’d rather that than act on the bars of the mouth and hold the horses in position, and it does vary from horse to horse. And it’s a system that I’m comfortable with, that has shown horse after horse being started, backed and progressing happily and comfortably up the levels with very few injuries despite up to 18 horses in training at any given point in time. And with multiple horses trained up to GP, I figure it’s the best bet that I have getting to GP in a manner that I feel is right for my horse and I.

well understand bringing the horse back into work in a lower frame. I think that is what i would choose to do, but mostly when i bring a horse back i do ten to fifteen minutes of walk, and then just a few minutes of trot, and if my horse was wanting to buck, i know i would keep the head up, lol.

But I am more inclined to use the whole range of longitudinal and lateral suppleness for various reasons, i will often longe the horse to see at what posture they are working most freeling through the back, and then i will for that horse at that time, work in that balance ( or posture) in lateral flexion. I also believe that if you have to constantly put the bit in the lips of the horse, and avoid the bars, they have not accepted the bit and are not comfortable in their jaw. to improve the suppleness in the jaw i will work in changed of direction, with very mild changes of flexion so the horse loosens up in the TMJ region, and does not take the flexion toward the mid neck,
it is a work of constant focus because horses most often show stiffness and tension in the jaw, and i prefer to fix it than to avoid it, by "lifting" the bit, al la legrete, again this is the method i am comfortable with and know, so it is the route i use. I have discussed this with abby , galop and others who prefer the method of the lifted bit but the method does not resonate with me. does not mean i cannot admire the successes of riders who do train this way.

so, studying my video, i find i tend to have high hands when, i give forward, ( correctly high) or when my horse drops behind the vertical ( in my training my response is the worst thing, becuase i want the horse to ride forward to the bit from the hind end, so i should keep my hand in a straight line and quicken the hind, no pick up the front which can result in a dropped and stiff back ( when I do it) i am working on training myself to not follow th second course of action

,

PS i think breeds of horse that are naturally quick ( the iberian breeds being an example) may already be quick behind and have no problem stepping under when the neck is raised, i never had a problem with it when i rode arabians. but now that i have draft crosses, i find lifting the neck really results in a trailing hind end

I agree with that, and you’d see that the draft cross or friesian crosses A rides (like Aria) have a lower hand than the Iberian breeds which is what she mostly has. And then usually as they go up the levels, the hand comes down. (btw, this horse is built fairly downhill).

Dressur has her silver medal and shows lovely work. I'm inclined to believe she is just fine how she is and doesn't need anonymous assistance from unknown persons who may or may not be able to implement results.

All the photos shared here are lovely!

Ryeissa wrote:Dressur has her silver medal and shows lovely work. I'm inclined to believe she is just fine how she is and doesn't need anonymous assistance from unknown persons who may or may not be able to implement results.

I don't see anyone telling her to change, just discussing the different styles. I appreciate the questions and Dresseur's willingness to explain how it works on different horses. It's important to have that information out there so people don't try to mimic something they don't understand. Personally, I find this discussion really interesting.

Blob, I didn't really take notes, but on the 4th level horse when I arrived yesterday, they were working on changes. He is a big long tank of a horse, and would tend to get one change and go way too flat to achieve a line of changes. They ended up pushing his canter way out around the whole school to get him moving, then keep the energy on canter voltes. After several minutes of that, his changes got way more airtime and she was able to keep him round. She was instructed to get 100# off of him and get his fitness up so he would be sharp enough to keep the energy for the PSG work.

The green horse the first day (probably not quite a TL horse yet) was I think a FriesianX with a big, upright neck. She talked about degrees of contact with that horse on a scale of 1-10. The priority was getting the horse to go FDO to the bit, and keep the contact very light, never going over a 3. She had the rider comb the reins in walk and trot to get her reaching down. She said it would take about 9 months to get the horse's topline built so the underneck would go away, but it was really important to be able to put her neck FDO before trying to ride her more on contact, because she would just end up in a false frame and tight in the back. The mare was also nervous and going over tempo at first, so she made sure she slowed down, and said don't mistake running flat with going forward

An exercise she recommended for everyone is the "box" - sidepass about 10' from the rail, reinback 10', then sidepass back to the rail with very deliberate, slow steps and keeping the horse parallel to the rail. She said this is more for the rider to learn how subtle they can be with the weight aids.

As far as judging, she said if an average-moving horse is between scores on a movement, she will tend to go up on the score because the rider is getting the best work possible out of the horse. She said if you have an 8 mover, than you really need to be looking at your lower movement scores and figuring out where your basics are lacking, because each movement can be an 8.

I’ll also add as Chisamba astutely pointed out in an offline conversation, where you can get away with holding your hands depends a lot on how you address the hind end. Andrea can get away with a higher hand because she doesn’t lose the hind end. High hands without the proper amount of energy behind can create absolute elevation and a hollow horse with trailing hocks, which is why I I think people can run into trouble trying to mimic legerete techniques. It requires a focus on the hind that many of us just can’t execute.

Thank you for your notes SF!

StraightForward wrote:Blob, I didn't really take notes, but on the 4th level horse when I arrived yesterday, they were working on changes. He is a big long tank of a horse, and would tend to get one change and go way too flat to achieve a line of changes. They ended up pushing his canter way out around the whole school to get him moving, then keep the energy on canter voltes. After several minutes of that, his changes got way more airtime and she was able to keep him round.

I find that interesting; i.e. that flatness prevent series changes. My old guy had very confirmed changes, but sadly flatter. With a single change, I could get some lift, but with the tempis, they were flat. Because of that, I got a 5 even when the count and straightness was there. So, two things here I ponder. One is if a flat change makes series changes more difficult, and I've just been lucky to get them. The other is wonder why a lot of airtime in the changes is wanted. Of course I know it scores well, but wondering why it's a good thing. Personally, in doing a line of changes, my attention was more on getting the change, getting the count, and keeping the straightness.

It’s the collection and energy- if the horse is flat in the changes because energy has been lost, then it’s almost impossible to get tempis, which is why the fix was to go forward to get the hind driving up. That’s different than expression, which are the big bounding changes desired in competition. Your horse may not have had a lot of expression (flatter changes) but had enough good balance and collection to achieve tempis, whereas this horse sounds like it may have been flat due to lack of good, forward energy. Remember, slow is not collection. And, horses have a higher or lower threshold in how good the canter needs to be depending on their individual talent for changes.

Dresseur wrote:It’s the collection and energy- if the horse is flat in the changes because energy has been lost, then it’s almost impossible to get tempis, which is why the fix was to go forward to get the hind driving up. That’s different than expression, which are the big bounding changes desired in competition. Your horse may not have had a lot of expression (flatter changes) but had enough good balance and collection to achieve tempis, whereas this horse sounds like it may have been flat due to lack of good, forward energy. Remember, slow is not collection. And, horses have a higher or lower threshold in how good the canter needs to be depending on their individual talent for changes.

Yep, lazy horse; he would just die out after the first change and she would have to kind of throw him off balance to get a second change at all. Once he put more jump into the first change, he landed still having enough jump in the canter to heave his 1600# up and get another change. I think she spent a couple years at 3rd level with this horse, and maybe got a little too comfortable with doing a nice, polite single change. I'm not sure how they were scoring, but I've watched them do some very nice, smooth 3rd level tests. He is kind of a unique horse because he doesn't get into a very compressed frame at all, he is just long and low, so I think the jump needed to be emphasized more than on a horse that is naturally more upright/light on its feet.

Just for the purpose of discussion, I think one person's "flat" may be another persons "slow " slow being not enough suspension in the stride to make multiple changes. Flat could be a stride with collection and jump that does not have a lot of knee lift.

For example I prefer a flatter pirouette, because too much knee lift results in a rearing turn with both hind legs grounded. If we get too up in front in the changes it looks expressive but can also result in hopping with both hind legs into the change.

Jmho

If any apologies for broken line upward are due I suggest they start with the top riders in the world. Then maybe we will move down the line.

Tsavo wrote:If any apologies for broken line upward are due I suggest they start with the top riders in the world. Then maybe we will move down the line.

? what does this mean?

If people are happy with how they ride and the horses go well for them, who cares?

I personally choose to use a straight line from bit to mouth but it's not the only school of thought. As I said, the bit being more in the corners of the mouth produces better contact vs being too low with the hands.

I'm all about the straight line being the optimal biomechanically, and I Have seen in my riding I get the best connect AND SOFTEST ARMS FOR ME when this is the case. Also, for me a certain elbow and arm placement is optimal, which is the "classical way" but it's functional. not just pretty. I tense my forearms when I deviate from this line, and I use my seat the best in this placement. (arms do relate to the psoas muscles and neutral spine)

Dresseur is very intentional with the HH and lifting the hands. It is done with control and sensitivity. Her and Andrea's horses go better than 99% of those I see, so they have my respect. I could see using these ideas if I faced a situation that warranted it, saying no for the sake of JUST "don't break the line from bit to mouth ever" is very short sighted. Again, the horses will tell if this is correct. I think there is a lot of misapplication of this theory, and a lot where the broken line is done randomly with out bringing the haunches along with.

Dresseur wrote:I agree with that, and you’d see that the draft cross or friesian crosses A rides (like Aria) have a lower hand than the Iberian breeds which is what she mostly has. And then usually as they go up the levels, the hand comes down. (btw, this horse is built fairly downhill).

33625605-E19C-4A66-95F5-019AC84553B2.jpeg

This is lovely, the hind and forelegs "v" match really nicely. it looks like one complete horse from nose to tail.

StraightForward wrote:I don't see anyone telling her to change, just discussing the different styles.

MC did.

This is a very interesting discussion regarding techniques and how they may be applied to various horse breeds and training level. It makes better sense as to why the rider would use them and when/why per the horse (breed). As noted in some cases a technique should to be used by experienced riders and trainers.

Many years ago while auditing a clinic (can't recall who) there was an older TB with his ammy owner schooling tempi changes. This was a more compact built TB (not the hunter look) with a very quiet way of going. The rider did a lovely job applying invisible aides for transitions as responsive and obedient - simply a quiet softer ride to the observer. Of all the horses present (all WBs except this TB) this horse did perfect straight down the line tempi changes (flatter) - no swinging or late changes - no mistakes. The changes were not expressive like the WBs and he did not show the lift desired in the show ring. However, this horse was obviously fit and balanced making the changes look super easy and the rider barely moved to apply the aids. IMO it was lovely to watch as I prefer to appreciate each breed type.

Ryeissa wrote:

StraightForward wrote:I don't see anyone telling her to change, just discussing the different styles.

MC did.

Do you mean when she asked why M is being ridden poll high, or did I miss a different comment? She asked why the horse was being ridden poll high, because her experience/approach would be different in that situation. There's a difference between being skeptical and trying to understand, and criticizing or leveling unsolicited advice.

Ryeissa wrote:

StraightForward wrote:I don't see anyone telling her to change, just discussing the different styles.

MC did.

My understanding is that MC said she thought poll high wasnt best for a horse coming back from injury. Not a thing about changing style .

musical comedy wrote:

Dresseur wrote:Chisamba, I personally think you are doing an exemplary job with Kimba. It’s not easy at that level and there will always be imperfections, but you are well aware of what needs to happen and work toward it. Training is not without bad moments and I always wonder why we have to apologize for those rather than share openly so that we can all learn.

Nobody knows that better than I. Nobody needs to apologize or makes excuses for less than perfect moments. No need to get defensive either, or pissed when someone points out something.

Re the reins, yes, Andrea often shows a broken line up. That being said, she is often giving upwards hh. In Miro’s case, he was threatening to buck every few steps lol. But, I also note that in that one 5 min ride, she has his pill the highest point, something that I didn’t quite have. So, overall, it’s a case by case scenario, as shown by this sales horse.

If you say so. Why then is just about every still shot of her showing the extreme broken line? It's the style she and most of his proteges have. Why do you think it is a good thing that Andrea is having the poll highest point on Miro at this point in time? I would think that after 8-9 months off work, he should be ridden more lower and over the back.

This was the post. I took it as negative and so did Dresseur. If it wasn't meant as such perhaps re work the statements to be more clear .