DefinitelyDressage.com

This is Mrs. Horse Problems Australia.

Isn't it known that judges can only see certain things from certain vantage points? Isn't this just optics? In that case the lowest mark is the correct one, yes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ionTzTw3e4Q

I dont know what point is being made. I do know that accusing the judge of being moody or emotional seems to be transference.

If anything the maker of the video should take into account that the judges see different views and should have different perspectives. Also some judges routinely score more generously than others.

In our area a 65 from one judge is just not as satisfying as a 65 from another.

I think he's being a whiner.

But no, I don't necessarily agree that the lowest score is always "the correct one" as there as so many different aspects that make up that score--the combination of the two (or more) viewpoints and scores gives a more rounded picture of the quality of a movement or a ride.

Several years ago, one of our local shows scored two exceptional judges for some reason--I think it was Hilda Gurney and Janet Foy if I remember rightly. Being church-going Utah, on Sunday the rides were a bit thin on the ground, so as they'd paid for both judges for the whole day, they had the brilliant idea of putting them both in the one ring... Now THAT was a daunting trip down centerline at training level

Judges are ordinary people just like us. I think most all try to be honest, but lets face it, they have their pet peeves and preferences just like we do. One judge's 7 is another judge's 6 and vice versa. It's when you get two point variances that you start to question it.

To show you how people notice different things, do you know what I noticed first on that video? I noticed the dusty ring.

The reason I thought the lowest one was correct is because sometimes only one judge can see a mistake. The other one can't physically see it so marks higher. That's the reason they have multiple judges; if you could see everything from one place then they would have one judge or they would seat multiple judges at the same place. I don't understand this video.

Tsavo wrote:This is Mrs. Horse Problems Australia.

Isn't it known that judges can only see certain things from certain vantage points? Isn't this just optics? In that case the lowest mark is the correct one, yes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ionTzTw3e4Q

No the lowest score isn't the best one. Its an average for a reason.

This is a super weird video and sounds like someone was upset with the score they got. Often, the C judge will score a bit higher because things can be hidden from the judge. The side judges have a much better vantage point in terms of seeing movements. For instance, that circle - the horse kept losing balance and some loss of rhythm could be seen - and, it was a bit on the forehand - the C judge could have commented on that - the side judge was right to do so. The halt, while it looked square and relatively straight, it was abrupt, and from the side the haunches could have been out behind. IMO, the haunches were cocked to the inside and the judge at C could have marked a bit down for that. My guess is the horse did scramble into it. This is an upper level test if the rider is doing 8 meter voltes and cantering down center line to a halt, the balance in the circles should be better. And, as far as final insult... rider marks are often connected to the highest marks the judge gives you in the test - so of course the side judge would be lower. It's not an insult. That's showing.

Dresseur wrote:This is a super weird video and sounds like someone was upset with the score they got. Often, the C judge will score a bit higher because things can be hidden from the judge. The side judges have a much better vantage point in terms of seeing movements. For instance, that circle - the horse kept losing balance and some loss of rhythm could be seen - and, it was a bit on the forehand - the C judge could have commented on that - the side judge was right to do so. The halt, while it looked square and relatively straight, it was abrupt, and from the side the haunches could have been out behind. IMO, the haunches were cocked to the inside and the judge at C could have marked a bit down for that. My guess is the horse did scramble into it. This is an upper level test if the rider is doing 8 meter voltes and cantering down center line to a halt, the balance in the circles should be better. And, as far as final insult... rider marks are often connected to the highest marks the judge gives you in the test - so of course the side judge would be lower. It's not an insult. That's showing.

In other words, the lowest score is correct.

In this case, my guess is it is.

Tsavo wrote:

Dresseur wrote:This is a super weird video and sounds like someone was upset with the score they got. Often, the C judge will score a bit higher because things can be hidden from the judge. The side judges have a much better vantage point in terms of seeing movements. For instance, that circle - the horse kept losing balance and some loss of rhythm could be seen - and, it was a bit on the forehand - the C judge could have commented on that - the side judge was right to do so. The halt, while it looked square and relatively straight, it was abrupt, and from the side the haunches could have been out behind. IMO, the haunches were cocked to the inside and the judge at C could have marked a bit down for that. My guess is the horse did scramble into it. This is an upper level test if the rider is doing 8 meter voltes and cantering down center line to a halt, the balance in the circles should be better. And, as far as final insult... rider marks are often connected to the highest marks the judge gives you in the test - so of course the side judge would be lower. It's not an insult. That's showing.

In other words, the lowest score is correct.

No, the score that each judge gives is correct according to what they saw. If the judge couldn't see that the halt wasn't on the forehand, then they wouldn't have scored on that.

It seems like the rider is just whining, though it is annoying it have such different scores, they aren't that off. There are always differences in judge's preferences, which doesn't make it wrong.

That circle was much larger than 8 meters, which makes a 6 generous because it decreased difficulty. But, some judges see that, and some judges don't mind. I didn't see the scrambling, but was scribing for a judge who called that out every time. She did not want to see any change of pace. Other judges want more activity. That's all OK. Everyone has their preferences, and as long as it's in the realm, it's OK.

As a rider, I really understand the annoyance about hearing opposites from judges. One wants the head up no matter how dropped the back is, and another will say not collected. Another wants forward, forward, forward, while a different one will call it quick. As a judge and as a scribe, it is insanely hard to come up with the exact correct comment for each score and everyone has a way they have to phrase things to manage all of that and keep focused for a whole day.

I had one of the best examples of true judging bias. Riding an Appy, I would get it. I was riding under the head of the FEI Eric Lette and an old German dressage judge I will not name who did not like spots. I got a 65% from Letter and a 45% from the German. THAT is bias. But, honestly, while there always is some, the judging is FAR better than it was 20/30 years ago. For the most part, I agree with the judges whether I am riding, scribing, or watching, and they are doing a pretty good job.

I could have easily gone on to get my judges card up to FEI, but I'm glad I did not and will not. It's fun to do for awhile, but every single weekend for eight hours at a time is a huge amount of work, and the pay for that time alone is not worth it, let alone all of the traveling and stress. I do appreciate the people that do it.

The first thing that comes to mind is that we are the ones who have chosen this sport of perfection, not to mention riding perfect circles in the dirt.

It does sound like someone is upset about about something or someone.

chantal wrote:The first thing that comes to mind is that we are the ones who have chosen this sport of perfection, not to mention riding perfect circles in the dirt.

It does sound like someone is upset about about something or someone.

Yeah, that is a dumb video. You could be messing with someone's income, so you should just give them better scores?

I guess the point is... judges are human? That two different humans sitting at two different vantage points, are bound to see different things and score accordingly?

Has anyone done an analysis of scoring for side judge and C judge? Does the same judge have different scoring averages based on their vantage point?

Eh, not buying it......those marks being 66 and 62 are not what I would consider grossly different. that is very typical. the emotion and weird logic makes this not someone who seems to be able to formulate a solid rationale.

This is a subjective sport to some degree, however, there is not some major problem with this scoring system/use of several judges.

If there is a problem then go to your governing body and petition. this is such a weird video, you choose to show and you don't always come out happy.

I finally watched this. My impression was that the complainer/video poster had never seen the exercises performed *well* for a genuine 7 or 8 or more. Hence, they thought what they did was better than sufficient or fair. The difference in scores is not that wild. This kind of rider venting/frustration is a not uncommon occurrence in this sport for participants who are new or have limited exposure or education.

Frankly, I've seen people who have competed in lower level dressage for *years* make similar complaints. They are not right, but they complain anyway!

Mrs. Horse Problems Australia is an FEI rider.

Tsavo wrote:Mrs. Horse Problems Australia is an FEI rider.

She's an excellent rider and a professional from what I recall. And Mr. HP, like him or not, I think is a downright excellent horseman.

https://www.victorharbortimes.com.au/st ... te-injury/

I agree they both can ride both sides of the horse.

I love their website. And I love typing out "Mrs. Horse Problems Australia" as many times in a post as possible. Mr. Horse Problems Australia refers to his wife as "Mrs. HP" so I take the cue from there.

Okay apparently Mrs. Horse Problems Australia is not just an FEI rider but a GP trainer.

Next.

Tsavo, you know what I really like about Mr.Hp? He seems to really support his wife and loves her.

musical comedy wrote:Tsavo, you know what I really like about Mr.Hp? He seems to really support his wife and loves her.

Yes absolutely.

I think they have saved many horses from slaughter. They have demonstrated how poor riding can really lame a horse.
Unfortunately the problem of poor riding skills is harder to solve than curing cancer.

Tsavo wrote: Unfortunately the problem of poor riding skills is harder to solve than curing cancer.

I disagree but with a caveat:

I don't think this is hard at all if the person is teachable and is in a good program. However, this person sounds defensive and I suspect would not really have it in him to be humble enough to improve, and/or wants to blame others.
There are many fundamentals that are easy to integrate, there is a clear path to improvement if the student is willing

Being Pollyanna isn't going to help. The situation on the ground is what it is.

Mr. Horse Problems Australia is an expert trainer.

Ryeissa wrote:I don't think this is hard at all if the person is teachable and is in a good program. However, this person sounds defensive and I suspect would not really have it in him to be humble enough to improve, and/or wants to blame others.
There are many fundamentals that are easy to integrate, there is a clear path to improvement if the student is willing

Okay then why aren't you training at GP level?

Tsavo wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:I don't think this is hard at all if the person is teachable and is in a good program. However, this person sounds defensive and I suspect would not really have it in him to be humble enough to improve, and/or wants to blame others.
There are many fundamentals that are easy to integrate, there is a clear path to improvement if the student is willing

Okay then why aren't you training at GP level?

Hi LizzardWoman,

My discussion here is about improvement and that skills are teachable. I was not discussing GP specifically. I don't really want to ride GP and I am quite happy with my program and scores.

Tsavo wrote:Being Pollyanna isn't going to help. The situation on the ground is what it is.

Mr. Horse Problems Australia is an expert trainer.

?
I am not sure what you mean. I am on the ground too. I have been doing dressage seriously for 30 yrs

Ryeissa wrote:

Tsavo wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:I don't think this is hard at all if the person is teachable and is in a good program. However, this person sounds defensive and I suspect would not really have it in him to be humble enough to improve, and/or wants to blame others.
There are many fundamentals that are easy to integrate, there is a clear path to improvement if the student is willing

Okay then why aren't you training at GP level?

Hi LizzardWoman,

My discussion here is about improvement and that skills are teachable. I was not discussing GP specifically. I don't really want to ride GP and I am quite happy with my program and scores.

Do you ride as well as you do research?

Tsavo wrote:

Ryeissa wrote:

Tsavo wrote:
Okay then why aren't you training at GP level?

Hi LizzardWoman,

My discussion here is about improvement and that skills are teachable. I was not discussing GP specifically. I don't really want to ride GP and I am quite happy with my program and scores.

Do you ride as well as you do research?

Reported, please leave me alone. I am trying to comment on the topics at hand and learn.

Tsavo has been banned permanently

I see his point. They are well known professionals in the area. It's common for professionals to have some people not like them for whatever reason and that includes judges. I am assuming that side judge is someone he feels doesn't like his wife. I am fully aware you can see different things from different angles. That halt did not deserve a 5.5. Yes, she was a smidge large for the 8m. Still, the horse was connected, relaxed, and the riding was good.

Chancellor wrote:Tsavo has been banned permanently

awesome, thanks so much.

musical comedy wrote:

Tsavo wrote:Mrs. Horse Problems Australia is an FEI rider.

She's an excellent rider and a professional from what I recall. And Mr. HP, like him or not, I think is a downright excellent horseman.

https://www.victorharbortimes.com.au/st ... te-injury/

Wow, I had no idea. See what I (don't) know. It seems odd to be complaining about scoring in this manner, though, if the rider is a professional.

piedmontfields wrote: It seems odd to be complaining about scoring in this manner, though, if the rider is a professional.

It does, but I recall some top rider in USA doing that on Facebook. I forget who it was.

musical comedy wrote:

piedmontfields wrote: It seems odd to be complaining about scoring in this manner, though, if the rider is a professional.

It does, but I recall some top rider in USA doing that on Facebook. I forget who it was.

It was CJ. She complained about the rider score she got from one of America's top judges.

Tanga wrote:

musical comedy wrote:

piedmontfields wrote: It seems odd to be complaining about scoring in this manner, though, if the rider is a professional.

It does, but I recall some top rider in USA doing that on Facebook. I forget who it was.

It was CJ. She complained about the rider score she got from one of America's top judges.

who is CJ?

Charlotte Jorst? Yes, I think it was her. There were two other BNTs that complained about stuff too. Not the judging but the audience noise and something else. One was that gay woman from california and the other I think was one from NY.

musical comedy wrote:Charlotte Jorst? Yes, I think it was her. There were two other BNTs that complained about stuff too. Not the judging but the audience noise and something else. One was that gay woman from california and the other I think was one from NY.

Yes. CJ. I don't know about the other ones. Isabel Werth blamed the photographers at the World Cup in Vegas with Warum Nicht I think.

I follow him a bit on FB, and I know (but don't quote me) that he has a bit of a beef with the quality of judging in Australia. So this would have been trying to back up his points.

Chancellor wrote:Tsavo has been banned permanently

Whew. Thinking back to the rodeo discussion.