Fabulous video on what's wrong with dressage

[Tanga]

I
The other question that comes to mind is do you really think a rider, riding to win, does not change the way they present a horse over a 39 year life span? One of the premises of the video is that the rider does not change. Different horses, different eras, different judging focus all influence how the rider presents their horse in the ring.

Thoughts?

Oooh. Good question. I don't think the premise of the video is that the rider does not change. I think the premise is more that as a rider she used to present horses more correctly, and now he's presenting horses more in a way that wins, but is not as correct.

As I said before, I think the judging and what wins starts all trends, ways of training, ways of riding, etc. When the judges change what they reward and bean, riders accommodate. I bet 100% that if IW started getting truly beaned on her extended trots every time they are bad and got the 3's and 4's she should instead of 7's at the international level, and every time Bella Rose showed unevenness and irregularity she was wrung out, IW would change and make corrections. She is more than capable. As it is now, the judges always bump her up in the marks that aren't as clear, like rider score or musicality, so that she's always winning by just a bit. It's a problem.

[Ryeissa]

You are putting way way more thought into my comment than I did when posting it.

I think it still looks ugly....you can see where there is a dent in the side because it's pushing in.
Top

I am putting more thought into it because reading [the] post simply underlined, for me, the differences in perception and perspective. We will have to agree to disagree which is perfectly fine. In this case, there is no right or wrong imo. I don't find the picture ugly. Do I prefer the same without the need for spur? Of course; but, I still see a rider who knows how to get results.

Again, I've never been overly fond of this particular horse and he always looked like a giraffe with lack of proper neck muscling. I'm not sure IW is completely to blame for this; in other words, what would he look like in someone else's hands - better? worse? I've seen both Gigolo and Warum Nicht in person. They are very different horses in build, style and way of going. Gigolo, imo, was a better horse.

I didn't find the picture ugly, after all I posted as a nice example of uphill balance. the spur was ugly

I think we are coming at this from different places- I am trying to stay focused on photos, not the backstories or why things happened.
I don't particularly like IW either but I'm trying to be more balanced and see some good in her riding.

[Ryeissa]

I
The other question that comes to mind is do you really think a rider, riding to win, does not change the way they present a horse over a 39 year life span? One of the premises of the video is that the rider does not change. Different horses, different eras, different judging focus all influence how the rider presents their horse in the ring.

Thoughts?

Oooh. Good question. I don't think the premise of the video is that the rider does not change. I think the premise is more that as a rider she used to present horses more correctly, and now he's presenting horses more in a way that wins, but is not as correct.

As I said before, I think the judging and what wins starts all trends, ways of training, ways of riding, etc. When the judges change what they reward and bean, riders accommodate. I bet 100% that if IW started getting truly beaned on her extended trots every time they are bad and got the 3's and 4's she should instead of 7's at the international level, and every time Bella Rose showed unevenness and irregularity she was wrung out, IW would change and make corrections. She is more than capable. As it is now, the judges always bump her up in the marks that aren't as clear, like rider score or musicality, so that she's always winning by just a bit. It's a problem.

Do you really think there is a difference of a 7 vs 3/4? that is kind of a big margin. I guess I give the judges more credit. I think the riding has improved a lot in the last 10 yrs after a dip to RK land. I find the judging is better overall.
Charlotte, carl, laura, etc are much nicer riders, and they ride very well, and I think the judging has been fair.
You might not like her, but I guess I trust the system a wee bit more than you do. I don't see these major flaws. Her lengthenings might be her bad movement, as each horse has a weakness. I don't recall seeing any issues but as I said before, a loss of rhythm doesn't always equal "lameness".

[musical comedy]

Just because it's what the video is about, regarding the Bella Rose picture, it looks lovely, but are we agreed that at no point in the trot is a horse supposed to have three feet on the ground? In theory at least there should still be a moment of suspension in half pass, do I think the naked eye could see that, probably not, but as has been stated, Bella Rose does from time to time look uneven.

I don't know. Does anyone here have an opinion on this?

[Dresseur]

I agree, at no point should the trot have 3 hooves on the ground. DAP or no DAP. It's a 2 beat gait, period. end of story. For me anyway...

[Rosie B]

I think you guys are trying to pick the fly poop from the pepper to borrow one of MC’s expressions.

Like I said earlier on the thread, you can find examples of all kinds of things that don’t adhere to classical principles if you watch videos frame by frame. The classical masters didn’t have the luxury of doing that, and the kind of slight positive or negative DAP that is being discussed here is not visible to the naked eye.

I have spent a truly embarrassing number of hours watching videos frame by frame from many different horse and rider combos, and it’s more typical that a horse has a slight positive or negative DAP than not, especially with the bigger movers.

[Tanga]

[
Do you really think there is a difference of a 7 vs 3/4? that is kind of a big margin. I guess I give the judges more credit. I think the riding has improved a lot in the last 10 yrs after a dip to RK land. I find the judging is better overall.
Charlotte, carl, laura, etc are much nicer riders, and they ride very well, and I think the judging has been fair.
You might not like her, but I guess I trust the system a wee bit more than you do. I don't see these major flaws. Her lengthenings might be her bad movement, as each horse has a weakness. I don't recall seeing any issues but as I said before, a loss of rhythm doesn't always equal "lameness".

Yes. Maybe not all of them, but I have seen more than one of her rides and horses where the extended trot was not only incorrect, but clearly uneven/lame. I have seen judges ring out people with much less in FEI competitions (this is me watching FEI tv lately) so, yes, she should be wrung out or a 3/4. In NO way should she be getting 7's on most of those trots. A 6 would be generous, and even a 5. This is the top competition in the world. It is not a time to be generous about that. She is winning the top competitions conveniently every single time by less than a margin of that, so it matters. And he always getting a better rider score than everyone else is doing the same thing. Of course she deserves a good score, but she is not better than everyone else, especially with this consistent flaw.

And, I agree, the riders are in general much better, as is the judging. I actually would like to see higher scores more, because the best of the best should be getting 80's and 90's regularly. They are that good in many areas.

And, I agree abut the half pass and three feet touching, but also agree that would be almost impossible to see live. It would be interesting to see if that is happening in other horses.

Just for fun. The first video of her that comes up at 50. This is not a good trot. This does not look lame, but it is way short behind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSc4nJx9Fhs If you pause, the trot isn't even tracking up. Same here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFO1UwqOHNE This one is starting to look lame. It has a hitch in the trot at 50: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFO1UwqOHNE

[Tanga]

Adding this because it says I can only put in three urls.
This is from five years ago and that could be lame or bizarre. Weird. At 1:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9uAatdntSU At 1:30 on this one it does not look good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2UZ5psF8I0

[musical comedy]

Tanga, does only this kind of thing bother you with the international riders? What about the judging nationally. Those people getting medals with late changes, no pirouettes, etc.? People showing second level getting 60+ and they have no mediums. People showing third level missing changes and having no extensions. Most judges don't give them a 4 if they have no extension or change. This kind of thing bothers me a whole lot more than the questionable judging of an extended trot in a cdi. It's been my experience that something has to be very bad for a judge to give a 3. Even 4's are not given out that frequently. Don't forget, several components make up a movement. To give a 4 says the whole movement was unsatisfactory.

I guess I am not interested in what they do at the top. Why are you? How do you think this affects you and the riders in the USA nationally?

[Tanga]

musical comedy--No, I think it's an issue at all levels, but I would never post someone's video who isn't a public figure, and I think it starts from the top down, so that's where you look to fix it. I agree with all you said. At champs. I'm about to go to, last time I was there CJ did a GP and did not have a single clean tempi line in any of her tests and won. Problem. It wasn't just one mistake, but many in each tempi line--that's a 2/3/4.

I do know how things are judged and the components. Just as I'd like to see a lot higher scores, I would also like to see a lot lower. As a rider, I much prefer a judge who will give 3's and 4's and 8's and 9's over everything that is is a 6 or 7. Yes, there are some rides like that, but as a scribe I see judges who just won't go low or high. I think it's more instructive and helpful to use the range more. I agree 3's and 4's are not used much, but I certainly think they should be when there are irregular gaits, stiffness, or outright lame if they're not eliminated. I think one or two of the rides I posted qualify, and those weren't the bad ones. I scribed recently for a judge that did just that to a training level rider, not in a mean way, but stating she needs to hold the standard. She spoke to her after the show, kindly explaining.

Why am I interested? I think I addressed this before. I love to talk about dressage and all of the minutia, and this is informative and instructive, and makes me think through things, which I hope makes me a better rider and trainer. I have a friend who just loves to do the same thing. Luckily we're going to the World Cup together so we can just talk and talk and talk. And, by the way, she loves IW and sees no wrong, but we can talk and talk and talk and just enjoy it.

That's OK if you're not interested in what they do at the top. I guess when discussing the "issues," it's easier to do it at the top and post pictures and videos without being cruel to people, which it would be if we did that with examples you gave.

[Chisamba]

I definitely think what happens in judging our top riders trickles down, but they get forgiven for stuff the average rider gets dinged for because they are the best.

I think we tend to watch and care about the top riders because they give us ideals, and things to aspire to. We get to see a lot more piaffe, passage, flying changes and everything that we hope to train. How the heck else are we supposed to know what it looks like. From reading books? Should I watch some local name to see what it should look like, or should I watch the best?

Hell when i started dressage in Zambia we had no electricity and no TV and computers weren't yet a thing and never mind hand held devices.

I read and saw pictures. I promise you, nothing i trained looked like it should.

Now its opposite. so much available we argue stupid stuff. Is on the vertical the forehead, or the cheek strap?

When a horse lowers its neck it looks behind the vertical without actually changing the throat angle. But people cry, its behind the very, no it just lust balance onto the forehand.

It is fun to discuss stuff tho

[Chancellor]

It is discussions like these that I enjoy this board even though I no longer ride. Lots of good thoughts happening here and it is nice to see. You can also agree to disagree....well done everyone!

[Ryeissa]

Adding this because it says I can only put in three urls.
This is from five years ago and that could be lame or bizarre. Weird. At 1:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9uAatdntSU At 1:30 on this one it does not look good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2UZ5psF8I0

I'm not seeing lameness, I saw a bad step but not lameness.....I did some more slow mo- screen by screen looks over this and I just can't see anything?

Overall the horse looked very nice. Its not my style of horse to ride, but I like Bella Rose. Isabel is not my personal favorite but I don't see anything wrong here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9uAatdntSU

[Kelo]

Watching Ryeissa's link, I sure don't see lameness either.

I can see the horse not being to some people's taste, but, IMHO, there is also a lot to like about the horse's work.