"Behavior "

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Chisamba
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"Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:46 pm

. In my other career I work with humans with disabilities, and often poor communication skills. So these individuals often have " behaviors". First thing we are taught is that every behavior has meaning, satisfies a need, or is an attempt at communicating.

I find this to be true for horses too. In my opinion, it is a complete insult to the cognitive ability of horses to assume they only react to pain. Horses can think, have preferences, be nervous or be confident, and yes, at times behavior can be related to pain. As it can in people.

So we are taught in my job that the how and when if the behavior gives the caregiver clues to what it means, how to replace undesirable behaviors with more acceptable ones. In my other life acceptable means able to hold a job, enjoy society without exclusion, communicate desires etc.

So relating this to horses... if I die tomorrow and my horses leave my care, they have a much much much better chance at a good life if they are polite, manageable rideable trainable etc.

So my job as a horse caregiver is to translate behavior, teach better ways to communicate, and solve pain

Thoughts?

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:13 pm

I agree completely. I do not have a fancy horse and am not a highly skilled trainer. But when my barn manager tells me "Your horse is so well behaved" or other riders say "You horse is so obedient" "Your horse is so consistent", it makes me very proud of my little mare and the journey we have taken together. And yes, I think it helps her have a better present and future, too. I only wish I had met my horse years earlier so that I could have helped to resolve her physical issues (tying up from PSSM) much earlier in her life.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby blob » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:19 pm

I definitely agree that not all bad behavior is linked to pain. It can be linked to many things for horses.

I think it's common for horses to 'act out' when the rules change on them. This can be because of a new rider or a change in program. But if a horse is always allowed to do a certain thing and then the expectation changes that they are no longer allowed to do that, there is usually a transition period where the horse might have some opinions about the change. I think as riders this is also a reminder to us that in order to be good horse people we should try to be as consistent with what we allow and don't allow as possible.

When I used to start young horses under saddle, I had one come to me that had a really difficult attitude. He was extremely stubborn, didn't want to move forward (on the ground), could act aggressively if pushed, etc. Well, since he had been weaned, he'd been in a pasture with only one other horse who was much smaller than him and extremely passive and he'd gotten used to being king of his world, calling all the shots. I moved him to be in pasture with a group of 4 geldings, including one who was consistently top dog. Within 24 hours of moving his pasture, he was a different horse to work with. This had nothing to do with pain or physical cause--he now understand that things were not always his way. He went from the most reluctant to move forward horse I've seen to a perfectly normal one.

Chisamba, you also bring up better ways to solve pain. Recently RP had a gassiness problem. He'd get gassy and not want to move forward and get really fussy until he was able to fart it out. So, in this case there was a clear physical link to his behavior. But, my trainer felt strongly that I should continue to ride him through this. His point was that yes, RP is definitely uncomfortable and yes, I should do everything I can to get to the root of the problem and alleviate the discomfort, but also RP needs to learn that just because there is some discomfort does not mean he can have a meltdown, he has to meet me halfway.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby demi » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:53 pm

Reading the latest discussions on horses kicking at the whip, reminded me that Rocky kicked at my outside leg a couple of times when learning to canter under saddle. Maybe she didn’t like the feel, or maybe she didn’t like me trying to control he hind quarters from swinging out. She was only 3. She is smart, she is sensitive, and she’s opinionated. I doubt she was in pain. She gave up the kicking in one canter lesson, but a few weeks later, she kicked sharply at my leg again while we were already cantering. She had started to slow down and I used my outside leg to speed her back up. My guess is that she was telling me “I’m already cantering, on the lead you asked for, NOW DONT ASK ME AGAIN!”

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby exvet » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:15 pm

Coming from 30 years of 'practicing' with 10 years in shelter medicine (private practice now) I agree wholeheartedly and that what you imply is true regarding dogs, horses, all species. The majority of animals in shelters now are there for reasons of behavior and much of that is lack of proper socialization and training. The kill pen represents the same as well as the physically infirm.

Many years ago a colleague of mine who I worked with used to literally force me to draw straws to see who would have to see the rooms with the boisterous (unruly) children in tow. It typically was true that unruly children and ill-mannered dogs went hand in hand, ie, the same parents. The lack of effective 'training' skills is often pervasive. Imo a huge part of training is based on effective communication.

To the first point: The greatest gift we can give to our children is to be well socialized and possess excellent communication skills including listening. The greatest gift we can give to our pets, including horses, is to learn their language and how they understand (read our body language constantly) and then to communicate with them effectively so that they too are well socialized and develop/possess some sort of skill (ride or other redeemable quality including companionship).

I seem to have several clients this year that are first time owners of dogs or cats or even a pet. I have had what seems like an increased number of 'emergency' type visits where the animal comes in no longer demonstrating the concern/symptom that brought them to me. The comments from the client are similar, "He really was doing x,y, or z; but, he's not now. He seemed to be in such distress. This is my first 'x' so I don't know what's normal." My first response to them is always the same. I believe you observed whatever symptoms. Adrenaline can often over ride many symptoms or perhaps time resolved the issue for now. Even if this is your first 'x', you see your pet every day and know him best. What you saw was abnormal for him. Whether or not it's a matter of serious medical consequence is for us to determine. If I have a relatively strong opinion of the problem based on their observation and know it can be treated, I'll offer them some suggestions of what we can do/try based on my suspicions. If I haven't a clue or cannot find anything wrong with the pet and it's obviously stable I ask them to use their smart phone (since the majority of clients have one) to video the incident and come back in preferably with the pet. I also give them my email address to send the video to me if they prefer.

So the second point
is that I think most of us, regardless of 'expertise' of that species, at least in our gut know when and if something isn't 'normal' or 'typical' in behavior for our pet, be it horse or other. I am one who strongly feels that behavior issues often have a medical basis which includes anxiety. I think training and conditioning goes a long way to address many anxieties (mental pain, fear, anguish) that manifest themselves in a variety of behaviors. Mental health is all too often ignored in humans and pets alike. Proper training, socialization, conditioning etc provides a means for beings to develop acceptable coping mechanisms, reasonable expectations and understanding of consequences (yes, I do believe animals can associate consequences with certain actions) that helps prevent the manifestation of unwanted behaviors.

I think effective communication which as we all know includes observation (body language is so important for other species) and listening skills that involve all the senses is something that requires constant work for us all. Perfection of this one 'skill' would make so many things better and easier and I am so far away from perfection in this area but I keep trying.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby blob » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:27 pm

exvet wrote:
I believe you observed whatever symptoms. Adrenaline can often over ride many symptoms or perhaps time resolved the issue for now. Even if this is your first 'x', you see your pet every day and know him best. What you saw was abnormal for him. Whether or not it's a matter of serious medical consequence is for us to determine.


This is a wonderful response to give an anxious pet owner. And I think it also highlights an important issue that your post raises. All animals, just like all people, have different 'norms'. My current cat loves to be wrapped up and hugged--she'll come and paw at my arm until i open up so she can get swaddled up and hugged like a teddy bear--she even sleeps this way. My pervious cats would have been seriously cross with me if I hugged them constantly. But I know with this cat that if she does not want a hug she is not feeling fully herself.

The best thing we can do as animal people is pay attention and understand what is normal and pay attention to when that changes with an attempt to understand why.

The barn hand who is by far my favorite at my current barn does not have a lot of pervious horse experience. But she's extremely observant. She's come to know what is normal for my horses and raises the concern if she notices something different. She doesn't know if that is something that is necessarily problematic, but I appreciate that she has noticed a difference. Recently she pointed out that MM's appeared to be peeing less than normal. So, I kept an eye on her water intake and behavior. Everything else seemed normal, no big deal. But something as small as this might have brought something far more serious to my attention.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:42 pm

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby khall » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:47 pm

I agree chisamba. I would go even a bit further in that as a horse trainer (we all train our horses every time we handle/ride them even if we don't do it for money) we need to set the horse up for success. For me there is a definite thought process in my development of my horses. It is not only riding related, it is also correct foot care, vet care (teeth are so important) their turnout and daily care, feed etc all for me is involved in the development of my horses. I've handled, trained and ridden a wide variety of horses from the first born foals of my own and others to half broke broodmares and some nasty stallions (I professionally handled breeding stock including handling stallions during breeding at a breeding/vet farm where we had up to 9 stallions on the farm at one point) and in my career and handling my own horses I have found firm but fair to be the best way in dealing with horses (dogs and kids too!) and being consistent. Often the training issues don't show up at the most convienient times (with kids and dogs too!!) but it is our responsibility to take those opportunities in order to help the learning process in all the beings we are responsible for. Take the time it takes. Don't shy away from the issues, be willing to dig in and work on them.

For example when Juliet first came here she had very little exposure to unusual things like horses and trailers showing up or leading her from the off side or heaven forbid trotting in hand. Now all of my horses from early on are handled/lead from either side and I often see how good they react when I lead them in and about during our daily life here even to the point of trotting with 2 horses in hand just because. Her owner was not well versed in doing this remedial work so as I handled her on a daily basis I kept picking away at it, showing Juliet how to behave when put in different situations. No you don't go busting by me when we trot in hand, that sort of stuff. It takes time and diligence to be able to show these large creatures that they can get with the program. But I feel is a very necessary part of the relationship.

Funny that exvet talks about shelter dogs:) I've been involved in rescue now (taking a break now though since dealing with 2 parents with dementia) for many years. I was known as a foster that put manners and training on the dogs that came to me, from the youngest of puppies (biggest litter I cared for was 9 hound mixes, fun puppies!) to the traumatized or absolutely no manners ones. Some of the best work to do with these dogs is impulse control work. Sitting and waiting for their food, the down position for "off", place etc. There are of course variations with individual dogs, some are easier, some are more difficult. But firm and fair and consistency gets you to a better dog.

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My last foster dog that came to me an out of control maniac, nick name wild man Koda. I did not let him off the long line even in my fenced in turn out for the dogs for months. (he also had to undergo HW treatment) he ended up being the best dog with an incredibly stable temperament. Great with any person big or small, great with dogs and as you see learned to be good with cats. Also with exposure to the horses and training accepted them as well. He taught me so much about working with dogs and having to establish a relationship, he was very tuned out initially. If I did not have horses I would be working with dogs professionally I enjoy the training process so much.

Interesting thread chisamba, thanks for starting it!

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:40 pm

i am loving the thoughtful responses on this thread, thank you

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:21 pm

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:48 pm

Symptoms...
You add a word, it changes the meaning

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby khall » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:44 pm

I wanted to touch back on this behavior thread again after some contemplation. Exvet wrote about mental health or anxiety and the animals we deal with. Some thoughts on this particular point, it is something I deal with a good bit with Rip.

Mark taught that get to the mind through the body, as in when the horse is in better balance and carriage they are less likely to be anxious. When we went to audit Frederique Pignon he said the same thing, this from a liberty expert. So they both used ver similar basic yields to encourage the horse to be in better physical place leading to better mentally.

Rip though can still be mentally tough. Mark called him monkey minded, I call him busy minded. Always thinking and not in a good way! Some days we go out and he is just there and with me, others ugh he tends to be very aware of his surroundings and or pushing back on what I ask him. He has come a LONG way, but dang I still fill like he is not always the most trustworthy of horses.

Anyone dealt with a horse like this? Any thoughts or recommendations?

One thing I am wanting to play with in riding and working Rip will be some WE to add in some obstacles (he's always liked obstacles) to hopefully help develop his confidence more.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:08 am

How old is Rip now, Khall? Has he improved with age and experience? I've found that the problem with horses like that is it's so darned exhausting to take them places to give them a wider degree of stimulus and experience that it's tempting to not do it, but if you gut it out and go do things, it helps develop that partnership that leads to a more harmonious life. (And I need to take my own advice.)

An interesting topic, Chisamba. Your "day job" and your horse life are interestingly juxtaposed.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:11 pm

i find true anxiety to be the most difficult thing for horses to work though, i have had three amongst my pack, over the course of my life time Deneb , you mostly know about, Rose, and one gelding, i had til that time thought it was mostly a mare hormone thing. one of the most recommended things for anxiety behavior in humans is exercise, which you are obviously giving Rip.

I have tried EMDR when things are going very haywire with Deneb and it does seem to have a positive effect but is hard to do from the saddle. I had thought of putting a flag on the end of my dressage whip to see if i could use it that way. SO EMDR is when you move your eyes ( either following a finger or looking at an object) while experiencing anxiety. so the idea when riding or training is to give the horse something to look at and move it so her eyes follow. because horses are monocular, i do one side then the other.

just a thought

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:24 pm

Interesting reflections. I was struck again recently by a fairly new boarder's choice of horse (as in not the best fit). There are a lot of TBs off the track out there--why this one, I was thinking, who seemed extra reactive, suspicious of humans and highly confident in his own judgement (the boarder got him online---from looks alone). Most of the re-sale TBs who go through our farm are nothing like that--they are highly cooperative, social and ready to work with humans. It's funny that the very confident, more aggressive, more dominant horses are also often quite good looking to us humans!

khall, the way you describe Rip over the years reminds me of these rather self confident, dominant type horses. They feel like more work, IMO, because they are!! lol I'm sure he is very good looking, too!

My sensitive scaredy-pants mare is a totally different kettle of fish. Much nicer for me to work with, but a bad match for some others (like anxious or loud people).

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby khall » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:52 pm

Mountaineer Rip is 13, I bred and raised him and except for the first 30 days have been his main rider and trainer. Only Mark would ride him some during clinics and Cedar has ridden him once.

He is definitely better but it is because I have more tools i.e. he has more training on him to help with riding him. Lateral work is my friend. If he is having a challenging kind of day we do tons of lateral work. SI to C has been wonderful to use on those challenging ride kind of days.

piedmont yeah he is a good looking hunk of a horse! Big horse Rip and baby Rip as a yearling after an sport horse in hand show.

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Rip has many sides that don't always follow a pattern. He is a dominant horse, tries to be with people (have been nipping that in the bud since he was a foal but he still will test you) and is dominant in the pasture but not nasty to people or horses. But he is a big chicken in every day life. For example he was out in the field with his 2 buddies (one we lost in 2017 and Joplin) and a branch had blown into the field. Much consternation, blowing and run away! from Rip. Total ignore from his buddy Dodger and Joplin went over and picked it up. Sometimes I wonder if his eye sight is not so good. He is wary of "things" and can fixate on stuff when trying to work him, like the neighbors at the tree farm driving around. The same tree farm he sees and ignores from his pasture every day.

As for taking him off, I have been since he was a yearling usually several times a year. He actually travels, hauls and settles into new places very well if I did not have to ride him:( He does not get attached to his stable or trailer mates, is happy as long as he has he food. But asking him to go to work can be tricky. I know the first day he has to be lunged, he will be extremely exuberant with his leaps and woo wees. Hard to contain his excitement. He struggles to go to work but the more days he is away and the more I can ride him the better he gets. So that is the away stuff.

Here at home he can be a challenge. Has definitely gotten better with training, but still he wants to have his say and not just comply if that makes any sense. The pressure of work can illicit some unsavory behaviors. Working in hand as a young horse I practically needed body armor, he was mouthy wanting to bite the reins and line (still will some but nothing like he used to) he would leap and buck when asked for energy (still can but not quite like he used to) just very challenging and exhausting. I have to be very grounded and calm to work him. After Mark died and I was struggling with that loss Rip could sense my issues and challenged me for a month until I started getting sorted out and grounded again. He is just not easy and it all stems from his challenging mentality. And it does not come from not having pasture mates that kept him in line as a foal. He's always been out with others until he became an adult that put him in his place. Now of course he is dominant but really rather benevolent in his dominance.

i had commented in Portugal watching them work the Lusitanos there how much pressure those horses can take and shine with. keep their cool. Applying pressure to Rip has to be done judicially. I've had the bruises to prove how careful I have to be when asking more during work! It's knowing how far to press and still be safe both US and on line/in hand. So that is the mental anxiety I deal with. Nothing like Deneb, but still challenging. Chisamba I had one like Deneb. I called her a super prey animal. She never got right about being ridden.

I am hoping that doing more stuff US like the WE will make our partnership better. So that he has more confidence in what I ask him to do. We will see.

I would love to do some liberty work with him but he is just not safe to do so, has been known to jump out of fences.

i will look into EMDR, never heard of it. Not sure if what Rip does applies? Maybe when he fixates on outside stimuli? I do have a whip with a flag and a whip with the soft ball on the end. Both I believe would work.

I would be glad to answer any other questions. I hope I clarified some what I experience with the big guy. I tell him all the time it is silly that the youngest out here Joplin is the easiest by far to work with!! She just comes out and goes to work for the most part, Rip not so much.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:50 pm

khall wrote: i had commented in Portugal watching them work the Lusitanos there how much pressure those horses can take and shine with. keep their cool. Applying pressure to Rip has to be done judicially. I've had the bruises to prove how careful I have to be when asking more during work! It's knowing how far to press and still be safe both US and on line/in hand. So that is the mental anxiety I deal with.


That difference is interesting. I also think it's interesting that you describe it as mental anxiety. To me, some horses are simply less interested and willing to submit to human direction---and when they are pressed to do so (beyond wherever their current limit is), they explode a bit or a lot to get away.

My mare is anxious/worried about a lot of things (like loud people, new horses, CHANGE IN THE ARENA :lol: )---but adding work pressure to her does not make her anxious at all---it is actually relaxing/clarifying for her (puts her in the safe training bubble). So I might start some rides with anxiety/spooking behavior, but by the middle of the ride that is all gone and she is all work, even though my demands on her have increased quite a bit from the beginning.

This is why our (different) horses are our teachers, too!

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Flight » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:05 pm

I just did a clinic with Anna Blake, she talks about 'calming signals' in horses. It was really good. Reading behaviour signs in horses and how they are with people. We spent the first afternoon just going into the horses yards and catching them, all were so different! Sorry, this is a bit off track but just timely with the topic of behaviour.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Tanga » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:12 pm

khall wrote:
Rip has many sides that don't always follow a pattern. He is a dominant horse, tries to be with people (have been nipping that in the bud since he was a foal but he still will test you) and is dominant in the pasture but not nasty to people or horses. But he is a big chicken in every day life. For example he was out in the field with his 2 buddies (one we lost in 2017 and Joplin) and a branch had blown into the field. Much consternation, blowing and run away! from Rip. Total ignore from his buddy Dodger and Joplin went over and picked it up. Sometimes I wonder if his eye sight is not so good. He is wary of "things" and can fixate on stuff when trying to work him, like the neighbors at the tree farm driving around. The same tree farm he sees and ignores from his pasture every day.


This sounds similar to my younger mare. She's the one that will stick her head in something because it's new, and when "spooking" at something when she was younger, she would go towards it. Gunshots, turkeys, pigs, bouncy houses (really) are not an issue. The EXACT SAME WHITE POST IN THE ARENA THAT HAS BEEN THERE FOREVER? Spook! Again and again and again. She is the dominate horse mostly, and she will grab a tarp from outside of the arena, pull it in, and step all over it.

I did have the vet check her eyes. They are not right. She says there is supposed to be a clear line between the upper and lower half of the the eye, and hers is all muddled. It could have been anything. And from having had and ridden (at FEI) a blind horse, I know it's very difficult to tell what they can actually see. And I don't feel sorry for horses that don't see well.

I just know now what she will spook at, and after lots of trial and error and getting hurt, I do not tighten up on the reins and try to stop her. I just make her work. If she spins, we do pirouettes or small circles until she relaxes. If she's in the stopping and putting her head up mode, I ask for piaffe.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:10 am

I had a blind horse and one with a spor on the eye hindering her vision. Both were upper level horses.

They seem to accommodate very well

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:27 pm

Flight wrote:I just did a clinic with Anna Blake, she talks about 'calming signals' in horses. It was really good. Reading behaviour signs in horses and how they are with people. We spent the first afternoon just going into the horses yards and catching them, all were so different! Sorry, this is a bit off track but just timely with the topic of behaviour.


really interesting.....I really am curious about this work...what are the calming signals? is this something the horse does or something we provide to the horse

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby blob » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:29 pm

Ryeissa wrote:
Flight wrote:I just did a clinic with Anna Blake, she talks about 'calming signals' in horses. It was really good. Reading behaviour signs in horses and how they are with people. We spent the first afternoon just going into the horses yards and catching them, all were so different! Sorry, this is a bit off track but just timely with the topic of behaviour.


really interesting.....I really am curious about this work...what are the calming signals? is this something the horse does or something we provide to the horse


I would also love to hear more about this

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby DJR » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:44 pm

Calming signals are good to know about. Anna Blake has her own website which outlines them:
https://annablake.com/2014/04/18/calming-signals-are-you-listening/

There are other websites on it, too.
formerly known as "Deanna" on UDBB -- and prior to that, as "DJD".

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby khall » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:41 pm

Mark was huge on breath. Humans tend to hold their breath when we concentrate that can create tension in the horse. Mark was also a practitioner and proponent of tai chi for this reason. Very good grounding and breathing exercise. Horses were drawn to Mark (we called him Mark the magnet!) because of how grounded he was and the energy he projected. Watching Frederique Pignon in his liberty sessions reminded me very much of Mark, the love of the horse just shines through with both of them and horses respond to that.

I read the article by Anna Blake and have known who she is though have not followed much of what she has done. I will do so from now on.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Flight » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:55 pm

Calming signals are what dogs do too, really worth reading about and then watching your own horse and dogs. They are signs they give us to calm us down. To slow down and wait for them to be ok with what we are doing. Learning the signs that they are releasing anxiety etc. She spoke a lot about breathing too.
I also liked her because she loves dressage, a lot of participants and clinicians I go to ('classical' dressage etc) really don't like competition dressage and I'm the odd one out, so it was good to hear someone supporting and promoting good riding for the sake of the horse in competitions.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby heddylamar » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:46 am

Anna Blake's article touches on several of the signals I look for with my mares.

Anzia (the dam) can be a giant ball of anxiety. I use yoga breathing techniques and, against my better judgement, a soft giving hand when she wants to explode. If I tighten my hands or seat, she ratchets up her tension and definitely explodes. By deliberately making my body go lax, most of the time I can coax her into believing she's safe and the whole horse relaxes. When we were competing and training, I had her on a low-protein, low-sugar, and high fat diet on the advice of several nutritionists.

Her daughter, Maia, is a bit anxious too, but nowhere near as sensitive and over-reactive. Walking a few steps or yoga breathing normally snaps Maia out of particularly anxious moments. And she's reliable about telling me if she's paying attention and/or needs me to do something different -- licking my arm, chewing, head butts if I brush too hard, flat ears, etc.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:54 am

The article simply puts an acceptable label on a behavior to govern the human response to it.

It actually does nothing to help define or understand the behavior.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:19 pm

What strikes me on the horse signals topic is that some horses are quite tolerant of humans who ignore horse signals requesting a pressure relief. Others are not at all!

My mare tends to freak out when people are oblivious to her signals and just keep adding human pressure (whether through voice/body/movement/etc.). I've had many "horse people" over the years who are very loud in gesture/tone with horses conclude that "my mare is crazy" when they are near her. They do not see that their behavior is pushing her over the edge and making her want to escape. My mare has become a bit more tolerant since I've had her, especially if I am nearby, but it is still surprising to me how many experienced horse people are complete idiots about why she reacts the way she does.

Even the vet I used when I did an off-site PPE before buying her said "Don't buy this horse--she is crazy!" :lol: :?

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby blob » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:42 pm

When I was starting horses, I almost always did join up with them. I found it helpful, not just in establishing a relationship, but also because it's very telling how a horse responds to it and can determine future decisions. Some horses have very subtle submission cues, others do everything at once--nose on the ground, licking and chewing, ears turned in, etc. And interestingly more obvious cue does not correlate with how easy it is to get them to submit.

MM had become so good at it that I was sure she had simply become trained to join up through all our early ground work. But, if I new person tries it with her, they still have to go through the whole process. With me, her nose is on the ground in seconds.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Chisamba » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:05 pm

blob wrote:When I was starting horses, I almost always did join up with them. I found it helpful, not just in establishing a relationship, but also because it's very telling how a horse responds to it and can determine future decisions. Some horses have very subtle submission cues, others do everything at once--nose on the ground, licking and chewing, ears turned in, etc. And interestingly more obvious cue does not correlate with how easy it is to get them to submit.

MM had become so good at it that I was sure she had simply become trained to join up through all our early ground work. But, if I new person tries it with her, they still have to go through the whole process. With me, her nose is on the ground in seconds.


yes, but even though their body language may be similar, their behavior is different, every horse is different, that is why I do not like articles, essays or anything that assumes a behavior is species wide.

I am agreeing with you, just in case i am not being clear, i am referencing your comment in juxtaposition of the article. behavior is true of an individual, not a species

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby Flight » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:19 pm

The article is more of an introduction to the calming signals. When we did the clinic, the horses absolutely did different things but the collection of things were generally signs of anxiety relating to the vicinity of the person and what they were doing.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:39 pm

That makes sense, Flight. I do think the differences between horses is really striking! I mean, I 'know' that is true, but then there is seeing it in a more systematic, group way. Very interesting stuff.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby khall » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:06 am

I ordered this book : https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/11380 ... UTF8&psc=1 for my further education. I do know Rip does displaced behaviors. Will see if anything in the book applies to Rip and hope to become more aware. Would be good to look at dogs as well.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby heddylamar » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:12 am

khall wrote:I ordered this book : https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/11380 ... UTF8&psc=1 for my further education. I do know Rip does displaced behaviors. Will see if anything in the book applies to Rip and hope to become more aware. Would be good to look at dogs as well.


I'd love to hear your thoughts once you read the book.

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Re: "Behavior "

Postby khall » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:17 am

I will report back.


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