Denny Emerson on Jump training

A forum for discussion of training in dressage
Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chancellor » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:28 pm

This is a quote from his Facebook page:
Something that I have found to be true, year in, year out----

Riders who jump, which would include jumper riders, hunter riders, event riders, spend thousands of dollars a year on horse board, hundreds of dollars a year on lessons, thousands of dollars a year on tack and equipment, hundreds, perhaps thousands on entry fees---Lots and lots of dollars.

These riders talk about riding and jumping, They read about riding and jumping. They are to one degree or another obsessed with riding and jumping----

Where am I going with this?

So, if a trainer randomly asked most of these riders who spend so much time, money, passion every year to do some simple, basic task, like go into the ring and set some trotting poles, followed, say, by a gymnastic bounce, many of them---I won't say most, although I actually suspect it would be most---would not know the correct spacing of the poles, or the jumps, and, if by chance they did, would not be able to accurately walk the distances to place the poles correctly.

Now, if this does not apply to you, great---You are not to whom it is addressed.

But if you are not able to do this, does it even occur to you to ask why not?

How is it possible that you are so poorly educated that you can't do something so fundamental and basic?

Seriously---Aren't you appalled at this degree of ignorance? Because you should be----


What do you all think? Do YOU know the distances between dressage letters?

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby blob » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:44 pm

I think knowing the distance between dressage letters is much easier and not a totally fair comparison. We all know the dimensions of a dressage ring and therefor know the spacing of letters. Can I "walk it off" accurately? No. But I know the measurements i need. And I can eyeball a 20 and 10 meter circle fairly well.

I grew up at a barn that dressage and jumping. In our jumping class we were expected to set up and break down jumps before and after class. We had to walk off our distances for gymnastic lines without using any kind of measuring device, which means we were responsible for knowing how many of our own steps = the desired distance. I'm grateful for that experience and am glad that I can very quickly walk off trot or canter poles now.

Ponichiwa
500 post plus club
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:51 pm

Spatial reasoning is a skill that takes time to develop. Nobody's born knowing what a 12' or 14' stride looks like until they've paced it off (a lot). Nobody's born with the intrinsic knowledge of what a 10, 15, 18, or 20m circle is to ride until they've ridden tons of them. I can lay down a 20m circle anywhere now, but it took me years to get to the point where I didn't actively use arena markers.

I get where Denny's coming from (I picture it as a front porch with a "Get off my lawn!" vibe), but it never hurts to be empathetic. Also, anyone who's laid out a dressage arena can tell you that the measurements on the long and short sides only get you so far. What really crisps it all up is making sure your diagonals are the right length!

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chancellor » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:16 pm

I think the point is more that riders today are not really getting the training to walk lines etc. I watch my niece ride and she has no idea how long strides are or anything like that.
My old jumping coach had us doing "lines" and you had to count the last three strides before the pole on the ground. It helped to educate the eye.
I don't see any of that watching my niece ride.

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Flight » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:45 pm

I think the theory is lacking. I can only speak about how I learned and how it is commonly done in Australia of course, but I think maybe a lot of that theory and study is overlooked thesedays??

Yep I know the distances in a dressage arena (because I've set many out for clubs/comps - so painful) but how many strides is it for your horse between letters or a 10m circle or an extended canter diagonal etc. And is it important?

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chancellor » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:45 pm

Flight wrote:I think the theory is lacking. I can only speak about how I learned and how it is commonly done in Australia of course, but I think maybe a lot of that theory and study is overlooked thesedays??

Yep I know the distances in a dressage arena (because I've set many out for clubs/comps - so painful) but how many strides is it for your horse between letters or a 10m circle or an extended canter diagonal etc. And is it important?


Having ridden with Karl Mikolka for many years, yes. Strides are important.
Try this exercise. On a 20 meter circle, count your strides on the quarters of the circle. they should be the same, right? It's WAY harder than it sounds....but damn, once you get it, the circles are perfectly round and beautiful.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby exvet » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:17 pm

Chancellor wrote:
Flight wrote:I think the theory is lacking. I can only speak about how I learned and how it is commonly done in Australia of course, but I think maybe a lot of that theory and study is overlooked thesedays??

Yep I know the distances in a dressage arena (because I've set many out for clubs/comps - so painful) but how many strides is it for your horse between letters or a 10m circle or an extended canter diagonal etc. And is it important?


Having ridden with Karl Mikolka for many years, yes. Strides are important.
Try this exercise. On a 20 meter circle, count your strides on the quarters of the circle. they should be the same, right? It's WAY harder than it sounds....but damn, once you get it, the circles are perfectly round and beautiful.


It is important! And I've not done that exercise, Chancellor, in quite some time but it will definitely be helpful in my goal to get Junior more engaged, Thank you!

As to the importance, you haven't ridden a pony in dressage in a while or at least at the upper levels? Because to score well especially at the upper levels it helps to know the strides so that you can place your movements in a way that demonstrates the pony's ability to perform mediums and extended gaits. I also don't know how to do the tempi's without counting strides but the best placement of the tempis especially on a pony requires that you count going in and coming out so that you're centering those tempis. You can eek out a higher score even if your changes are clean and your count is right IF you do all 5 of your changes evenly placed along the diagonal, not all squished in the beginning or the end. Of course I started out riding in hunter/jumpers so walking courses, counting strides, etc was drilled into me as a kid.

User avatar
Flight
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:39 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Flight » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:00 pm

Yes, I agree it's important, but I haven't had many instructors actually teach it.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chisamba » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:47 am

I feel like we had the 24 trot strides on a 20 m circle, six for each quarter. If I remember correctly it evolved into an uproar about different size horses having different stride length and the whole point of why a dressage arena is 20 m wide is because almost all horses and ponies ( excluding miniature)are capable of 24 strides on a 20m circle. 63.8m circumference therefore approx 2.6m / stride

Unfortunately the math does not work quite well for a canter stride but I do put 4 cavaletti on a 20m circle. At 12, 3, 6 and 9 o clock, and both trot and canter the quarters. Often have to out cones up too to help with drift and shape

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby blob » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:40 am

I also think there is a big difference between counting strides and being able to count off/measure off distance for a gymnastics line/pole work.

I'm pretty sure everyone is doing/being taught to do the former.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby exvet » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:10 pm

Actually when you ride ponies in hunter it's imperative you be able to count strides between fences, know and BE ABLE to put the exact count of strides between the fences and find/make that perfect 'spot' for take off otherwise you are not in the ribbons. In jumpers you're measuring off distances in a wee bit different way but you still have to know what your horses striding is, take off distances that it can get in and out of safely as well as turning radius...................Now that is how it used to be taught but having been a pony jock back in the day even way back then there were those of us who were taught how to do this, would ride and 'put it on' the ponies and then hand the reins over to a 'special tot' who would then go in and just ride to hang on and collect the ribbon at the end.

blob
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby blob » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:58 pm

I don't think we're disagreeing, Exvet. I think my point is that I think riders are still being taught to count strides and find distances when riding.

But I think the Facebook post is about measuring lines on the ground to set up gymnastic lines.

Both valuable skills, but not the same. And I agree that fewer people are taught the latter. I think all decent riders are taught the former.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby exvet » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:23 pm

I guess I'm being obtuse or just stupid. I have taken it for granted that if you learn to walk the distances (so that you're measuring them by your stride/foot) and to count a horse's stride, one is also inadvertently learning how to measure lines and should in theory be able to set up gymnastic lines. I never picked up a book (like I have long ago with dressage) to learn or understand the theory. I would watch my instructors set up these exact exercises for me to work through something and then I would go home and set up the same in my arena (this was when I was a kid). Maybe I was lucky to have unintentionally learned and put to work the see one, do one, teach one approach that to this day I can still set up gymnastic lines and I haven't competed in that venue in decades.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chisamba » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:45 pm

So exvet would you know what distance to put a ground pole to increase bascule, or teach the horse to rock back? how about how to adjust the distance in a gymnastic to teach a horse to not chip in?

would you set up a trot in gymnastic the same as a canter in, or walk in gymnastic?

what stride do you need to put a double so that both a pony and a horse can jump it safely?

for example

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby exvet » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:32 pm

Chisamba wrote:So exvet would you know what distance to put a ground pole to increase bascule, or teach the horse to rock back? how about how to adjust the distance in a gymnastic to teach a horse to not chip in?

would you set up a trot in gymnastic the same as a canter in, or walk in gymnastic?

what stride do you need to put a double so that both a pony and a horse can jump it safely?

for example


Yes and it's dependent on the horse or pony's striding - placing poles in front and on the other side of the fence or specific distance in the front which would include knowing how to ride the horse right up to the spot...........and no I would not set it up the same for all three gaits if I'm understanding your question correctly.

What stride? do I need to put a double? Well I would put about 8 of my paces in between them which hits right in the middle of the 8-10 foot sweet spot. I would then visualize this and depending on the horse or the pony would know the stride as well as the take off spots.

Just like cavallettis I would set them up using the basic guidelines for distances, ride them/it and then re-adjust if need be.

Are we done with the 'you show me yours and now I'll show you mind'? Hunters and jumpers was something I did as a kid for many miles in the saddle. It's not rocket science. I use to help set up courses and braid and ride the ponies and whatever I was told to do while slave labor in order to get my horse up down the east coast for showing.

Chancellor
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chancellor » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:24 pm

exvet wrote:I guess I'm being obtuse or just stupid. I have taken it for granted that if you learn to walk the distances (so that you're measuring them by your stride/foot) and to count a horse's stride, one is also inadvertently learning how to measure lines and should in theory be able to set up gymnastic lines. I never picked up a book (like I have long ago with dressage) to learn or understand the theory. I would watch my instructors set up these exact exercises for me to work through something and then I would go home and set up the same in my arena (this was when I was a kid). Maybe I was lucky to have unintentionally learned and put to work the see one, do one, teach one approach that to this day I can still set up gymnastic lines and I haven't competed in that venue in decades.


In looking at my niece who is learning to jump, she has had NONE of this training.
I agree with you. If you learn to walk distances, you should be able to set up poles and jumps and bounces etc. However, where I am disagreeing with you, is that I don't know how much this is actively being taught.

If hunter riders show up and just get on the horse, and hand the horse off to the groom at the end of the ride, when do they learn this?
Read a little on COTH on the hunter jumper forum how very much they are dependent on their coaches.

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby exvet » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:54 pm

Oh I'm not surprised at all. I walked away from that world for many reasons and some of it had to do with the direction of where it was going. I don't doubt that there are those who are actively taught this but at some point I don't know how you wouldn't absorb some of it if you're paying any attention at all. Still I know when I use to catch ride while in vet school (over 30 years ago) I was appalled at the number of riders, many juniors, who were coming off their horses during a course. There are many basics that have been lost but it's not just the hunter/jumper world.

User avatar
Chisamba
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 4452
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby Chisamba » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:09 am

I used to do courses for shows, and a judge told me my distance was wrong in a double and made me change it.

After one class I went back to her and asked if now that she saw how many riders and horses she tried to kill if she was ready to put the combination back to my distance. And she was....

My point being even so called professionals often have no idea about distances.

My guess, exvet, is that you have a talent of spacial awareness and probably a talent for observation.

And.... I remember after one if those cross country courses designed by Mark Phillips actually did kill someone, ( and he was hailed at the time as being a technically very proficient designer) that one of the distances was completely wrong because when they measured the footprints after the event, the landing footprints from the first element was considerably further from the base than "text book" making the distance to the second element dangerous.

(It was when I was doing my refresher in course design) . The lesson learned by that particular incident was if you walk your course after an event, tape measure in hand, you learn even more from the hoofprints about how distances can ride very differently than the designer considered.

I do not do it anymore, but course design and distances are totally fascinating and honestly, people like Mark Phillips and Ingrid Klimke. Who measure side to side and diagonal to diagonal with technical dogmatism can be way off compared to people who more intuitively stride distances center to center, and allow the terrain or footing to adjust their personal stride length in a similar way to a horse traveling the same terrain.

Even in an groomed level arena distances may ride differently than they measure. Sometimes it's a visual line, terrain, lighting and grandstands can create a false horizon, sometimes it's the way your tractor driver wets and grooms the footing, a simple inch of difference in depth and texture ( is it sand. Is it sand and clay. Is there stone dust ) will make a difference in how a distance rides. I made an awful distance in a course once because I used the same design in two different arenas. It rode so perfectly in one arena I decided to use it again, and it just did not work in the other arena despite being built identically.

It's truly fascinating

exvet
Bringing Life to the DDBB
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:28 pm
Location: Scottsdale

Re: Denny Emerson on Jump training

Postby exvet » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:06 pm

Chisamba wrote:
(It was when I was doing my refresher in course design) . The lesson learned by that particular incident was if you walk your course after an event, tape measure in hand, you learn even more from the hoofprints about how distances can ride very differently than the designer considered.

I do not do it anymore, but course design and distances are totally fascinating and honestly, people like Mark Phillips and Ingrid Klimke. Who measure side to side and diagonal to diagonal with technical dogmatism can be way off compared to people who more intuitively stride distances center to center, and allow the terrain or footing to adjust their personal stride length in a similar way to a horse traveling the same terrain.

Even in an groomed level arena distances may ride differently than they measure. Sometimes it's a visual line, terrain, lighting and grandstands can create a false horizon, sometimes it's the way your tractor driver wets and grooms the footing, a simple inch of difference in depth and texture ( is it sand. Is it sand and clay. Is there stone dust ) will make a difference in how a distance rides. I made an awful distance in a course once because I used the same design in two different arenas. It rode so perfectly in one arena I decided to use it again, and it just did not work in the other arena despite being built identically.

It's truly fascinating


Agreed and am aware of the incident(s) you're referring to as well as the fact that most really good course designers have the course ridden a few times prior to the actual regulation event starting for this reason. I think there is no substitute for walking the course though I will admit to not walking courses at many hunter shows simply because I felt after watching multiple rounds I had a pretty good idea of the footfalls. Having been a jump judge for <more than> a few cross country events also gives you many learning opportunities for which I'm grateful.

As an aside you're probably dead on regarding one of the few things that comes to me naturally. I use to hold a pilot's license in addition to the experience I've had in fences.


Return to “Dressage Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 62 guests