Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

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piedmontfields
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Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby piedmontfields » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:46 pm

Since some of us have a bit more time off horse than usual, I thought I'd start a reflection thread.

Given what you know now about the horse(s) you are currently training, what have you realized is especially important for their physical/training development? (you could also answer: "What would you do differently, given what you know now?")

I will start off by sharing that given what I know now, I would not have taught Emi to stop dropping behind contact by riding her above the bit so much. I would have worked her rounder/deeper in a less desirable frame just to teach her about connection. It would have taken a lot of transitions and time to build strength, but I think upon reflection a lot less overall time than what I did! I had never really dealt with training the "behind the bit" horse before, so it was certainly a case of learning through experience.

I would also have a much better understanding of just how hard it is to bend a short-backed horse. They might feel "wiggly" and flexible, but this is evasion---not bend. Now I'm quite sympathetic to how hard Emi works to bend properly and how to set her up for gradual success.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Flight » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:10 am

piedmontfields wrote:I will start off by sharing that given what I know now, I would not have taught Emi to stop dropping behind contact by riding her above the bit so much. I would have worked her rounder/deeper in a less desirable frame just to teach her about connection.


This is really interesting, as my big horse always goes a bit BTV and in the earlier days people would say to me "oh he's just big and young and when he gets stronger it will fix itself". But it never did, and now I have to directly fix it.
I've had advice for both ways - above the bit legerete style, and deep and round. I've opted for middle ground and always striving to keep him out to the contact. His topline isn't developing like I hoped it would, but I should have recognised and addressed this problem right when I started him under saddle.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby blob » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:23 pm

I've written about it before, but a challenge I'll always have with MM is keeping her lower back engaged. She naturally carries her neck round, but doesn't always come through the back. She has a tendency in the trot to move her hind legs quicker, but not have them reach under. Though I've found with her that working on her canter (her better, more natural gait), really improves the trot work.

One thing that I wish I could go back and change is that when I adopted MM, I did not plan to keep her. I wanted the project of gentling a mustang and then intended to find a suitable home, esp since I had no idea what kind of horse I was getting. So, I spent a lot of time making her a good citizen. Some of that I'm glad for--it's great having a horse that stays on command untied, who is comfortable with every part of her body being handled in every way, etc. But I wish I'd done less desensitizing on her. Part is her personality, but part is that I got her used to EVERYTHING. And taught her to carry on doing her job no matter what. Well, now I have a horse that is so bomb proof and unconcerned that she constantly finds a new normal. It's made it harder for me to keep her hot on the aids now when I want it. And I wouldn't mind a bit more pep/excitement at shows. She is the same the same the same no matter what.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby piedmontfields » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:40 pm

Flight wrote: This is really interesting, as my big horse always goes a bit BTV and in the earlier days people would say to me "oh he's just big and young and when he gets stronger it will fix itself". But it never did, and now I have to directly fix it.


Very interesting! I heard more push early on for me to go for rounded/too deep but connected---but I resisted it for quite some time. I think I saw it as short-sighted and too more about the neck. A middle ground seems like a good approach. I was also trying to take to heart the adage "do the opposite of what the horse suggests." In general, my above the bit approach helped the canter a lot more than the trot...I still think the horse who tends to be BTV is a tricky one for training (at least for me).

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Chisamba » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:10 pm

I spent most of my youth riding horses that were behind the vertical, very easily and who were too light in the contact. People may disagree with me, buy most of the Arabians I rode tended to curl down very easily. So when i switched to other breeds, weight in the reins seemed so draining. HAHAHA. Kimba loves to lean into the bit. I thought okay, that is just her nature, its okay, but it turns out, i should have taken notice of when she got heavier, and immediately taken the notion of rebalancing her lighter, because she offends herself with her weight, she leans in and then changes something in her way of going to the detriment. So, lighter it is. In my world, before, it was always about encouraging the weight. No i realize it is always the balance.

also, Kimba anticipates, actually most horses i ride anticipate, it is probably my fault, and i used to go to great lengths to try and trick them into not anticipating. Now i realize i need to just do it again and again and teach them to anticipate the correct thing. be ready, know whats coming, that is all okay, but wait for the aid, that takes precedent.

but every horse teaches me something . I must be a slow learner, because it seems like it takes a life time to learn to ride well, lol

I do like do the opposite, as an general rule, but i find it a good general rule, transitions between, riding up, ride out, ride level, ride down, ride slow ride forward, for example if I am asking Kimba to be long in the neck, i want her to stay long in the neck through several transitions, i should be able to shoulder in, and stay long in the neck, and if i would like her to go in the short rein, i should be able to do all my gaits and transitions and laterals in the shorter rein. this is how i manage to connect what is behind me into what i have in front of me. some times i ride the horse in a very natural stance, poll high nose out keeping the contact through all the transitions. Its quite a lot more difficult than it sounds

anyway, this is all because i enjoy it. If i am working toward competition, i practice the competition requirements.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby StraightForward » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:12 am

Thank you for starting this thread. Each of these posts is really interesting!

In a way I feel like I'm starting anew with Annabelle right now. I rode Susan's Kyra for about 4 months last summer, and she is a more light and above the bridle type. I'm trying to transfer some of the lessons I learned, improvements in my seat and position, to a different type of horse with less schooling under her girth.

When I got A at 4, she was very green and didn't know a thing about contact, being started western in a low curb (eyeroll). So I focused on just getting the contact with her, and then we had to work on straightness, and sort out a bunch of asymmetry issues including high/low front feet and a likely SI injury. She was just doing a solid TL test when she got injured at 5 and a half.

Now with all of this info in mind, and lots of time to think about it, I'm putting her between my aids more. I suspect that at times she will go BTV now that I am asking her to work in a smaller box, and sometimes the contact is quite strong compared to what I was comfortable with two years ago. I think I'm better able to differentiate between "strong" and "heavy" now, and I'm OK with strong, but take action when it changes to heavy. When I was riding Kyra, even as light as she tends to be, there was a period where I was riding on pretty strong contact (this was following coaching). It was kind of scary because I didn't want to ruin Susan's lovely, light horse, but it was just a phase she had to go through to get to the other side where she was straighter and more honest to the bit. I think Annabelle has to go through this too, but it might be longer and more pronounced because she is sort of long backed and likes to run her front legs away from her hind legs.

TLDR, it's not always puffy clouds and lightness, and that's OK.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Kyra's Mom » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:58 am

I feel like I am finally starting to understand Kyra (yeah--she'll be 18 next month :!: ) and being able to really recruit her basic good nature and have her really happy in her work. I have had so many physical issues in the last few years that I haven't been able to ride much but have tried to keep up with ground work and in-hand work. I don't know for sure, but my competition days are probably behind me and I am training what I enjoy and gives Kyra positive value to her musculature and brain. Yeah, I might throw in a bunch of "natural horsemanship" and liberty stuff now and then but like I say, at this point I feel lucky to #1--still have the horse and #2--be able to get on the horse :lol: . My goals are pretty simple but based in dressage principles. I think dressage (general--training) does so much for them.

In Kyra's younger years, tension was a real issue. Some (most, I believe) was a pain issue but some is her nature being 1/2 Andalusian. She is reactive and it takes nothing to go from positive reactivity to negative reactivity. And since there was so much tension involved in our rides, I bought into the drama and reacted in kind...not a good thing at all. I have learned and cultivated my patience and (most times) try not to buy into the drama. Finally having achieved good relaxation, I feel she has made good progress.

Don't worry SF...Ms Kyra can get heavy too. She did it tonight. It kind of surprised me as she hasn't gotten heavy like that for years. Focusing on a horse that was 1/4 mile away, she thought maybe if she laid on the reins, I might let her have her way and gawk at said horse. No ma'am. Yes, I feel that definitely you do go through that period and that strong is different from heavy. In Kyra's early days, before I found out the bit issue, that little ballerina could pull like a freight train. I couldn't believe she could get that heavy.
I am thankful, I found the issue and although it has taken me a long time, I think we have come out the other side.

Physically, she isn't the strongest horse. Her neck isn't set on in the most pleasing fashion but she has 3 correct gaits including a trot I can sit (when my sitter allows) and when she is relaxed, she really wants to please. What more could you want?

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby exvet » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:25 pm

Well as y'all know Junior is a home-bred; so having backed and trained both of his parents (plus his sire was a product of my breeding program) I have pretty good insight and preparation for his idiosyncrasies. I delivered him and was the first one he laid eyes on, bellowing the entire time I was pulling him out. I'd say from ground zero we've had a pretty strong bond. Like his parents he's super smart which is a godsend and a curse at the same time. He's got an ornery streak and is very full of himself (thank goodness I gelded him when I did) but at the same time that boldness has helped a lot. He's not afraid of much which makes him pleasant to take places. I have been acutely aware that whatever I teach him he cannot and will not unlearn so I've tried to be very forward thinking in my approach to each step of his training process. I also know that like his parents, especially his dam, that I have to make sure that I don't fall back into my 'overdrive' tendencies. I know that it contributes directly to his tension and tight back. The greater challenge with him is that he is such a cool cucumber that I fail to realize that I'm doing it. With both his sire and dam, I was much quicker to realize what was happening because they were both a bit more dramatic (in a safe way) about their tension building. One thing I've found that has helped tons is to count the beat of each gait. By counting the walk I am able to instill in Junior a better clarity of gait. By focusing on the timing of my posting and/or counting the trot beat out loud I am able to slow his tempo at the trot, increasing the time of suspension. The canter is his easiest gait but by counting out loud the three beats when asking for the medium really has helped prevent rushing/running off. I think he listens to my voice and actually understands.......or is just listening to my seat. Either way I have learned that I must spell a lot of things out because he's definitely like a border collie in brains and personality LOL.......he figures things out quickly and the more I start with building blocks of very concrete material and build from there, the stronger and more solidified the foundation (and ingrained so I better be right in how I do it).

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby heddylamar » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:47 pm

One thing I've learned with Maia is that if she's bored, she just goes through the motions. She's responsive, and will do as I ask, but it's lack luster. If I find ways to excite her — like the lengthening to collected + square corner exercise, or even a walk down the road when everyone is out doing yard work, etc for her to gawk at — then she's on fire.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby piedmontfields » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:16 pm

exvet wrote: One thing I've found that has helped tons is to count the beat of each gait.


This is a great reminder. I find it hugely helpful for the walk (where we can be very tense), but it helps in all gaits.

I have always described my mare to others as a bit of a Jekyll/Hyde situation. She can seem calm and even lethargic, but once she is relaxed and warmed up, she turns into a sensitive energizer bunny. Hence, I use almost no leg at the beginning our our rides and tons of leg in the second half!

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby blob » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:56 pm

heddylamar wrote:One thing I've learned with Maia is that if she's bored, she just goes through the motions. She's responsive, and will do as I ask, but it's lack luster. If I find ways to excite her — like the lengthening to collected + square corner exercise, or even a walk down the road when everyone is out doing yard work, etc for her to gawk at — then she's on fire.


This is so, so true for MM also. I need to remind myself that any time she gets lack-luster or dull on the aids she probably needs to learn something new/do something different for a bit. It can be a bit of a challenge, as I'm constantly having to find new ways to achieve our goals.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby demi » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

I just watched some really nice quarter horse reiners on youtube so I could study their canters. I have to keep in mind that Rocky’s dam is a good quality quarter horse and Rocky inherited many of her characteristics. She has a very good quarter horse canter. She never missed a lead from the first time she was started as a 3yr old. She is confident that she KNOWS how to canter and when left to her own devices, she canters easily, handily, and happily. But not dressagey.

As far as the trot, she has a good QH trot, but additionally, she has an expressive Arabian trot. I think the QH trot is dominant and that’s why when I first started trying dressage with her, I almost gave up. I felt that getting the trot, and basically, the type of self-carriage, I wanted, was more than I was capable of getting. I had even decided to just trail ride her and not try dressage anymore. Then, a couple of years later, I found the right trainer and now Rocky does her “dressage” trot nicely and we both enjoy it.

So, what I am thinking, is that if I want to keep her happy, I can’t force the issue of dressage canter. Currently, she can canter nicely, with the same posture as for her nice trot, but only on the full arena or 20M circles. If I push to make the canter circles smaller, she gets frustrated and then won’t even do a 20M circle, and sometimes refuses to canter at all.

When canter issues reared up (figuratively haha) during my last lessons before the whole world changed, my trainer had me pushing through the resistance. We had just shortened her reins and added cantering on 15 and 10 M circles the same day! Now, at home, working on my own, I am keeping the short rein but have decided (just last night) that I’m not even going to push through to canter on smaller circles. I’ll keep the canter to the full arena. I’ll video. I’ll think and feel. And then in a few weeks I’ll reassess.

For the time being, I will focus on the harmony we can get in the short rein canter on full arena. I so enjoy that harmony and she gets really proud of herself when she knows that I am enjoying her work. That may sound like anthropomorphic thinking to some, but be that as it may, her Arabian showiness comes out and at the same time she gets very cooperative. That’s just fine with me!

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:14 pm

I'm big on praising my mare's good efforts, too. I'll say "Wow, that was really pretty. What a good mare you are!" or "Look at what you can do!" when she does a bigger half pass cross or extends her frame nicely. She seems to get it and it makes her snort and eager for the next thing. I've also known horses who really loved praise plus a standing break with sugar after they did something really well.

FWIW, the gradual process of making Emi's canter straighter has also made it better (better balance, connection and power). Probably riding the large arena in a lot of shoulder-fore, nearly shoulder-in and nearly renvers changed her canter more than 10 m circles (although small circles are a very good balance check). I also use a lot of wavy lines in cantering large, kind of like a "rick rack" pattern if that makes sense. It's an easy way for me to supple and straighten in canter work.

Those nice event horses I described with the good canters are often not ridden so straight----so everything starts to fall apart if patterns arise or more collection is needed (ex. counter canter). It's not the horse so much as how they are ridden/trained. Not everyone is obsessed with straightness like folks into dressage are!

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby blob » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:25 pm

piedmontfields wrote: I've also known horses who really loved praise plus a standing break with sugar after they did something really well.


You have to be careful with the standing treat break--I know someone who's horse got into the habit of snaking his head around for a treat anytime she halted. It was cute and funny, but less so when she wanted/needed to ride a dressage test and halt salute involved the horse reaching around and waiting for his treat! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Kelo » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:08 pm

demi wrote:I just watched some really nice quarter horse reiners on youtube so I could study their canters. I have to keep in mind that Rocky’s dam is a good quality quarter horse and Rocky inherited many of her characteristics.


Demi, if you don't mind me asking, do you know her pedigree? I'm a QH person, is why I ask.

If your horse is a QHxArab cross, well, don't underestimate the wonderful heart both parents surely passed along, that'll take you a long way.


My horse (a QH) is prepping for Grand Prix, and I've done all his training for 17 years. We've done dressage for, oh, about 10 years? Woven in to everything else we're doing (if I had to pick one, I'd tell you I am a reined cow horse rider).

Anyway, the biggest training challenge we've had is....me. I've never done dressage, I find it bewildering on many levels, even after all these years.

My horse has an 8 walk, and probably a 6ish trot and canter. He is obviously a decent athlete, is hot but sensible, is incredibly intelligent, but he has heart and willingness in spades, and that's what makes this work.

The lower levels were relatively easy, because it was no different than what I did for reining, just in different clothes. But as I climbed....well. Suffice to say I've headed down quite a few paths, found out they were wrong, had to backtrack and then find the correct path.

Like, I've never ridden a 1 tempi before. Never ridden a piaffe. No idea, NO IDEA, how they're supposed to feel, or really how they're supposed to be trained. So I just kinda wing it, ask him, we both try, maybe we get it, maybe we run off. My instructors have done their best to help me.

Contact, throughness and the level of energy needed (so much energy!) have probably been the biggest boogers for me to learn. I'm still trying to master them, to be honest. Suffice to say, we mostly back into all this stuff, but I can feel when it's right, and know that we ARE getting it.

Most recently we've been working on improving his trot (and subsequently his piaffe/passage), and oh boy, that moment when he's going BOOM down the rail, and he's truly uphill and steady, and he willingly moves into the passage, still uphill and strong....oh boy. Boy that's fun. THAT is how it's supposed to feel. And that moment is why I continue doing this. :mrgreen:

Anyway....to sum it up.....I give him a lot of cookies.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby demi » Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:36 am

Kelo, I really enjoyed your post! I always read your posts and love what you do with your horses, especially your GP horse. He looked great in the latest picture of halfpass.

Your post was especially timely and encouraging as after today’s ride I had a strong feeling that I should just go back to trail riding my mare. In your post where you talk about the great feeling when he’s truly uphill, steady and willingly moves into passage...wow. That’s so encouraging.

Rocky is out of a Colonel Freckles/Doc Bar mare. Rocky’s breeder broke her dam for someone else but he liked her so much that he bought her. He said that she is one of the best horses he’s ever had. He used her extensively for five years working cattle in the hill country and that she was the most instinctive cow horse he ever rode. He won ranch rodeo buckles in sorting, penning and calf roping on her. He describes her as courageous, smart, fast and beautiful! He also said that Rocky was more like her than any of her babies.

I am glad you give your boy lots of cookies. He deserves it. I give Rocky lots of cookies, too! And thanks for your encouraging post.

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Kelo » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:13 pm

demi wrote:Rocky is out of a Colonel Freckles/Doc Bar mare.


Fabulous! Those lines are one of my favorite combinations of athletic but smart, and cow horses are my favorite for dressage horses. Don't get discouraged! The road can be long and twisty, but it's about the journey, right?

I am friends with the folks that had Colonel Freckles, he is one of those tough, honest cow horses. My horse is a grandson of Freckles Playboy. Freckles Playboy and Colonel Freckles are both by Jewels Leo Bars (known in the business as "Freckles" hence their names) and out of a Rey Jay mare, so they have similar bloodlines!

My new filly, she's 4 this year, and the biggest challenge with her will be not saddling her with the burden of expecting her to be like my Cowpony. She is a super nice little horse, but the Cowpony is a once-in-a-lifetime horse. It sounds silly, but it's a real struggle for me when I ride her. She's the first horse I've started since him, and...she's just not him.

I do not work her hard, it's short rides where I try to enforce the basics (relaxed topline, be straight between the reins, go forward willingly...and don't buck :lol: ), but she's smart and so I ask her for stuff to keep her mind busy. Like she's willingly and happily giving me baby lateral work, she's started in her lead changes, but it's not infrequent that I get off her and I'm upset because she's not him. My friends roll their eyes at me, but it's an honest feeling and I'm not sure how to overcome it!

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby heddylamar » Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:30 pm

Kelo wrote:... but it's not infrequent that I get off her and I'm upset because she's not him. My friends roll their eyes at me, but it's an honest feeling and I'm not sure how to overcome it!


It helps to take things as they happen and experiment with techniques v. going in with a preconceived notion. As in "which exercise [try 20 different directions to reach the same goal] will work for filly" v. "this worked for Cowpony [then repeating single failed direction until you become frustrated]."

And since that is clear as mud ... I've taught quite a few horses to pick up their leads, but Maia was a particularly frustrating challenge. Then I remembered to throw the kitchen sink at the problem: sharp turn over ground pole into canter, small jump into canter, shoulder in into canter, etc. All the while keeping my aids consistent, and using the voice command she knows from ground work. Finally she started to consistently understand and step into the correct lead. Thank god. Because, unlike nearly every other horse I've worked with, the method that worked yesterday, completely failed today :roll: :evil:

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Sue B » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:07 pm

Kelo, by the time you've trained a horse to that level, no baby can compare! I go through that every time I get a new youngster or greenie. When I had Lad and Scotty to work, Rudy was always last in line and when Lad died suddenly and Scotty was retired, Rudy was relegated to pasture pet for like 2 months while I dealt with Lad's death. If you don't know, Rudy is my heart horse and has been pretty much since the day I saw him, but he was also a halter broke 6 year old recently cut gelding when I purchased him. He has always been the most eager to please, smartest and kindest little guy, but he's also a handful at times, considered himself a stallion for years etc, etc. Now Rudy is 15 and it's Tio that often gets the short end of the stick even though Tio is amazing in his own way (and mind, lol) It just takes time--don't beat yourself up over it.

Demi/Kelo, my favorite QH lines are Lad Leo and Doc Bar best minds evah

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby Kelo » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:52 pm

Thanks guys.

Yeah it's super unfair to my filly to compare her. She's a good girl and deserves to stand on her own. But I trained the Cowpony up, and he is more or less the only horse I've ridden for 15 years, so it's hard for me to adjust. The amateur problems that don't get talked about I guess :lol:

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby khall » Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:12 pm

It's funny but I can take from several of the above posters and apply it to Rip especially.

Flight addressing the too deep directly, yep wished I had done this more consistently earlier. That has made the biggest difference in Rip being able to understand how to come up out of the base of his neck and sit better. Funny enough his full sister Gaila finds it easier to come up and out of the base of her neck. I'm sure it is neck conformation for Rip why he struggles, set a bit low and Gaila is not.

Chisamba doing the opposite, so agree. with the high headed horses I've ridden I tend to keep them lower, with the ones who want to stay down I want to stay more up more of the time.

Exvet yep bred and have done all of the training on Rip, bought his dam as a weanling did all her training and rode his dam's sire. Rip is different than his dam though. She is much lighter of feet than he is. Know Rip well, definitely has a challenging attitude (one person said he is like a pony:) but he is not brave, bit of a chicken actually. Could be explosive when pushed, finding though he is developing more tolerance to the push to the line thank goodness! He can wave some feet around has caught me before objecting to my requests. My mares just do not do that crap.

Kelo I don't know much about the QH breeding (except that I tend to like ranch bred QH, especially blue roans!) but have always admired your guy and your training, very inspiring.

I like having different types of horses to ride and work with. Makes me a better handler/trainer. My preference is the sensitive but sensible type which Joplin seems to be. Thankfully Rip has become much more sensitive than he used to be, you can train one to be more sensitive to your aids.

Like chisamba said this is a learning process, one that means as riders we are always learning each time we work with the horses. Keeps us occupied!

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Re: Understanding the horse(s) you have, and their associated training challenges

Postby mari » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:44 pm

The horse I have is a very laid back guy. One of the things I've learnt (and after 10 years of owning him, I've only recently learnt this :roll: ) is that the ground rules need to be set in the first 10 minutes, every ride, every time. He is a joy, because he is very mellow and ridable, but if I half-ass it the first 10 minutes, then I need to be prepared for hard work the full ride.

So I had train myself not to make too many allowances for the first 10 minutes. Forward means forward NOW. Half-halt means sit your butt down NOW, and sharply sideways for lateral aids. And if you can stick that out, you are tuned in and can have a brilliant ride. But being an amateur, doing all the riding myself, this took me a very long time to get right. I had a lot of half-assed 50 minute lessons...
The aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory, but progress. ~ Joseph Joubert


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