All about piaffe

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khall
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All about piaffe

Postby khall » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:27 pm

So it sounds like several of us are in piaffe working mode. Curious the approaches you use on teaching piaffe. I've been at it for several years now with Rip and it has been slow going. Piaffe is not his favorite movement. I do finally feel like he is getting stronger and more flexible behind, then I do work with Gaila his full sister and damn she just finds it fairly easy, at least the half steps so far. Rip is ok with the half steps but when you ask for more on the spot piaffe he gets over threshold a bit. He is definitely better (he drug Cedar across the arena a couple of times when she was working with him)

I do half steps down the slope, big moving TOF then trot (Rip finds this very difficult), asking for hind legs to flex off the whip, SI in hand straighten trot and half steps, full pass type movement, RB to half steps, Flex hind leg in walk, counted walk work, single and double line driving work, Then traditional in hand on the fence line ask for piaffe in hand Our biggest issue is energy, he can get resentful of the whip asking for more energy. It's a fine line I walk.

I've worked with several different horses to learn piaffe and I have found Rip to be the most challenging. He's big, he's powerful and he can be difficult to motivate and keep him from acting out. I pushed too hard one day and got a hoof to the hip.

Anyone else have any insights? videos to share? I don't have pivo but do have a tripod so will attempt again to get some video

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Flight
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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:38 am

Well, I've only trained 3 horses. The first one I had no idea, but trained inhand first and probably taught more of the croup hopping than proper lowering and lifting in front. The second I had more help with from an instructor - started inhand then under saddle. Both these are friesian crosses and quite straight behind and tend to push down through their sternum cart horse style.

Norsey has been different. Done mostly under saddle - he's so big that I skipped a lot of inhand work, and he was way more explosive when he felt too constrained or that he didn't understand. He also likes to compress his gullet and neck and get stuck.

With help of an instructor (clinics when I can, so 2 or 3 times a year) we've been building his. Start at halt and getting the posture correct. Then asking a hind leg to step, then the other, and so on. This is with my leg to go, but little (very gentle) rein corrections to say we're not moving off place. He used to really get crooked and get kinks in his body, so it took a bit of time to keep him straight. Then when he starts to have the legs moving (without cracking the shits) asking for more energy and then he starts to get the trot piaffe rhythm.
It's taking a lot longer with him too, and I am only asking for a couple of steps at a times but we are getting there.
My soloshot has just started playing up again so I might not have recent video, but I think I have some of his first attempts saved on youtube somewhere.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Tanga » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:25 pm

All three of mine piaffe, and I've got a lot of the barn playing with it. :) I've done a lot of what you do, but Rip sounds like my younger one--she is big, muscular, and stays at a slow, steady tempo no matter what you do, which you think would be a good thing. It's not. She is also like Rip in that she has a big, long barrel, but it's hard to get bend.

In the saddle she will collect, but if you try to add quickness with the whip so it's more supportive, she will kick her hind legs way up in the air. Whip to her means go BIG, not quicker. I'm working on it. What helped click a little with her was doing it in hand and holding her head (she can't kick up) up while I asked with the whip, and as soon as she quickened, lots of treats and "good." Once I get her listening to "good," she's pretty willing. But I am still constantly trying to get her to react quicker by trying to tap the whip in new places. If I just do voice, she does the super slow stuff, which is impossible to maintain. She's got the idea under saddle and will do something, but it's still not much. I'm still trying to find ways of getting across "quicker" to her, not bigger, so she has better balance in everything.

The older one is now p/p queen. Once I started to get video I discovered I was doing it the hard way and going WAY too forward in the passage. Doing the passage a lot closer to piaffe is so much easier and allows her to get a bit quicker to maintain the balance, and it looks better.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby tlkidding » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:24 pm

Clicker training helped me with the beginning. I started the piaffe with the clicker and my horse up against the wall and picking up one hind after another with a tap, click, treat. Then I got the diagonal pairs to lift together, but I was never able to get it quick enough and moving without him blowing through.

Under saddle, a "buzzy" walk into the half steps really worked, then someone on the ground with a whip to help the hind legs get under. I still use the buzzy walk to half steps a lot in the warm up.

You could also try the school trot, or shi**y trot as one trainer called it. Wind the trot into the lowest gear you can without walking - the horse must maintain the small trot on his own. Then add the big half halt and leg aids for the piaffe.

I was the same as Tanga when I tried putting the p/p together. I was coming into the piaffe with way too much trot or passage and the first 2 steps of piaffe were always a tangle of legs and hops.

I readily admit that my piaffe is really not that great. We have always struggled with getting a good connection/throughness in the piaffe and are often too far in front of the vertical, if not totally disconnected. A few years ago, we were almost close enough to try showing it when we ended up with several injuries/recoveries and now knee arthritis that will prevent us from showing.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:05 pm

Also holding the whip above the wither and waving it a bit, rather than over the hind end, helps them lift up more and add energy.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:54 am

Flight that is one aid I have not tried, definitely might help Rip and maybe Juliet my friends TB/Perch we are just now exploring half steps with her. Rip actually really comes up out of the base of the neck very well when working piaffe stuff, not so much in passage (just starting this work) but might help him with the energy. Karen Rolf uses a really long whip with a tiny bit of plastic on the end. I have not tried that yet. Though I do have a flag I can use for energy.

TK I'm sorry about your older guy developing knee arthritis. I had one that I ended up euthanizing because she had such poor ROM in both knees from advanced djd. Didn't you buy a lovely young WB?

Geeze, just worked Gaila in hand a bit tonight. Had to wait until later because of the heat so did not have much time. Playing with the half steps and I think she is also going to find passage easy, she gave me a couple of passage steps when playing with half steps. God I love mares!

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby blob » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:33 am

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm here mostly to listen and learn. I've been wanting to do more inhand work with MM, building towards piaffe. We've had some very productive sessions with me in the saddle and my trainer on the ground. And she knows to lift each hind leg when the fetlock is tapped. But when I try to actually get to half steps in hand, she gets confused, thinks I'm lunging her and tries to come in front of me and around me. And I haven't been able to figure out how to keep her against the rail. It feels like a genuine communication error right now where she thinks I want something different and then gets frustrated when I get in her way.

I've done some in hand piaffe work before, but only on horses that knew how to do it already. So, I just haven't figured out how to troubleshoot this problem. In general MM and I have a good ground work relationship.

Clicker training might be a good thing for us to try

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:34 am

Blob can you do lateral work in hand with MM? Cedar with Gaila had me go from SI at trot in hand straighten and ask for half steps. Does not have to be against the fence. I have to be careful putting Rip against the fence, he gets anxious about it.

The other possibility would be to start half steps in a rotation. So kind of a big moving TOF and ask for trot in that movement. Anja Beran uses this and if you have ever read the German Handbook of Riding they also use this method and it is how I started my long gone Han/TB mare years ago before I moved to long lines while heavily pregnant to perfect the piaffe. That mare had an awesome piaffe.

In Portugal they had us use several different methods, one was with two handlers, one on lunge line over the back to outside of the caveson, SRs on and handler at the head with short rein to keep the horse straight. Lunge line handler is who initiates the piaffe with lunge whip. The other was in hand against the wall no SRs like I normally do. Of course those Lusitanos are very very good at piaffe and can take the pressure of the work easier than Rip can.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Chisamba » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:54 am

so, I probably don't qualify to join this thread as I only had 2 horses truly piaffe and am only working on half steps with Kimba and Saiph. i think when it's time piaffe will really benefit Caliburn butvI probably need Marius and Covid stopped that

So with Sunstorm, I would get lovely activity behind but he would kind of get stuck in front so he's get would get closer and closer together until we looked like a goat on the top of a mountain.

Kea had a lovely piaffe, she took to it very well and really elevated in front but I had the fantastic assist with timing etc from Andreas Hausberger when he was still allowed to travel and clinic in the USA. I sat still, pushed my heels down and he touched her legs with superb timing. my profile pic catches that moment.

right now I use half steps to teach my girls not to root the reins and not to push through the half half. so it's a matter of asking them to stay in the trot but to wait . I ask to wait with equal contact in both reins followed by a tiny bit of slack. yes yes I know many people harass me for slack reins.

In Kimba, she tends to lighten and elevate in front but i would like more step under behind. I feel as though Saiph is more through when she gets it. photos for demo. lots to critique these represent a work in progress

in the absence of clinicians, my pictures are working tools, not artful expression of perfection, lol
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Kimba, half steps
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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Dresseur » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:57 am

khall wrote:The other possibility would be to start half steps in a rotation. So kind of a big moving TOF and ask for trot in that movement. Anja Beran uses this and if you have ever read the German Handbook of Riding they also use this method and it is how I started my long gone Han/TB mare years ago before I moved to long lines while heavily pregnant to perfect the piaffe. That mare had an awesome piaffe.


Khall, this interests me greatly. I had posted in the July/Aug thread about Miro's half-steps issues, and have had some "off-line" conversations with Chisamba about it as well. In a nutshell, Miro won't quicken and diagonalize - he terre a terre or does one tempis. In talking with Chisamba, I went back and re-looked at the rein back, which through the in hand work is now diagonalized, but, he takes huge steps. We've backed quickly, we've backed slowly, we've touched individual legs, we've done 1 step RB, 2 steps, 3 steps and forward... sometimes he will offer quick half steps and then just as quickly lock into terre a terre which makes rewarding him for the right moment difficult. It's almost easier under saddle, and we're getting some better steps there, but, it's not reproducible yet.

Andrea has had a few that "over-collect" to this degree and has seen the other side, but I think that this is an interesting training conundrum that I want to mull through - especially as I'm working through this all in hand with him.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Chisamba » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:03 pm

Cathy Morelli used to do a lot of turn on the forehand into piaffe. since you mentioned it.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby blob » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:07 pm

Khall, thanks for the suggestions--all of them are helpful.

I can do SI inhand with MM--so I might try using that. The TOF and the two handler methods are also interesting and could be good things to try. She likes learning new things, so I do think once she gets what I'm asking, she will take to it quickly. She handles pressure or collected work fairly well and does not usually get upset if she feels a bit confined, so hopefully that will also be to my advantage. When and if I get to teaching RP half-steps, he will be trickier since it is easy for him to get overwhelmed and feel trapped.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:00 pm

What the TOF does is diabolizes the horse and the handler can address the inside hind to quicken it if the inside leg lags behind a bit. They usually will have one leg that is slower to react and this is a good way to address this in hand.

The full pass work also diagnolizes the horse. Mark had me start this the year before he died with Rip. If the horse wants to bull through the bridle like Rip did, put their head to the wall first, then move them directly side ways. It teaches them to pick the legs up in a more up and down movement and diagnolizes the pairs similar to the moving TOF or stepping over. Bend initially away from movement and eventually can be towards the movement. Like Flight had said about her big guy Norsey, ask for the posture first up and out of the chest before initiating the movement side ways.

Rip used to have issues with his right hind. I do this movement at the walk (in fact I think I had recommended it to exvet earlier this year with Junior) to help mobilize the hips. Because of Rip's conformation and his genetics he just struggles with mobility of the joints. He is strong and powerful but not the most supple. So after Mark died and I started looking for other help I looked at Anja Beran she uses this stepping over is what AB calls it a lot. I have seen how much this exercise has helped Rip's right hind, now I need to ask again for trot in the movement and see if he is better. I've asked before but it was hard for him so had backed off. Rip is also showing me how much more flexion he has behind. Used to when I would ask for the hind leg (just targeting each hind leg to lift with the whip) he would barely flex them, now he flexes much deeper. Not as much as Joplin, bless her! She hits her belly with her hind legs:) So Rip may find it easier to trot in the rotation.

chisamba Saif looks really good in those half steps, she looks like she will take to piaffe easy. She's a lovely mare.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby tlkidding » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:00 pm

khall wrote:TK I'm sorry about your older guy developing knee arthritis. I had one that I ended up euthanizing because she had such poor ROM in both knees from advanced djd. Didn't you buy a lovely young WB?


Good memory! I have a now 3 year old Hann that I started under saddle. We've been on the struggle bus because he grows roots in pretty much any situation - distracted, confused, upset, unsure...I never realized how much of his own motor my older horse has, even though he can sneak behind the leg.

The piaffe actually really showed how he gets behind the leg and convinces me to nag in the collection; I found the half steps really useful in the warm up to check the reaction to my leg while making a connection to the hind legs. My older horse couldn't handle a lot of pressure with in-hand work - he'd blast through the handler and then start shutting down. I found that a little bit of help from a ground person with me in the saddle and then letting us play around for weeks in between worked well. I did have to ride the explosion a few times when I demanded more on the spot and he wanted to decline. Once he got the leaping out of his system, we could usually go back to half steps or piaffe that was way better than before the launch.

I'm going to try that waving the whip by the withers in the p/p and see what it does. We've injected my older horse's knee (and hocks), but he's not 100% sound. I'm still riding him because working helps with his overall anxiety and herd boundness as well as helping loosen up the stiff joints. He's actually looking the best he has in a few years with his weight, muscling, and coat, but I know it's a matter of time until full retirement.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby blob » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:21 pm

tlkidding wrote:
I'm going to try that waving the whip by the withers in the p/p and see what it does.


With MM, I often will ride with my whip flipped upside down in my hand so that instead of the whip coming down from the handle against my leg, it comes up and stands at a diagonal across my body and over horse's whither. The horse can then see the whip from their inside eye. When I want more oomph and power, particularly in the collected work, I find that doing this is really effective with MM. I can make a slight movement with my hand that kind of bounces the whip--it doesn't touch her, but she can see the movement of it and that's all I need for a reaction.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:40 pm

Here's some vid from yesterday with Norsey. Soloshot was happy to work. I'm ok to share this as long as people understand it is a massive work in progress! He has been a difficult horse the whole way, and piaffe isn't an exception. But I think he'll get there.
So the first one he was getting quite crooked and the second he'd had enough but he's starting to get the steps. Happy to answer any questions. It's there warts and all.

https://youtu.be/6lUxgPU1ljI

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Tanga » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:47 am

Nice job, Flight! I think wherever you are, you're doing a good job.

Watching this reminded me that I had to make sure I was SUPER clear on aides for p/p, because it turns into a mess in the GP test where you have to go from walk to passage (and passage to canter.) I always aide with my legs at the same time, bump bump, and pick up the reins and squeeze up up in rhythm, which is I think what yo are doing.

Do you ever go into the trot from it? I've got mine all thinking piaffe steps right from the start of work into trot to really keep them thinking up in the back.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:14 am

Tanga wrote:Do you ever go into the trot from it? I've got mine all thinking piaffe steps right from the start of work into trot to really keep them thinking up in the back.


No not yet! He would lose his sh$t I'm sure. Maybe someone who knows what they are doing could manage this earlier with him, but I'm taking it very slow.
My other horse I do a lot of piaffe steps to trot and canter to help close him up more and activate him.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Dresseur » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:45 am

Flight, imo there were some really nice steps in there, particularly towards the end of the vid. This is just a question, not a critique, why are you asking on the spot with him (out of halt) vs keeping it moving forward? Wasn't sure if there was something that you were feeling or observing that was driving that decision. Thanks for sharing!

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:59 am

Dresseur - he has only just got the diagonal steps happening, like literally in the last week or so. That's why there is only a couple and I reward what he can give.
It's really just they way I've been taught to teach piaffe. Not much forward. This guy has needed a lot of work in halt and the suggestion of piaffe due to his conformation and tendency to compress and then lose his shit.
The little black horse, he sometimes needs to move more fwd, but piaffe piri tends to help him not fall over his front legs.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Dresseur have you tried RB on bending lines like 10m circles or RB in SI, HI or renvere to help shorten the steps? The bending lines helped Rip do this. If you try the rotation to piaffe you will have to let us know how it when.

Flight those are really good clear steps on Norsey. That is amazing you can get that from the halt. I can see the tension in him and how you can't push him more. Rip shows tension even more when I ask like this at the almost standstill. In a more forward half steps even if I ask him to stay a bit more on the spot but still edging forward he does not have that tension. I'll try to get video but our weather these next couple of days will just be horridly hot and dangerous.

Thanks everyone for contributing! I'm really enjoying the conversation. Chisamba of course your sharing is valued! I love what you do with your horses, we can see the changes clearly and I'm jealous you have help with pictures and videos! That is so helpful I am sure.

If anyone has any ideas on passage I'm all ears. Rip looks like he will be challenging in this as well, thought about taking him out in my hay fields full of deep grass to encourage those steps.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby tlkidding » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:29 pm

khall wrote: If anyone has any ideas on passage I'm all ears. Rip looks like he will be challenging in this as well, thought about taking him out in my hay fields full of deep grass to encourage those steps.


Tall grass and water are both good. I did some very basic spanish walk clicker training to teach full articulation of the shoulder blades.

The first time I really felt the cadence and lift was during a ride when the horses in the pasture near the arena came running down the hill and along the fence. Normally when he would get bouncy and snorty with something like that, I'd just walk. This time I actually put my leg on and it was very close to a passage. After that, I was able to find it by doing 8 m voltes on the rail and asking for almost halt right before the rail and then adding leg, holding my core, and trying to "bounce" my seat.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Tanga » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:18 pm

tlkidding wrote:\

Tall grass and water are both good. I did some very basic spanish walk clicker training to teach full articulation of the shoulder blades.



Yes! Use what they give you! The energy of spooks, tall grass, or water. I wish I lived in an area with water we could ride through. That is the best training. But we have to do what we can do. I taught my first horse (an Appy) to piaffe on the trail when people took off in front of me--that will get most any horse to do it.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:22 am

TK we've got the SW down pretty good https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=334 ... 7935039590
No water around but lots and lots of grass. Probably too deep right now it is ready to cut. I do have a small section in one of their pastures that has some deeper grass, I had Joplin go through it when working caveletti so I can definitely use it for Rip too.

I'm feeling pretty good with the piaffe, need to try the halt to piaffe like Flight showed see how it goes US, we do it in hand and it can get tense. I've played with passage on a couple of my own horses and have ridden it on established horses and Rip is a challenge. My one OTTB had such incredible extensions that you could ask for medium trot on the circle half halt and get passage easily. Rip struggles with that scope but I am hoping to get some petite passage out of the smaller more engaged trot we have been working on. Playing with gears.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:57 am

Take it slow if they get tense. We've been at it a while, so Norsey knows what I want and still I ask and then wait a bit, then ask a bit more... I've found that the straightness and the posture has to be right in the halt and maintained in those first little steps otherwise he really gets upset.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Dresseur » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:41 pm

khall wrote:Dresseur have you tried RB on bending lines like 10m circles or RB in SI, HI or renvere to help shorten the steps? The bending lines helped Rip do this. If you try the rotation to piaffe you will have to let us know how it when.


RB we've done on bending lines, and it does start to shorten/quicken things up - right now, the RB is diagonalized, so I'm less concerned about that - other than the symptom of those big, long steps that don't really get quicker. The transitions overall feel good, they stay up in the shoulder, he doesn't come nearly as far under behind as he was, so stuff is tracking.

Right now, we've pulled passage all-together - more on that later. He is starting to have glimmers of understanding. I tried to add rotation to the steps, but he just terre a terre'd and basically did a canter pirouette - but that could have been operator error - his walk piris are actually quite snappy and quick right now, so I'm not going to abandon that experiment quite yet. I have found that vibrating the whip rather than touching in a rhythm helps, and we went to the left the other day and that actually worked fairly well.

For the passage, I've sat on a few now that were starting passage and was able to sit on them through various points of their progression, including Miro - who I've been doing most of the passage schooling with and who seems to be a bit of a freak of nature with it, so I can at least explain what I feel in starting this movement.

The biggest thing is that there are gears in the trot, that basically, you can trot very, very small, but keep the activity for a step or two. Once the horse has an understanding of coming back into this very, very small trot, you try to sustain that trot and the activity for a few more steps and a few more steps. Usually from the ground, this doesn't look like much of anything, but the rider should feel a smidge of increased hang time as the strength and understanding progresses. Once you start to feel glimmers of the hang time, the rider can then start to drive the trot up a bit to start lofting it into the air. There are different ways to do this, on Miro, we had to go from extension to small trot because he wanted to stay out behind rather than come up and under. So, we'd push the trot out, half halt into the passage, then push it back out - the tone of my body kept the extension feeling going. This method kept the hinds honest on Miro. Other horses you can do trot/halts, or get that quick short trot and then push it out for more loft. In all of it though, we keep the doux passage - no horse is allowed to do "big passage"

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:31 pm

Your post was very helpful dresseur on passage. Affirms the track I was heading down with Rip in gears in the trot. What I find interesting is that the more gears you work on the quality of everything improves in the trot. So I’m seeing more improvement in the medium trot because of asking for the lower gears.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Dresseur » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:24 am

Agreed! I felt that all the gaits really improved the better the passage got, and his back felt more and more knitted together, especially in the trot.


Update of piaffe work, we finally ditched side reins and went to more of a French method, which affords more freedom, And we tapped on the front of his cannon bones, and we had some nice steps of what was recognizable as piaffe. That’s the closest we’ve gotten out of all the methods so far, so we’ll see how far this gets us.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby blob » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:22 am

I have been working more on half steps since this thread has been started, rather than coming around to it every blue moon with MM. One thing that is interesting with her is that when I ask for half steps she is very eager to offer what is much closer to passage than to piaffe. She really wants to lift up through the shoulder and give me lots of hang time in front. And it feels like it would be very easy to encourage that into a baby passage. I've heard from others that it is very hard to teach a horse piaffe if they already know passage. But I don't know if this is true.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Dresseur » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:31 am

Blob, yes, conventionally, you would teach piaffe/half steps before passage because the danger is that they lock into those slower, less under behind steps. Piaffe should teach the quickness and the diagonal rhythm that you can then push out into passage. In rare cases like Miro’s, passage can come first because of the need to teach gears, or if the horse is really struggling with the diagonal pairs, because you can theoretically do more of a passage on the spot to bridge the gap. But, that seems to be reserved for horses who are in no danger of not coming under behind or being quick behind.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Dresseur » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:47 pm

Just updating here... Miro is definitely progressing at this point. I think I mentioned before that we finally tried the French method of in hand work, basically giving him ultimate freedom so he can't lean, brace or lock his body. Another week down and there are recognizable piaffe steps and he's starting to quicken the rhythm and sit, not just passage in place. I'm quite pleased with this. Also, for him, vibrating the whip and touching the front of his hind cannon bones, as well as clucking to him seems to work, so, we're sticking to it!

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:20 pm

Nice dresseur! I bet you will see much changes in him with the piaffe work.

There are so many ways to work the piaffe. It’s really about finding what works best for each horse. I’ve tried most of them! So far the long rein seems best for Rip that and US. He does not get upset US

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:29 pm

Thanks for starting this thread, khall, and thanks all for participating. I'm thinking about starting half-steps for real (instead of the trot/almost halt/trot work that we have been doing) with Queso in the next several weeks. I get the feeling he's the type of horse that needs to really sit before he can offer legitimate medium/extended trot work.

Anyways, nothing to add here aside from gratitude. Love all the ideas and exercises here.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby blob » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:23 pm

I was able to rope in a second ground person the other day with MM, which was very helpful. I let my friend decide whether she wanted front or back--she picked front. So, she stayed by MM's shoulder, keeping her against the rail--alternating between walking forward and halting. I took up the rear with the whip.

With some trial and error, we found that it was best for the person up front to lead her from a cavesson, but that side reins on the bit were helpful for now. We also found that I got a better reaction when tapping behind (towards the bottom of her hindquarters) than on the croup. The hardest part in hand is still that she just wants to go forward and doesn't quite understand the slow down, contain aspect and she just wants to take off trotting.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:30 pm

Well, I tried starting from the ground but I've got to confess: I'm terrible at managing long lines + whip + treats. Queso was all kitted out in a surcingle and sidereins because I thought that'd be the best way to approach it, but I haven't longed the guy in almost 2 years (he's not one that needs to get any yahoos out) and it turns out those skills degrade with time. And by "those skills" I mean "mine".

Anyway, roped my groundsperson into helping me introduce the half-steps with me in the saddle (so to speak... just hopped on bareback after ditching the surcingle), and Queso was a champ. He's starting to figure out how to fold up his hind joints but keep soft over the topline and I'm pleased as punch.

Thanks again, all, for the thoughts on piaffe.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:04 pm

Ok. Working with the big girl some on piaffe in hand. She’s one to want to get strong and tense. A bit bullish so different to deal with than Rip.

Right now I think we need to concentrate on asking quietly even just to flex her hind legs and for her to be able to keep the walk and trot short without coming up against the bridle

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:11 pm

Here's some of Ding's piaffe.

He doesn't really fold his hind legs and sit much. He is very straight behind so I"m not sure if this will develop more. However, I've just been working on him doing it by himself.. I hate seeing the rider kicking and moving around to get it. Also he tends to tip over his front legs a lot, and push down through his chest, so I've been working on keeping his front legs straighter (they are still a bit under him here, but it's a big improvement to what he used to do) in halt and piaffe.

https://youtu.be/rSZXF937aGk

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby blob » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:31 am

You and Ding look great, Flight. Even if he doesn't have a TON of sit, he is nice and active behind and his steps in front and behind look quite even!

Curious for those with more experience--what kind of tips do you have from going from a half steps to being more on the spot?

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:05 am

That’s nice Flight! Cedar to get the horse more vertical and not over their front legs in piaffe does piaffe rein back.

Blob I do two things
Use the outside rein in the half steps to ask for more on the spot
And I ask from the walk get it short and bouncy to piaffe. I’ve not tried it yet from the halt like flight does US. I do ask from halt in hand. Rip finds that very hard

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Flight » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:16 am

That's interesting Khall (piaffe rein back). I've always heard that piaffe should be forwards, not backwards. But I think I'll give this a go. Thanks!

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Tanga » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:15 am

That is NICE, Flight. I don't see the tipping over here. My younger one was doing that a lot, and what helped was in hand and holding her head up higher. She used to think she had to put her head way down, so that really got through to her, so when I asked in the saddle she kept her head, and thus front end up higher.


I would not do a piaffe rein back. I see that coming back to bite you in the butt badly.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:41 am

Tanga this is not Cedar but still shows piaffe in RB

I’ve seen the Valenca’s do it as well

https://youtu.be/PdBkHEqatzA
Last edited by khall on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Ponichiwa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:12 pm

You can use RB to clarify the piaffe posture-- horses seem to connect the dots a bit better with RB, halt, piaffe steps, halt, RB = piaffe has to really sit-- but it comes at the risk of the piaffe taking actual backwards steps. Hugely penalized if you show. If you don't show, piaffe/backwards piaffe is a pretty neat party trick. If you do show, proceed with extreme caution.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby StraightForward » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:17 pm

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good in-hand whip? I just have a driving whip that is too floppy to use precisely on the legs. We have a few pieces of bamboo sitting around too, but they aren't quite right either.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:46 pm

Ponichiwa I don’t think of it as a party trick at all. When I was talking about this with Cedar who btw does show and is successful at GP uses RB piaffe for a particular horse that wanted to triangulate in the piaffe. So she used the exercise to address a certain issue. I really appreciate that about Cedar. All the tools she has to address each horse’s issues.

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Kelo » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:26 pm

I used the piaffe - halt - reinback -(halt) - piaffe exercise to help the Cowpony to understand the sit, and it worked well for him.

I am thinking the halt part is quite important so he doesn't get to thinking about going jumping backwards, it was a full stop and relax, not just a hesitation, before asking for a good back, so it made sense to him.

The exercise helped him a lot to understand the concept of the sit. I added the second halt if he was tense, or if he was relaxed and understanding just went straight into piaffe from the backup.

We quit doing it when he got it figured out (although I will pull it back out if necessary).

That horse in the video, though, wow, what a talent. :shock:

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 pm

Kelo that is what Cedar was doing. RB in piaffe.

She’s JP Giacomini’s full time assistant trainer has been with him over 10 years she’s been showing GP these last couple of years

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby Ponichiwa » Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:22 pm

khall wrote:Ponichiwa I don’t think of it as a party trick at all. When I was talking about this with Cedar who btw does show and is successful at GP uses RB piaffe for a particular horse that wanted to triangulate in the piaffe. So she used the exercise to address a certain issue. I really appreciate that about Cedar. All the tools she has to address each horse’s issues.


I can see how my previous post came off as flippant. Not what I intended, but that's on me.

More clarity: I think going backwards in piaffe, as shown in that video, is extremely difficult to do well. And that linking piaffe to RB can be helpful (as I've said above, esp with posture) but also risky if you don't have very good feel and timing. Backwards steps in piaffe are penalized in the scoring fairly harshly (below 5). So if you're new to piaffe, recommend the clear halts as described by Kelo or putting the RB on hold.

FEI scoring definitions (piaffe comments start p7 and backwards remarks of < 5 on p8).
https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Gui ... ements.pdf

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:08 pm

I agree kelo. I just think it’s interesting all the ways to approach piaffe as an exercise. I know how much the work has strengthened Rip

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Re: All about piaffe

Postby khall » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am

Well I tried the halt to piaffe. Even just a slow walk to piaffe US. It really cranked Rip up. I got a bit of the stepping more in place then I was just getting Spanish walk sigh


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