All about piaffe

[blob]

I've gone back to basics when it comes to working on piaffe in hand with MM. And re-thought strategy a bit since she was wanting to run in-front and around me--which is understandable since she seemed to think i was trying to lunge her on a ridiculously tiny circle. But I know she does well with voice commands--on the lunge she not only knows walk, trot, canter, and whoa, she also knows 'small' and 'go big' for transitions within gaits. So, I went back to leg lifts and introduced a new voice command 'up' for hind leg lift and hold. I've also found that the better physical cue for this in hand piaffe work is actually a tap on the belly, rather than on the croup or on the hind legs. She's now starting to figure out that if i say 'up' once I want her inside hind to lift. When I say it the second time, I want her to lift and hold the outside hind.

I've seen people work with trying to get the horse to alternate hind leg lifts very quickly on the spot to get some hops behind and the beginnings of piaffe steps. She's not quick about it yet. She will fully plant one leg down before lifting the other hind. But we'll keep working to get it quicker.

I've also seen people walk the horse forward in the walk and ask them to lift and hold their hind leg while walking forward to get some hops going behind. We can walk forward and I can ask for 'up' and she'll lift her hind, but she'll pause to do it. I plan to keep working with this as well to see if she'l start doing it while keeping the walking momentum.

I'm not sure which of these two methods out from the leg lifts will be better for her (or for me), but right now I'll work on both since i don't think they're contradictory and we'll see what gets us further along.

[khall]

Blob I’ve used many different approaches to piaffe. Yes I’ve done the leg lifts too both at standing and at walk. AB suggests that the horse must be able to trot in the rotation (moving tof or as she calls it stepping over) to begin to understand piaffe. I find that helps with the ones that are slower behind.

Have you tried counted walk and energizing it? So many approaches!

[blob]

Blob I’ve used many different approaches to piaffe. Yes I’ve done the leg lifts too both at standing and at walk. AB suggests that the horse must be able to trot in the rotation (moving tof or as she calls it stepping over) to begin to understand piaffe. I find that helps with the ones that are slower behind.

Have you tried counted walk and energizing it? So many approaches!

The problem is that MM really wants to trot in the rotation. She will get hot, blow past and trot big instead of staying straight and measured. So, what AB suggests might be a great approach under saddle and maybe eventually on the ground, but it's not something i can do in hand right now with any success. Is the same with counted walk--that's my approach under saddle right now and it's been working well. But in hand, MM doesnt understand and will turn and/or run. So I needed to go back to something that keeps her from running in hand and so far leg lifts seem to be the best option. Though once she gets that a bit more I can play with other things

[Flight]

I tried leg lifts too and all I got was really good leg lifts... didn't progress to piaffe. Then I also find horses taught like this plant the front end and bounce the quarters up and down. Which to be honest, all the competition horses seem to do anyway thesedays.

I struggle inhand with Norsey too, as when he gets a bit anxious he'll just run through me and being so big I have no chance. So I went back to walk halts, halt rein back, tiny walk steps halt.. tiny walk steps halt until he was really snappy about it and not stressed. Then could add in the energy with the tiny walk steps to get half steps.

[Tanga]

Blob-- Have you tried leg lifts in the front? Basically Spanish walk? That caused a HUGE breakthrough for my girls. Quilla did a very obedient, on the spot piaffe, but it was quick and groundbound. When she got Spanish walk and I said "up," she was like "Oh, thats what you want. Here."

So in hand I started her on Spanish walk with up tapping the whip in front. She got that solid in a day. Then I added in hand saying "up" and tapping behind to keep more elevation in everything. I would say my p/p has improved about 150% in the last few months! Now I ride the whole thing with a LOT less seat and just sit there and let her figure it out. I am now differentiating between clicking for piaffe in that super up, collected way and saying "up" for that in the passage and the main signal for both is squeezing the reins rhythmically up. She knows "up" means make sure to make it bigger and slower and get those hocks and knees bent.

[blob]

Tanga, under saddle I get too much in front and not enough behind. So I am avoiding spanish walk right now. In general MM's go to is to get big in the shoulder movement rather than use her booty!

Flight, that's exactly why I had given up on leg lifts previously, it seemed like a road to only leg lifts. But I'm giving it another go since nothing else was really working. She either runs through and gets hot or she stays very calm and does nothing but walk like a slow poke with no activity. So I need try something that is different. So, let's see how these leg lifts go. I honestly don't mind if right now I get a hoppy behind piaffe. It is so easy to get her to activate her shoulder. I also need her to understand the basic concept in hand before I focus on quality of it. Right now she gets upset because she thinks she's doing what she's told when she tries to run past and when it's the wrong answer, I just get a very flustered horse. So I just need a step back to something small and digestible that's more than just lazy walking, but not running through like a charging bull.

[khall]

Blob if you get MM sideways enough and control the outside shoulder in the rotation she can’t go forward and blow through you. It’s hard for the horse to do but definitely builds strength and mobility in their HQs.and you will see the bouncy engagement needed for eventual piaffe.

[blob]

Blob if you get MM sideways enough and control the outside shoulder in the rotation she can’t go forward and blow through you. It’s hard for the horse to do but definitely builds strength and mobility in their HQs.and you will see the bouncy engagement needed for eventual piaffe.

She will run in front of me when I try this. I'm not saying someone else couldn't do this successfully. But i have tried several times without success. She thinks I'm asking her to go and she will just run around me in the smallest circle possible and then she gets upset and worked up. So it's become pretty counter productive for us both. I'm just not able to communicate that i don't want her to run around me and she thinks that's what I want so it ends up with a flustered horse. I can probably come back to it once she understands the basics of what I want on the ground and I can continue to use it under saddle, where I can communicate the right thing! I'm sure it's entirely handler error, but it's definitely something I need to pause on in hand since it's created more of a problem than a solution!

[khall]

Have you tried taking her down the fence line in a steeper counter SI?

Juliet the big TB/perch I work with also wants to run through so I ended up taking her up and down the fence line using the fence to keep her backed off. It definitely helped

Does MM do half steps in hand at all? Can you ask for say SI in trot on straight line then straighten and ask for shorter more engaged trot?

[blob]

Have you tried taking her down the fence line in a steeper counter SI?

Juliet the big TB/perch I work with also wants to run through so I ended up taking her up and down the fence line using the fence to keep her backed off. It definitely helped

Does MM do half steps in hand at all? Can you ask for say SI in trot on straight line then straighten and ask for shorter more engaged trot?

She doesn't do half steps in hand yet, just under saddle. If I ask for SI or counter SI down the fence line, the result is the same. She will either stop and come down to the walk entirely or get hot and run in front of me and come across. If I try too hard to keep her shoulder/flexion to the rail she gets very worked up and will try to spin, change directions and run in the opposite direction. She will do all of it calmly at the walk like there is no worry in the world, but if I ask any increased engagement in any method other than the leg lifts right now, I have a fireball on my hand. I wouldn't mind that if she was getting the idea. But she is clearly confused/doesn't understand.

I think for now i will plan to stick with the leg lifts and instill the verbal cue before I move back to other things. So far it's been the most productive, though I know it will only have limited value. But once she has the verbal cue instilled I will be able to use that with the other pieces. I just have to break the pattern by doing something different in a way that she understands before going back to the other work.

[Flight]

I used to try and trap Norsey against a fence to keep him from swinging around and running off etc, and then the poor thing tried to nip me. He hates touching his muzzle on people! It just showed how worried he would get. I know you are getting all this advice thrown at you, but I'm not sure if I've shared my very first lessons with Norsey and piaffe? I can PM you some video. He was extremely reactive at first and had tantrums when he didn't understand, but whatever you chose to do just keep persisting and working through it. You'll get it!

[khall]

Blob I really like using the leg lifts with my horses as well. All 3 of mine do them with a click at the walk. What I’ve seen with Rip and Gaila is how much more they will left and hold now the hind legs. Initially their lifts were pretty pathetic. I found it does help once you do piaffe work then because they understand the ask for more bending of the hind leg in the piaffe work. Joplin from the get go would hit her belly with her hind leg. Active behind is not a problem with her!

Rip has shown to be able to handle the pressure of the work best on long lines. I can press him harder in the lines than I can in hand though it has now transferred to in hand as well.

It’s all a journey for sure. I was amazed in Portugal how much pressure those horses took without having a freak out. I think it’s just their genetics. Finding Joplin too handles pressure to work much better than my WBs

[blob]

Flight--would love to hear more about your journey with Norsey. And all the advice is appreciated--thank you, Khall for all the adbice and guidance. I am NEW at this.

What's interesting about MM is that she's generally an energy efficient horse, not a reactive one. But I think here because I have done SO much lunging with her she is certain that's what I want and when I keep the pressure or make it clear that's not what I want I think she gets hot and reactive because she doesn't understand why her moving forward from the whip isn't the right answer. But because blowing through aids and getting overly hot is so unlike her usual MO, it leaves me a little baffled.

[Flight]

Poor MM, she's just getting confused when she thinks she doing the right thing. Starting piaffe and changes have been the hardest things for me to learn to teach horses and Norsey and Ding have been quite different in how they reacted to learning piaffe.

I'll send you a vid in a PM.

[blob]

Poor MM, she's just getting confused when she thinks she doing the right thing.

Yes, this is exactly it. I think once she understands what it is that I want, she won't be so reactive. But right now she is getting confused and then upset. It's one of the reasons I think adding the verbal cue will help. Clicking unfortunately I use a lot already when I mean forward. So designating something entirely new I think will help.

I"ll keep an eye out for your PM!

[Chisamba]

have any of you seen the Stahlecker DVD?

[exvet]

Well we've put the piaffe on the back burner. Like the flying changes, Junior locked into my cues and began to anticipate and offer the movement too much LOL. He's impressed my new (old) instructor(s) with his willingness to offer such but we all agree that we'll tuck it away for a while.

[Flight]

have any of you seen the Stahlecker DVD?

No? Off to go and google....

Exvet, not a bad problem to have!

[Chisamba]

He believed that horses should not be given weight to bear too young so had a year long method of in hand work that he used to teach a horse step by step to develop the balance and muscling in hand to ready them for dressage, i believe the video came about as a education series were a few trainers were asked to take a young stallion and bring them on but only Stahlecker actually completed the dvd. He trained Sven Rothenberger's olympic horse, i believe. anyway, i do some of the inhand work he describes, but i admit i do not have all the gadgets he uses