Wayward hands (and other disobedient body parts)

[StraightForward]

It seems like many of us here are trying to correct let's say, suboptimal habits, like wandering hands.

I thought it might be helpful to have a thread on the challenges we're facing, and things we've found useful to help correct the issue, such as an exercise or visualization.

My whole upper body is problematic. I think Annabelle and I have developed a crookedness codependency, which is reinforced by me spending too much time in front of a computer. My body twists to the left, but not to the right. I find it really challenging to just rotate my torso to the right while keeping my inside leg on and my outside leg back. Coincidentally, right is A's stiff side, and her LH wanders. I do this weird thing where I suck my right elbow into my body and create a false connection by bringing my right hand to the withers. Then I am contracting my right shoulder so it's higher, while my left side collapses. I've made some headway on evening out my shoulders, but it tends to go out the window when I'm focused on riding a volte or lateral movement.

So I'm trying to very consciously keep the right rein short enough and keep my right arm a little bit away from my ribs. I think it's better, but then I watched video from my ride yesterday, and I'm somehow leading with my left shoulder into a right turn and canter depart.

However, in correcting myself, I thought of the feeling of doing a fist bump (at hip level obviously) and that seemed helpful as a correction that maintained a forward feeling hand (and got me closing my hands on the reins, which is another topic). On my next ride, I am going to try this same idea for my left hand when circling right to see if it helps me turn my torso properly.

Any other ideas for me?

I'd love to hear what others are working on, or how you slayed any of your past position dragons!

Here is a pic from my most recent lesson. We had just done a C/T transition and I was trying to get it back together to ride a corner. I notice my inside leg is also turned out and bracing a bit; I think that is a clue. The shoulders were looking better in the previous canter work. I'm thinking of I sit a little more on my left seatbone and use some right upper leg, I could stop trying to support her by bracing my right side and twisting up. Now I want to go ride and test my theory.

[Chisamba]

since you asked, I think your inside leg is too straight and away. in other words I agree, you are bracing into the stirrup instead of supporting the bend with the inner calf. I am personally not as critical about the slight turn out in the toe.

anyone who knows me knows I am very adverse to talk about seatbone. in my experience any time people think of seat bones the actually crunch their ribs and drop a shoulder.

I would suggest thinking of using your inside calf to support the outside half half.

[khall]

My issue is my legs. Especially my right one. They want to slip back because I’m bad about rolling my pelvis forward. In Portugal they recommended to ride bareback (they had these wonderful bareback pads) to help the leg position. You cannot slip them back bareback!

So I’m riding Gaila a bit bareback. She’s easy to sit and round

I used to drop my right shoulder. I worked hard on that and don’t have much problem anymore. I would pick a couple of spots in the arena to do a position check as i went by to work on that.

[Chisamba]

I would pick a couple of spots in the arena to do a position check as i went by to work on that.

yes agree

[Chisamba]

I would pick a couple of spots in the arena to do a position check as i went by to work on that.

yes agree

[exvet]

Well I have been one for decades who didn't or couldn't keep my elbows where they were supposed to be. My current coach told me to increase the tension in my 'lats'. She knew I worked out with weights and this was the first comment that resonated with me. I had heard from countless others (all correct with their directive) on how I should glue my elbows to my hips, carry the tray, pretend I had rubberbands between my hip and my elbow, melt my shoulder blades down my back, etc. Until I heard 'this' analogy, I simply did my best to fake it. Now I can honestly say I know where my elbows are and the tension I need to establish through them as well as the give I need to have. My hands have always been "there'. I find thinking less about my hands and more about my elbows and general self carriage with my torso........comments like puppy paw hands and quickening my response by shortening the reins become a figment of my imagination due to not hearing such quite so much

[mari]

My right hand tends to drift higher than the left. So after literally YEARS of teaching myself not to look at my horse's neck or my hands, both instructors now regularly shout at me to "LOOK AT YOUR HANDS! ARE THEY EVEN?"

[Chancellor]

Check out working with exercise bands. It really helps when you are riding to put the band around your wrists and hold your wrists a little out against the band. It brings your shoulders back and brings your shoulder blades down your back. I am sitting here at my computer thinking, hmmmm....this would not be a bad thing to do while I am at the computer either!

[Dresseur]

I've fixed a lot of things over the years, most times it's simply reminding myself over and over - like Khall said, picking a place in the arena and reminding yourself - and then practicing that thing ad nauseum until it becomes part of your dna. I also found that it useful when practicing things in movement - was to not go to the edge of my endurance or strength or whatever so that I could focus on that thing durning the transition. For instance... sitting trot was practiced in the briefest of bursts so that I was "strong" enough to hold for those few seconds until I gained a mastery over my body. For sitting up in transitions, it was making sure I did the transition BEFORE I got tired trying to sit up during whatever gait I was in. That way, the practice is more perfect. But really, time and applying yourself mentally and physically = sometimes seeking external stimuli (bands or longing lessons or whatever) or better visuals will really help too.

[blob]

Gosh, I have so many disobedient body parts!

My biggest position struggle has always been my legs. They always seem to be too far in front of me and I struggle with keeping weight in my stirrups. I don't lose my stirrups and I can often have a 'heel down' look. But I'm not really sinking weight down which probably stems from the fact that my legs are too far in front of me. My legs are better on RP than most horses because he's so small that I can actually wrap my legs around his entire barrel. He's the only horse I've had to ride on a regular basis where my leg actually can cover the entire barrel. But because he is also wiggly, narrow, and prone to antics it is also hard for me to really work on position with him.

Having mirrors would be helpful. But I have been videoing my rides several times a week lately which helps. It's not the same immediate feedback as a mirror, of course. But it still helps to see.

Using the resistance bands once a week or so has helped made my upper body more even.

[StraightForward]

Well I have been one for decades who didn't or couldn't keep my elbows where they were supposed to be. My current coach told me to increase the tension in my 'lats'. She knew I worked out with weights and this was the first comment that resonated with me. I had heard from countless others (all correct with their directive) on how I should glue my elbows to my hips, carry the tray, pretend I had rubberbands between my hip and my elbow, melt my shoulder blades down my back, etc. Until I heard 'this' analogy, I simply did my best to fake it. Now I can honestly say I know where my elbows are and the tension I need to establish through them as well as the give I need to have. My hands have always been "there'. I find thinking less about my hands and more about my elbows and general self carriage with my torso........comments like puppy paw hands and quickening my response by shortening the reins become a figment of my imagination due to not hearing such quite so much

This is good. I've done the same thing - sucking my elbows in, even though I was never one to ride around flapping my arms - so now I think I use it as a crutch to stabilize my upper body. My instructor helped by telling me to think a bit of pushing out against an invisible barrier with the side of the wrist and elbow, especially in the direction of the LY. I see that also engages the lats. Since I'm still riding Tesla in a crash vest, I notice that I can't suck my elbows in, or really collapse my ribcage, so maybe I should try riding Annabelle in that, or a corset.

My problem with the shoulders is that I can't always tell when I'm even, or like in that photo, it falls apart during a transition or difficult moment, so maybe I just need to pay someone to yell at me about just that until I fix it.

[PhoenixRising]

My lower legs sometimes have a mind of their own I struggle a lot with getting my legs to work how I want them to. Sometimes when my inside leg is on, my outside leg will feel stuck. Like I physically struggle to move it... and there have been times I literally couldn't move it. I DID just start seeing a new chiropractor about two weeks ago and found out my sacrum was out. I'm interested to see if the adjustments will have helped at all.
At the same time, I have a tendency to sometimes brace my outside leg into the stirrup at times, thankfully not always. And I seem to have gone from struggling to keep my lower leg back, to sometimes keeping it too far back.
I've mostly just tried to stay aware of it all and try to adjust position whenever I notice. Ordinarily I might have done some more riding without stirrups to get my weight more down, but it's not practical right now with a big belly and a hot and spooky horse.

[demi]

I’m fighting using my right hand too much currently, but it’s because I’m trying to compensate (in a way that doesn’t work!) for my weak right leg/hip. I’ve been having trouble with Rocky’s right lead, but it isn’t quite as simple as just my own weak right leg. I also need to use my core more effectively, pull my shoulders back and down, and lift my upper body to help solidify my core. I actually have great core strength for an old lady (two personal trainers noted this) but I don’t use it to my advantage. When I engage my core, I can pull my right leg in closer which allows me to use both the leg and seatbone more effectively.

So inability to use the right leg/hip/seatbone effectively makes it impossible for me to ride right leg to left rein. I know what it feels like on the left, so now I’m just concentrating on getting the same thing on the right. My right hip (in the front where the ball goes into the socket) starts hurting after about 15 minutes of riding. I then continue another 10. I am trying not to canter right until it “feels” really correct and that isn’t happening consistently. I get hints of it, and I got one nice right walk canter strike off yesterday, but I need to just give it more time. Last week at my lesson my trainer was setting me up for right canter and when she asked me for it, I said I didn’t feel it and didnt want to try. She was just fine with that. I have a lesson tomorrow and I still don’t feel ready for the right canter. I really think it’s going to be better to wait till I feel confident that I’m going to get it rather that having a lot of failed attempts because there are training issues going on as well. We’ll see...

[Flight]

Demi, I just read your update on the training thread and because I used to pull too much with my right hand learning changes with Norsey thought I'd share what I would do. Hold a lock of mane a bit up his neck with your right hand so it keeps you right hand forward, Norsey's was long enough that I could still carry my hand, not have it low on his neck. It just stopped me from pulling back at that crucial moment.

My right lower leg always wants to go too far back, it is weaker and smaller than my left, so now and then I tie my stirrup to the girth to give me that feeling of what it should be like staying more forward.

[goldhorse]

I do piano hands only with the left hand. I've gone back to holding a pair of drumsticks. From my peripheral vision, I can see when the tip of the left drumstick crosses the mane. This is only to be done on a solid horse who doesn't care about sticks in his peripheral vision. A drumstick can still function as a crop when needed
I'm a big fan of gadgets to show faults and to also help with finding muscle memory or whatever it is that gets us into proper position.

Oh, and find me a cure for duck butt and I'll be forever grateful.

[khall]

Gold horse ride bareback. You cannot tip your pelvis forward bareback. I have this issue as well

[Moutaineer]

anyone who knows me knows I am very adverse to talk about seatbone. in my experience any time people think of seat bones the actually crunch their ribs and drop a shoulder.

Thank you for providing me with yet another lightbulb moment, Chisamba. it's about asking the horse to come up to your seat, rather than trying to get your seatbones to the horse. Not sure why it has taken me so long to sort this out. Duh... I worked on this with my trainer today, and it was very enlightening.

[StraightForward]

I hauled out and rode in front of a big wall of mirrors tonight. Since A was being a pill there was not much to do except ride forward and find the correct level of impulsion, so I was able to focus on my right arm/shoulder. I have long arms and a short waist, so I'm finding that I need to be conscious of keeping my elbow out a bit, because if it's tucked into my waist, the shoulder is up. I might even stuff my SPI belt with some wool or something and position it so my elbow touches it if start to suck my arm in. That might be a good reminder for a bit until my new arm position is more habitual.

It's interesting to hear everyone else's struggles and solutions!

[Chisamba]

anyone who knows me knows I am very adverse to talk about seatbone. in my experience any time people think of seat bones the actually crunch their ribs and drop a shoulder.

Thank you for providing me with yet another lightbulb moment, Chisamba. it's about asking the horse to come up to your seat, rather than trying to get your seatbones to the horse. Not sure why it has taken me so long to sort this out. Duh... I worked on this with my trainer today, and it was very enlightening.

excellent thought.
similarly to asking the horse to reach into the contact versus the rider shortening the reins and the neck, as you learn to sit with balance and lightness the horse is allowed to come up into the seat. your seat should encourage the back, not inhibit it.

[blob]

My right lower leg always wants to go too far back, it is weaker and smaller than my left, so now and then I tie my stirrup to the girth to give me that feeling of what it should be like staying more forward.

I probably need to tie both my legs to the girth to keep them from getting too forward. Would be a good thing for me to try with MM.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

My whole body is disobedient ha ha. Just depends on the day and what horse/saddle.

[piedmontfields]

Great topic and lots of good tips.

As I've been doing on-line study with JJ Tate, a great reminder she shares with students is to "sit on your AR (anal ring)". She was told this many years ago when being taught by Kyra Kyrkland. There is a funny story about this on her public Team Tate FB channel, starting at around 14:00 if you want a good story (need to join the group):
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TeamTat ... 2378868854

I find this a pretty vivid way to explain the seat and it does help me really sit down in the saddle and follow the wave of the horse's back.

[blob]

Yesterday I rode with a dressage whip in each hand because I realized the angle of my right hand was different than my left. But it was a hard thing to catch/correct. Having a whip in each hand and letting the whip lie across my thigh, helped me make sure both my hands were the same angle.

[heddylamar]

I was just going to post that technique, blob! Somehow, the mere visual of bit-hand-whip/elbow and beyond is enough to tell my left hand to mind it's own business. I don't have that problem with the right hand ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[piedmontfields]

BTW, another "fix" for me at the moment is riding in a bitless bridle due to Emi's tongue cut. It is more crude in some ways, but it makes my body aids ultra vivid---so that is a bonus for review and correction.

[goldhorse]

Great topic and lots of good tips.

As I've been doing on-line study with JJ Tate, a great reminder she shares with students is to "sit on your AR (anal ring)". She was told this many years ago when being taught by Kyra Kyrkland. There is a funny story about this on her public Team Tate FB channel, starting at around 14:00 if you want a good story (need to join the group):
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TeamTat ... 2378868854

I find this a pretty vivid way to explain the seat and it does help me really sit down in the saddle and follow the wave of the horse's back.

I read a thread about this on COTH and followed up by watching this video. This AR concept has been the most valuable thing for me. Just transformative. I can't give it enough accolades. In the past, I've been told to sit up straight, sit on my pockets, point my seat bones down, yadda yadda yadda. None of it clicked. But by golly, being told to sit on my a$$hole made all the sense in the world to me and my horse is so appreciative.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

The AR concept from J.J. Tate has me rolling!!

When I was a teen, I had a bad habit of slumping and rounding my shoulders. My trainer would yell from the tail "T.O.!" Which stood for t*ts out! Lol

[StraightForward]

This thread has taken a turn! I like the description of lining up the circumference of the head, the ring of the back and clavicle, and ring of the pelvis so they are all stacked, but thinking sit on your AR sums it up in way fewer words!

I've taken a couple rides to focus on sorting out my issue. Need to get some video today or tomorrow and see if there's improvement. It takes a lot of concentration to keep my right shoulder under control in lateral exercises, but now that Annabelle is getting much more conversant in lateral work, it's both doable and needed to improve the quality. I've noticed that something about how she comes down from canter to trot to the right makes me scrunch up my shoulder, so I'm working on that, trying to imagine a fishing weight pulling my elbow down in the transition, and then checking for a scrunched up shoulder the first few trot strides. I think sometimes the scrunching was happening in those moments, but I wasn't recognizing and fixing it, so it carried over to many more moments.

[piedmontfields]

Well, to return to the topic of "wayward hands", I feel I should admit that a few weeks of riding in a bitless bridle has my horse really telling on me!

Taking the bit out makes my hands extra quiet according to my mare, and she is much more willing to stretch into either rein and to follow the rein out. I mean, she's like a normal horse now! So I think I need to work on making my hands much much quieter when we go back to riding with a bit :-0

[goldhorse]

Well, to return to the topic of "wayward hands", I feel I should admit that a few weeks of riding in a bitless bridle has my horse really telling on me!

Taking the bit out makes my hands extra quiet according to my mare, and she is much more willing to stretch into either rein and to follow the rein out. I mean, she's like a normal horse now! So I think I need to work on making my hands much much quieter when we go back to riding with a bit :-0

My ex-trainer used to have us pretend that the bit was sitting in the horse's mouth and the headstall had disappeared. We had to keep the bit quiet by keeping our hands quiet.

[piedmontfields]

Goldhorse, that's a good image for me to remember. My mare wants me at least that quiet, for sure!