Horse shopping, how did you know what you want?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ponichiwa, can you elaborate about what you do not like about his pasterns in the video? Thanks!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

https://youtu.be/3dsJdFxpNDM okay now this one (different horse) is definitely NQR in the hind. Just for comparison.

I definitely do see something with Maggie's Patroit (Milo.) But in comparison it does seem like it could be weakness. Could be neurological too (I don't think so though, or hope not)

I am weak in my glutes, especially in my left leg. So I'm doing extra exercises to strengthen that. I like to think that Dressage can be a little be of the same thing, PT in a way. But the bones and tendons and ligaments need to be healthy for that to be easy!

I wonder if they would entertain a trial. I know most won't do them these days but I've done trials on most that I've bought because the people have outstanding. And I have a million references. I think if he vetted, a trial would be nice. But might be moot if he does vet well lol.

First step is ride #2.

[Ponichiwa]

They look long and (to my taste) drop low during what doesn't look like strenuous work. I bet his trot is very comfy to sit, but one of my sister's horses with similar conformation end up with dropped pasterns at a (relatively) young age (< 15yo), so I've got some sensitivity to it.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ponichiwa oh yes I agree, although it's so common in a TB to be pretty long in the pasterns. I have a friend who lost a young horse to DSLD at 5. She's given me lots of tips that vets (who specialized in DSLD) told her were other indicators.

My last horse had CRAZY long pasterns, always weirded me out but never bothered the vets. Of course the Wobblers got him so I guess we will never know.

[Ryeissa]

I would have a vet do a neruo exam on Milo and see how it goes. If it were me I would test EPM, lyme, etc if it's in your budget.

A bigger positive is if milo was already working at the level you need and is staying sound. This is where a trial would be good. Horses change a lot in the 6 months of a fitness program. I did a lease to buy on my horse and it was great, but it was also a private sale.

It all depends on your risk level and if you get joy out of riding that horse! Good luck

[heddylamar]

I'd ride him a few more times and if you still like him, maybe a trial, then have him vetted. He has a good mind, and nice movement. If the price is right for you, that's worth the chance IMO. You're never going to find the right horse for everyone, you only need to find the right fit for you.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ryeissa, yes I always ask for a neuro exam. I would highly doubt I can convince them to do EPM or Lyme though because it is not really in Colorado or most Western states. We don't have many possums out here and also we don't really have the landscape for many ticks. I've had two horses tested for EPM and lyme but I really had to fight tooth and nail fot it and of course they always presented with no titers lol.

Of course he did race elsewhere very very early in his life but I would like to think that my friend who's extremely experienced would have caught on if something was outright neurologic! I'd be more wary of neck issues than anything. But that's with any young horse. I've seen firsthand how neck issues can fly under the radar...

Milo is off the track 4 months and I'm not sure how much time off he's gotten. There is a change of hands recently in trainers as the western trainer wasn't getting any of these thoroughbreds sold. But they also only have an outdoor so I'm not sure how super consistent they've been able to be. A lease to buy would be ideal! Especially with my paranoia lol.

I'm very gun-shy tbh with any horse these days. But at the same time eager.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

@Heddylamar yeah I think next time I go see him I will just see how I feel about anything that I feel is a red flag. I was looking at multiple last time so it was hard to kind of zero in on anything on one horse. But I didn't like riding any of the others.

[Josette]

I just thought to comment that race horses are shod different (angles and shoes ) than other riding disciplines. These may be some of the changes he is adjusting to with his balance and stride regarding what you felt or observed. I thought he went very well for a OTTB compared to other ex-race horse videos I've viewed. His mind is wonderful and certainly worth your consideration as you mentioned you like TBs. (I love them.) I would rely on the thorough vet exam to identify your concerns.

The other video you posted that horse was definite off in the back. (Some get injured in the starting gate.) BTW I've seen videos of very expensive dressage horses doing some NQR moves that were a red flag to me. We all have different preferences in what we would purchase - so follow your gut and do a thorough vet exam. Good Luck!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Josette totally! I was probably going to take him to a nearby hospital where I actually had my other horse diagnosed with wobblers. They just have a lot of extremely experienced and specialized vets there and extremely high-tech equipment. They are light years more expensive and practically anyone else but vetting isn't the time to really worry about cost.

Anyways I think the sky was enjoyable enough to go see for at least a second ride and see how I feel after that. I am a sucker for a good mind but they also do need to vet well

[Lipsmackerpony88]

He did quite like to sit back on his haunches when he was playing on the lunge and when he was playing with his pasture mate in his little paddock. It's always encouraging to see when they want to get on the hunches and sit on their own accord haha.

[Tanga]

I think you're going to do everything right if you do a vet check. I don't see anything in the hind end, and that's what I look at. All horses have missteps. I am SUPER impressed he is four months off the track and looks that good. I don't love being raced, but if he did it and stayed sound, that's a good thing.

I don't see anything in his pasterns, either. I think all of the weaknesses, like so many things, can be fixed with time and conditioning. And seeing what he does free and on his own tells a lot. You can see he can do the levades, or pirouettes, or changes.

Usually off the track you're looking at years of reworking those muscles. I think he's much better than what I would have expected four months off the track, especially in his neck set and back. He already wants to work correctly for dressage, and I'm sure he can jump just fine.

We're all very excited for you! It's so fun to help other people look for horses!

[blob]

I agree with Tanga!

I will also add that weakness is a lot more common than neurological problems and a horse that is young and just barely off the track is not expected to be super strong in the hind end.

[Ryeissa]

I like him better in the one where you are wearing the blue shirt. his trot is good 2 beat.
Sorry if I am getting horses mixed up? The one where he looked weaker was a different day.
I would see how he looks with out tack and in a halter. There are many influences from the rider/tack/aids that result in different impressions. When I see a new client I see the horse walking and trotting on a straight line, turning, and WTC on longe even if I think I know. It helps see a basline and makes it easier for me.

[MsM]

Good luck! He looks like a really nice boy. I am impressed by his balance at this stage.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Okay here is few a little clips of me on him. Just a little trot. My position is horrid. This is why I want lunge lessons. It didn't help that I was so sore from my "jumping" lesson on Thursday. I was feeling it! https://youtu.be/e77xNfOvA6E
https://youtu.be/RrJEOjDdUqE
He did catch a toe occasionally in the hind and sometimes felt tailfishy with his hindend on a turn. Whether this was just from being young green and off the track I don't know. You can see it on the second video at 1:11-1:14

But I think he's worth a second look. I'd like him a little more supple laterally and I think he could use a lot more groundwork, for what I saw on the lunge. But does seem like he's got a good mind. A worker bee type the anticipates a little bit for sure reminds me of my first off the track years ago.

Ryeissa, these are me riding in the blue jacket. The other video is a sale video (tall rider in a black jacket.)

I did see him on the lunge (I wish I had video.) He didn't take any funny steps and seemed pretty free in his body. He definitely has a natural balance that is nice. He was a bit resistant to go right, but it looked more like off the track/green behavior. It was clear he has not been lunged much. All the horses there acted similarly about it, but some had big opinions. He was trying to figure out what she wanted.

[Ryeissa]

Okay here is few a little clips of me on him. Just a little trot. My position is horrid. This is why I want lunge lessons. It didn't help that I was so sore from my "jumping" lesson on Thursday. I was feeling it! https://youtu.be/e77xNfOvA6E
https://youtu.be/RrJEOjDdUqE
He did catch a toe occasionally in the hind and sometimes felt tailfishy with his hindend on a turn. Whether this was just from being young green and off the track I don't know. You can see it on the second video at 1:11-1:14

But I think he's worth a second look. I'd like him a little more supple laterally and I think he could use a lot more groundwork, for what I saw on the lunge. But does seem like he's got a good mind. A worker bee type the anticipates a little bit for sure reminds me of my first off the track years ago.

Ryeissa, these are me riding in the blue jacket. The other video is a sale video (tall rider in a black jacket.)

I did see him on the lunge (I wish I had video.) He didn't take any funny steps and seemed pretty free in his body. He definitely has a natural balance that is nice. He was a bit resistant to go right, but it looked more like off the track/green behavior. It was clear he has not been lunged much. All the horses there acted similarly about it, but some had big opinions. He was trying to figure out what she wanted.

yeah, I say try again and maybe do a vet check to see what comes up. Good to see the same horse in different scenarios, field, trail, and tack up yourself. There is wisdom when you buy a house to see the house in the nightime (ie- is there an airport? railroad tracks that you didn't notice? stadium with lights that are more apparent at night?) and the same applies to horses.
Nice horse, could be a real bargan. I'm limited on what i can say from here, but I would keep going with this if he is fun for you

[Lipsmackerpony88]

@Ryeissa yep! I think there is enough possiblity to warrant a second ride. This time it will be pretty cold and she's hauling him to her neighbor's indoor arena so definitely will see him in a different setting.

I'm contemplating even asking about a trial, I know that's rare these days but I've done a few and have great references. Never hurts to ask anyways.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Well I drove down there to try him with a knot in my stomach for the second ride. I have no real reasonable explanation for this, except that I have some baggage after losing 2 young horses. I feel anxious about this decision.

And then I just made a dang fool of myself. I didn't ride well and I let some of my emotional baggage show to the sellers. So embarrassing and I'm frustrated but I have to deal with it I guess.

It was 20 degrees and snowing so we trailered him alone to a nearby indoor arena. He did great trailering, walked into the indoor super calmly. I asked that she hop on for a second just because I don't know him and we are at a new place.

The trainer rode in Germany and I will say her style is very German. I'd say I'm more familiar with that but I've been taught a blend and I do think I take things slower and more conservative than some, with a young horse. She tends to get him into the contact right away, where I like to encourage relaxation on a loose rein at the walk.

Honestly he was very well behaved. He definitely had a little more pep in his step, as to be expected. I definitely had moments of tension and I was fighting my position. I needed to use my core and get him through with some proper half halts but I was struggling in my position in that it felt impossible. I told her that I didn't know if I was the right rider for him.

Everyone seemed puzzled and shocked that I said that (including my husband.) So she said well ride a little more first. So I asked her to help with his lateral work. That was fun, he definitely is working on some leg yields, shoulder fore/in.

I left with plans to see him one more time (I offered to pay for a lesson next time) and another horse there I have not seen.

Watching video, it didn't look as awful as it felt. I think I just bubbled over with my baggage. I am a little worried about his stifles though. I thought when she was riding that he did look weaker in the left hind. And at the walk there was obvious hock wringing going on. I hope it's just young horse weakness but could be more. Would definitely need to xray his stifles.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

https://youtu.be/o07LQ3ySwYo shows the hock wringing. I'm not sure why the video quality sucks, I think my husband had issues using my new phone.

https://youtu.be/W1VBgTUO1Gg she said he had learned about stretchy trot the day before so he was happy to offer that through the ride. So there was moments of relaxation but also tension (rider caused I think.) I don't know. I just didn't feel like it was my best ride abd that I could commit then. I can not tell if I'm being rediculous or not.

[StraightForward]

The hock does look a little wonky there. I wonder if it might be from an imbalance in the foot or somewhere else? Maybe you could have your PPE vet look at the video before you proceed?

He is sure being wonderful for a green horse in a new place on such a cold day!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Straightforward, yeah he definitely has some weakness in his left. Could be so many things. I did have my vet look at the video of his wonky step in my first ride. She thought his stifle was weak.

Unfortunately he's too far for her to do a PPE. Unless I perhaps do a trial but honestly I want neck rads too so a bigger clinic is best.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

And he really could not have been more well behaved there. He definitely is a brave guy.

[Tanga]

lipsmacker, You are WAY too hard on yourself. You're riding just fine. And you know what, you feeling like you are way off and scared and a tough day is the best thing ever. You want to try him out in the worst of conditions and be OK, and he was wonderful! The few times I've sold a horse I made people ride them in the toughest/worst of situations so they felt like they'd seen the worst of it and thought it was the right horse.

I think taking a lesson sounds great.

I see the hock, but if the vet is OK, I wouldn't be too worried. My old stand by--conditioning and strengthening fixes a lot. I think because he hasn't sold quickly, you have a good chance of getting a trial. Maybe even offer a small portion of the price you will give up if he doesn't work out.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, I just get so frustrated when I can feel myself making a mistake. But you know how riding is, sometimes our bodies are doing something different then we think we are. I wonder if I just got cold feet, because losing two horses prematurely was super hard. I am eager to find a new partner but it just feels like such a big decision.

I do think this guy has a great brain. I'm not sure he will vet but he might. When he gets going, he is a pretty mover for sure.

[khall]

Well you don’t see the issue in the trot. I’m still so impressed with his brain. What a good guy. I hope he works out for you

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Khall, his brain is absolutely my type for sure!

[blob]

If you like working with him and like his brain and personality, I think it would be worth getting a PPE on him sooner rather than later. I would not look at the PPE as something you're looking for him to CLEAR, but rather as an opportunity to learn where he currently is phyisclally. A lot of weakness issues are really NBD and to be expected. A horse you like and a horse with a good brain is worth A LOT.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Blob, he is a very good boy. I will decide if I want to vet after this next ride.

He does have filling in his ankles (I'm assuming/hoping osselets) and then he's at the very least weak in the left stifle. Unfortunately with an OTTB it's a toss up if they will vet.

[Ryeissa]

You ride him great! It looked like a nice partnership and you rode him well.

I would definitely keep checking the hind end. I don't consider that just normal "weakness" but it's so hard to tell. My POV is dressage needs a horse that "starts with a good engine" at least in a basic way. Remember I had to put down a neuro horse that showed hind end weirdness, so I have a very different view.

He's a lovely horse!

[blob]

fwiw--MM has filling in both hinds--she hasn't been lame/off for even a single day in the past 7 years and has very clean xrays. Bodies are strange.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ryeissa, I also lost a horse to neurological issues that originally seemed a little weak behind do definitely hyper aware as well. I'm not picking up any neuro vibes personally, to me it's very classic stifle. But that can be normal weakness or could be OCD/arthritis too. Especially off the track.

Blob, I also had a horse that had chunky ankles but clean x-rays. Although these do look like osselets, not huge though.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I will say that I probably make most horses look weak in the hind end. I'm better at getting relaxation than I am engaging them lol it's a flaw I'm working on...

[Ryeissa]

Ryeissa, I also lost a horse to neurological issues that originally seemed a little weak behind do definitely hyper aware as well. I'm not picking up any neuro vibes personally, to me it's very classic stifle. But that can be normal weakness or could be OCD/arthritis too. Especially off the track.

Blob, I also had a horse that had chunky ankles but clean x-rays. Although these do look like osselets, not huge though.

Right, its just a piece of the puzzle. you get to decide if that is the puzzle that works for you

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I'm hoping to see him one last time next Saturday (although I think others are checking him out this weekend so he might be sold.) Then its $#!t or get off the pot.

It's only been 4 1/2 months since I lost my young horse to Wobblers. I'm so anxious for a new dressage partner but I'm facing the reality that this is hard. If this guy doesn't pan out, I think I'll stick to lessons/riding until COVID/winter is more under control so I can shop more. Right now I'm stuck in an area without much available and that's tough.

[Ryeissa]

I'm hoping to see him one last time next Saturday (although I think others are checking him out this weekend so he might be sold.) Then its $#!t or get off the pot.

It's only been 4 1/2 months since I lost my young horse to Wobblers. I'm so anxious for a new dressage partner but I'm facing the reality that this is hard. If this guy doesn't pan out, I think I'll stick to lessons/riding until COVID/winter is more under control so I can shop more. Right now I'm stuck in an area without much available and that's tough.

I am starting to feel like an emotionally invested "aunt"
Good luck!
Sorry you are a bit stuck. I know it's tough. For me my anxiety is generally a lot worse vs before I lost my neuro horse- so less about buying my next horse but I had more stress since I knew the bad that could happen. If you think it might help i talked to a vet specific grief counselor. It might help....? for me it was free though the vet. Sometimes it takes awhile for things to show up. For me I also felt better buying different tack- some of that was because my horse was a different size, but since they were different colors complely it was nice to have a fresh start with new halters, colors, etc as much as it made sense.....I got some new saddle pads and boots (ok, ok, well too many LOL)

[demi]

I think taking lessons for a while till the covid thing settles down my be just the ticket. Try to relax and enjoy the process, lipsmacker.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

@Ryeissa, ha! Well, it's really nice to have place to talk with like minded people. Sometimes it's hard for non-horse people to understand. I'm driven about my goals and I love dressage and I'm not giving up. But I see my horses as partners and it's incredibly hard to lose them. I also lost a horse to trigeminal nerve pain (that was a horrible battle) a few years before this. I've had perfectly healthy horses as well of course but I've definitely had some losses. As a kid, I lost a horse to a pasture accident as well. I know first hand how cruel life can be.

But I know it can be really wonderful too. I'm clinging to that feeling and I am hopeful. But I think I'm definitely a bit gun-shy. Like you said sometimes the feelings can kind of come later or sneak up out of nowhere. I was hyperventilating practically when we were driving to try this horse for the second time. I don't think I had anything to do with him except that I thought maybe I would be vetting him. And I was nervous about that. I'm not sure if that means he's not the right fit or if it just means that the emotions are there. As they should be. I think I would rather have moments full of emotion than be a robot about this.

Grief counseling sounds like a good idea. I had a friend reach out about sports psychology counseling which I'm not saying I couldn't benefit from that ever lol but grief counseling is something I never considered. I'll look into that even just a few sessions.

In the meantime I'm going to keep riding and yes gently looking but I think I just need to sit chilly for a bit. I hope that the right horse/situation will kind of present itself.

[Srhorselady]

Another possibility...if this horse hasn’t sold before you see him again why don’t you ask if you could pay to lease him for one month. You’d have to insure, but you could take your time as a trial and use your vet for the PPE. There are ALWAYS findings in the PPE so you could see if they are things you can live with. Also you’d have a horse to ride for a month!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Another possibility...if this horse hasn’t sold before you see him again why don’t you ask if you could pay to lease him for one month. You’d have to insure, but you could take your time as a trial and use your vet for the PPE. There are ALWAYS findings in the PPE so you could see if they are things you can live with. Also you’d have a horse to ride for a month!

That would be ideal!!

[Ryeissa]

yea- make it a LEASE TO BUY - vs just a lease---I did this and it worked great but it was a bit of a private sale. Anywoo, my advice is have the purchase price IN WRITING the day you start a trial and agree NO ONE ELSE gets to buy him. I had situations (not recent) where I made the horse look good so they jacked up the price LOL.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ryeissa, absolutely! Unfortunately some people don't have great morals like most of us here do! That's a good reminder, I don't need anything to get complicated.

[blob]

deleting this was meant for another thread!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Sigh...after many months of really good solid work with RP this week has been a total mess. I felt like i've gone back 6 months in time to a horse that is back to the head tossing, stuck in the back, against the leg nonsense.

Given the history and given the sudden resurgence of this with no clear rhyme or reason, I have to believe something physical is going on. But what? It feels like he might have some stomach discomfort going on again--like he's bloated or gassy. 4 weeks ago we changed up his feed slightly--instead of getting alfalfa pellets, we've upped his alfalfa hay. Before he was getting one flake + pellets. Now he's getting enough of the actual hay to make up for the weight he was getting in pellets. If this was going to create a problem i would have expected it within the first 10 days of the change. Not now...but it could be? I'm not sure what to think...

Blob I think maybe you posted this here on accident, but I'm sorry to hear about RP. So many reasons are possible. I did have a horse years ago that couldn't handle alfalfa, although we tried hay never any pellets. I hope you figure it out. Is he on a digestive supplement at all? For ulcer prevention?

Best of luck to get him sorted!

[Ryeissa]

Blob sent you a PM with a stomach supplement that is wonderful

[StraightForward]

This popped up on FB today. Boise area. Erin is an eventer and is running Once Upon a Horse in Eagle.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

What a cutie, Straightforward!

Well I tried the OTTB gelding one last time. I'm passing. I honestly just find him much too strong in the bridle and stiff on top of the stifle issues. He's got a great brain but I just didn't enjoy him enough to be honest. It certainly could be how he's been restarted (the lady rides much more strongly than I do.) But I'm not wanting to gamble on that right now. Absolutely I can ride better and should ride better. But I think the relationship/rides should feel relatively easy. My rides on him felt like I was really having to bring my all (which didn't feel like enough.)

Today I actually paid for a lesson on him, just so if I ended up passing, I felt better about it. And I thought having support might help. But if anything, it was my worst ride yet. I told her I wanted to work on transitions, especially downward with him. She had me do a snowman type formation with 20 meter and 10 meter circles. We also did some shoulder in.

I would have moments of relaxation but never felt that anything was really helping. If he does have stifle issues (even just weakness) then 10 meter circles and shoulder in is probably a lot for him in my opinion.

It was very interesting because a lot of people seeing video thought he looked so soft and quiet. That really surprised me because that's never how he felt to me lol.

I think this highlights again that I don't want an extreme push ride but also don't want a hot or strong horse. I really like my young horses to be the type that when you put the leg on the respond but also stay with you and come back easily. They all have been the type you could easily ride w/t/c on the buckle for a hack if you wanted too but also could skip the whip too.

So more lessons and waiting it out for me. The right one will appear eventually.

[Ryeissa]

yeah, sounds like a smart move to pass. It's valuable to ride a lot of different horses and compare/contrast.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ryeissa the trick is not settling and not being unrealistic :p

[Ryeissa]

Ryeissa the trick is not settling and not being unrealistic :p

just like with men heheh luckily I was not shopping for men nor the two horses when I found Awesome Hubby and Awesome horses, so no real suggestions for you LOL.