Those that have done the impossible

[Lipsmackerpony88]

So on another board I asked a question about a budget for being the dressage prospect. I know a few of you saw it/commented. The responses were all of the place. Many were encouraging! But a decent amount were very negative to ridiculous in my opinion. Some were that you absolutely could not buy anything that could stay sound to do 3rd/4th level work for under $30k. It was simply not really possible, according to some.

Others said that yes you could buy a cheaper horse but it would be impossible for an amateur to do it without the horse in full training, full time at least for a few years.

I find this funny because I know so many, including many here, that are doing the impossible! I've personally known many who have gotten scores on off breeds or that have done much of the training (with lessons) of the training themselves. I know the expensive horse and full time training is much a easier way. I just think it's hogwash to say it's the only way.

I only feel more determined when I'm told I can't be told to do something. I'd love to hear more about those that have "done it." Whether that's backing your own horse, getting to 3rd without full training, going GP on a QH, juggling moving up the levels when you have children or physical issues.

I know it's damn hard work and I know it's still never cheap. But I know there are people here who have tuned out the naysayers and did it anyways!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Also to be clear, I have great respect for those that have fancy horses and a demanding job with horse's in full training. Either way it's not easy. Those big movers aren't easy to ride either.

[Flight]

Of course you can do it on a cheap horse/yourself. Will you get the big scores - maybe not. Can you teach a horse tempi changes/piaffe etc.. well if I can do it on my extremely average horses anyone can! You just have to be willing to put the time and study into it. It wont work if you ride once every few weeks and rarely think about the training.

All I can say is try and find a horse with as balanced conformation as you can, this will just make the movements easier to train.

Edited to add: I bought my horses are youngsters (one 10month old, the other a 3yo) and started them under saddle myself and have had intermittent coaching throughout. Work full time shift work, but no kids.

[Moutaineer]

Is it about the journey, or the goal?

I'm teetering on the brink of third level. Changes are our only problem--my problem, really, not his--a younger, more talented and braver rider (I'm looking at you, Flight ) would undoubtedly have got this a while ago, but I've learned so much and improved my own skill set so much in working through this, that the journey has been entirely worth it.

I'm not in full training--I take two or three lessons a month, but from the best in the area, and in a normal year I'd probably do a clinic every quarter with the same clinician I have worked with for a number of years. I love to learn and would much rather do a clinic than go to a show. I do my homework diligently between lessons and I ride probably 4 times a week, 5 in a good week. Sometimes, I have weeks where life and work intervene and it just doesn't happen, but that's OK, too.

In a normal year, I'll show maybe 3 or 4 times. Some years, it comes together and we can do more, maybe squeeze in an "away" event, which is good fun. Some years, we've only made it to one show, this year, of course, none. Haven't missed it. I'm usually all gung-ho for it at the beginning of the season, and then i realize what an exhausting slog it is dealing with the whole scene in the height of a desert summer...

I have a really nice, well-bred for the job, horse who came to me for almost free through rather roundabout circumstances and in not good physical or mental shape. We've had our soundness issues, but so have the horses I know that cost multiple times more his price, so that's the luck of the draw. So looking at him now, fit, healthy and happy (apart from the current sodding abscess) and correct in his work is another journey I have found incredibly rewarding. (And the reason I have him is because people know me as being more journey than goal oriented, so it was known I'd give him the time and space he so obviously needed rather than pushing for "success" at his expense.)

I take great care of my horse's physical well-being. I board him where he is pampered, well-fed, turned out every day and the footing is excellent. It costs a freaking fortune and the barn manager is extremely difficult, but she knows how to care for horses. I have an excellent farrier, and a very good, but pragmatic, vet who I have used for many years.

Do I sometimes think I should have been able to progress faster? Of course I do, when I first got Laddie, I felt I had something to prove to some of his previous connections, but, eh, I've got over that... none of us are going to the Olympics at this point, so we'll just be a good as we can be at what we can do.

[blob]

I'm not there yet--one third level score away. But I would love to be able to say that I got my bronze medal on a $125 mustang that I gentled and started under saddle myself. We've never been in full training together and have gone months on months with no lessons in between (not by my choosing, just circumstance). Getting to first level was easy. Getting to second level was doable. Now, third level is hard. And while I got one of my bronze medal scores (a 62%). We're not confirmed in a way that it's made sense to go back out to recognized shows until we can get organized. But if it takes us another 4 years to get our last score, then so be it. Though, I really, really hope it doesn't take that long!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Flight, you are such an inspiration as are many here! I'm definitely willing to put in the time and I already have been studying for years. I'm so passionate about horses and dressage.

It definitely is about juggling time and I definitely don't have ideal circumstances but I'm dedicated.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Mountaineer, your view is very similar to mine. If I just work hard and progress as a rider, I don't care how long it takes. It's already taken me forever to get where I am now! But I love it!

I can see myself showing very occasionally but probably not more than a few times a year. Probably only once or twice a year. It's the training that interests me.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Blob, well for one I think it's already so badass that you started your own mustang and got this far. I think you should already be extremely proud. The changes might take a bit to get solid but I have the feeling you will get there. You are obviously a great rider and do well with MM.

I would be tickled pink to just talk about Flying changes being on the table!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I think to do it with a few cards stacked against you, it seems like you have to be determined, dedicated, patient, self-aware, confident (but not cocky.) That's just some elements that I'm picking up from many of you here. And everyone is so passionate which I think is a huge factor as well.

[Tanga]

Well, yeah. Of course you can. I've never had a trained horse and rarely ever ridden one trained. My first horse was an Appy I got a 17 for $800 and started dressage when he was 13 with very little help--clinics about twice a year. I got him to FEI (did GP once, got a 56, that was it, stayed at I-1 forever.) He was sound doing I-1 work until he died at 31. Every other horse I had to bred (except the one I bought as a badly greenbroke 8 year old) and do everything myself.

SO, yeah. You can do it. You will make a lot of mistakes, but who says those aren't more valuable than doing it the other way. It could tale you 40 years like me, but it's your journey.

My original screen name on a horse board was Neverquit, because that is the primary reason for any "success" in riding, and I think it is for everyone.

[Tanga]

Well, yeah. Of course you can. I've never had a trained horse and rarely ever ridden one trained. My first horse was an Appy I got a 17 for $800 and started dressage when he was 13 with very little help--clinics about twice a year. I got him to FEI (did GP once, got a 56, that was it, stayed at I-1 forever.) He was sound doing I-1 work until he died at 31. Every other horse I had to bred (except the one I bought as a badly greenbroke 8 year old) and do everything myself.

SO, yeah. You can do it. You will make a lot of mistakes, but who says those aren't more valuable than doing it the other way. It could tale you 40 years like me, but it's your journey.

My original screen name on a horse board was Neverquit, because that is the primary reason for any "success" in riding, and I think it is for everyone.

[khall]

I’ve been doing this dressage thing for a long time now. I’ve had to start or restart (OTTB) all of the horses I’ve owned and trained. The three I own and ride now are ones I’ve bred raised and put most of the work on. Rip did get sent off for the first 30 days. It’s the training I enjoy. Showing is just so dang expensive for recognized I doubt I’ll go down that road again. I’ve taken several to 2nd and my OTTB to 3rd Rip needs changes and have been blessed to have ridden several trained FEI horses and have traveled to both Spain and Portugal to lesson on Iberians. Would love to go back to Portugal to ride again one day.

I host clinics (this year has been an exception) to ride with the trainers I enjoy Cedar Potts Warner and Jillian Kreinbring. 4-5 times a year.

My OTTB was the most talented horse I owned though I do think Joplin will be just as good but brain wise he was difficult. I do think a good mind is the biggest plus in a dressage horse. Those that have so much try will out perform their conformation and movement.

If it’s the work you enjoy then there is no reason why you cannot find a decent minded horse of any breed ( the cheap horses I think are under utilized in dressage world are ASBs) and enjoy the journey.

Hope you find what you want soon! Keep us posted

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, love your old username! That's awesome and very inspiring. And if it takes my the rest of my life, well that's a life well spent.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Khall, I agree with the mind! It really is important, along with soundness.

What breed is Joplin? I saw a video of you riding her, she looks very cool.

[khall]

Lipsmacker Joplin is half Lusitano out of a Han/TB mare I bred. She is exactly what I wanted when I bred for her. Incredible brain to train and movement that I am excited about. After riding WBs for so many years Joplin is a breath of fresh air. Though her dam was a light and easy horse to ride just not as talented as Joplin is.

I’m obsessed with the Iberians now. I love their brain and ability I do like aWB/TB cross but won’t have a full WB again.

[exvet]

Well you know much of my story............but for the parts you might not be aware of............... I got into dressage after my beloved baby green TB mare let me know that she would never be able to jump her way out of a paper bag. Back in that day she's wasn't exactly cheap but I bought her with savings I earned working during high school and bought her as a long yearling in order to afford a fancy hj horse. Lesson learned and adapted though dressage at the time wasn't my favorite pursuit. Well I got hooked and after she had to be retired to be a broodmare I started buying unstarted or green horse to flip...............long story short I got to a point where everyone around me said I had to have a warmblood, bred for the discipline to do the job and to stop wasting my time with grade or unconventional types. So I drunk the kool aid and started my brief journey with holsteiners. I was not happy. I had a couple of 'prickly, difficult types' that I could ride and even did well with but I did not enjoy dealing with their hot house flower, DIVA personalities. That is what launched me on my hunt and research of pony breeds to determine 'where' I wanted to focus my energies. I also did the one thing I never thought I would do. I bought an Arab who's owner was having difficulty with him at training level due to his 'energy level' and anticipatory antics. It took a long while but I managed to get him to third and earn my bronze as well as learned a lot of lessons on the way. When I purchased him I just wanted a horse to enjoy 'now' while I learned dressage. It was one of the best decisions I ever made - buy a horse who could put a smile on my face. As stated when I bought him I had already started my journey towards the welsh world and eventually bought yearlings and two year olds to start my program. So while I was riding the Ayerab I was growing my welsh cob contingent. I've ridden three to FEI though so far PSG/intermediate has been our ceiling for a whole host of reasons and excuses. Junior is my hope to earn my gold (if the powers that be will it) on a homebred that I backed and trained. I've earned bronze and silver, 6 Dover medals, a few all-breed awards, high point awards, ridden and placed in regional championships up through third level and ridden in more than one USDF sponsored symposium - all on unconventional types that never exceeded $4500 in purchase price or were given to me for free. I did and continue to do everything on a budget. I have been blessed and have never looked back. Love what your ride and ride what you love. It is possible to go places when you do that.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Exvet, so were you able to most of this with just lessons alone? I'm not against any training when needed.For example when I bought my last guy he had 90ish days with the trainer and I decided to leave him there for another month, for partial training. But I definitely don't want to do that full time nor could I really afford that anyways. So I do always think about buying a horse that I really enjoy, feel comfortable with and can ride alone between lessons.

I'm trying an Andalusian soon for a test ride. My first one. I'm excited to branch out from TB's. Just to see what else is out there.

[StraightForward]

The great thing about dressage is that we can have longevity as riders and continue to improve over decades, unlike many other athletes.

The 14 years since I bought my first intended dressage horse have brought a lot of frustration, but lots of growth too. I'm turning 43 next week, and it's nice to think that I can keep on improving and learning for another 30 years or more.

The fancy horses do not make life easier. My purpose-bred dressage horse was quite a PITA today, while my little Appendix mare really worked with me and tried. It will be interesting to see how they progress in different ways, but I think they both will as long as I keep putting in the work. A lot of the posters here are proof that perseverance and smart training pay off in the long run.

Good luck with the test ride!

[exvet]

There is nothing wrong with getting professional training. I simply did not have the cash nor the desire for the most part. I always have had trouble finding someone I could trust after some very early exposure of some low handed trainers (hunter world). If we're talking about dressage there are two times I had someone back my horses - my holsteiner that sealed the deal that I was going to sell out of my warmbloods and find what i loved riding. The decision to do so had nothing to do with the experience of having someone else back this horse. I sought out their help because I had recently given birth and they did do a good job. I had the same person back one of my welsh cobs I had purchased as a two year old. Again I had very young children at the time and simply did not have the time because I also worked two jobs. During those years (3 to be exact) I also had sent a warmblood mare to a different trainer for one month each time I did give birth (so two weeks before and two weeks after) for obvious reasons - to tune her up so I could get back into competing. Once I moved to Arizona (22 years ago with one Arab (THE Ayerab) and three welsh cobs in tow) I never put any of my horses in training because I never found anyone I could trust to do a better job - arrogant? .......perhaps, but that is the truth. That's the long answer to telling you, "Yes, it was done almost entirely on lessons or clinics, my sweat equity and true heart from my various mounts."

Keys to my experience? A willingness to get lunge lessons over the period of a few months and that was with that wonderful Ayerab soul - a perfect dope on a rope...absolutely invaluable, determination (a never die attitude), and doing my best to listen to my horses. I have always been into biomechanics much a result of my veterinary background. I also can't discount the fact that I've been on horseback since the beginning of time so fear really has never entered into my equations. I held a jockey card and rode horses and ponies from the start at a very early age. As has been said by others, I made many mistakes, learned a lot of lessons and got damn lucky. I've had the gift of some absolutely wonderful horses who gave me their all. If it had not been for their forgiving souls and 'never die attitude' I could not claim all of the wonderful experiences I've been blessed to have lived. Lastly one of my best mentors was my grandfather, a long time Morgan breeder, who taught me across multiple species how important pedigree, genetics, conformation and HEART really is. It isn't the wrapper that counts. It's what's underneath that wrapper that will determine one's destiny.

Seriously I never had any aspirations to go to the Olympics or compete in CDIs. That alone made my choices realistic and limited only by my willingness to put time, effort and sweat into it.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Straightforward, so true, we hopefully have a lifetime to continue and improve.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Exvet, finding a professional to trust is tricky. I actually like the little eventer I have used. She's NOT a dressage trainer. But her young horses are so calm, confident and happy. They all have a good relationship to the bit and leg. Just a good start.

But yes I prefer to do most on my own. So I need a horse who's temperament fits that!

I LOVE lunge lessons. Hard to find right now but I think I found someone who can lunge me. Back when I was a working student, at my "best" I begged for lunge lessons, rode everything I could. I rode fancy horses and some junky ones too. I don't say that to be mean and I don't mean off breed. But they really were horses with issues. But a horse was a horse and I was grateful for any saddle time when I was horseless. I also rode some older, steady types and used them to focus on my seat. I would ride them mostly without stirrups. My seat blossomed because of that.

My schedule isn't as free now but I'm trying to duplicate that. I do feel starting with my seat will help everything else!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I still find it funny that people will claim that you just can't do it without at least a $30k horse. Or at least full time professional training for years and years.
To me it's a little "you can't sit with us or play in our sandbox."
You guys are a testament that that just isn't true. You just have to work harder.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I started Dressage with someone who got all their medals on an a QH. I have an acquaintance that's an older lady who got her OTTB to 4th level. She might have done lots of professional training but still impressive.

There is a trainer locally that rode a mustang to I believe 4th? Maybe PSG. The trainer I'm currently riding with rode an Arabian for awhile.

I know Jeremy Steinberg trained two TBs to GP.

I just know so many examples of people who have done it or are doing it. In the show ring or at home for fun.

I just don't know how the naysayers can be so blind.

[StraightForward]

For sure. I'm clinicing with Carrie Harnden for the second time this weekend. She was excited to work with Annabelle because her first GP horse was Appendix. I think it really is difficult for trainers who've always ridden purpose-bred horses to understand and work with other types of horses effectively.

There is no need to ride with trainers who are unenthusiastic about your horse and approach working with you from a mindset of the horse's limitations. My main instructor acknowledges that Annabelle is not naturally uphill, but it's approached from "we are going to teach her to free up her front end so she can do the mediums and changes" Not "this horse will never have the carriage to get past 2nd."

[khall]

Frankly you learn more from the difficult ones. I know I have! Though I’m blessed to have Joplin that is way easier than Rip ever thought to be.

I still go back to having a good workmanlike mind. One that tries hard way more important than all the talent in the world. My OTTB was extremely talented but from his history and tense temperament he was very difficult to train. Rip is always thinking around the training. Busy minded. He’s better but man he earned some real nicknames when he was younger

[Kelo]

Maybe not "impossible" -- just "unlikely."

But I'm certainly in that category.

Bought The Cowpony for $4,500 as a 3-year-old. He was started in cutting as a 2-year-old, fell way behind, had done a little pasture doctoring when I got him, but he was basic WTC broke at the time. He's got hall of fame blood in his second generation, but his immediate sire and dam were unshown. He's kind of the "old time" cutting horse blood that isn't in favor anymore. I fell in love with him the instant I laid eyes on him, and that was 17 years ago, my opinion sure hasn't changed

Anyway, we kinda puttered around a little bit, went into reining as I had limited access to cattle. We did pretty well, earned regular paychecks, then a few years later a local reined cow horse club started and we did that, and have ever since, he's a decent little horse, regular checks and awards, he's even taken me to the world show twice.

Somewhere in there I tried dressage as a lark, as I had friends that did it. First I borrowed, then bought my friend's backup $200 dressage saddle, did a training level test at a local show, then did the "opportunity" class at a recognized show. We did well, and so kept at it. I found I enjoyed the challenge of it.

Somewhere around Second Level I decided I needed help, and had to figure out a way to do online live lessons -- mind you this was 10 years ago, before it was common like today. So I've done that ever since, and that's all the help I've ever had. I've trained him on my own. My lessons are sometimes weekly, but much more commonly twice a month or less, it just depended on life.

He has earned me my Bronze and Silver and halfway to my Gold. We're currently showing Grand Prix and so far gotten 1% away from a qualifying score. A few years ago we qualified to both the Cow Horse world show and the US Dressage Finals at Intermediare I in the same year -- I'm sure he's the only horse to ever do that. I planned to attend both, too, because I thought that was cool, but he got sick and we ultimately couldn't go.

Suffice to say our dressage success has not been easy, and I would agree it's not likely. I am an amateur on a QH who has never ridden dressage before, training myself and my horse at the same time, with no physical help from professionals, limited access to education, while doing it literally in my backyard, and all in a snaffle.

My success is because I have a horse with an enormous heart. He tries and tries and tries and tries and tries, and even at age 20 greets me at the gate with his ears up, ready to go to work. That is the impossible part, I think, finding that again.

As for my contribution, it's being willing to ride in the pitch black before dawn and before work, in the wind and the rain, sacrificing financially to afford it all, sleeping in my horse trailer at shows, finding a way to make things happen that had to happen, and being willing to get up again when the struggle finally knocked me over, which has happened plenty of times.

You see the glossy pictures of the Olympians on their big glossy Warmbloods in those fancy facilities and think, well, that's certainly not me or my life, and maybe you would be embarrassed by high 50s scores we're earning at GP right now. But I am dang sure proud of what we've done, what we've learned and how we keep progressing, and I sure wouldn't trade my horse for any in the world.

[Ponichiwa]

Thematically, the people who advance in the dressage world are:

- Consistent.
You need to be in the saddle actively working on improving the work regularly. Easy to say "I'll just take a field ride" or "he can have one more day off" or "I'm just going to take it easy this week and get back to it next week when work/family/life settles down"-- I know! I've done that. But when I actually progress it's because I'm literally out in the arena 5+ days/week and really putting the mental work into it. And if you can't be in the arena, try to find some way to keep your horse in work (half-lease, training rides, etc.).

- Planning ahead.
Trainers that have a string of horses they've brought up the levels have the benefit of knowing where they're going, which can be tough to replicate as a one-horse amateur. But what they typically do is ride the horses towards the next level instead of working to perfect the one they're in. They're riding the green horse forward into straightness instead of trying to catch all those green horse wiggly bits as they jiggle around. They're putting halfsteps on the 6yos so that by the time they're 8-9 and ready to start the major collection, it's been introduced already.

I struggle with that with every new horse I get-- very easy to get stuck in ride-the-baby-horse-like-a-baby-horse mode and then wake up a year later with a slightly fitter but no more trained less-baby horse. And that's when you need to be:

- Regularly engaging eyes on the ground.
This can be a trainer (best) or your friends or your non-horsey partner (takes a bit of training, but as any railbird knows it's pretty easy to call out when a halfpass is crooked). Your brain lies to you with regards to your own straightness and what is good enough. External reinforcement that you're on the right path or catching the stuff you've let fall through the cracks is invaluable.

None of that requires a mid-5-figure horse. What you need is a sound horse that accepts training-- the most talented horse I've ever had just doesn't want to play the game and cede control of her balance to me. So we topped out at approx. 3rd level because 4th just demands much more submission.

Meanwhile my little porky QH gelding that I bought for $2k as a "quick flip" (HA!) is trucking along powered entirely by his good nature and unlimited try-hard good-boy-ness, and is knocking on the door of 3rd level after 2 yrs under saddle. I don't know where his ceiling is in this sport, but I'm not going to tell him he has one.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Kelo-thats so awesome!! Honestly I would be thrilled to just be schooling any GP movements!

That's so impressive, for anyone, any horse!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ponichiwa, all excellent points. Thank you. I definitely think I can give it a shot. The situation isn't ideal. But I can manage a lesson twice a month at least, can occasionally participate in clinics, I have a SIL who is a rider who can watch me too. Also my husband got me a pivo to video myself (haven't tried it yet.)

The biggest hurdle is planning ahead and riding what I want for the future. But hopefully the professionals can help steer me there. Also I don't have access to great boarding barns. Where I've been boarding has great care, hay and I big range of hours so I can fit the barn time in. Unfortunately no Dressage trainer (but I can bring one in.) And the indoor arena is small with poor footing. One outdoor arena is decent but the other one is sloped lol. I'm hoping to find somewhere else but hate to have a new horse and find a new barn at the same time.

[Ponichiwa]

Twice a month is perfectly fine for lessons. That's the schedule I had when I took my big guy from 2nd to GP (over the course of years here; I'm definitely not a prodigy no matter what college-me thought at the time).

I've also lived the not-quite-ideal boarding life. If the outdoor arena where you are is big enough, you can get lots of quality work in the flat side and some decent muscle-building done in the sloping bits. Rein-back up a hill: basically horse-squats.

I tend to think that the people who are quoting $40k+ horse prices for your stated goals are either thinking you're wanting to be competitive regionally, or that you want to be schooling flying changes tomorrow. If that's not you, you can certainly find a nice pleasant try-hard horse with 3 decent-but-not-world-beating gaits and either unconventional training (i.e. not-dressage background) or very green dressage training.

It certainly does feel like the horse prices have gone a bit insane. I was flipping through a dressage ponies group on Facebook and someone had posted an ad for a 4th+ horse with major breathing issues, and for $65k. Cute gelding and all, but what??

[exvet]

Twice a month is perfectly fine for lessons. That's the schedule I had when I took my big guy from 2nd to GP (over the course of years here; I'm definitely not a prodigy no matter what college-me thought at the time).

I've also lived the not-quite-ideal boarding life. If the outdoor arena where you are is big enough, you can get lots of quality work in the flat side and some decent muscle-building done in the sloping bits. Rein-back up a hill: basically horse-squats.

I tend to think that the people who are quoting $40k+ horse prices for your stated goals are either thinking you're wanting to be competitive regionally, or that you want to be schooling flying changes tomorrow. If that's not you, you can certainly find a nice pleasant try-hard horse with 3 decent-but-not-world-beating gaits and either unconventional training (i.e. not-dressage background) or very green dressage training.

It certainly does feel like the horse prices have gone a bit insane. I was flipping through a dressage ponies group on Facebook and someone had posted an ad for a 4th+ horse with major breathing issues, and for $65k. Cute gelding and all, but what??

I too was able to manage for years on riding in Clinics once a month and riding out on my 'pasture' making the best of the facilities (limited as they were in the early years) that I had. My focus throughout my riding life has been on conditioning my horses and doing as many exercises/movements out on the trails to take advantage of saddle time. It has definitely paid off in the long run even if there are many people who insist that it can't be done. I also need to make one point 'in juxtaposition' to what ponichiwa mentions. I think you can have every expectation to go to regionals and at least place if not win on a horse whose purchase price is under $50k as long as it's sound, sane and your riding is progressing in a way to carry you both through the levels. It's harder at the lower levels but definitely doable as you move up

As to the prices of horses, I have to confess to a recent incident where I had the door slammed in my face. I really wasn't looking for a prospect to purchase this year but a breeder friend mentioned a yearling that was coming up for sale near her that she felt strongly I needed to purchase. I told her privately that I didn't think I could afford a horse out of that breeding program she was strongly suggesting. She insisted I contact the breeder because (1) she felt that this particular yearling would not be produced properly if it went elsewhere; (2) she reminded me that I used to own and produced a grand dam to this particular guy; and (3) I would likely be an asset to the marketing of this breeder's program. Well that was enough to open the door for me and so I did contact the breeder. She politely responded saying that she knew me well and for that reason knew there was no way I would be willing to pay what the breed and this particular guy (due to color) would bring her. She admitted that he would be a challenge for certain others to bring along and that he wasn't the 'ideal' embodiment of the breed (isn't classic or completely fits the standard of the breed but a sound well conformed gelding); but, to sell to me would actually hurt and discount her pricing overall in the 'public eye'. Now she did counter and offer to breed something for me and give me discounted in utero pricing........LOL.......

For years I received backlash and verbal attacks from dressage divas and welsh breeders because of my insistence that you can reach reasonable riding goals that are more skills based on relatively inexpensive mounts maintaining somewhat of a strict budget. I have been threatened and even turned into USEF (claiming I was a pro not an amateur) by welsh breeders and dressage divas because I refused to maintain the pricing of my young stock at a level that a circle of welsh breeders were and have dictated (it's called price fixing and there is a group that does it). I honestly priced my live stock at what I had in them and sold them to amateurs at lower prices than the same individuals would have been priced at in 'other' programs. I also have discounted certain individuals in order to get them into hands of people that I knew would treat them appropriately (hence Monty being sold for $8500 after earning my silver on him and he went on to earn two more individuals their silver and is still sound today at 22 years). The point is there are gems out there for affordable prices - trick is you must network your butt off to find them.

Even today, I can produce a decent horse for far less than the exorbitant pricing that's being commanded for 'what you get.' Hence my decision to go back to my family roots. There are still Morgans and Quarter Horses that are produced in a way that doesn't sky-rocket the overhead and give justification to the insistence that you can't produce a yearling or two year old for less than 'x'. When you factor some of the marketing, definitely training from outside individuals, facility costs, campaigning etc into your breeding program pricing, that does give some credence to some of today's blown out prices; but, there's a lot of BS built in as well. In those situations once the ribbons, bows and pretty wrapping paper are removed, the result is often an animal that on a per pound pricing basis is all of a sudden equal or often less in value than a good ole joe type with 4 on the floor, sound and sane. For me these are often young horses purchased direct from the breeder who are handled well by the breeder, produced on land that has been owned for a while with well established and long owned breeding stock. It's likely such programs don't spend all their time chasing high point trophies and points for national awards but often they can demonstrate the sale of young stock to people who did successfully do just that. Hence is how I am able to track down and find sound, sane individuals that with a lot of sweat equity of my own initiative prove that they have the ability to carry out the tasks I desire to pursue with my horses. And that's just one path, many others here have found gems through other means and figured out how to make them shine and put a smile on their face. Sure the faster path to fame and fortune (how ever you describe that) is to pony up the cash. I honestly have just never been attracted to or satisfied with that type of agenda........................

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ponichiwa, I think this place could be sufficient for at least the next two years, since I most likely will be buying something greener. I think if we are knocking on the door at 3rd, I think finding better riding areas will be helpful. But I can worry about that later. I'm just so picky about horse care. I boarded at a place with wonderful arenas but they were against turning the horses out. It was a real problem for my young TB and we had to move!

Prices really are insane. I am getting a lot of messages about cute (not world beater types) 3year old Ottbs with minimal rides for $10k. And vices/scars. That to me is very high!

I think there are a few gems out there priced well and in definitely okay being patient. Even if it takes all winter. I at least have horses to ride for now and will take as many lessons as I can.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Exvet, I'm not surprised one bit about the backlash you have faced! I try to surround myself with down to earth riders and trainers but man, there are some wicked personalities out there. The type that certainly help project a Dressage Diva stereotype!

I'm definitely inspired by this thread. I just need to find a very sound, rideable horse that also inspires me. I was really excited about my last TB but unfortunately the soundness wasn't there. But I know a bit if what type I'm looking for as far as mind.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

My budget has been very small like mid 4's for the last ten years of my life. I'm excited about having a slightly bigger budget but that being said, if I can not spend my top dollar then I can afford more lessons, clinics and maybe a "boot camp" of sorts. That interests me more than having something fancy!

[Ryeissa]

Eh, well.... I can't answer this because I'm not third level but my horse is talented enough so I will chime in.
A VERY important part of why I got my horse is he wasn't actually for sale, as in it was a super private sale between trainer clients. That is also how I got my first horse, who also wasn't on the open market. Both were very cheap, price wise under 4K each, but well taken care of and I know the history from foals on both.

Networking finds the best horses, but I also never worked with "sale trainers" or show barns.
He has been super sound and happy for the last 8 yrs and has been a blast. He could do PSG, or so I've been told. So no limit on the horse. His medium trot is lacking but that is ok.

In my case he's a spotted ayrab and SMALL, so most dressage queens don't want that. I did.
I have never had anyone say negative things and he has always scored really well, but I also tend to be quite selective on who I ride with.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Ryeissa, yes I can see networking being vital. I definitely have a lot of ears to the ground but so far nothing has came up that is what I'm looking for. Either they have soundness issues or emotional baggage, I'm not up for either right now! But at some point the stars will align!

How big is your Arab? I'm 5'2" and petite. I used like bigger horses (16.2/16.3) but I'm leaning towards smaller this time around. It just depends on how they ride.

[Tanga]

Kelo I LOVE your pony. THAT is what dressage is about--a QH doing GP. Yeah. You're never going to get the super high scores, but you CAN do all of the movements. Wonderful.

Some thoughts as I read this. I was judging a schooling show full of eventers with a ton of TB's off the track. There were probably 8-10 who I would have bought as FEI horses, they were that amazing. Heidi Gaian (S judge and GP rider) said the same thing about an event she was judging. She imports horses from Jo Hinneman and she saw a whole bunch of horses she would have bought in a shot. There are a TON of really nice horses out there, and the ones of the track can be super cheap. It will take TIME, but there are some really, really nice horses there. And you do have to like the forward of a TB. My friend 30 years ago got a TB stallion off the track and was able to show him to 4th, was a stunning mover, and he eventually ended up in Europe as an improvement stallion--Hand in Glove. She recently just got another TB stallion off of the track and has had him about 6 months. She has an amazing eye--I wold have bought him. He is FEI quality. As a stallion she paid $5k. Her daughter will ride him as she does not any more. https://www.canterusa.org/

And, I have similar stories to some of you in that I didn't trust a lot of trainers. My best training, seriously, was going to a horse camp from about 12-17 where I learned a little of everything. The local people I never took lessons from because they didn't seem that good. Because I wanted to do it from the best, I went to a horse college at 20 so I could know what at least good was like, and did western, HJ, and that boring dressage. I went off to work for Torrance Fleischman, fresh off a gold medal from the '84 Olympics in eventing after that because that's what I thought I wanted. She was crazy and I came home and worked for a H/J trainer. Then I decided I wanted to do dressage, so started organizing clinics with Dennis Callin (from the horse college) who was one of the top GP riders in the country at the time. My main training was clinics with him once or twice a year. I started my Appy at 3rd level. I remember talking to him about doing FEI or something and he said he didn't think my Appy could do it, so I showed him my wonderful two tempi changes. I did random lessons here and there and a few symposiums with Anders Lindgren, but really most of it was by myself. Two lessons a year was good for me. And mostly they were with people who had proven they could do it. I did a lot of things wrong and made many mistakes, but it is what it is.

I think people who are having horses trained for them and regular lessons are at a disadvantage because they don't have to struggle through figuring things out, which is where the real learning is. It seems cooler and more fun, but is it really? Have they really accomplished that much? How many people who do this do you think are real horse people? Do they know how to take care of horses, do other things with them besides just circle arena, or figure out what to do with the daily issues we have with horses?

My older mare, who is 22 and the mother of the Q's, is ridden by two sponsors (what we call leasors.) They are privileged because they can ride a trained horse who can do piaffe. If I run into them, I give them some help, but mostly they're on their own to figure things out. She is great for that because she won't hurt anyone, but she looks and feels like crap when you don't ride her right. If you get her together, she feels great and does any of the work no problem. So they have to spend time figuring it out themselves. I do not constantly watch them, just check ins once in awhile. That's the way I learned. I have a problem, I get feedback on it, figure out what it feels like, and work on it until the next time and get feedback on what that looks like (as with my ext. trot on Quinn and the p/p and ones on Quilla right now.

Lipsmacker, where are you generally? Maybe we can help you keep an eye out for amazing, budget friendly prospects. I know I have banned myself from having more horses, so I could live vicariously.

[Chisamba]

I think the sport of dressage has become a lot more about the fancy horse as time goes by. If your goal is to win at the FEI level, 30K is severely under budget.

However in my experience, if you want to get your bronze and work toward your silver, it can be done on a budget.

My first FEI horses was av gift from my coach, he was a third level lesson horse who was never going to advance , Marjorie had maxed him out, progressed to a more talented horse, so he became my school master. We rode PSG wow well, intermediate, ok. and one Grand Prix test. He was 20 at that time.

Rose was ac trade. one of my junior riders was going to be killed trying to ride her so I traded my safe Arab for her and she taught me a lot about eating time in tremendous talent with zero brain. But we had all the GP moves and managed to show PSG before I decided riding her while pregnant might not be the smartest thing.

Kea, on whom I got my bronze, was my most expensive horse, she was an imported registered Irish draught, bought for eventing. I decided I didn't want to event any more so I did dressage. the only reason I actually got my bronze was because they stayed automatically recording everything and you no longer had to get secretary signatures to register your scores.

Kaira, probably my most horse, was a budget buy , Kimba was a budget buy, Caliburn was a budget but, and Saiph is a super mare, but was a rehab.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, out west in Colorado. Willing to travel though too (although that takes planning and there is COVID.)

I would like to not ship over 1500 miles though.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Chisamba, so true about trying to win at FEI. I'm definitely not trying to do that. I do not have my eyes set much on the show ring at all. I probably will show a little bit. But more for feedback and pushing myself (I suffer terrible performance anxiety.)

I definitely prefer rideable over fancy!

[Rosie B]

I’ll weigh in on this, although I wouldn’t say I’m one who has done the impossible!

My horse Bliss is a well bred Hanoverian that I bought as an unstarted 2 year old. I broke him myself, never having broken a horse before. He’s 10 now and if we were showing we’d be doing a very respectable third and I have no doubt we’ll be at FEI in another year or two.

Prior to Bliss I had ridden for about 20 years, mostly dressage, without getting beyond third level.

Since I bought him, I’ve also had two kids, and it’s taken me much longer than it should have to get where we are now, but I’m ok with that. I’ve learned a few things during the process:
- if you want to make it past second, you have to ride a bare minimum of four times a week, and they all need to be focused working rides. If you can’t ride that much, week after week, month after month, your progress will not be steady and you WILL hit the wall before too long. It doesn’t matter how talented you are, your horse is, the quality of instruction you get, if you can’t commit to riding regularly you aren’t going to get to FEI.
- you need access to regular good quality instruction. How regular is “regular”? Whether it’s once a week or once a month that you need to keep making progress, depends on your experience, your dedication, and your ability to work through problems on your own.
- Regular instruction is NOT enough to get you to FEI if you’ve never been there before. You ALSO need either access to a schoolmaster at that level, or you will need a trainer to bring your horse there for you. Of course there are exceptions to this, but they are in the 1%. The reality is, most adults with real world responsibilities like jobs and kids and paying bills will need this to get to FEI.
- getting a horse to FEI is an enormous time, energy, and money vacuum. If that is your goal, you need to consider whether your lifestyle, relationships, and bank account can support this kind of commitment.
- And even if you answered yes to all these things, it still won’t be easy.

Of course there are plenty of other factors, like your ability, your horse’s ability and soundness, etc etc that influence your outcome. But generally, the people that are successfully getting to the higher levels have all of the above.

[exvet]

Lipsmackerpony - you can count me into that 1%. I rode a true 'schoolmaster' only once in a clinic where my horse was lame and my friend let me borrow her horse who had competed through I-1. My horse was only first level; so you know what we worked on? The basics. No flying changes, no tempis, no pirouettes.............I also went to an adult riding camp where I rode someone's stallion who had competed through third level (long before I got my horse to that level) to simply take lunge lessons; so, again I worked on my seat and the basics, nothing more. As already mentioned I've had no horses in training with a professional trainer for the purpose of training them up the levels. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on this board that is in that 1% designation.

I absolutely agree that having access to a schoolmaster gives one some distinct advantages and would never say no to an opportunity to ride such a horse but I suspect that the percentage of those who've gotten there without access to a schoolmaster, though definitely small, is a wee bit greater than 1%. I also believe that dedication to seeking out and finding every opportunity to educate yourself and to improve your riding, in whatever means that takes place, gives you a much better chance at success. There are programs where you can go ride schoolmasters and get a feel for what it's like at the upper levels both abroad and in the states. I mention it only because I know how challenging it is to find opportunities to ride schoolmasters and know of riders who've done this. My daughter was given the opportunity to ride 'my' self-made schoolmasters and of course she earned her bronze at a young age. Unfortunately she had to give up riding (hopefully it won't be forever) so she has yet to earn her silver. Her journey to earn her bronze and get to third level took a fraction of the time (like 1/10) it took me. Again, I would not trade my experience for anyone else's but I'm just a very hard-headed sort.

[blob]

I agree, Exvet that the percentage must be higher than 1%. I think it is hard to get access to a good school master or even get access to any horse that is confirmed PSG or higher. I certainly don't have access to that, nor will I. I'm CERTAIN it would benefit me and would help me get there faster. But it's not a reality. So, either I will slowly fumble my way up or I'll never make it past third where I'm at now. I guess time will tell...

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Rosie B, thanks for the detailed post! I also have a daughter so I understand how that can impact the journey! She's 9 now and getting more independent but also more into activities! She wants to ride and takes lessons.


I thankfully have a very supportive husband and family in general so typically can get to the barn to ride at least 5 days a week. But usually stop by the barn everyday to do something.

I also thankfully have access to good trainers who will work with people like me and off breeds. Lots of decent clinicians come through too. My lesson schedule is more limited this year because of COVID19. My daughter is online school.

I thankfully have always gotten awesome access to a types of horses, including schoolmasters. I'm not sure how I get so lucky but opportunity sometimes just comes my way (also bad luck like losing young horses.) I was able to ride a trainer's 4th level, schooling PSG horse for a year. She was hot and tad emotional at times, but fun. It was more on my own and only some lessons though, so it was a lot of feeling my way on my own with occasional instruction. Besides that, I was able to ride two other 3rd level horses for people. And taken many lessons on really cute second level school horses. I have not been able to ride anything FEI confirmed though.

Honestly I've schooled all of second and a good bit if third, including FC on a few horses. I certainly have A TON to work on but I do feel like I have an idea about where we are going with all these basics. My goal is only 3rd level. I don't care to be competitive, especially right now as a mother. I just really want to grow as a rider. I totally expect to have more hands on trainer help later on (flying changes) or when needed. But I definitely can't afford constant training.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I see it as a "you never know until you try" kind of things.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I actually had someone approach me about leasing their 4th level horse so I can get my bronze. I feel it's nearly dumb to not do this, but after deep thought, I'm passing this time. I am so passionate about Dressage and progression but in the end I'm here because I love having a deep partnership with my horse. I've been through a lot of heartache. It would be smart to lease. But the heart wants what it wants. I love being a horse owner. I love riding horses for people too but there is nothing like having your own partner to walk the path with. To me the goals and bond go hand in hand.

Maybe one day I'll wake up and think more wisely lol!!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I agree, Exvet that the percentage must be higher than 1%. I think it is hard to get access to a good school master or even get access to any horse that is confirmed PSG or higher. I certainly don't have access to that, nor will I. I'm CERTAIN it would benefit me and would help me get there faster. But it's not a reality. So, either I will slowly fumble my way up or I'll never make it past third where I'm at now. I guess time will tell...

Blob, I have no doubt you will make it past Third! Obviously I'm a nobody but I find it rediculous that you even doubt it. You are a great rider from what I've seen!!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I'm aware that I have a lot to go up against here.

Lack of talent/skill.
Lack of money.
Probably will be on an off breed that wasn't bred for Dressage.
Not in a full training program.
Some physical challenges.
Taking it too seriously/overthinking.
Not sure I believe that I can do it.

But I also know that if you don't try, then you certainly won't do it. To try sometimes I need to at least pretend that I think I can do this.

I have a super supportive family. My husband bust his butt to give me any and all opportunities. I pay for my horse activities but he works so that I can do that. And he has paid vet bills, lesson fees, whatever to help. He encourages me to ride and take every opportunity I can. He's helped me through my lowest times.

My sister in law rides and is letting me ride her horse occasionally. She is always willing to video me when she is there.

My parents, who live 20 minutes from me, still drive out to go horse shopping with me, have paid for clinic rides, pushed me to introduce myself to trainer's I normally wouldn't approach.

I have so many friends that are letting me have rides on their horses, invite me to clinics (even while I'm horseless.)

I read as much as I can. I work out as much as I can. I audit clinics as much as possible (or ride but that's not always possible.) My mom and I flew to another state once for a symposium that I wanted to audit.

I know not everything points to success. But I can't not try. I have way too much support to not just do the best I can. Maybe I'll just be a really great 2nd level rider! But that's okay!

[exvet]

My current ride (though I did go solo on Brandon today, yay!) is a 6 year old welsh cob gelding named Annwylid Dare to Dream. He is named that for the specific quest, dream, outlandish idea that I have to someday earn my gold. You are no different, just younger and earlier in your journey. Good luck. You certainly have demonstrated at least in posts that you have the drive and determination to get you there. You just have to make it happen. When one path gets blocked, find another.

[Flight]

Lipsmackerpony you've got lots of good stuff to get there. I'm sure you will and it's such good fun learning along the way