Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

[Moutaineer]

So, who is this unicorn that I seek?

I'll know it when I find it, I guess.

I've been highly spoiled in my two horses over the past 15 years. Walker was just what I needed to start playing around with this dressage stuff, and was/is also just a game allrounder. He was never going to go to the Olympics but he was and still is a safe a solid partner. He's 25 next month and has a leaser who adores him.

Laddie, I've had for six years. He's a very fancy, very large Oldenburg who came to me through strange circumstances--way above my paygrade and has taught me a lot, both about riding and about patience and problem solving. He's a sweetheart, but quite hot and had some considerable baggage to unpack. He's got to the point where he's reached his limits and he doesn't need pushing any further.

So, now I look towards the next partner. Not something I expected to do for three or four years, but life has it's little turns.

The decision now is different for the decision that it would be in a few years time--I had my little plan that I would at that point look for something more like Walker--a general purpose partner who I could go down the trail with, dabble in some dressage, and keep in a local field.

But I realize that given the opportunity, I'm not quite ready for that yet, and I'd like to explore dressage more seriously for a few more years.

My dear husband surprised me over the Holidays with the statement out of the blue that "he'd been thinking about it, and I should just go out and buy myself a nice horse."

So, here I am!

My budget is $30K max. Which should be enough, one would think, but prices are quite high at the moment.

What I'm looking for:

Sane. No bucking, rearing bolting, excessive spooking. Doesn't have to be an automaton, but I do need to feel safe.

Not a youngster--I'm just about to turn 60 and am not particularly brave, I don't need baby histrionics and I don't want to handle all those first experiences.

Not too old--There's a limit to the number of retirees I can support at one time. So 10ish to 14ish with wiggle room for perfect.

Functionally sound. I don't mind maintenance hock injections, that kind of thing, but I don't want to be nursing chronic problems. I'm not bothered about blemishes, recovered injuries, etc., I've have a broader tolerance than many on what I find acceptable to take a chance on, but I do have my limits!

Must have flying changes installed. I do not wish for this to stall me out one more time. My suspicion is that this is why many second level horses get sold.

Must load easily onto a trailer and be easy to handle away from home as well as at home.

Mare or gelding.

Between 16 and 17 hands. I'm 5' 7" and have a long torso.

I'm not mad about Iberians or Friesians, but having said that, I used to ride a Lusitano who was a sweetheart, so I'm not completely ruling them out.

I live in Utah. There is nothing here that I feel the need to buy. I probably need to stay over to the Western half of the country because Covid, so Idaho, Arizona, Colorado, California, Washington, Oregon.



I have one currently sort of on the horizon, as I mentioned in the goals thread. He's 16'2, Warmblood, 15y.o., showed ZZL (4th ish) in NL, and 1m20 jumpers, came here as a H/J, was campaigned for a while and did quite well, sustained a classic H/J front suspensory tear, had a complete rehab, ended up with yet more time of because H/J owner had a bad fall of another horse, and was finally turned over to a dressage trainer to retrain and sell on last spring as his owners didn't think they could sell him as a jumper and he did have that fancy dressage background.

He's stayed sound, but she admits she tried to push an unfit horse to do upper level work too soon, because the owners wanted that value out of him, and he got really pissy about it, but he's obviously pretty comfortable doing 3rd level stuff--he went to a show in September and got a score of 66% at 3.3. Now, the following day, he got a 57% at 3.3, so I'd like to find out what happened there.

He doesn't look it on the videos I have seen, but I suspect he is a bit behind the leg.

He has an occasional spook in him, but I'm told he's too lazy to take it far.

Obviously he'd need vetting up the whazoo, take that as read.

(I should say that this horse is in a barn where a dear friend of mine boards, and I've met the trainer, so I do trust that the information I am getting is fairly straightforward, though there are always lines to read between. However, my friend is a timid rider and won't try him out for me, but that's fair enough.)

[blob]

ready to start window shopping!

one question: how do you feel about a horse who is a bit of a push ride? Sounds like you're ok with a bit lazy, but just want to doubl echeck!

[StraightForward]

I will keep an ear out since I'm just a state away!

[Josette]

This location is wrong but is this the type that would appeal to you? He has changes.

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/dorchis

[khall]

Josette that’s a nice horse. About 3 hours from me. This trainer sells a bunch of horses

[Josette]

khall - if he were significantly smaller I would be serious for him myself.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Since I'm in Colorado, I'll keep my eye out! Your budget is much better than mine (but your requirements are much more specific.) I'm sure you can find something! I look at ads a lot so I will keep you in mind when looking!

[Moutaineer]

I was sure I posted a response to this yesterday! Must have forgotten to hit send!

Blob, I'd be cool with that if it were laid back attitude rather than sullen an shut down. I certainly don't need a hot tamale, I find that exhausting!

Josette, yes, nice horse! Too far away at the moment though.

Thanks, Lipsmacker. The pickings there seem remarkably thin at the moment, though. But something could well pop up!

I'll feel more comfortable about traveling to look at things once my husband is vaccinated. He should, supposedly, be given an appointment this week, but it will probably be three or four weeks out.

She who was going to ride the horse in AZ for me has had to cancel her trip, so I'm not sure what to do there. Wait it out and probably lose it, I guess. It's such a Hotspot down there at the moment I don't see taking the risk for a few weeks.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Mountaineer, yeah it's so hard. Slim pickings, high pricing and potentially traveling into COVID hotspots definitely make it more difficult. I hope it gets easier as time goes on. Or that something pops up near you!

[demi]

Cadenceranch.net

This is my trainer. The horse Freshman, aka “otter” is only 6 but he has a stellar temperament. One thing, may be big to some people but not to me since I know him, his blind in one eye. Not spooky at all. Trainer breeds and trains her own horses and they get exceptional trainier from the start. They live 24/7 in large pastures with run-in shelters. They get plenty of cross training on her big ranch, from trails to jumping. I think Christine’s forte is training and breeding (as opposed to teaching riders).

I love Otter. He’s big, maybe 17hh?, and a beautiful mover, great cadence. But most of all, he’s a sweetheart. I’ve watched several of her home breds over the last 3 years, and Otter is one I’d choose for myself if I was looking and if he was only 15hh. He’s listed at 20K but she doesn’t update her website very often. I think she has shown him already. He’s dresssage training I would call exemplary. Christine has trained him from the beginning.

[Ryeissa]

Too far to be of any real use, but best of luck

[demi]

I just rechecked cadenceranch.net and Otter is only 5 and I don’t know if he has a single fc, but his training, breeding, natural ability, etc, suggest that fc’s wont be a problem. He isn’t an average 5 yr old and has had quite a bit of exposure. There is a video of him at 2 freelunging in a round pen (20m diameter) and you can see his natural cadence. There is another vid on youtube of him at 30 days under saddle. The rider is one Christine’s former assistants, a good event rider and a really good horse handler. Which I mention because I think early handling of young horses can have a big affect on them. The ranch is so big that when horses come in from pasture to work, they bring 2-4 in at a time. Sometimes they’ll just hop on one bareback with a halter and lead and pony the others in. Sometimes, they’ll use a golf cart and lead 2-4 from the cart.

Christine has ridden Otter in some of my lessons with Rocky. Sometimes she’d get a little close to show me something and Rocky would lay her ears back and threaten Otter. He was so wonderful about it I would have sworn he was a much older horse.

CR has other dressage horses for sale and the one that I first though about for you is Sonata Song. She might be perfect but she was listed at 35K and I would bet that she is much higher now.

Oh and for what it’s worth, Rocky was 3 when I got her and I was 57. I couldn’t have done a 3 yr old at that age if it didnt have and excellent temperament.

[Moutaineer]

Demi, lovely looking horses, but crap, that is the worst website to try and work out what the heck she has for sale! Otter is obviously a nice horse, but I think he's probably not for me at this point in my life, but thank you so much. Sonata Song is lovely. I think I've seen her somewhere else and yes, she was somewhat out of my price range.

Real babies are not for me. A barn mate (who is tall, young, and an excellent though not exceptionally brave rider) has just bought a 5 year old warmblood who is already about 17.3 from Nadine Schwartzman in Idaho. He's really sweet, super mover, still trying to work out where his feet are and still growing. I watch his "baby moments" which are not malicious at all, and feel slightly nauseous!

[blob]

I think having a trained flying change and 'changes won't be a problem' are wildly different. Every trainer/clinician I've worked with has told me MM will have great and natural changes. Well, here I am struggling to get a clean change with her. I'm willing to admit i'm likely the problem, but maybe anyone would be struggline, i don't know. Wanting a horse with a change is not just about ability it's also about not wanting to go through the hassle of trying to train one

[blob]

A nice one in idaho--no showing experience at third. but changes look nice in video:
https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/jameson-3


Probably too old for what you want, but wanted to share as he's quite nice!
https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/winston-wes

Probably too far in virginia, but worth showing:
https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/geronimo

[Moutaineer]

Yes, Blob, that is exactly it. Everyone told me it would be a snap to put changes on Laddie--not so much! And I've reached the "life is too short" stage!

Jameson is a really lovely horse and I was quite excited when I saw him. On further enquiry, there was a dealbreaker for me, unfortunately.


Winston--yes, I've looked hard at that ad, He looks like a doll, but pushing it rather on the age front.

I do like Geronimo. He's another prime example of "making compromises/taking chances to get what you want within the price range." I wish he weren't quite so far away, but I I may well make further inquiries about him. I think he might be too much of a hottie for me.

[goldhorse]

I'm seeing more people move to Facebook pages to advertise horses. Are you aware of this group?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/903506719785134
(Dressage Horses-West Coast Only)

[demi]

Yes, Blob, that is exactly it. Everyone told me it would be a snap to put changes on Laddie--not so much! And I've reached the "life is too short" stage!

Jameson is a really lovely horse and I was quite excited when I saw him. On further enquiry, there was a dealbreaker for me, unfortunately.


Winston--yes, I've looked hard at that ad, He looks like a doll, but pushing it rather on the age front.

I do like Geronimo. He's another prime example of "making compromises/taking chances to get what you want within the price range." I wish he weren't quite so far away, but I I may well make further inquiries about him. I think he might be too much of a hottie for me.

It’s easy for people to say “ changes will be a snap for this or that horse”. If the person saying that is trainer, or clinician and have maybe even never ridden the horse, I would take that kind of comment with a grain of salt. On the other hand, if a trainer has many years of experience with a particular family of horses that they’ve bred, trained and ridden extensively, I would consider it carefully.

But another problem that enters into it, is whether they are telling the truth or not. I bought a 13 yr old horse that had been trained to 4th/PSG. I saw her 3 time changes on vid, and with the pro trainer. But seller (who lived in another state) and trainer both said the horse had started refusing to change. Trainer said the problem was in the back, owner said it was in the hocks, I thought it was because she was seriously out of condition and all four hoof angles were terribly broken back, with very long toes. And the vet couldn’t find any problem at all. The owner and trainer both said she never did anything unsafe, but she just refused. Owner continually said she was safe for any rider, trainer wasn’t as adamant about how safe she was. The mare was offered at a very low price for her level of training, and I gambled and offered half of what they were asking. Owner countered in between and I bought her.

Over 5 years later I still have the mare and it remains to be seen if I can ever use her to learn changes on. I know for sure she isn’t safe for any rider. I havent totally given up but I am ALWAYS reminded that buying a horse is a gamble.

And I loved the horse “Winston” from the ad. His age wouldn’t be a problem for me but I’m older than Mountaineer so I understand her reluctance. Still, after watching the vids, I am thinking that he may be a tricky horse for an amateur. He looks like he may be hot even at that age. He’s behind the vertical a lot and I wonder if that’s for control. Just thinking.

[piedmontfields]

UB40 horses are not my type, but otherwise Geronimo is interesting and a good example of the compromises one might encounter.

FWIW, from my POV in the east/south:

In that price range you find a 10-14 yr old horse who is "tapped out" at 3rd level from a competitive point of view (but can school more than 3rd--but is not going to be an FEI horse). Horses with good changes that look capable of going to FEI levels will often be out of your price range.

Former jumpers can be a good match, as they often have solid changes and excellent canters.

Eventing horses can offer value (lots of nice event horses would rather not go on to the upper eventing levels but have some good dressage basics)---however, not all event trainers know a good change when they see it

[piedmontfields]

I meant to add that ~9 years ago when I was shopping, I had a similar budget. It was a bit low for what I actually thought I wanted--which was slightly younger and less experienced than Moutaineer's wish list--like a good 1st level schooling 2nd sort. I found a lot of nicely made horses with issues which made them not so amateur friendly (the clue was often that only the trainer rode them--never the owner) or horses without much training. I ended up with an "off-breed" inexpensive horse who had big gaps in training but who was very willing to learn!

This one in Wellington FL is older (18), but nice:
https://horsesdaily.com/market/horse-ma ... al-partner

[Moutaineer]

Piedmont, I guess, the "tapped out" at 3rd/4th is exactly what I'm looking for I have neither the desire nor the money to go FEI, more than maybe a local PSG class. Third and fourth could probably keep me very busy for the next 5 years.

The travel thing is a big limiting factor at the moment--it would be hard to get further way from here than Florida, so I'm not looking at Florida horses at all. That's a cute horse though, but I do have a resistance to purchasing a horse that was born the same year as the one I'm retiring!

The one that's still at the top of my (rather short) list is an ex jumper, and the changes seem to be just one of the things he does, rather than a big deal.

I'm also not averse to something a bit younger, without the experience, but it must have a flying change well started, so it can prove to me that it doesn't have a mental or physical block about them.

Oh well, I will see my trainer at the barn tomorrow and will have further conversation with her. She and I have both been sick for the past week, so I haven't been bugging her.

[blob]

I had shared this mare with Lipsmacker earlier. But I really like her and she's a hell of a bargain, I think. Sounds like she toes in, but i don't mind toeing in unless it hurts movement, which it doesn't seem to. The description mentions her natural change (she's a hunter/jumper prospect), but the video doesn't show it. She is obviously dressage green, but she seems quite sensible. I think she'd be worth asking about and worth asking to see that change:
https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/sf-lady-luck


Jumper/eventer mare. Description implies she might be a bit more a hot head than you'd like. But she looks nice and the jumping video shows a few clean changes, though unclear if they're auto or if aided: https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/eva-lucia-lucy

says this one is schooling all third level movements. I didn't find changes in the video, but I skipped around some. Looks like she has some holes in her training and def isn't fully third level. But looks like an honest ride with nice movement. If you can get a video with a change and it's clean, she could be worth looking into: https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/starlette

[blob]

A few with no videos, but could be worth asking about:
description says started on changes: https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/royal-belle
3rd level dressage: https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/sunshine-2
hunter/jumper mare with easy changes it says, no clue if they're clean.: https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/lillie

[blob]

one more without video, i'm only allowed to share 3 links per post apparently!

hunter/jumper mare: https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/queen-hearts-0

[Moutaineer]

Blob, Royal Belle and Starlette both piqued my interest--neither owner is responding to inquiries, however, so what's a girl to do?

I like Royal Belle a lot conformationally. She's a very appealing looking mare and her scores are really good at the lower levels. I guess I need to rattle her owner's cage again and try and get video.

Starlette is driving distance, which is always a plus but yes, I'd say she needs some work. She's been on that site for a while now, and the no response leads me to believe that she has gone.

Sunshine is really rather cute looking and obviously much loved. I'm going to contact for video and see what she looks like moving.

You do have to check when the ad was posted on warmblood-sales, as people don't seem to be good at updating when they have sold, There are quite a few on there that I've gone "oooh" about, but when I've gone looking around, they show up as sold elsewhere.

[Moutaineer]

OK, what do we think about this one?

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/sugar-spice

No USDF Show record that I can find, but watch the video--I think she looks like she might be quite good fun.

[demi]

I want her!!!

[khall]

Mountaineer I have a bay mare very much like this mare. My mare is a fun ride. Easy to sit as well. This pinto mare looks like she struggles with engagement coiling the hind though. Not my favorite. Not sure how much more she could do than what she is now. So I guess it depends on what exactly you want to do.

[blob]

OK, what do we think about this one?

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/sugar-spice

No USDF Show record that I can find, but watch the video--I think she looks like she might be quite good fun.

I almost sent this one to you, but didn't after watching the video and seeing that all of her changes are late behind. Within the stride, but late behind. That's what MM does and I can tell you right now that the judges give those 4s and they are proving very hard to fix.

[demi]

I was wondering about the paint mare, and thought the changes looked funny because the canter looked like it was being held back. I didnt think it was a good third level collected canter. Which is understandable because she was an event horse now retraining as a dressage horse. I was wondering what her changes would look a lot better if she cantered out a little more.

Several of the horses that have been posted on this thread have been quite behind the vertical with the poll definitely not the highest point. I would think that would be hard to re-train, and maybe those horses would have health/soundness issues because of being ridden that way. But the paint mare was mostly a little in front of the vertical with her poll the highest point, and her neck was reaching and I thought very nice, especially in the still photos.

[Ryeissa]

I like the pinto mare- there is a nice feeling with the picture. Looks free in the body. Not ridden uphill, no, but seems like she could if ridden more as packaged. I prefer this nice horizontal freedom to a horse that is too Btv because of collection too soon.

[Moutaineer]

Yes, 5he pinto mare has some pluses and minuses. She has only been with a dressage trainer for about 3 months and she's only had one teenaged owner before, which explains a lot of what we are seeing. She got overfaced and started stopping cross country, which is why she is being converted to dressage. I also think she's a lot of money for what she is. (and they've dropped her price from an original 35k) Trainer is obviously just having so much fun with her and loves her attitude, though (I spoke to her last night.)

Ok, another one for your critique.

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/bivemmo

I know a lot about this horse, but I'd like some "cold" opinions.

[Ryeissa]

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/bivemmo

I know a lot about this horse, but I'd like some "cold" opinions.

Not a fan of the hip/pelvis- too out behind and built croup high
Looks like fun ride overall. Nice forward energy, seems to have a good work ethic.
One of the huge advantages of a WB is a better set hip/pelvis- if I was willing to work with this I could get a much better value in a well bred NSH which tends to have this same hip/back connection.
I have seen this type of hip/loin be more prone to stifle, psoas and hock tension in my clients. Its definitely not a deal breaker but really depends on the horse overall.
this would be a lovely hunter type horse.

[khall]

Mountaineer I like the black horse. He looks like he could be a fun ride and one to do well with.

[Josette]

Another vote here for this horse in AZ. I see a horse with comfortable gaits schooling the movements very well and ridden in a snaffle. I like that the horse is not curled or BV like some which is an UN-training issue IMO. This WB seems to click all your check boxes. As an older rider, I always check for the temperament description because safety is high priority besides the training level. He is on your side of the country - plus within your budget. He is familiar with the show scene even if it was hunters. Nice horse IMO.

edited to add - it will be about what you know about this horse and passing a PPE.

[blob]

I like the black gelding a lot more than the paint. He looks like he is doing his work well and has clean changes. Not everything is perfect, of course, but I think he would def be worth going to sit on and try if you haven't already.

I do disagree with Demi that a horse that has been ridden BTV is hard to fix/change. I think this is one of the easier things to re-train. It's not fast, because it requires new muscle memory and building strength. But I have done it several times and seen it done many more times. So, that would worry me in terms of what it might have done to the body, but not what it has done to the training.

[Moutaineer]

Well, of course, I call to set up an appointment to see the black horse, and there's someone lined up to see him on Saturday...

[khall]

Well darn maybe it’s not a match

[Kyra's Mom]

I have to agree w/Rye on the black horse (Bivemmo). I was expecting to see a horse with a much different carriage for 4th level. He was very horizontal... more 1st level carriage. He wasn't lifting thru the sternum much at all and does trail the hind legs more that I would like to see at this stage. I didn't see spic and span clean changes. I saw him just a hair late behind several times. However, he can poop and pirouette at the same time:D He looks heavy in the connection to me. The rider is covering it up but has low and anchored hands a good bit of the time. Heavy in the hand is one thing I can't deal with anymore...too much old age and arthritis and CTS in my hands. My perception might be all wrong but the lips are parted almost all the time. That might just be the way the horse concentrates??

Yes I am nit-picking but I was expecting an entirely different carriage. He is very handsome. Love his big moose nose. He can do all the movements and if he has a good work ethic and the right personality, the things mentioned above probably don't matter at all as we know that having a good mind and work ethic is worth a lot.

Are you on a list to try him if nothing comes of the trial on Saturday?

Susan

[piedmontfields]

Kyra's Mom, your comments validate what I saw in this very pretty black gelding. Some changes were late, but it could have been rider error.

Due to conformation, I questioned how much this horse would or could "sit" even for true 3rd level work. He does look very pleasant, though. Certainly worth a look---but if you try him, I would be interested in what you thought about his ability to rotate his pelvis and weight his hind--even in simple trot-halt transitions.

[khall]

For one he’s 15 I think? And did hunters. I see a horse (the black WB) easily schooling 3/4 even some psg movements (half CP to CC and change). Could he be stronger behind? Yes and I saw the rider asking for some half steps which is exactly what he needs. He looks like an honest horse with a good basis and fun to ride. I could not determine how he would be in the bridle but I certainly would not kick him out of the barn. I do think $30,000 is a bit high for his age but what do I know

[redsoxluvr]

Mountaineer Amanda Barr Olson has some nice horses right now. She is in Washington state. Good luck!

[Moutaineer]

The black horse--the videos were taken after he'd back in dressage training for 4 months, after a year as a hunter jumper and 18 months off, rehabbing from a minor front suspensory tear and then getting caught up in some "life happens" stuff. So, I'd not necessarily expect him to be showing a very strong hind end at that point. Now, 6 months later, I'd be interested to see how much he's developed. Anyway, I suspect that will be academic as this person going to see him this weekend has apparently been interested for some time, but couldn't afford him at his earlier advertised price. Maybe she won't click, though. You never know. What is meant to be, will be.

So, onwards and upwards... and now for something completely different. I know what I said earlier, but this PRE looks like my kind of guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3x6nRQxxiA&t=3s

[Josette]

I like him more than the previous black horse. I bet he is so comfortable to ride and why the Pre are so popular with riders.

[Srhorselady]

Jossette took the words out of my mouth! I much prefer this video to the black gelding!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Love the PRE! What a cutie.

[khall]

While I like the horse I do not like how he is ridden. I prefer how the black horse is ridden.

[demi]

Another vote for the PRE. And I agree that he does look comfortable. I thought he was being ridden nicely, and he looked light in the hands and seemed responsive to a light seat. He was a good boy around that skid loader and I love his foxy little ears!!!

[heddylamar]

The PRE is really a handsome mover. I'd go look at him for a dressage horse.

[Josette]

Looks like he just got added here. The temperament is listed as 7 - so he is the sensitive type. It may be my eyes but I believe the rider is not wearing spurs and certainly no whip.

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/duque