Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

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Lipsmackerpony88
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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:12 am

Mountaineer, can you see if they can haul him to an indoor or another barn for a third ride? I'd want to see/ride him off property to make sure this behavior wasn't intensed away from home past the scope that I felt I could handle it. Or would they do a paid lease/trial?

If you think this behavior will frustrate you, walk away. If you think the journey of trying to figure him out/boost his confidence is enjoyable and worth while, then maybe proceed after another ride.

Josette's post was spot on. It comes down to what you want out of this partnership I think.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby khall » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:09 am

Mountaineer he sounds interesting. I do think they can get better. A friend of mine took her pretty spooky Arab X and through all she has done with him made him much more manageable. To the point she did a police horse training course with the floppy inflatable to fire rings

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Imperini » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:54 am

Curious if it could have been the wind these last couple of days that made him more reactive and on the lookout for spooky things than normal? Even my Pal, who is normally a very solid horse, gets a bit silly and spooky when it gets windy here. Which is quite often unfortunately but could be something to consider or talk to the seller about if you haven't already?

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:07 am

He's still in contention. I've been watching the videos of my riding with less emotion and exhaustion and a clearer eye. I really like his way of going (when all 4 feet are where they are meant to be) and his training is really very correct, and I like his size and age. He's certainly a sensitive little flower who needs handling with greater finesse than I showed him, but that might be down to me rather than him and might not be such a bad thing for me to learn--Walker and Laddie are not what you'd describe as nuanced rides, and somewhat forgiving of my occasionally heavy handedness... Maybe its something I need to learn.

I also think he's been used as a means to a medal-earning end rather than anyone trying to get inside his head and develop a relationship with him. I'm not sure he's ever had a private non-pro trainer owner who has floofed with him and fed him carrots and fussed over him.


I've sent an email to his last but one owner (another pro) who did most of his training to see if she'll talk to me about him. I need to know if he can handle an indoor arena--that's key and a deal breaker and not something I'd thought about really, before --and to see what she has to say about the spook. She has no axe to grind at this point so I should be able to get straight answers.

Lipsmacker, my barn manager suggested asking about a trial/lease. Depending on what answers I get from the above, it might be worth asking about. I'm kind of done on trial rides--he's 600 miles away.

(My barn manager watched my video of the drama event and said I should have seen it coming and it was pretty much my fault--never one to mince her words! My actual trainer has had to go rushing off to see her sick mother so I haven't been able to get her feedback yet.)

I'd forgotten you were in LV, Imperini! The wind was crazy, but I'm not sure that was the whole issue--new foal on the property might not have helped though.

Can I make any more excuses for him, do you think?

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby khall » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:36 pm

Oh a new foal makes even the most sensible horse nuts! Hope his previous owner will talk with you. Personally for me I like riding the more sensitive type that encourages me to be a better rider more nuanced. Which is what Joplin does. It’s rubbing off when I ride Rip

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby demi » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:02 pm

Moutaineer wrote:
I also think he's been used as a means to a medal-earning end rather than anyone trying to get inside his head and develop a relationship with him. I'm not sure he's ever had a private non-pro trainer owner who has floofed with him and fed him carrots and fussed over him.



I thought this, too. But I will add that I deeply think that Arabs do not give over their trust easily. I rode for a local horse trader/ trainer from the time I was 13 till I went off to college and Arabs were very popular at that time. I rode a lot of Arabs from a lot of different situations. We got Arabs from breeders, from the auction, from amateur owners, from professional trainers (my trader/trainer was a talented trainer and a lot of pros turned to her when they needed help). I came to think I was quite good at riding spooks. In fact, my best horse ever, a half Arab/QH was given to me by that trainer and his name was Spooky.

Ok, so I am just telling all the above because I want to be clear about why I think that 1) you may be right about developing a relationship, and 2) why
I deeply think that Arabs/crosses don’t give their trust easily. I think it can be done but only on their terms and with great patience. I gambled on Emma a half Arab WB cross and wrote about her on this board. She was trained to PSG, had a very limited show record, and there were several reasons why she ended up being on the market. I have learned a lot from her. I wish I had been at least 10 years younger when I found her. She is a project. A real long project. I didn’t find my trainer till a couple years after I got Emma and I think her rehab might have gone much better if I had had a good trainer to help. But Arabs need really good, understanding trainers. Not just any good trainer, either. No matter how good they are, they must really understand Arabs to be helpful.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby piedmontfields » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:21 pm

The ArabxHan sounds interesting. It will be helpful to get your trainer's feedback and to discuss how you'd work with him.

One comment I will make since you mentioned inconsistencies showing up at 3rd+ and the foot issues: pain in the horse's body can express itself with increased reactivity and spookiness--even as they try very hard to do their job. Is the job you want this horse to do a good match for their current body? That's a discussion to have with your vets/trainer, too.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby blob » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:45 pm

It sounds like a situation that can be improved--both his spooking and your preparedness for it. But I do think it's worth thinking about what the bigger priority is. Sounds like this one would be good for learning upper level stuff. But he may not be the right horse if you want a partner you can just hop on and do whatever, whenever. Also worth thinking about showing with a looky horse. Will that make showing too stressful?

I'm actually not trying to talk you out of him because I think he could be a great partner depending on the priority.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:16 pm

I don't know....neither of my arabs are/were spooky and if the horse is that challenging something seems off

I say it's like a date/marriage- if you don't like the horse on the test ride then it's hard because there is no guarantee on any improvemnets.

My horse is better the more he works, if they get worse that is a red flag. JMHO

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Josette » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:47 pm

Mountaineer - I apologize for my comments as they were not tactful or helpful. It was wrong to compare my guy's trust spook issues from bad training and possibly aggressive handling. I'm dealing with different type of mental issues. (My guy is still fearful of any new person (ex: vet assistant) coming into the barn and I'll never know why.)

That said - if this horse has the solid correct training you describe then he may have been unsure of a new person/rider. These sensitive types as described do take more time to trust and bond with their person.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Chisamba » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:59 pm

having ridden many many and Arab and Arab x , they can be spooky, but in my experience the more comfortable they become with the work and the rider the calmer they become. they also learn to trust the aids and contact. of course not all horses act the same.

If the spook irritated you, they can feed off of it and get worse.

I suppose we are all chipping in our opinion here but your head and heart are what counts

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby StraightForward » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:28 pm

blob wrote:It sounds like a situation that can be improved--both his spooking and your preparedness for it. But I do think it's worth thinking about what the bigger priority is. Sounds like this one would be good for learning upper level stuff. But he may not be the right horse if you want a partner you can just hop on and do whatever, whenever. Also worth thinking about showing with a looky horse. Will that make showing too stressful?

I'm actually not trying to talk you out of him because I think he could be a great partner depending on the priority.


I agree with this. It sounds like he could be great if you are more focused on learning the FEI work, and not necessarily showing. However, it would be frustrating if you do want to show, and he doesn't come around to it. Annabelle has started spooking more when she's working; I think she just gets so focused that she doesn't see things until they're up close (usually a person walking just outside the arena) then all of a sudden she startles. Will she outgrow it? I don't know. But she is kind of nutty off property, and the thought of working her through all that to make her a reliable show horse is not something I would want to undertake. With this horse having been with pros for so long and still having issues, it doesn't sound like getting him reliable for showing would be a sure thing, and I guess it depends on how you would feel about that.
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby tlkidding » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:36 pm

I'd ask frankly what is up with the inconsistent scores. And I'd also look for pain - if it's at a certain level of work it could be hind end (hocks, suspensories, etc.) due to the increased collection or neck/back due to the change in posture required.

I have a spooky horse but he's generally better away from home where everything is new and different. He's alert and looking around at a new place, but not spooking all that much. At home, he's the worst when he's alone in the indoor - spooking at the stupid muck bucket that's always in the same corner or at the birds in the arena. He's better with company in the indoor and the best in the outdoor but still spooks at the corner where the jumps/poles are.

I also believe a component of my horse's spooking is due to discomfort - he probably had some knee arthritis for a while before we eventually found it. I know now when he's extra sore or something else is bothering him if he's ramped up to spooking at his own reflection in the windows, etc.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:46 pm

I just remembered that a Schoolmaster that I rode extensively a few years ago was part Arab although mostly WB. I thought she was fun, sensitive, forward type but she could be spooky. It didn't bother me, but her owner (my trainer) found it frustrating as her goals were showing based vs me, just wanting to learn. She did have terrible feet and I think that contributed. She was older though, 17. The owner ended up seller her as a lower level dressage school master (the work at PSG just wasn't happening with her anymore.) She was really fun to ride at home but I know she got really hot at shows. But for someone just wanting to learn at home she was a great horse.

This guy actually sounds much nicer than her but it did remind me a bit of her.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Sue B » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:07 pm

Go with your gut. When I was vaguely horse shopping, I turned your Laddie down, but you have done very well with him, so go with your instincts, they're good.

For me, the stopping point would be bad feet but only because Tio drives me nuts with his. I find it a major pain in the butt to have to always be worrying about getting the shoer out in a timely fashion and all.

In my experience, Arabs are a lot like TB's. Once they decide to partner up with you, they'll turn themselves inside out to not let you down. My Rudy, the first time he walked into an indoor (Idaho Horse Center no less) with the jumbotron flashing, speakers blaring and kids running up and down the bleachers, his eyes nearly popped out of his head. Nonetheless, he went right to work, and while he was a little tense in the show ring, he focused on me and only came mildly unglued once the ride was done and we had abled out of the ring. For my part, I had to concentrate on being happy and relaxed (yeah right) and make my riding as close as possible to how I ride at home so that he would know that I had every confidence in him. Tio, otoh, is not really a sensitive guy and doesn't really depend that much on me to show him the way. That, in and of itself, has good and bad consequences. It all just depends on your personal style preferences.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:27 pm

Going back and looking at his show record, I think I've been a little unfair--in his first home, where he was until 2018, he did really rather well with the odd exception (and we've all had those--actually my exceptions tend to be the good scores :)). 2nd home, not so great, but not that terrible, but he had a timid owner who largely turned him over to her trainer to show and get her medals--but this is obviously where the spooking manifested itself (but his feet were scary.)

I like to go to about three shows a year, then I'm over it, to be honest. I do like to go to clinics and take lessons. Sure, I'd like to get my bronze, and my silver, but I'm very far from a hard-core lives to show person. I have friends like that and it's just tiring.

On the subject of feet--he does have some rather interesting x-rays--consistent and unchanged since first noticed by chance in 2018, and probably born that way, but I'm going to run them by my vet before I do anything dramatic.

The actual hoof itself now looks pretty good--nice quality horn and wide open heels and frogs--she's done a really good job on rehabbing them.

I'm rabbiting on here, I know. My gut flip-flops between "give it a go, what have you got to lose," and "you must be nuts."

I have not yet finished my due diligence.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:49 pm

Mountaineer, did you enjoy him? Then do a little more research/PPE and go for it!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Aleuronx » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:44 pm

Horse shopping sucks. I'd concur with most, did you enjoy riding him? Or did you spent the majority of the time thinking about whether you could live with his quirks?

IMO, the positives have to outweigh the negatives otherwise you will be miserable having to deal with the negatives. Does he suit your purpose/goals? Did he make you smile? If you can't imagine enjoying him when he's being a twat then don't buy him. Also expect the horse you saw to be the horse you get. It's fun to think we can change horses and even people but sometimes you just have to accept what they are.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:07 am

My vet is now driving me mad... I sent him over the xrays on Friday (after asking his permission to do so,) and he hasn't got back to me yet--and yes, I did send him a text today checking that he'd got them. Crickets.

I know, someone's had an emergency and I'm not the highest priority. But agh!!!!

If I get his blessing, I want to send a deposit, proceed to a PPE and move this thing forward before someone else swoops in and grabs him.

I've spent some time looking at the videos they took for me when I was there and realize that I actually like him quite a lot and can ride him quite well. And he behaved perfectly for me on day 2. I also sleuthed out some more show videos of him behaving beautifully, so it can be done...

I'm not an impulse shopper. I have to try on every pair of shoes in town before I go back to the first ones I looked at. (Drives my wonderful stepmother up the wall :)) This is what I have now done the equivalent of with this horse

I guess I have to give him another day, but then I think I'm just going to do this thing and proceed to a PPE and pray I've made the right decision. You all will be the ones to suffer if I haven't.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby khall » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:21 am

Mountaineer life is short buy the horse! :). With ppe of course

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby demi » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:18 am

I hope you make the right decision Mountaineer, because just READING these horse buying threads makes my nervous!!!

Seriously, my sister buys shoes the way you do, and she always likes them when she finally makes a decision.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 am

I totally get it, I'm the same way ha ha.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:55 am

My barn manager says to me today... "well, we could send those xrays to my old working student who is now a veterinary radiologist in San Diego..." WELL HELL, YEAH!

I'm sitting here waiting for a call back. My digestion is shot to heck.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:35 am

The waiting game is so tough! I hope you hear back soon and get a positive opinion on the x-rays!!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Ryeissa » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:46 pm

Exciting and stressful! keep us posted. Good luck

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:24 pm

I heard back from both my vet and the radiologist this morning.

Radiologist potted view: Yes, there are some significant lesions in the RF navicular bone, but they are not in the region where the the ligament passes over them, so they are not causing an issue there. But, of course there is no guarantee that they won't cause an issue in the future. Changes have been minimal over the past three years, but there have been changes. Horse could stay sound forever, could go lame next week, next month, next year.

Vet potted view. Yes, there are some significant lesions, particularly in that RF navicular bone, but the horse is an Arab/warmblood cross--arabs very seldom suffer from navicular syndrome and we give more latitude to warmbloods for weird navicular stuff anyway. And the fact that he is sound currently, and especially if he shows no sensitivity to hoof testers (? haven't done this yet,) is a very positive indication for now. But, at some point in the future, what we are seeing could well get worse and cause an issue. However, he would certainly be a candidate for nerving if things did go bad, and that would earn him an extra 3-5 years of performance life.

Now, my experience with navicular horses is that they don't really get to retire, they get sore enough quick enough once you've run out of treatment options that you do the decent thing and put them down rather than leaving them to gimp around in a field. (And bluntly, I'm in a position where I'm not going to retire another horse to pasture. I don't have my own farm any more and the options for retirement board around here are pretty thin. So when we are done, we are done.)

So filtering through this, and being a bit stark about it, worst case scenario, if horse were to go lame next week, I could (probably--there are no certainties) nerve him and get at least three years of good work out of him. Medium case scenario, he's happy for a couple of years, then we have to nerve him, and add an extra 3-5 years. Best case scenario, it never causes him a problem.

He is a 13 year old I1 horse with a solid record--he's probably the only opportunity I will have to ever own such a well-trained horse. He's 10K, so while it's not an insignificant sum of money, I'm not betting the farm on it.

Sometimes. too much knowledge is a dangerous thing. He's going well at the moment, and he could break a leg in the field next week the same as any other horse...

Opinions?

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:31 pm

Do you know why the found it in the first place? Was he lame at one point the last few years because of his feet? Or was it found on another PPE?

I guess it sounds like you really need to have him hoof tested and see how he reacts?

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby khall » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:42 pm

A 13 yr old that is sound now? Go for it. That navicular stuff is so arbitrary. And what I mean is that rarely are radiographs the best indicator of navicular mri does much better job and we all know clinical signs are more indicative of potential issues than radiographs are.

Rip as a 2 yr old was ppe because a flipper wanted him. RF navicular showed weirdness they backed out. He will be 15 this year. Nada with the RF. He’s an Oldenburg those WBs don’t have the same radiographs of majority other horses. Now if he was a QH that imo totally different story.
Last edited by khall on Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:51 pm

LSP, the story I have is that the initial findings were incidental to a PPE in 2018.

The story is somewhat muddied by the fact that his current owner, who is a barefoot trimmer, said that his feet were in shocking shape when she got him, very badly shod, ton of thrush, under-run heels, al lthose things you don't allow to happen to a navicular horse (or any horse really,) and she has spent the last 9 months rehabbing them. They do look pretty good now, shape-wise and frog-wise, I have to say.

I think I need to get off the fence and get him PPEd, and instruct the PPE vet to hoof test that right front carefully.

Khall, thank you for that.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Flight » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm

Arghh hard decision! I recently had Ding's hooves x-rayed and there were a few things in there that may or may not be a problem. It's so hard to know.
And an Inter 1 horse at 10k is a very good price...

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Srhorselady » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:01 pm

I was given my currently 25 year old Hanoverian when he was 12 due to navicular pain. He was showing Prix St G. His previous owner had him nerved in the one foot but he didn’t stay sound so I was given him. I took lessons on him and he was ridden daily. Two years later he was off on tight circles and corners. I had him nerved in both front feet (after much research and on my vets recommendation). We did the 9 months handwalking plus rehab. He worked at 3rd level for me until at age 19 two vets recommended he be retired to walk only due to his routine X-rays. He was still sound and feeling no pain. Since then he has been trail ridden at a walk three times a week, and still has no pain. He lives out 24/7 and I have an excellent farrier. At 21 my vet called him serviceably sound when flexing and trotting him. He trots and canters in turnout and testers show no pain at age 25. He is still trail ridden at least twice weekly. By breeding his sire was Macho, a French Anglo Arab, brought into Ciele (sp?) for breed improvement, however my boy is somewhat heavy bodied (1300-1400 lbs). My farrier says he has good feet. Based on my experience I’d do it again 100% of the time! If you like this horse...buy him!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Srhorselady » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:07 pm

BTW. I suspect the original owner couldn’t keep him sound due to poor farrier work. They had him on the road showing and his feet were NOT in good condition and not trimmed for navicular when I got him.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby demi » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:37 pm

It’s a crap shoot. The bet isn’t a really, really long shot. The outcome could very well be priceless.

I’d do it. (Disclaimer: I am on my second glass of wine)

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby MsM » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:32 am

I have a horse with "navicular changes". He was suddenly lame and the vet was coming to the barn the next day anyway. Not reactive to hoof testers, couldn't get a decent block on the foot, but radiographs showed changes. I opted for an MRI to better see what was going on. (By the time we went to the clinic he was sound) There were some issues and edema but the main issue causing lameness seemed to be disruption of the DDFT way down by the coffin bone. Did a slow rehab and different trimming and shoes (he had been barefoot) He remained sound and I did another MRI five months later which showed "profound improvement". He has been sound for two years now (madly knocking wood).

So if you are really nervous, an MRI could give you more info. Or a baseline.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:50 am

OK, I'm doing it. Moving forward to the PPE and sending a deposit.

Gulp!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby blob » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:03 am

good luck, Mountaineer! Hopefully the PPE goes well!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:20 am


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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:23 am


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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby khall » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:34 am

I like that I1 test!! He looks like he would be so much fun to ride! And the price is amazing for his training. Wow

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:12 am

Wow! What a horse and a bargain of a price! Fingers crossed!! So excited for you!!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby demi » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:15 am

Oh yes, he looks like fun! Great name, too. Fingers crossed!!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby StraightForward » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:22 am

This seems to be an amazing opportunity! Even if he is only able to do the upper level work for a few years, it would be a huge learning opportunity and well worth the gamble. Fingers crossed for the PPE!
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:13 pm

Another vote:
Get the PPE. Hoof test the hoof.

Sound at 11 with that amount of work is a big deal.

Fingers crossed!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Ponichiwa » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:24 pm

That guy looks like a great option-- how fun!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:36 pm

When is the PPE? I'm anxiously waiting to see if this is the one!!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:27 pm

I texted the vet this morning and haven't heard back yet, LSP!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:42 pm

Hopefully you hear back by tomorrow.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 pm

Next Wednesday... nothing about this process is swift, it would seem!

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby StraightForward » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:16 am

Good things come to those who wait maybe? That doesn't make it easy though!
Keep calm and canter on.

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Re: Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

Postby Moutaineer » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:54 pm

Vetting is now pushed back to next Thursday...


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