What offbreed would most interest you as a dressage horse?

[khall]

It’s been interesting on the iso threads as to who likes what and why. For me the appeal of an offbreed is much lower pricing so I have no interest in buying an offbreed for big $. Anything over $15,000 is big money for me. And my preference would be under 10,000. Well under

So my first pick would be ASB followed closely by TB and Arab/ Arab crosses. I also like a good QH preferably ranch bred and blue roan but they can be pricey.

A nice Connemara X is not out of the question nor would a Morgan and I’ve seen some mustangs I like a lot. For me personally I like a light footed sensitive but sensible horse. And would look for that type if I ever have to go horse shopping in the future. When looking for horses for other people we’ve found OTTB s and QH or APHA that fit their needs and personality. But these were not needing a high dollar dressage horse.

[Ryeissa]

my "off breed" is more "pedigreed" than most WBS LOL
sorry I hate that term, but I know why people use it.

[khall]

Well for me it fits the bill. On one thread we were discussing how the flamboyant moving WBs can get away with poorer training with the scores based on gait score. I can see why many are moving to WD.

So breeds that are not purposefully bred to do dressage work. Many breeds with long pedigrees fit this category. I like them because they don’t come with a big price tag. I was looking at that trainer who has Avanti and the prices on some of those horses were astronomical

[Ryeissa]

Well for me it fits the bill. On one thread we were discussing how the flamboyant moving WBs can get away with poorer training with the scores based on gait score.

I guess it depends if you believe this. I'm not so sure. I think the training holes will catch up with the horse. It's about form and function.....

[Ryeissa]

we all know my choice LOL. I think it just depends on the horse. I don't think arabs in general make suitable dressage horses, mine is a huge outlier.

[khall]

Rye I agree but how many have won gold medals with outright abusive training? Anky comes to mind.

I’ve seen enough Arabs that I would take home that I would look at them. Anja Beran has one she trains. Especially polish Arabs. I also saw a DHH/Arab cross that was such a nice horse

[StraightForward]

Certain racing bred QH's. I still get sad when I go visit Obie and think about what an awesome horse he would have been if he'd been sound. Maybe not an FEI horse, but probably capable of 3rd/4th.

My options for different breeds is somewhat limited by being less than petite. Annabelle is just big enough to fit my leg, and 16-16.2 is really a more optimal, so that rules out most Morgans, Arabians and larger pony breeds.

Next time I'm in the market, I think I will be looking hard at some crossbreds. Some mix of Iberian or WB blood. I've also seen some TB/Friesian crosses that worthy of consideration, as well as some nice Arabian WB crosses.

[blob]

Interesting thread!

I also look at non-conventional breeds largely because of price tag. Though, some of these breeds are now getting very expensive. Many PREs and Lusitanos are priced in high 5 figures.

Both of mine are off-breeds (mustang and welsh) and I would absolutely consider both breeds in the future. I don't know that I have any particular breeds I would seek out, but I would keep my eyes open because even within breeds they are exceptions. I also find the crosses frequently surprise me. I've seen crosses of horses I would never dream of crossing that have been lovely. I don't think that's necessarily because it was a smart cross, but because you just can't totally predict how breed traits will mix. I would probably find my next horse in this pool of strange crosses.

DHH and Fresian Xs are becoming more and more popular. And I very much understand why. But I personally am not a fan of the higher knee action these breeds bring. It's not that i think it's wrong or problematic, just personally not my thing.

I don't think they're very common in this country, so maybe not priced well, but i would very much be interested in a new forest pony. An ASB could be interesting, I've seen many that are nice, but i've never ridden one. They do look a bit tricky in the neck. I do really like thoroughbreds and so I could easily see myself with another or certainly a cross. It's a breed that I understand and usually do well with.

[Sue B]

TB's
Racing QH's
Maaaybe some sort of old school Arab cross

[Ryeissa]

Rye I agree but how many have won gold medals with outright abusive training? Anky comes to mind.

yes, but that was years ago. the tide has tuned (Thank god)...My point is that I have been at clinics with(with my horse) and watched clinics where BTV was very discouraged. These are judges as well as teachers.... Did you watch the latest Robert Dover horsemanship clinic? He talked at length and it was super

I don't see the same riding in GP (yes it happens) but I have been pleased with the GP being shown GENERALLY. I think the RK tide is turning.

[khall]

I think so too thank God. But it was not that long ago that it was still winning. Is Edward Gal or Minterhoud still showing? They are poster boys of that work.

[khall]

Posted on Tanga’s thread accidentally

This is a cool little Arabian

https://youtu.be/Q_eXfeFyMYo

SF I love the Iberians but don’t consider them necessarily off breed. Would buy one in a heart beat if I could afford another. Seriously would love to breed Joplin but doubt I ever will.

Georgia grandes are an interesting cross. Some can be squirrels some pretty nice. I’m not a huge fan of Friesians mostly because of feathers (applies to the drafts too!) but I saw one in 2019 at a clinic I would have taken home in a heart beat. Full blooded Friesians are pricey. Crosses a bit better.

[Moutaineer]

I have the same problem as SF, I'm tall. Many of the non-conventional for dressage breeds are not.

As you know, I have a partiality for Appaloosas. But there aren't many suitably built ones out there, and if they don't have the conformation for the sport, you are just bashing a square peg into a round hole.

[Josette]

I followed khall here

khall - totally cool Arab. This video reminded me of a George Williams Clinic for young riders I viewed many years ago. These kids were riding VERY expensive upper level WBs. The exception was the one rider who came in on the tiniest horse - a little bay Arabian. Lots of mouths hanging open that day. This little gelding did the BEST passage, piaffe and tempi changes over all the WBs - plus he did not get tired. Cool as could be and so much fun to watch him so light on his feet skip around the ring. GW definitely enjoyed working with that little horse. Never underestimate what comes in a small package.

[StraightForward]

SF I love the Iberians but don’t consider them necessarily off breed. Would buy one in a heart beat if I could afford another. Seriously would love to breed Joplin but doubt I ever will.

Me neither, I was thinking more of the various crosses out there, Azteca etc. It seems that anything that is half or less WB or Iberian is way more affordable. I think the thing with non-purpose bred, or various crosses, as Blob alludes to, is that there is such a broad range of types that one has to cast a pretty wide net to find that diamond in the rough.

Arabian sport horse nationals is right in my backyard like every other year, so I've attended. There are a few nice purebreds showing, but the Arabian/WB crosses are much nicer for the most part. If the croup isn't set too flat, and the canter isn't a lateral tendancy, it can work. I've always kept an eye out for a registered half Arabian due to the potential to get to a national competition 10 miles from my barn, but nothing has quite clicked when I've been shopping.

[Srhorselady]

Mountaineer, since you like Appies take a look at the “Confetti” horses. Breeder is in California and has bred her sport bred Appie stallion to warmblood mares. The stallion seems to always throw color. A friend owns two full siblings she has had in dressage training plus she recently bought another half sibling since she liked the first two so well. The friends mare was training third/fourth level before the pandemic and a pasture accident. She was 16.3. Her full brother is 17 hands and has even more extravagant gaits. He’s VERY athletic and they were about to bring him out at first level. Now due to pandemic financial situation he is currently at home in pasture. Her dressage trainer was so impressed after having these two in training (although he is NOT an Appie fan) that he purchased a younger half sibling. He’s a little smaller, maybe 16.1, but also has very nice gaits, color, and temperament. He’s either four or five and they plan to start showing him in the next year. There are also other siblings being shown in eventing. If you are interested I can get name/contact information. I don’t know how much breeding this lady is still doing. All of these have loud Appie coloring and warmblood conformation and gaits.

[Ryeissa]

I think so too thank God. But it was not that long ago that it was still winning. Is Edward Gal or Minterhoud still showing? They are poster boys of that work.

not really. I have been super thrilled with the GB riders. you can tell that is where mary wanless is from....some very lovely riders (beyond just Charolette and Carl)

[khall]

Looked for EG he is still showing

https://www.eurodressage.com/2021/01/13 ... t-february

I think 2020 and still now with the pandemic throwing everyone out of wack. Yes the British riders are good. But Germany is still top anchored by IW who definitely rides in RK. When I saw her in 2010 at WEG wanted to rip her off her horse. Horrible

[Kelo1]

Most of you know that I'm a Quarter Horse person, not a dressage person.

I like dressage for sure, but I have plenty of other things I enjoy as well, and the versatility of the breed is what makes it perfect for me.

I'll start by saying, at this point there are breeds-within-breeds of QHs. So a racing-bred QH is not the same as a cutting-bred QH which is not the same as an English all-around-bred QH which is not the same as a western all-around-bred QH. Then within each of those broader categories, each bloodline has its own temperament and specialties.

I think the western performance-bred QHs (ie those bred to work cows - cutting, cow horse, reining) are the ideal dressage prospects. They are bred conformationally to tuck their hindquarters and lift their front end, many of the lines have good movement, and you can spice them up a little bit if you want them dressage-level hot, but they still have the QH mind and heart. Most of the upper level Qs that I'm familiar with in the past few years have been from these lines, although there are a few exceptions.

As far as price....well. If you think all QHs are bargain basement prices....no. I think dressage folks can get the impression that QHs aren't worth much because they're seen as "less desirable" due to dressage scoring and general prejudice. But for one, these horses are valuable to people in many other disciplines, and for two, their strengths (athleticism, temperament) cross over no matter what discipline.

And that brings us to temperament, which to me is a huge plus for QHs. It's so easy to discount having that super-safe, trustworthy show partner, but how much is peace of mind worth for an amateur rider that just wants to have fun? Because having to deal with some spooky, fire-breathing beast that is liable to trample me anytime I took it somewhere is NOT my idea of a good time. I want my horse to be safe on the ground (home or at a show), easy to ride even if he's had a week off, and free of hyjinks of any kind-- and if I can only score a 65 instead of a 68 on a dressage test in exchange, well, I'm fine with that tradeoff.

This is a generalization, but if you want just a prospect straight off the ranch -- I'm talking a yearling or 2-year-old that's never been handled in its life -- you can buy one for $1,000-5,000. Then you just have to put the time on it, but if you have the ability and inclination, you're liable to get a really, really good one.

If you want a good, kind, sound, safe, trained 5-10 year old gelding that's been showing in ranch versatility/reining/cutting/cow horse or is otherwise show ready, well that's going to cost you $7,500-50,000, because that's the kind everyone wants.

If you want a trained QH of riding age and have a $2,000-$7,500 budget, well, you might find a deal but that's where the ones that have issues of mind, body or training are. So they might be just behind in their training or have bad training, have non-fashionable bloodlines, have very limited physical athleticism/movement, or they might have an unsoundness or they might be flat crazy. So buyer beware on that.

[Ryeissa]

Looked for EG he is still showing

https://www.eurodressage.com/2021/01/13 ... t-february

I think 2020 and still now with the pandemic throwing everyone out of wack. Yes the British riders are good. But Germany is still top anchored by IW who definitely rides in RK. When I saw her in 2010 at WEG wanted to rip her off her horse. Horrible

yes, we know, we know....Again you are talking about 2010 which is 11 years ago now....I am applauding the good which there is a lot. I know that i mentioned a few times I stopped watching dressage in the later 2000s and early 2010s. I can now watch FEI. So to me that says something. Yes, we have a long way to go but I have heard multiple sources speak against BTV which makes me so happy. I focus on how I can support this message and train with reputable people, follow them on social media, etc.

[khall]

No EG is showing in 2021 as in next month. I have no idea how he or anyone else besides IW who does train in RK is doing this last year. IW anchors the German team which is the one still to beat. Now the other German riders I don’t know how they train. So no I’m not still talking about 2010. That link was this year

[khall]

Kelo I agree re QHs. The ranch bred QHs which is the type I like are not cheap. Then add in the coloring that I like blue roan or buckskin and yeah you are talking some money. I think you could find the occasional one here locally that would fit the bill and not break the bank but for your money I think OTTB or ASB is a better bet. A friend locally found an incredible moving huge OTTB that had a change on him great mind for under 5000. And he jumps. Elisa Wallace in Florida has some lovely moving OTTB that I would not throw out of my barn.

I’m just amazed at horse prices. Like that PRE that mountaineer posted. I just wonder how the prices are in Portugal and Spain vs US. It’s so difficult to horse shop in the US because of our size

[Sue B]

Kelo, you most definitely do not have to sell me on QH's. I had a truly beautiful mover of a QH way back in the late 70's that was Lad Leo bred. He had been ruined by a self-professed "trainer" so I traded my little uncolored Appy for him. At 15.3hh he was not little, not big, just right for 5'5" me. I taught him to jump and did low level eventing, green hunters, and dressage on him (not fast enough for jumpers.) He was Idaho's 2nd Level HOY the year I sold him and went on to be a well-loved Pony Club horse in California. Even though he was a dapple grey, he never got malignant melanomas and was still carting little "Clubbers" around at age 30. So yeah, love me a good QH

[MsM]

I am a Morgan person. On my second purebred. I like a more cobby, shorter, upheaded horse and (mostly) enjoy the Morgan overachiever personality. Of course, some are dressage-suitable and some are not and they do tend to be too small for really tall people. And there are not as many around as QH or even Arabs, so not always an option.

I was fortunate to find my foundation type Morgan very green at 6 yo. He has really blossomed in work and my instructor (a WB person with her rider gold medal) absolutely loves him and says he can do "really big stuff" and has a trot "a lot of WBs would love to have"> And best of all, he has worked with me with limited help and a terrific attitude and work ethic.

When I was looking for a horse, I was open to all breeds and crosses due to a limited budget and ambition. I thought I would likely end up with a QH just because they tend to have a good temperament and there are so many! Thought I would live with a lower-headed horse okay since I had been riding a TB. But I reverted to my type when I found him and now have an unexpectedly talented dressage horse.

[Chisamba]

My best dressage horses were Anglo Arabian. It was a very popular breed in some regions, the French Anglo Arab was well loved. I don't know if any of you have the Henry Wynmalen dressage books but he rode Anglo Arabs. they are really hard to find anymore. So I wouldst have s lot of luck finding one but a good Anglo Arab.

I absolutely adore my DHH rescue, so I would definitely go there again. I might in particular look at a DHH with standardbred in it.

nowadays I am too big for any Arabians, Morgans, Connemara et al.

I just do not know enough about AQHA to pick a pedugreev that is sport and has a good brain and is sound. same with thoroughbreds

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Well I'm an off breed lover! I grew up with QH's and Paints. I've owned multiple Thoroughbreds, love them dearly for their minds and work ethics.

I'm still interested in exploring something like an Andalusian (although not sure I consider that an off breed), Morgan or an Arabian.

I'm petite so I think trying something smaller would be cool.

[piedmontfields]

I have always wanted a good sized (~15+h) mustang who is more Iberian than draft in type.

I think I would also really enjoy a Lippizaner (funny to think of them as "off breed" but they are not that common).

[blob]

I have always wanted a good sized (~15+h) mustang who is more Iberian than draft in type.

.

You should keep your eye on the online auctions BLM does. I watched for about a year before I found one I wanted to bid on. I paid $175 for her. They transported her from Oregon to GA (for free, she came with their satellite adoption caravan) and when I went to pick her up I had the option of refusing her and getting a refund or trading for another that was available for the live auction.

Back when I got her the online auctions only showed you photos, but now they have video as well

[khall]

In response to chisamba post re Arabians

A friend breeds working type Arabians. She has two stallions the younger one has some of the best conformation I’ve seen in an Arabian. The only problem is he is tiny. I told her I would be putting him to WBs for sport horse prospects. She does endurance

One of the first Arabs that I fell in love with long ago was a grey stallion that had been shown in park classes. He was stunning. A good Arab or cross can do the work. I’ve ridden some nice ones.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Anyone interested in mustangs, should look out in Colorado. So many of them, so many trainers that do a wonderful start with them in the basics. More Eventers though.

I've ridden many. All have had great minds, really steady mounts. Most seem to be energy conservationists though which is really tough for me. I've ridden two that were pretty forward and good movers though.

[Chisamba]

[quote="khall"]In response to chisamba post re Arabians

A friend breeds working type Arabians. She has two stallions the younger one has some of the best conformation I’ve seen in an Arabian. The only problem is he is tiny. I told her I would be putting him to WBs for sport horse prospects. She does endurance

One of the first Arabs that I fell in love with long ago was a grey stallion that had been shown in park classes. He was stunning. A good Arab or cross can do the work. I’ve ridden some nice ones.[/quote

thanks Khall, I blame sleepy brain for posting in the wrong thread, not that I have slept yet. lol.

[Chisamba]

I looked back at old photos, too look at " off breeds" of which I had many because I never really threw my hat in the ring of purpose bred for dressage.

I have recently been the mid-level trainer supporting average income riders. occasionally I regretted not going for it, but I think I do what keeps me happy, so this, it turns out, is my happy place.

In my youth my whole goal was to represent South Africa in the Olympics. I took SA citizenship despite hating apartheid, and of course almost immediately the international sport ban started and never stopped til long after I left there and have up my citizenship . I took daily lessons from a GP rider and judge getting up at 4 am riding at 5 am before my job started at 7. My progress at that time was meteoric. I started out riding the old toped out school master and progressed to riding all of Peter's horses. He imported clinicians. anyone who would come. we were regional winners and long listed for the Olympic team. We were able to attend the SANEF sponsored olympic development clinics.
I came to the USA fully intending to get a job as a Research Microbioligist at CU, and buying a dressage horse. instead

My first job in the USA was at Van Vleet Arabians in Colorado, then on to Ansata Arabians and then on to Hatchie Hill. It was only when my husband's job brought him to New Jersey that I started training anything that was not a registered Arab or half Arab.

So, FEI level horses, Sunstorm, GP, Anglo Arab. ( never got a passport because of politics and SA.)

Rose, Arab x Russian Warmblood. PsG

Karoo, Arab x NSH 4th level schooling PsG , broke a leg

Kea RID as in Irish Draught, showed 4th level, schooling PsG. , burned

those are my list of horses I consider upper level that I actually showed and owned.

I did show a few others that were upper level that I did not own, all pure Arabians to represent their various stud farms that I worked for at the time.

I only have two students now who have ambition but one is them had already showed at a level above her highest expectations. the other is growing up and going through a tough stage at the moment so I'm not sure if horses will remain their priority.

I kicked a few out of the nest, and one of my students is regularly riding FEI level in Florida and has surpassed me , which is super.

I make excuses like I didn't have the ambition to give up my ethics for wins, but maybe I'm just average and didn't have the ambition to go for it. there you go, that the introspection you get from me after working the barn days and my job nights and at the trail end of 24 hours without sleep.

which leads me back to favorite breed for dressage. I love the work, sensitivity and ability of the Arab. but I look to big on them, so I have shown Half Arabs. I like the extra physical strength the other half brings. now for the first time I do not have a single Arabian in my barn. its a little sad

[Ryeissa]

Yeah, everyone should have as much fun as I do with my arab X. I really like NSH too- they are very kind and tend to be "game" and work hard. Very much like my arab x paint.

[Kyra's Mom]

Well...what I consider an "off breed" FOR ME is a WB. Some lovely horses but mostly BIG. I am not a fan of big horses. Physically, they intimidate me just with the mass and height. I have owned one WB (Oldenburg) that was not big. She topped out at a massive 15.2...but, she was the most challenging conformationally and dressage was just too hard of work for both of us. She never grew up but got long and ended up downhill (I bought her as a relatively normal compact looking horse. I affectionately call her my little dachshund...of course not her fault. She was of more jumping bloodlines. I sold her on as a all-rounder as she could jump and was good on the trail. I picked up a catch ride on a 16.1 Oldenburg mare for a few weeks one summer. I would call her a nice but fairly average mover. Honest to pete, after a lot of work, I got to where I could sit her trot for about 5 strides. OMG, I don't want to work that hard.

SO, I am more interested in a certain height than what breed. I want a horse to be 15.2-16 hands. Wouldn't turn down shorter (down to 15 hands) if it was broad enough to take up my leg. I am 5'5" but right now a bit doughy after nearly a year of staying home and eating .

I started out with Arabs and part Arabs. I had a lovely little purebred gelding...not the most arab looking (Polish bloodlines) but mahogany bay with lots of chrome that was a really nice mover. Unfortunately, he got early onset hock arthritis (@7-8yrs of age) and was born before the advent of joint injections, joint potions and the like. I did successfully re-home him with a friend and he became a mountain pony of excellence after his hocks fused.

I have had one Arab/Hanoverian mare. Bought young and she turned out just a little bit 'weedy'. Not really a lot of traits of either parent? She wasn't ugly by any means but she was a bit short pasterned and sitting trot was a challenge that did not thrill my stiff back. My instructor at the same time rode her a bit and concurred. I got her to 2nd level then sold her when I fell in love with above WB filly at the farm I was boarding at(down side of boarding at a breeding farm).

Certainly, Kyra has been the best suited to Dressage for me. She is 15.2 and an Andalusian/appendix QH cross. Oh, if only my body hadn't given out on me the last few years. I was just on the precipice of diving into 2nd level when I started having some pretty major surgeries...one after the other . I hope that is over now and can get back in the swing of things this year. I did ride more last year than the preceding 6 years put together but I still need a lot of fitness work (and so does the horse).

I have always had a soft spot for Arabs and Arab crosses. I like more go. I don't want to have to pedal constantly. I wouldn't turn down another Andalusian/PRE or Lusitano but like most of us, I don't have the budget for that. There are some nice crosses out there. In another post, I posted a farm that is breeding Lusitano/QH crosses that look very handy. Kyra looks very Iberian and was a whopping $3,900 (as a coming 2 yo). Thank you small breeder that was horse poor.

I am sure at this point, as far as moving up the levels in Dressage, that my boat has sailed. That is OK. I still love dressage for the training and what proper mechanics can do for the horse. Just look at the before and after photos of Straightforward's Annabelle. Kyra is probably my last horse. If she makes it to old age, I will be in my mid-70's. I may look for a dead calm lease but we will see. It sure is fun to shop for other people though .

Susan

[exvet]

well I too have obviously been an aficionado of the off breed types for dressage. Obviously I've been owned by a few breeds which I would definitely go to again - Arabs and their crosses (got my bronze with my Bey Shah gelding), Welsh Cobs and their crosses (competed through PSG with 3 of mine, earning my silver on the most lovable Monty - who's still going strong and coming 23 and doing the 2's very well), Morgans and their crosses (I feel I got really lucky to have happened on Brandon) and Mustangs - though Ace is not interested in dressage LOL. I would gladly consider a ranch bred QH, another TB (had many crosses over the years in dressage and purebreds for hunter/jumper), or a saddlebred if the right opportunity presented itself. I will likely though stick with the Morgans. I'm very, very, very confident in knowing bloodlines and which ones work for me and which ones don't. I feel it really helps increased the chances of ending up with something that I want........so..........that is why I would easily see myself with another welsh cob, morgan or arab...............plus I have a few 'ins' with specific breeders which doesn't hurt finding those diamonds in the rough on a budget.

[mari]

I am partial to the spotty ones. We have some really nice Appaloosa sport horse (wb crosses) in South Africa, and a Namibian stud close by that breeds gorgeous sport horses too (Joseph's Dream Appaloosas). In the Western Cape is a stud that breeds Knabstruppers. I desperately desperately want one, but they are pretty pricey...

[Flight]

The breeder where Ding came from (he's friesian x TB) is breeding some knabstupper x friesians. Some have some really cute markings. I've been a bit tempted to get another baby horse however I'm not sure I'd want another friesian x, however Ding is one of the sweetest, funnest horses to have around but not 'talented' movement wise.
I'd love a lusitano, but they are $$ and not a huge choice here in Australia.

[Kelo1]

I just do not know enough about AQHA to pick a pedugreev that is sport and has a good brain and is sound.

Just for sake of the conversation -- as we all know, bloodlines only tell tendencies, and you have to look at the individual in front of you, but that said,

The bloodlines that most catch my attention on a set of papers include Peppy San/Mr San Peppy/Peppy San Badger lines, Freckles Playboy, Colonel Freckles, any of the Doc Bar get (Doc O'Lena, Dry Doc, Docs Sug, etc etc etc), Zan Parr Bar, Two Eyed Jack, Smart Little Lena, Smart Chic Olena, Nu Cash and Topsail Whiz.

These are kind of older bloodlines now, so they're going to be 2-3-4 generations back, but they've produced a whole lot of good horses to choose from.

It's just my observations from a wanting-a-dressage-horse perspective, but some of the hottest modern bloodlines bred for the sales and futurities might be exchanging some levels of bone and general size in exchange for peak ability in their sport.

The above bloodlines I listed, when cultivated in the right lines, are not as specialized, and have the athleticism and temperament required in your ranch or lower level cow horse stock (ie the ones being bred to work all day on the ranch or show for 10 years at the regional cow horse shows) instead of being that really specialized talent.

[Srhorselady]

I’ve never had a Morgan but I’ve always thought a western working/sport bred Morgan would make a good dressage horse. Conformationally they are a little like a small warm blood. They usually have a work ethic and are forward. Plus they are amateur friendly but have a little spice so they can sparkle in a show ring.

[quinta]

Another 'off-breed' fan here. I grew up riding Morgans, and when I finally purchased my first horse as an adult, I bought a western working Morgan (these are the bloodlines that developed as ranch horses in the west). When I bought my next horse, I wanted something with a bit more aptitude for dressage, and ended up with a Welsh-TB mare from exvet (thank you! thank you! thank you!). She is much more athletic and with better gaits. Now that she is in her teens - how does it happen?? - I was planning on getting a sport-bred Morgan for my next one. And... ended up with another Welsh cross mare. Because reasons.

I am short, so the large pony / small horse height is perfect. Noting that there are of course always variations within the breeds, I find the Welshes and Morgans forward and sensitive with busy, busy brains. Really getting them through in the back has been the biggest struggle for me.

[Chisamba]

I just do not know enough about AQHA to pick a pedugreev that is sport and has a good brain and is sound.

Just for sake of the conversation -- as we all know, bloodlines only tell tendencies, and you have to look at the individual in front of you, but that said,

The bloodlines that most catch my attention on a set of papers include Peppy San/Mr San Peppy/Peppy San Badger lines, Freckles Playboy, Colonel Freckles, any of the Doc Bar get (Doc O'Lena, Dry Doc, Docs Sug, etc etc etc), Zan Parr Bar, Two Eyed Jack, Smart Little Lena, Smart Chic Olena, Nu Cash and Topsail Whiz.

These are kind of older bloodlines now, so they're going to be 2-3-4 generations back, but they've produced a whole lot of good horses to choose from.

It's just my observations from a wanting-a-dressage-horse perspective, but some of the hottest modern bloodlines bred for the sales and futurities might be exchanging some levels of bone and general size in exchange for peak ability in their sport.

The above bloodlines I listed, when cultivated in the right lines, are not as specialized, and have the athleticism and temperament required in your ranch or lower level cow horse stock (ie the ones being bred to work all day on the ranch or show for 10 years at the regional cow horse shows) instead of being that really specialized talent.

I am concerned about others things too, PSSM, HYPPN, navicular . when I lived in Colorado the working horses were super. I'm taking about going into the mountains collecting cows, sorting herd. Gale had a few and they almost liked like a different breed from the horses I see out east.

[khall]

Kelo are you out west? I do agree with chisamba here that the lines here on the east coast are not the working lines usually and if you can find those old lines they are pricey.

[StraightForward]

I think Kelo is in Texas?

We have all types here and the QH's can pretty much be thought of as distinct breeds for halter, English and western pleasure, racing, and then the more foundational lines, but of course there is a lot of mixed types too, since they're all one registry. It's funny, an old friend of mine who used to show AQHA pleasure (up to World's level) has been out of horses for quite a while, but occasionally he posts an ad for an ad for a prospect he likes on FB, and they just look so odd and non-functional, though I'm sure they could win in the pleasure world.

[Kelo1]

Yes, I'm in Texas, so obviously the ranch horses are close to me, and I agree they're much, much harder to find out east. But....there are a some, there are even several actual ranches out there breeding quality ranch horses, and there's a whole big active group of versatility ranch horse competitors in the Carolina/Virginia area with nice horses. Or find a dealer you can trust out west to find you a horse!

So the genetic thing is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. AQHA is a massive registry, and it was progressive in getting its horses tested and releasing results - intended to benefit people. But horsepeople not super involved with the breed, often their takeaway is that QHs are riddled with these genetic diseases, and that's just not true. It's frustrating for me, like, why is my breed being punished because the registry is trying to keep buyers informed and educated. There are lines where those genetic issues appear, but just check their papers and avoid them. Today, most QHs have the genetic panel done as part of the registration process, and that's listed on their papers. You can find out at a glance if a horse has HYPP or PSSM. Stallions now are required to have it done to register foals, most have it listed on their websites, so if for some reason a horse itself was born before the rules went into place and hasn't had the testing done, you at least can check its sire's status, or you can simply get the test done yourself for $100 and make a sale contingent on clean testing.

As far as navicular, well, don't buy a horse with a 1,500lb body and a 00 shoe. Again, it's a function of the lines of horses and what people want to do with them -- which is why I choose the type of horse I choose. I am selecting a horse that comes from stock that has to be functional and sound for 10-20 years on a ranch, where they have to trot 15 miles and be ready to work cattle when they get there. It's gonna massively increase my chances of having a good, sound horse for its lifetime. When I horse shop, the first thing I do is look at their feet. Are they standing on hooves that will hold a 2 or bigger shoe? Then I will proceed. But avoiding bad feet is not a breed thing, that's a horse thing.

[blob]

I don't know much about QH lines, but I saw this one for sale awhile back (he's already sold) and I REALLY liked him. I would have snapped him up in a heartbeat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtusXTj ... e=emb_logo

[StraightForward]

Article on a Morgan gelding showing I-1: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/mo ... -no-limits

[Kelo1]

I don't know much about QH lines, but I saw this one for sale awhile back (he's already sold) and I REALLY liked him. I would have snapped him up in a heartbeat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtusXTj ... e=emb_logo

Yeah, he's nice - a nice mover. That dealer comes up with a lot of what look like nice horses, and do a super job marketing them. They had one I saw a few months ago that I tried to get a friend of mine to look at, but the COVID travel was too far.

Here's his direct page if you wanna watch more videos and see his pedigree: http://valleyviewranch.net/Woodys-Chrome-Cat.htm

He's a Woody Be Tuff gelding, and out of a Freckles Playboy bred mare. Woody Be Tuff is a popular sire, a good ranch/cutting/cowhorse/versatility sire, he produces some good horses. That's also where all the white comes from. And Freckles Playboy is one of my all-time favorite bloodlines, they tend to be exceptionally kind and people-oriented. I bet whoever snapped that gelding up got a nice one.

[Josette]

This gelding sold in 2 days after being posted. I sure liked his brain and his way of going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=252bQEg0i-s

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/skip+n+whiskey2

I really like the QHs. However, I would definitely consult with someone like Kelo who knows this breed so well. This was the gelding I lost a few years ago. Super brain even if alpha type ex-stallion but true worker - plus really safe for riding. Treating and managing Navicular many years ago was very difficult and expensive. I never want to repeat that again.

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/doublin+the+money

[Kelo1]

Just because I consider all this fun, hopefully everyone else does too, here's some pedigree thoughts....

The Valley View Ranch dealer has for sale a blue roan gelding (http://valleyviewranch.net/Claytons-Blue-Jake.htm) that I would consider coarse or classic ranch bred. He's double bred Hancock on top (which is known for both bone and soundness and strong personalities) and Docs Jack Frost on bottom, which is a famous classic ranching sire. Note the nearly draft-cross level of bone that horse is packing. That sucker will probably stay sound his whole life, but he's not really a dressage mover and he's so big he's not going to suuuuuuper cutting a cow (although you could rope and drag one no problem).

There are more modern ranch breeding programs that are looking to take that level of bone and put them on a little more athletic/stylish horses to get soundness but also the ability to move more athletically - that's where my jam is.

Compare the gelding to this little mare they have (http://valleyviewranch.net/Red-Hot-Memorey.htm) who is straight up modern cutting bred, you can see she is more free moving than the blue roan. Her grandsire, Dual Rey, has super athletic but maybe a little tough horses, Haidas Little Pep I love, CD Olena and Grays Starlight are both great bloodlines, bred for top quality performance more than longterm soundness, so that's just a depends-on-the-horse situation. Note her average at best bone, that would straight up depend on the horse and a soundness exam on her. I really like the sold Woody Be Tuff gelding, but this mare doesn't light my fire.

The Skip N Whiskey that Josette posted is what I'd consider foundation bloodlines. There are no popular modern performance futurity bloodlines at all, and you can see the size and the kind of bone that horse has in the video. That's the kind of pedigree that would make me say, you bet I'll look at him -- because I have no idea if it's going to be a nice one or an average one based on the pedigree, it just depends on the horse. He looks like a decent horse, the kind I see at ropings that are 17 years old and still going strong.

The paint horse pedigree.....Sonny Dee Bar for the most part was a pleasure horse and halter horse sire, and while they're good kind horses, and there are great horses within the family, I personally avoid those lines due to a higher risk of soundness type issues. I'm not super familiar with Paint horses (the bottom side of that pedigree), I know Jetalito was a popular bloodline but I couldn't tell you much about it.

[Kelo1]

Also.... If you enjoy being a nerd about these things, like I do, here's a sale I like, the Sugar Bars Legacy Sale -- it's a gathering of ranches out west that gather together to sell weanlings, yearlings and riding horses, it would be a good source to buy a horse. Each horse has a photo so you can kinda study them: https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukuser ... lution.pdf

The Hunt family does their production sale up right, they are in South Dakota and sell weanlings, but there are photos and videos on their website that are really interesting to study: https://www.rafterranch.com/production_sale.asp

Then if you have more money than god, the Return to the Remuda sale is where the most prestigious ranches consign their horses. This sale's top horses regularly go for $50,000-100,000 so a tad out of my budget (lol), but they all have photos and it's sure fun to look. https://www.6666ranch.com/wp-content/up ... atalog.pdf