Scoring Discussion Thread

[Tanga]

I'll make a new one so it doesn't get mixed up in other threads, and everyone seems really interested, and I obviously love the discussion.

From Exvet: my friend had a very interesting comment and view of competitive dressage, judging and proper training versus gaits. You see she came to the show last weekend as a spectator and watched the grand prix and intermediate tests after she'd watched mine. She was stating how horses trained very well but without the fancy gaits were scored, of course, lower than those that were displaying their talents but piloted less skillfully and how it's her belief that dressage has come to a point where the off-breed and/or '6' movers should be given a handicap like in golf when it comes to scoring on the basis of gaits. We've accepted for so long that it's primarily the [high quality] gaits that make the harmony, flow and beauty of the tests to the degree that training, even done correctly and improving a horse of what God gave them, continues to take too much of a back seat in the final results. She feels strongly that by giving a handicap to a '6' mover while scoring an 8 mover as the tests are currently judged would level out the playing field. While I don't think her view or suggestion will ever meet reality I found it to be a very interesting concept.

I love this. I agree it will never happen because there is too much money invested in the opposite, but it would be true dressage--training.

I judged a schooling show once at the college where they have a fabulous system. The way the collegiate system works is teams come in and draw horses randomly. They have 10 minutes to warm up and then ride the test. Usually the horse is ridden by two different people. The instructions I got as a judge on how to deal with gaits was wonderful--every horse gets a 6.5. And, as a judge I focused on the RIDING, not the flashiness of the horse. It really wasn't that hard. It would be just as easy to focus on the TRAINING and not the flashiness of the horse.

It was particularly fascinating in the fact that two different people ride the same horse and you could see the difference the riding made. The high score was about a 75% (training level) on a really nice horse. But it wasn't the niceness of the horse that got the score, but the riding, because the other person that rode the horse got about 10% less. There was also a lame, steady eddy pony that two people rode at intro level. One person asked if they could have another ride because the pony was lame. I said it wouldn't make a difference because I hadn't scored on that, but on the riding. The other person who rode the lame pony managed to keep it in a straight line and bend in the correct direction in a turn, and so ended up with about 10% higher than the person who didn't.

I know. Fantasy to get dressage back to actual training and riding. Sigh.

Want to be frustrated? Watch Wellington rides as you can see how they score as they ride. Me, I get a 6 for having haunches slightly right before a wonderful square, straight halt. There? Haunches way off to the left are a 7.5 And the piaffe scores are making me crazy. Whomever (sorry I forgot!) shared this https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Gui ... ements.pdf great link on how to score mistakes shows how messed up everything is. its is VERY clear that clearly not showing enough steps is a 5, but you see at least half of the riders there doing 5/6 and getting 6/7's on them. And while I really like Steffen and Supenkaspar and think the 8's on his extensions are too low, the down the CL p/p show a MAJOR fault of extreme balancing from side to side should be well below a 6, he gets a 7.5 I think. Sigh. https://gdf.coth.com/

[exvet]

I will be showing this Sunday at a recognized show. It will be interesting since this is just a level 1 show though that is hosting an S and an R judge. Usually I score higher with S judges vs. R judges but we shall see. This is often a show where the riding warriors show up, a few of the Arab elite in dressage and then the rest of us 'wannabe's'. The horse 'quality' if all over the map, typically. I've been showing in dressage since the late 80's/early 90s and honestly I've always had a 6 mover with the exception of a few Tb x welsh I've produced who were clearly '7' movers. I'm afraid I've been long accustomed to 'the ceiling' of gaits.............

Came back to update this post. My daughter has time to come over and video my rides at the show tomorrow. I'll try to post them here once I download them. I just learned that one of the judges was changed. I'll be riding in front of a small 'r' judge for one of my tests. She actually knows me well; so, it will be interesting to see how she scores the test (of course the onus is on me to ride it correctly). She's a pretty good egg and I've heard her thoughts on [modern] dressage. I always felt she was a pretty fair L grad when I've ridden under her at schooling shows in the past. Now that she's progressed in her judges' training, I'll be very curious to see how it all goes tomorrow and not just with my rides.

[Ryeissa]

I haven't been scored low because of my horse, so my experience has been positive. I don't think we have been penalized overtly because of his breed/color. Everyone just loves him and always says he is super talented? We have had some very good GP riders and judges see us and it's been good. Now I'm not flying with the big whigs in CA or FL, so there is that.... I think that would definitely be a different story and I would not show him there.

[Kelo1]

It seems like it would be interesting to explore different ways of scoring.

If you actually want dressage to grow and have bigger participation, you have to address the needs of the majority - and that is us average amateurs. It seems like to me that dressage arranges itself to suit the Olympic riders and then tells the rest of us to be like them.

It would be interesting to see what happened if you simply based each maneuver’s score on the checklist of training points, and totally take out the basis of starting the score with one single image of proper gaits.

The things the horse should do for a 10...you know, the relaxation, rhythm, straightness, whatever for each maneuver, all those things are performed differently by a different horse bodies. But I don’t think it’s THAT hard to recognize each body type doing things correctly, and can you imagine how it would open the sport up if you can get your very happy, very relaxed, correctly trained but sewing machine-moving pony to score well? Suddenly it is truly a sport for all horses.

It would never happen in dressage internationally because money, but hey you could get a group of motivated people to create something and then invite others who want the same thing to join. Heck that is what happened with Western Dressage and look how huge it has gotten.

[blob]

I agree Kelo. There are clear objectives written for each movement. Why not score based on the entirely? Fancy movers would still have an advantage because of course certain movements would come easier (extended work for example) and I think it's fine to keep the gait score in collectives. But it would feel more balanced overall.

I don't mind a fancy horse beating me if we both put in a good test. What bothers me is when a fancy mover makes many mistakes but still beats an average mover's correct test. It's tough when your starting point (6) is equal to what a fancy mover would get after mistakes (starting point 8, mistakes make it a 6).

[Josette]

Lendon Gray and Seldom Seen are who triggered my interest in dressage so many years ago. This was in the 80's that I became aware of them. The riding and training of an average horse was what appealed to me. Over the years, it seems dressage has developed into more of an extreme equine sport that I no longer enjoy watching - flame suit on.

I really liked viewing the SRS video someone posted a while ago. Lovely to watch them. I had seen the SRS in person during their USA tour many years ago. Also, I have access to a equine sport channel with all the European Dressage and Show Jumping - but I never watch it.

This discussion is part of the reason why I lost interest in the showing aspect of this sport. It doesn't feel like fun for me although I enjoy the training and riding aspect of dressage.

[Tanga]

Josette AGreed. Back when more average horses did well, and the extreme movers were punished for incoorectness. Kyra Kirklund comes to mind. I was able to see her on Max at the World Cup in Vegas. That horse was a very average mover, but it was all about training.

And Kelo 1, 100% with you. It really isn't hard to change perspective as a judge and focus on training and correctness, not flash.

Who knows. There has been more and more backlash from all of average masses of people for a lot of reasons. People are getting tired of their dues go to the wealthy few. There are more people seeking out different ways to compete, like WD. If working equitation becomes a thing, I am all in and think I can rule the world. All of that stuff my horses do already. I had a potential leasor come and check out my 22 year old from England. As we went on the trail, I made her open all of the gates and stuff. She said my mare was the best, forgot what she called it, but it was essentially working equitation, horse she had ever been on. That would be cool. I'm all about cantering in small circles with spears, opening gates, going over bridges, flying changes around poles . . .

[demi]

The downhill Morgan showing I-1 in that thread, really proves that “fairly good” scores can be obtained by a horse that has gait and conformation challenges far greater than many, many average amateur horses. If Seneca and his rider/trainer can score in the 70’s all the way up to the FEI levels, then why are so many average horses getting 50’s and low 60’s? Aren’t many of the USDF judges capable of recognizing an outstandingly accurate test ridden on a horse that clearly meets the stated purpose of the test, and the directives for each movement? I may be naive, but I think they are not only capable, but they really do appreciate a very well ridden test. So, really, where is the discrepancy? Is it totally the fault of the judging system, or are amateurs on average horse just not meeting the same standards they expect from amateurs and pros on super fancy horses?

[blob]

The downhill Morgan showing I-1 in that thread, really proves that “fairly good” scores can be obtained by a horse that has gait and conformation challenges far greater than many, many average amateur horses. If Seneca and his rider/trainer can score in the 70’s all the way up to the FEI levels, then why are so many average horses getting 50’s and low 60’s?

They got a 75% at TL. But they have not scored that high since. Most of their scores for tests (not including freestyles) are 63% or under. the FEI tests are 61 or lower. I'm not bringing this up to knock the rider. She's done an incredible job and I don't doubt that her 61% at I-1 was a REALLY nice test. I'm actually bringing up to point that her really nice test at I-1 that was posted in the thread was only a 61% and she had to earn every single point.

[demi]

I couldn’t find the their FEI scores but for regular 3rd level tests, not freestyle, I saw 66.4, 65, 66.3, 66.6, 69.1. ,69.8, 67. I think those are decent scores and would make her eligible for some awards. And Seneca is 15.1 behind and pony (14.2 or under?) in front. That’s a big challenge to overcome and still produce an accurate ride. I used to use a real old fashioned wheel barrow and I would hate to have tried to do an accurate 10 m circle pushing that thing. That’s what it’s like to ride a downhill horse. Even with an uphill conformation, many of the amateurs I see doing tests on YouTube aren’t making super good circles. Wouldn’t super accuracy in the smaller things add up? Or are accurate amateurs really only getting only 5’s and 6’s on really good movements?

I’m just trying to look on the positive side. If one has a fairly well conformed horse, with correct gaits, there is a whole lot they can work on to improve scores. That’s my personal hope anyway. I may be clueless.

[khall]

I think 61 is a fair score for that test. I really don’t have a problem with Uber fancy horses winning and with large scoring differences as long (like blob says) as the test is ridden accurately and well. Those horses do deserve such high scores. I just will never be able to afford such a horse

[Tanga]

demi--I didn't read the article on the Morgan. Where is she? I think that makes a difference. Scores really are a lot higher in some areas than others. I happen to live in one of the most competitive areas and go to shows where the scores are some of the lowest. There are definitely places where I can go (too expensive for me to drive that far) where I can score higher, and I'm sure there are places in the country where that is the case.

I'm not trying to bean the judges, either, because I am sympathetic. I think it is a lot of things. Seriously, if you don't score certain people high enough, you don't get jobs. The judges know that they won't come back if they don't please the owners, trainers and clients with the money that makes a difference. And they're not perfect, and it's an exhausting job focusing and finding the right thing to say for 8 hours. Having done it a fair amount and scribed a lot, all judges get into a routine of saying certain things and scoring a certain way. But, I think the judges committees need to keep working on refocusing on correctness. You know one of the biggest issues I see? I do have a focus when I judge that I look for the 8, 9, and 10 and try to give it. I don't see that from a lot of judges. And, conversely, the lower end of the scale needs to be used, too. In Wellington, I did see a couple of 2's and 3's, but that was only when the horse literally stopped and reared and did maybe 2 one tempi changes instead of 15. Sometimes there are those 6 rides, but I think focusing on using the scale more would help.

There is also the factor of judges getting into a frame of mind about certain horses and people, even in non brilliance movements, like halts. Look at Wellington. See the difference in scores for halts that are perfectly correct, straight and square getting 6's or 7's, and then the big name comes in with haunches off to the left and gets a 7.5. That little bit of bias even adding .5 here and there can make a huge difference. If you saw my guess the score thread, go ahead and look at my tests. Those really nice halts I did got 6's. Seriously. (Which really pissed me off because we were deservedly getting 5's when we refused to stand still.)

But, you are right. You can always have a solid horse and improve your scores. That's what I try to focus on as I bitch and complain about some things. While I'm working on getting clean one tempis IN the test, I'm also trying to bump up the single changes, halts, transitions, and all of those little niggling scores. I did improve my half passes which I was getting all twisted up about, so that's good. I'm hoping next Sunday with a judge I like to ride under, I will feel better about it all.

And khall, I think we all agree that while it's not fair, we are OK with super fancy horses ridden well winning. There's nothing we can do about that. It's the uber fancy horses that are not correct, ridden well, or did not have a good test that get high scores that are the issue.

[blob]

I couldn’t find the their FEI scores but for regular 3rd level tests, not freestyle, I saw 66.4, 65, 66.3, 66.6, 69.1. ,69.8, 67.

based on USDF record, those are freestyle scores, which are always high.

The non freestyle scores I think are good examples of the fact that a non-flashy mover does not score esp high.

[khall]

But why is it not fair? If the test is equally ridden well by the fancy horse and the plain horse the fancy horse should win it. Their training being equal. That is what I’m saying

I like watching fancy correctly going horses. It’s impressive to watch. When I was breeding Oldenburgs I was taking my foals to the gov inspections. I got to see several Quaterback offspring at them and always just drooled at how fancy those foals were. I always regretted not taking the plunge and breeding to him. So special and seem to have good ridability the ones I saw later under saddle.

For me doing dressage is not about showing but about learning and developing each horse to the best I can. If I show it will just be as an aside. But I get feeling angry at not feeling like you are fairly judged. I’m just not sure what can be done about it. Things have changed so much since I fist got into dressage in the 80’s

[demi]

I couldn’t find the their FEI scores but for regular 3rd level tests, not freestyle, I saw 66.4, 65, 66.3, 66.6, 69.1. ,69.8, 67.

based on USDF record, those are freestyle scores, which are always high.

The non freestyle scores I think are good examples of the fact that a non-flashy mover does not score esp high.

These scores were from Dressage Detective.
4th 1, 64.054 CLBM NCDCTA Championships. 10/2018
3rd 3 69.1 drsg in the Sandhills
4th 1 69.865 drsg in the Sandhills
3rd 3 66.41 Tryon

None of the above mentioned MFS. These scores were all for a particular level and a specific test. I though MFS didn’t have to be a specific test, just had to include all the movements from a particular level.

[demi]

Tanga, I dont know where the Morgan is from but guessing from the shows, region 3 somewhere.

And I understand about CA being very tough competition. I boarded at at the place you had your recent show for a few years in the mid 80’s and even vaguely remember someone showing an App at the upper levels! I thought it was cool. Not a lot of people even had warmbloods then. C.A. had a TB when I was there. A lot of people thought she got unfairly high scores. I won’t comment on that. Her TB had average gaits but I think all in all she did a good job with him. But yeah, even back then, I saw some unfairness in scoring as well as definite bias towards and against certain riders. I’m sorry to hear that is still going on...I was still working long hours with a long commute in those days, so my dressage amounted to mostly spectating.

Blast from the past! I remember an App from that time/place named Patchy Morning Fog. I loved the name.

Good luck next weekend!

[khall]

Those are impressive scores

[Kelo1]

But why is it not fair? If the test is equally ridden well by the fancy horse and the plain horse the fancy horse should win it. Their training being equal. That is what I’m saying

Khall, I hear your point, but for sake of what we’re discussing....if a test is equally well ridden, why would they not deserve the same score? Your premise goes back to considering the gaits. If both horses are working to the best if their ability I guess I don’t know why that sewing machine pony working its ass off and demonstrating all of the achievable qualities necessary in a movement should be punished.

Not only because our sport is about gymnastic training, but it’s gymnastic training for ALL horses, and the kind of horse that is right for each of us amateurs is different.

[Flight]

I think the judging has to be more correct. When you actually read the FEI rules, a horse should not be behind the vertical. It talks about a horse coming near to the vertical in piaffe, but in other paces the rules talk about being in front. How many horses dive down in front and don't stand still for 3 sec and still score like 7+ ?? There are diagrams of how a horse should go, but the big wavy front legs not matching hind legs is hugely scored.
The rules say half pass is done in collected trot (or passage in freestyle, or collected canter) but its ridden in some huge medium trot.
The aids are meant to be imperceptible etc.

Generally, I think judges are trying to get it right but to me it's gone off track. I'd hate to be a judge, it would be hard. I pencilled on the weekend and it highlighted to me just how subjective the scoring can be.

I listened to a podcast by an aussie GP rider and she highlighted things I hadn't though about for judges. They have a judging career also and wont get 'jobs' as a judge if they do mark down the popular ones. It's quite fascinating really.

[blob]

Demi, I see what you're seeing on Dressage detective. But it doesn't match what's on usdf's website. So, I'm guessing it's a mistake on Dressage detective, which has not been kept up to date. Im inclined to believe that the usdf website is likely the one that is correct if there is a discrepancy, esp given how out of date DD is now.


I am ok with the fancy horse beating the less fancy horse if they ride an equal test but that should be because of the gait score in the collectives, not movement by movement, if it's truly equal.

[Kelo1]

So why would a gait score would be included at all, even in the collectives. What would be the purpose?

I guess if I were redesigning I’d leave that out completely, because the only purpose it serves is to handicap FOR one specific type of horse, but maybe I’m missing a thought?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

But why is it not fair? If the test is equally ridden well by the fancy horse and the plain horse the fancy horse should win it. Their training being equal. That is what I’m saying

I like watching fancy correctly going horses. It’s impressive to watch. When I was breeding Oldenburgs I was taking my foals to the gov inspections. I got to see several Quaterback offspring at them and always just drooled at how fancy those foals were. I always regretted not taking the plunge and breeding to him. So special and seem to have good ridability the ones I saw later under saddle.

For me doing dressage is not about showing but about learning and developing each horse to the best I can. If I show it will just be as an aside. But I get feeling angry at not feeling like you are fairly judged. I’m just not sure what can be done about it. Things have changed so much since I fist got into dressage in the 80’s

Khall, I understand your point. A fancy horse well ridden is and should win, if all things are equal. That's just reality. But I think Tanga is talking about when the fancy horses aren't as well ridden, but scoring higher than an average horse with a more correct test. It just seems unfair to many.

Quoted from Tanga:
"There is also the factor of judges getting into a frame of mind about certain horses and people, even in non brilliance movements, like halts. Look at Wellington. See the difference in scores for halts that are perfectly correct, straight and square getting 6's or 7's, and then the big name comes in with haunches off to the left and gets a 7.5. That little bit of bias even adding .5 here and there can make a huge difference. If you saw my guess the score thread, go ahead and look at my tests. Those really nice halts I did got 6's. Seriously. (Which really pissed me off because we were deservedly getting 5's when we refused to stand still.)"

[khall]

Tanga wrote:
And khall, I think we all agree that while it's not fair, we are OK with super fancy horses ridden well winning. There's nothing we can do about that. It's the uber fancy horses that are not correct, ridden well, or did not have a good test that get high scores that are the issue.

This is what I was referencing and questioning why it’s not fair. The facts are that the Uber horse is here and are a big part of much of the dressage scene. The breeding of these horses have changed what wins in the sand box. I think even more now. Yet horses who aren’t aren’t as genetically endowed can still get good scores. Are they going to win Olympic gold medals? No but they can still have a career even at the national level.

https://www.canr.msu.edu/barry/uploads/ ... el%201.pdf
Scroll down to the collectives. There are two s ores that will be impacted by the quality of the horse’s natural gaits. Gaits and impulsion. That is just a fact of those horse’s natural ability.


I agree that the judging has been a problem for awhile. That slippery slope started way back with Nicole Uphoff with Rembrandt and Isabelle Worth with Gigilo. There has been some recovery but just the fact that IW has 3 of the top 10 dressage horses/rider combos should tell you it’s still an issue.

As for pony gaits vs fancy WB that’s just the facts that the WB will score higher if they are equally well ridden and I agree with that fact. Those Uber horses are bred for this movement and ease of the work. Very often like the Morgan they are doing well for what they are but still show the difficulties they have whether it’s not having good extensions or as in the Morgan’s case a difficult canter.

Kelo the gait score is because in dressage the purity of the gait is such an important factor in the training. If the training derails the gaits then the training is bad. The training as we all know should improve the horse’s natural way of going. We’ve all seen it as we straighten strengthen and supple the horse they become more beautiful in their work. With the breeding now those gaits are there from the get go.
As I said above watching those Quaterback foals go was jaw dropping. I saw Qredit as a foal at the gov inspections. He was one of several Quaterback foals there. They all were just stunning.

[Tanga]

Tanga, I dont know where the Morgan is from but guessing from the shows, region 3 somewhere.

And I understand about CA being very tough competition. I boarded at at the place you had your recent show for a few years in the mid 80’s and even vaguely remember someone showing an App at the upper levels! I thought it was cool. Not a lot of people even had warmbloods then. C.A. had a TB when I was there. A lot of people thought she got unfairly high scores. I won’t comment on that. Her TB had average gaits but I think all in all she did a good job with him. But yeah, even back then, I saw some unfairness in scoring as well as definite bias towards and against certain riders. I’m sorry to hear that is still going on...I was still working long hours with a long commute in those days, so my dressage amounted to mostly spectating.

Blast from the past! I remember an App from that time/place named Patchy Morning Fog. I loved the name.

Good luck next weekend!

That's so cool! That was me showing the Appy!!! He did not get unfairly high scores. We got beaned ALL of the time. It was hard to break 60%. But, he had a fabulous walk, changes, and pirouettes. Our ext. trot was never better than a 5. I showed him I-1 until he was 28. He was completely blind by then. He was mostly blind for most of the time I was competing him, but you couldn't tell.

[Tanga]

So why would a gait score would be included at all, even in the collectives. What would be the purpose?

I guess if I were redesigning I’d leave that out completely, because the only purpose it serves is to handicap FOR one specific type of horse, but maybe I’m missing a thought?

Exactly. The recent change in the FEI test deleted the gaits score in the collective, but it hasn't helped the judging in that way.

[exvet]

So I am in agreement with most of what is being stated here and actually kind of like the idea of the handicap suggestion by my friend (though not sure how one would really put it into practice, and still be considered fair, you know ....who gets to deem your horse a 6 mover and if the training improves the gaits as the training progresses do you get to change you're horse's 'movement' designation of a 6 mover, to a 7 mover?????, etc). In a perfect world I would just love it if the judges would apply the original FEI rules to their judging with the emphasis being on the purity of gaits <period> and penalize mistakes equally across the board. If you don't have a square halt yet the entry was solid until you halted and the horses right hind was left out (not back) or shifted to the side slightly as an example - then whether your horse is an uber mover or not - you get a 6, not the uber mover getting a 7.5 and the sewing machine receiving a 5.5, assuming submission and impulsion due to the riding/training were equal.

Now having said that I'm posting both of my rides from yesterday. The end score was almost identical though some of the movements were scored slightly differently based on what went on and who saw what. I think the scoring was fair and suspect most of you will agree. I know if I can improve my accuracy, Junior's strength and level of engagement especially so that I can perform better transitions the scores would likely have been 3 percentage points higher......but that's it due to the fact that I do have a pony. The show solidified in my mind where we're at in terms of THE pyramid.

Of course to the point of this thread, I received '7s' on all or most of my halts where the uber moving giraffe (warmblood really but boy was he built like a giraffe) being ridden by a pro received 8's for halts that were not even close to square and at one point (the halt reinback) really didn't happen. Unfortunately I do not have a video of 'that' ride to prove this but the gal was parked next to me so thanks to her openness I did get to see her test. Do I find it fair? No. Do I find it irritating? Yes.........do I still think my test was scored fairly? Absolutely - I guess there's the rub.

https://youtu.be/fdpHTZ4jRQE

https://youtu.be/McxSsejiGS4

[Ponichiwa]

The trouble with the gait score is there's a lot of ways to get a 6/7. Ride the heck out of your ground-bound ex-pleasure horse? 6. Take all of the suspension out of your boingy young WB because that's really hard to sit? 6. The former is not what the gait score was intended to judge; the latter is. The freer-moving the horse is under saddle throughout the movements in the test, the higher the score should be (in theory) as the rider is enhancing or at the very least not interfering with the horse's way of going.

And the tough thing is differentiating between the 6 that is helped by good riding vs. the 6 that's diminished from a horse's natural 8.

This is a really interesting topic to me as an amateur stats/econ nut. As in most systems, you get the behavior you reward-- so we're seeing really big-moving uphill horses coming out of the big breeding programs. If we instead rewarded steadiness (maybe by allowing/encouraging spectators to talk, or the like), what would we be seeing?

[demi]

I think you were underscored, Exvet. I will have to look at more vids of 2nd L tests with scores on YouTube, but off hand I think your tests should have been in the very high 60’s. I’d like to know who the judge was. If I had put in a test like yours I would not have been happy with 62+. I guess I need to adopt your attitude and keep in mind that you are on the right track, you know exactly where you are going, and you have a plan in place to get there. You’ve done well and will climb the levels very respectably.

Still, i think you and Jr were both good. More than fairly good, and much more than satisfactory. I don’t agree with that judge.

[exvet]

I think you were underscored, Exvet. I will have to look at more vids of 2nd L tests with scores on YouTube, but off hand I think your tests should have been in the very high 60’s. I’d like to know who the judge was. If I had put in a test like yours I would not have been happy with 62+. I guess I need to adopt your attitude and keep in mind that you are on the right track, you know exactly where you are going, and you have a plan in place to get there. You’ve done well and will climb the levels very respectably.

Still, i think you and Jr were both good. More than fairly good, and much more than satisfactory. I don’t agree with that judge.

Demi I appreciate the support and thank you. Junior lacks the engagement and collection needed at this level, or at least needed for test 3 as in a horse ready to move on to third level. I also made some bad mistakes in the turn on the haunches, etc. I rode for two judges, a small r, Michelle Combs, and Mike Osinski an 'S' judge who I've ridden under in the past. He seemed to score me fairly on both Monty and Resi, Junior's sire, a little higher but to be fair I had them better prepared for the levels. When I had them I honestly rode at least two shows a month, a schooling show and a recognized show because I was campaigning for my breeding program. Having only one 'show' horse and the relief of no longer having to campaign unfortunately has left me just not rusty but not really putting Junior through the paces as I probably should.

The horse after me, the warmblood that I referred to in my previous post scored a 76.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Exvet, really lovely tests. Thanks for sharing. I also think it seems a tad low on the score but it sounds like you have a plan to keep improving which is everything.

I guess what I'm hearing is that it's that you think you are being scored too low- just that the huge moving WB's, with less than stellar tests are being scored much too high.

I get it. It's a slap in the face to work so hard, to ride correctly and then see that. :/

[Sue B]

Really nice tests, exvet, but I have to agree that Junior is not really ready for 3rd level YET. He actually scored quite similarly to Rudy and I a few years ago. It's just that the level of collection and engagement required for 3rd level isn't quite there yet. I know it will be; it's simply a matter of time and building strength. All that said, I do, however, find it incredibly frustrating that "free-flowing" warmbloods are given a pass and shoved on up the levels, ready or not. For those of us who started in dressage in the 70's, it's painful for us to acknowledge it is no longer our sport.

[exvet]

Really nice tests, exvet, but I have to agree that Junior is not really ready for 3rd level YET. He actually scored quite similarly to Rudy and I a few years ago. It's just that the level of collection and engagement required for 3rd level isn't quite there yet. I know it will be; it's simply a matter of time and building strength. All that said, I do, however, find it incredibly frustrating that "free-flowing" warmbloods are given a pass and shoved on up the levels, ready or not. For those of us who started in dressage in the 70's, it's painful for us to acknowledge it is no longer our sport.

Agreed on all accounts.

[Moutaineer]

SueB, in my experience, the warmbloods find it as frustrating as you do...

In my ongoing horse search, I'm finding quite a lot of horses that have been hustled up the levels to the point they have said "no." They've been pushed beyond their level of fitness and muscular development and have reached the point of physical and mental resistance. Which is such a huge shame. Nice, well conformed, talented horses being cranked and shoved through the show mill for the owner's ego and pocketbook, then discarded when they develop issues.

Then you look at that little Morgan. They've allowed him to take his time, kept him happy and engaged in his work, and he's moved along up the levels--they've also been fortunate that he has stayed sound (partly good fortune, partly genetics, and partly careful management and riding, though, I am sure.)

[Josette]

SueB, in my experience, the warmbloods find it as frustrating as you do...

In my ongoing horse search, I'm finding quite a lot of horses that have been hustled up the levels to the point they have said "no." They've been pushed beyond their level of fitness and muscular development and have reached the point of physical and mental resistance. Which is such a huge shame. Nice, well conformed, talented horses being cranked and shoved through the show mill for the owner's ego and pocketbook, then discarded when they develop issues.

Then you look at that little Morgan. They've allowed him to take his time, kept him happy and engaged in his work, and he's moved along up the levels--they've also been fortunate that he has stayed sound (partly good fortune, partly genetics, and partly careful management and riding, though, I am sure.)

Totally agree with you and know it well. I just wanted to mention per the Morgan article. In the past, he had his share of injuries from a fence cut to broken splint bone and metabolic issues too. He is well cared for and loved. Lovely story.

[Tanga]

Exvet Thanks for sharing! I'm glad others are posting tests so we can all learn. I find this very informative and always relate it to what I'm doing.

I know Mike Osinski pretty well. I know an old friend of his, have ridden under him forever, and scribe for him. He's known as a generous judge. Interestingly, as a scribe, it doesn't necessarily seem so, because he also doesn't do a lot of "why not an 8?" BUT he is willing to give that extra .5 regularly. I generally score about 5% better with him than the harsher judges, same test (even at champs.)

Your tests are good. I don't know what the scores were. I watched the whole first one. I disagree that Junior is not collected and engaged. This issue is it's hard to see because he doesn't have that big open shoulder. Your halts were 8's. That one transition through the walk from canter was an 8. Look at his hind end. He is ALWAYS carrying and has his hind legs under and separated. You don't see that in a lot of horses. So his breeding allows him to do that better than other others. But, the judges aren't seeing the carrying. Why? It doesn't matter that you are actually doing, it's what they see. They see the front end. I'm going to say something a little controversial, but see what you think. Shorten your reins and bring his head up more.(Rein length thread!) Yes, it takes some time for him to learn to be there, but he's already carrying, he just needs to show it with his head. This is what I've been working on.

So this is my thought process and what I've been through, and Chelsey helped me with this because she's been showing forever and knows all of the BS in showing. Pick up his head with your hands. Is it correct? No. But I higher head shows carriage and engagement. And watch ALL of the higher level, best riders. You see them do that ALL of the time. Watch Charlotte Dujardin--you literally see her pick her horses' heads up all of the time. I'm guessing because of his build he can't/won't drop his front end when you do that (like Quilla.) Just pick his head up and say "I want you to be here." When he falters, you can support with that leg and give more gas, which he has plenty of. You can see the issue in one of the up transitions where he throws his head up in the canter. If the reins are shorter and he's up already there, that might fix that, even though it can be a bugger to keep an actual collected walk before the canter. This is helping me, I think in "showing" the collection, and in trying to fix my ones, where Quilla likes to dive down and get frantic if I correct that hind leg.

Also, in relation to my losing my half passes and getting them back, I noticing in your SI/HI the bend is not there. Boy I was having problems with that. Chelsey helped me again on that. Even though everyone tells you to put on more inside leg, it doesn't really work that way. What I was doing is taking my inside rein over in the direction of movement, and then the horses were dropping their shoulders and unable to move over well let alone bend. I started at a walk and did what felt like holding my hands WAY over to the outside (in reality when you look at it they are straight) and pushed the horse sideways. Whenever the bend goes away, I take my hands to the outside more and bump them there with my outside leg. At the walk and trot I also did counterbent pirouettes, so circling to the left around the front end bent to the left. Yes, you will twisted up like a pretzel, but it really seemed to click with the horses, especially Quinn who I was having major bending issues with (even though she has a much longer back.) Short backed Quilla is much easier to bend. Just a thought about something you might want to try.

[exvet]

Thanks Tanga. Your suggestions do make sense and translate well to what I'm hearing from one instructor. I'll give it a try.

[demi]

I’m glad Tanga disagreed that Jr. wasn’t collected or engaged enough. I compared him to horses at higher levels that are getting higher scores and doing exactly what Flight describe upthread somewhere: “big wavy front legs not matching the hind legs”. Waving the front legs and not truly reaching with the hind legs isn’t engagement, is it?? I thought Jr. was way more engaged, maybe not enough to move to 3rd, but definitely enough to get higher 2nd level scores than he did for those two tests.

I remember J Ashton Moore saying that Chelsea was a master at showing and I love the way her horses go. Never behind the vertical and nice engaged hind legs. But, on the other hand, I get the feeling Exvet is more interested in getting him correct than working the system for the scores. So in that respect, I think your plan is a good and you should stick pretty much to it.

[Tanga]

demi--I didn't really mean to say what I suggested is incorrect, it just seems like it is. You can't get the head and front end up without correctly working behind and getting stronger. But, it's a little bit of back and forth of getting them stronger, teaching the "trick," and then getting them stronger as they understand it. Working with mine, that's what I felt. They couldn't do it without the correct training, but asking them to be where I want by putting them there and letting them figure it out has helped. I think Junior is plenty strong behind.

I tried it last night with one of my leasors on my older mare who's a little bit arthritic on one front leg, so long and low is not good for her. Having her do the pull her shoulders and head over with the hands really helped her (the horse and rider) understand how to be up and carry more and correct the issue of her wanting to fall and get stiff to the inside.

[demi]

demi--I didn't really mean to say what I suggested is incorrect, it just seems like it is. You can't get the head and front end up without correctly working behind and getting stronger. But, it's a little bit of back and forth of getting them stronger, teaching the "trick," and then getting them stronger as they understand it. Working with mine, that's what I felt. They couldn't do it without the correct training, but asking them to be where I want by putting them there and letting them figure it out has helped. I think Junior is plenty strong behind.

I tried it last night with one of my leasors on my older mare who's a little bit arthritic on one front leg, so long and low is not good for her. Having her do the pull her shoulders and head over with the hands really helped her (the horse and rider) understand how to be up and carry more and correct the issue of her wanting to fall and get stiff to the inside.

I didnt think you were saying that what you suggested was incorrect, but I think it was my response that was unclear! but I couldn’t think of a better way to explain what i was thinking. That’s the trouble with communication on a bulletin board, kinda like texting. Anyway, I don’t think what you are suggesting is incorrect at all. I think I understand what you were saying and even more so after you explained it in the above quote. Especially the back and forth part because I am doing exactly that (only at a lower level) teaching my mare to carry herself uphill in spite of a downhill conformation. My mare has a strong QH rear end, but she is still learning what I want. Even tho she has a strong butt, she has to use it differently than she naturally wants to in order to carry herself up in front. I had a feeling about this a while back when I mentioned that I needed to ride with my hands a little lifted, even tho that broke the straight line from bit to elbow. By lifting my hands a little, I was slightly raising her head and neck, and then I would ask her with my seat to bring her hind end under. At the same time i asked the hind under, I was carefull that I wasn’t holding her head and neck up, but simply showing her by lightly lifting my hands a little. It has been a several week process but it’s really neat how well it’s working. And it works by getting her there, letting her do it on her own till she cant hold it anymore, and then putting her back.

As far as doing that for showing purposes, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that and that’s why I mentioned that I really like Chelsea. I wish I could train with her! But the point I was trying to make was just from my own point of view that I would just have to focus on the path that I am currently on and forget about the score for a while, till I got to where I was going. If that makes sense.

[Tanga]

Demi--Cool. Part of the issue is me, also, trying to figure out how to change my riding to work better and meshing it with what I think is correct training, and then trying to articulate it in what I am saying. I am still in the middle of this process with this. What you're doing with your mare is exactly what I am talking about.

I totally get your path. I am there, always, but I still get to bitch about scores! In the end, it's always going to be for ourselves because no one else really cares what we're doing, and we're never going to be the big ones anyone follows.

[Ryeissa]

well....is lifting the hands really a trick? I have seem in my own riding hands too low in relationship to the bit elbow line is far worse as far as negative consequences in the horse.
Lifting the bit with a slight up motion does place the bit higher in the corners of the mouth which is the place that allows us the best connection.....

This is a well established way in french dressage to get them lighter. I guess context is everything, and how much lift are we talking.....and of course what else the rider is doing..... a moment of lift is fine, and i don't consider this "hand riding?"

As someone who tended to always have the hands too low and work down on the bars this is a very interesting though process. I don't see this lifting of the hands as a parlour trick, it was taught to me in the context of how the bit sits in the mouth.

if you need this to consistently help then there is a bigger problem. Course i Dont' ride the upper levels, so my points are all in the middle level context.

[galopp]

Now that that 3 of the 4 general impressions have been removed from fei judging, and there is a movement to eliminate them from all tests. But what is the purpose of the general impressions? It was to highlight where the training issues originated. (And that is often NOT clear unless there complete comments on the test (the quality of the gaits, the directives being fulfilled specifically, etc). It is to direct attention to the effect of the training, when the strength and weaknesses are.

With traditional judging (forums lead by Jaap Pot who was a master of judging education, Niggli, etc) that gait are about 2 things: PURITY of the gait, and freedom. So there is no '6' mover. There is a gait which is PURE (5+) or impure (4-). Yes there are more and less athletic horses, but there are hugely athletic horses which have broken gaits (eg Toto's trot) which traditionally would have been given 4s, not 8s. And then the judge has to look at all three gaits, and then combine them (are all pure? Or ??).

So, the breed is not what is being evaluated, it is (supposed to be the) gaits, and how training is affecting them.Same for impulsion/submission/equitation. This is NOT the judging of a materiale class, then we look just to the 'future' of the horse, the possibilities. IF all things are equal the more athletic horse will shine. But imho better a well ridden plain brown wrapper than a poorly ridden 'fancy' mover whose gaits are ruined by over tempo/compressed outline/etc.

As far as half halts: ideally (if the horse was traditionally trained) it was the seat or leg to meeting the hand (bilaterally or diagonally). But if the horse is low or closing or etc. the use of a snaffle was always into the corners of the lips (regardless of the school). That usually a slight action of a key in a lock (use of the wrist), as little as necessary; but to have the aid be clearly to change the horse's use of its balancing rod/neck sometimes it is more which in turn folds the hind legs more. (And this was any school, not just french). That said a vertical action of a curb aa often see action du jour is problematic will compress and then close and lower; this is NOT traditional. It is antithetical to traditional training. The specific use of the two bits must represent reactions to the horse, and are based on different actions of the rider (who should know the 9 rein holds specifically). mho

[exvet]

So Paula K, I do not expect for you to give me free advice (besides I would gladly pay for it again if there was that opportunity) but I'm curious as to whether or not you agree with the comments provided for each test. The comments for the following test were, "Athletic team with super moments. Work to be a bit more supple and move body and legs and use his power to show more development of collection." I totally agree with the need to be more supple. Not sure I get the rest of it though, to be honest.

https://youtu.be/fdpHTZ4jRQE

The next test received the following comments, "Pleasant character. Do seek more uphill way of going to further engagement and reach. Mediums need further thrust and ground cover. Willing character." Now you and I both know that I can get the 'thrust' with just about any welsh cob; but to do so sometimes introduces even more tension through the back at the risk of it turning into a speed event (though with more shoulder freedom and higher front legs - feathers flying). I do agree that I need to show more difference between the collected and medium trot. I think working on the suppleness part will help me push the envelope without careening over the edge...........your thoughts?

https://youtu.be/McxSsejiGS4

I'm actually heading out to ride the little tank right now. I do have quite a bit of a challenge getting him to bend properly so that is another aspect I need to determine how to develop properly with this guy. Monty has more length of back so bending for him was never quite the same challenge if I set him up and rode correctly. Also true with Junior's sire, Resi. This guy was definitely born with more shoulder freedom (thanks to his dam) so I am confident that I can overcome or produce what they want with respect to the medium gaits; but, he is the most short-coupled welsh cob I've ever had and correct bending is elusive. I will experiment a bit with Tanga's suggestions.

[Tanga]

exvet Those comments sound like the comments I get on my tests and that I see on tests all day long when I scribe, and even that I write sometimes when I judge. I'm not dissing the judges, but it pretty much applies to almost every horse. So, that might be why it doesn't necessarily apply to your test.

[exvet]

exvet Those comments sound like the comments I get on my tests and that I see on tests all day long when I scribe, and even that I write sometimes when I judge. I'm not dissing the judges, but it pretty much applies to almost every horse. So, that might be why it doesn't necessarily apply to your test.

Yes, I have to admit that it's what I've seen repeated over the years despite the horse (of course 95% of what I ride show are welsh cobs or their crosses). I did try working on the bend today using your suggestion of I started at a walk and did what felt like holding my hands WAY over to the outside (in reality when you look at it they are straight) and pushed the horse sideways. Whenever the bend goes away, I take my hands to the outside more and bump them there with my outside leg.. It really helped prevent collapsing on the inside and also getting Junior into both reins evenly while keeping more of feel of wrapping around my inside leg. Thank you again.

[khall]

Ugh this gets an 80%

https://youtu.be/zz0JKgkxdlo

The horse has such broken gaits

[Tanga]

Yes, I have to admit that it's what I've seen repeated over the years despite the horse (of course 95% of what I ride show are welsh cobs or their crosses). I did try working on the bend today using your suggestion of I started at a walk and did what felt like holding my hands WAY over to the outside (in reality when you look at it they are straight) and pushed the horse sideways. Whenever the bend goes away, I take my hands to the outside more and bump them there with my outside leg.. It really helped prevent collapsing on the inside and also getting Junior into both reins evenly while keeping more of feel of wrapping around my inside leg. Thank you again.[/quote]

Yeah! It's really been helping me. Let's see how the show goes tomorrow. In discussing it with other people, everyone says put more inside leg on, which just doesn't work.This just allows them to wrap around you more easily. I've spent way too many years in always trying to go forward into everything, working from behind, but as with anything, nothing is 100%.

[Tanga]

Ugh this gets an 80%

https://youtu.be/zz0JKgkxdlo

The horse has such broken gaits

Wow. What an oddly cut video. Notice the he walked into the first halt? I agree, some seriously broken gaits. Those canter pirouettes--that is wrong. That piaffe is a has a seriously bad faulty which should be under a 4--he threads the needle behind. Ugh. What the HELL is wrong with the judges? I like Edward Gal, but this is a problem.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Khall, gosh, nothing about that video appeals to me at all. I'd rather watch Tanga and Exvet (and honestly anyone on this board) any day over that.