Tesla's stops and spin outs

[StraightForward]

I agree with that quote SF. What I think is happening is that in putting your left leg back to guard against Tesla swinging her butt left, you aren't just moving your left leg from the hip but you are moving the whole hip back and overbalancing on the left side of the saddle. We all have some pelvic asymmetry. As a Bowen Therapist I have become more aware of these issues and how they influence how we ride. The students I teach are all older adult amateurs. Asking them to rotate their upper body from the waist to ride a bended line wasn't getting the result. When I got them to realign their pelvis they immediately got results. It only takes an adjustment of 1/2 inch or less with each hip to make a huge difference.

I thought about this riding my other horse today. I was in a jumping saddle, so it might be slightly different in a dressage saddle, but both horses tend to fall in on the right shoulder, and I do tend to go over to the left to compensate, however, I think my seatbone is sliding more to the left rather than back, and the correction is more inside knee to keep the shoulders over and under me, as well as keeping my back right ribs more pulled together so my left front rib doesn't collapse in.

Rye, this horse is very green and doesn't know much about contact, so there really isn't a contact to throw away and trying to take contact in that moment would ensure that she stopped. However, the lunging in side reins is working out really well, and I'm optimistic that it will transfer into the riding well. I remember you saying that you don't work with young horses, so I'm not sure if you've ridden a horse through this stage?

Khall and SueB, I am grateful that Tesla is not as explody as Rip and Tio!

Last night I re-watched the video from when I took a lesson on her a couple weeks ago, when I *thought* we had put the stopping behind us. She was still a little sticky, but there weren't any stops, and I was not riding any differently as far as I could tell. We pushed her a little more in the lesson and in the two or so rides afterwards, then the stopping started again, I guess because the work got a little harder? Will do a few more lunging sessions and try riding again this weekend and see if I can implement some of these suggestions.

[StraightForward]

I will say one thing though. 99.9 % of the time you get the horse that you deserve. we train them to be who they are. if your horse does something, you have to be prepared for a little self examination to solve it.

Do you think I'm not considering all this advice? I mean, I'm sitting here voluntarily getting picked apart by internet people and trying to sort through some conflicting opinions. Or maybe you are speaking in general?

[Chisamba]

I will say one thing though. 99.9 % of the time you get the horse that you deserve. we train them to be who they are. if your horse does something, you have to be prepared for a little self examination to solve it.

Do you think I'm not considering all this advice? I mean, I'm sitting here voluntarily getting picked apart by internet peopl
e and trying to sort through some conflicting opinions. Or maybe you are speaking in general?

no, I was speaking generally. you have received quite a lot of conflicting advice. filtering through is not always easy. but I am often faced with, both in teaching moments and learning moments, situations where the rider says, my horse will do A or my horse won't do B. it takes quite a lot of reflection to think I do A and my horse responds by B. especially if you ride more than one horse, and the rider does not have the same problem on the other house they ride.

i have a very tense spooky mare. imagine a scenario where we go past the dmcorner 20 times and she spooks on the 21st. it is very easy for me to think, well mare, we went past 20 times already what is the matter with you. it's takes a bit of self reflection to think. what did I do preceding the corner that led to the tension that created the spook. I often have to remind myself most of the time you get the horse you deserve. what did I do to deserve that.

maybe I pushed too hard.
maybe the preceding work created tension that continued into a spook.
maybe I just do not have a good enough response to the aid.

just today she did that to me and it was so silly I started to laughing. she heard the chuckle flicked her ear and immediately relaxed. so maybe, just maybe, I get too intense and she responds. especially since she relaxed when I chuckle.

I am not suggesting this is Tesla. I am just suggesting that you approach the problem with an analytical sense. precedent, then undesired behavior, then antecedent. you.might try my advice, analyze. then try a different advice, then analyze.

I feel like they're are 2 major categories of riders. cookie cutters riders. they do very well on the same kind of horse. they are smart and choose horses with the kind of mind they like to ride.

and b, analytical riders. they manage to adjust and improve horses of various types and dispositions.

so it was a general statement to all who might have read it. just remember 99.9 % of the time we get the horse that we deserve.

[Chisamba]

to add to my giant essay above...
horses of course have different personality, responses and anxiety. I am not discounting their part of the partnership. the question is are we adequate for our share .

I admit to being inadequate for the task wrt Deneb, but I also did not trust myself enough. I believe she has some integral pain, I just haven't been able to find it.

[tlkidding]

Is it just mares that do this? Tesla is about the 5th horse I've heard of that does the big stops and they've all been mares.

No, my coming 4 year old WB gelding left the outdoor 4 times last night and spent the whole time we were tracking right aiming the left shoulder to the exits. I tried the counter flexion idea, but if I had any contact in both reins as he stopped turning/going forward and started flying sideways, it didn't work.

Good luck SF - I might be on here in a few days asking for ideas on how to ride through something similar but worse. And he started threatening and getting really stuck a few times, which makes me get scared since I've seen his explosion after feeling stuck (and been ejected).

[khall]

so it was a general statement to all who might have read it. just remember 99.9 % of the time we get the horse that we deserve.

I still do not agree with this statement. While I do think we as riders can make some changes with the horses we ride I do not think we can ultimately change their innate character. Does that mean we as riders should not always strive to be better? Absolutely not. Do I think it makes me a cookie cutter rider because I want to own a horse that has that innate motor? No and to be honest I’m rather offended by that statement. I know how much time and effort and money it takes to do horses. Why not choose one that is most compatible with us as riders? So while I did not choose joplin I bred her with specifics in mind. And I got exactly what I wanted. Very very different than the WBs I’ve bred owned and raised for over 30 yrs.

It’s just flat easier to ride and work on our own equitation riding a horse with that willingness to go.

[Kirby's Keeper]

I agree with that quote SF. What I think is happening is that in putting your left leg back to guard against Tesla swinging her butt left, you aren't just moving your left leg from the hip but you are moving the whole hip back and overbalancing on the left side of the saddle. We all have some pelvic asymmetry. As a Bowen Therapist I have become more aware of these issues and how they influence how we ride. The students I teach are all older adult amateurs. Asking them to rotate their upper body from the waist to ride a bended line wasn't getting the result. When I got them to realign their pelvis they immediately got results. It only takes an adjustment of 1/2 inch or less with each hip to make a huge difference.

I thought about this riding my other horse today. I was in a jumping saddle, so it might be slightly different in a dressage saddle, but both horses tend to fall in on the right shoulder, and I do tend to go over to the left to compensate, however, I think my seatbone is sliding more to the left rather than back, and the correction is more inside knee to keep the shoulders over and under me, as well as keeping my back right ribs more pulled together so my left front rib doesn't collapse in.

SF, instead of trying to move Tesla under your center of balance, try shifting your seat over her center of balance. Especially with a greenbean, you have be correctly centered and balanced in order for the horse to be balanced under you. By being over balanced to her left side you are asking her to bend left while trying to go right. Her right shoulder pops and she is unable to move away from your attempt correct her with your left leg. Correcting this now will pay dividends later for canter departs and flying changes.

I think that Chisamba's comment about "getting the horse you deserve" was meant to mean you are "getting what you are asking for from the horse". Your seat is asking for left bend while your brain thinks asking for right. We are not trying to pick you apart. We are trying to help and sometimes it is small changes in the rider that have the greatest impact on the horse. I think every rider falls into this trap every so often. I know from my own riding that if I correct myself the horse quickly changes, relaxes and gives a sigh as if to say "Well, you finally figured it out."

[StraightForward]

I guess I am not seeing it. If the shoulders are falling in relative to the haunches, not moving the shoulders out will just get me a horse that is moving with the LH out, not a horse that is bending in the direction of travel? I've been watching her on the lunge more closely now that lunging isn't just a survival of the fittest type endeavor, and she definitely pushes her LH a little out and to the side of her body, so it is going to push her diagonally onto her RF. I've always learned that it is more correct to get the shoulders positioned in front of the haunches so that the rear wheel drive can function correctly.

With my other horse, if I ensure I'm centered in the saddle, the next step is to get the shoulders over to create alignment. There won't be successful bend as long as the OH is not stepping under the center of mass.

I'm not disagreeing that I need to be balanced over the horse, but I don't see the way to achieving it the same. Maybe something is lost in the typed communication though.

[khall]

KK still do not agree. Try riding my big WB or even his much smaller sister who does not have that innate motor in them. I see the same in Tesla. The rider has to train that in them yet there is only so much training will change with these horses. You canter on Gaila then stop riding she is going to just quit on you. Will she get better. Some but forward or lack of that thought will always be her MO.

I do agree with weight and in fact I will try to keep my seat very dynamic especially riding a green horse using my weight so they will shift under the rider. That does not change the fact that Tesla still goes like she has a handbrake on and that is her MO.

TK I feel for you. Rip has been known to be pretty damn explosive too. I don’t get on when he’s that hetted up. I let him get it out on line. Jillian Kreinbring got to see him in all his glory the first time I rode with her. She was wide eyed and amazed at his high jinx

SF it will get better!! I’m glad Tesla just stops and does not go the exploding route. That does make it a bit easier. That is why I suggested counter bending her to put the outside hind under in the corner. That is how I’ve been taught to address a horse that slides out Or if the cannot actually counter bend make the corner into straight lines not a curve. Have two shorter turns to keep the shoulders in line.

[Ryeissa]

I guess I am not seeing it. If the shoulders are falling in relative to the haunches, not moving the shoulders out will just get me a horse that is moving with the LH out, not a horse that is bending in the direction of travel? I've been watching her on the lunge more closely now that lunging isn't just a survival of the fittest type endeavor, and she definitely pushes her LH a little out and to the side of her body, so it is going to push her diagonally onto her RF. I've always learned that it is more correct to get the shoulders positioned in front of the haunches so that the rear wheel drive can function correctly.

With my other horse, if I ensure I'm centered in the saddle, the next step is to get the shoulders over to create alignment. There won't be successful bend as long as the OH is not stepping under the center of mass.

I'm not disagreeing that I need to be balanced over the horse, but I don't see the way to achieving it the same. Maybe something is lost in the typed communication though.

I think you are very centered as far as you are a nicely balanced rider, but not getting the inside to outside connection. I think that is creating a horse that isn't on the aids there fore you can't guide and shape the alignment laterally and longitudinally

I think you might want to experiment with the shoulder fore feeling to get the diagonal energy

Also, for the haunches I would try a little outside guarding hip and upper leg- that can be enough to support a green horse

But this feels like a very disjointed thread, so I have no idea what is really the main topic.

I would still not coutnerbend- that would make this all worse IMHO.

[Ryeissa]

Rye, this horse is very green and doesn't know much about contact, so there really isn't a contact to throw away and trying to take contact in that moment would ensure that she stopped. However, the lunging in side reins is working out really well, and I'm optimistic that it will transfer into the riding well. I remember you saying that you don't work with young horses, so I'm not sure if you've ridden a horse through this stage?

Right, I'm talking about a green horse.

Yes, I have ridden tons of green horses, in fact that is where I spent most of my time. 30+ horses or so

My advice is working more for helping Tesla find the connection by using the SF and LY ideas. you have to provide some context for the horse. Its more about helping shape the position of the horse to be straight. A whole body idea....Like I said both lateral and longitudinal

More transitions and circles could help....

[Ryeissa]

Sure, if this was my horse I would start with vet work. It's great if you don't have those problems. The horse looks uneven in several areas of the film to me. But to each their own. I like to be wrong with these things.

And yes, horses all push back. All of them

Let's let straitforward answer, ok? its her thread. I am just curious what the background is on this horse,

Rye, I know what you mean with the unevenness, but I honestly think it is due to energy blockages in her body and not being fully forward so there is a sort of hesitation. She doesn't have much background - I've owned her since she was 2.5, she had a coffin joint OCD removed spring of her 3 year old year and had multiple follow-up lameness exams afterwards, and the surgeon, who is one of the better local lameness vets as well, was very happy with how she was going. Stifle and hock radiographs were perfect when I got her, no known injuries. She did have a reaction to shots spring of her 3 year old year, and I think there has been some residual tightness or something in her neck (or maybe the shot reaction wasn't the source, but I've been slowly working on her ability to bend and produce right flexion). When I started cantering her to the right more on the lunge, she would sort of snake and shake her neck out, but that has been decreasing each lunging session. She gets bodywork about monthly and I have been using SureFoot pads with her a few times a week.

Ok, that's good.... Remember as a professional MT I start with the body physically, so this isn't meant as any slam or negativity.
Have you tried PEMF or any of that sort of therapy? I hire someone to do that on my horse- it can help with the physical blockages- my horse is quite hot and sensitive too.

[StraightForward]

Ok, that's good.... Remember as a professional MT I start with the body physically, so this isn't meant as any slam or negativity.
Have you tried PEMF or any of that sort of therapy? I hire someone to do that on my horse- it can help with the physical blockages- my horse is quite hot and sensitive too.

The person who I use for PEMF does not like to use it on younger horses. She has used her laser on Tesla's neck, and as I said, that is improving. The other bodyworker that works on both of my girls approximately monthly does not use any machines.

[StraightForward]

Right, I'm talking about a green horse.

Yes, I have ridden tons of green horses, in fact that is where I spent most of my time. 30+ horses or so

Well I pretty distinctly remember you saying the opposite. Went looking back in fall 2019 when you made a comment that my horse was probably in pain because she was kicking at the whip, but you've deleted all of your posts in that thread, so I guess it will remain a mystery.

[Flight]

Interesting that it's not just mares, thanks everyone!

You know what, I think I would try nothing. From what I read in your first post, with her anticipating canter, you trying to keep her LH connected with your outside leg and and she's pushed against that and jacked up. When she starts to think about stopping (you can see it happening, and you definitely feel it) you start at her with your spur and she just gets defensive. I don't mean this as a criticism, it's what we all think of to do! I do it! But what I've started to realise when you need to use more pressure then something's not working and you actually need to think about it a different way. Horses do these things for a reason, and sometimes it's just their confidence. In your horses case, it might be just the thought of cantering that she's not confident with.

I would truly try no leg on at all, let her stop and then guide her back into going again. Be gentle and patient, take time. She trots along quite nicely in between. I would do more walk and halt breaks too with no pressure on her whatsoever when she's done some of that nice trot while you are fixing this issue.

If this doesn't work, as soon as I started to feel her thinking about stopping I'd do a rein slap over the saddle/boot or a swoosh with the whip in the air to startle her thoughts out of it. Not tapping/hitting her or kicking as that causes the defensive bracing in her body which will slow down/stop her.

Now I know you might think neither of these are a good idea, and that's fine too. You know the horse, this is just my interpretation from a short video.

[StraightForward]

I would truly try no leg on at all, let her stop and then guide her back into going again. Be gentle and patient, take time. She trots along quite nicely in between. I would do more walk and halt breaks too with no pressure on her whatsoever when she's done some of that nice trot while you are fixing this issue.

That is sort of how I've gotten her through some of this in the past. And trust me everyone, the stopping in this video is really mild and I would have been very happy with this ride 6-8 weeks ago. Basically pre-empting her idea to stop by doing a down transition and then going again. It didn't seem like she really go truly forward with the shorter bits of trotting, but it at least warmed her up without building tension/blockage, but now that I am expecting her to move out more quickly on the lunge it is probably realistic to ask for it under saddle as well. I've also made the mistake of too-long walk breaks where she decides she's done, and the stopping shows up at the end of what was until then a good ride. It is very much a Golidlocks situation.

[Ryeissa]

Right, I'm talking about a green horse.

Yes, I have ridden tons of green horses, in fact that is where I spent most of my time. 30+ horses or so

Well I pretty distinctly remember you saying the opposite. Went looking back in fall 2019 when you made a comment that my horse was probably in pain because she was kicking at the whip, but you've deleted all of your posts in that thread, so I guess it will remain a mystery.

??? I don't know, I think I have always said I spent most of my time on green horses..... Rye was very green. I have tremendous guilt thinking my horse was being bad and kicking at the whip when it was actually medical issue.

I regret that now, but if you can feel ethical then you don't have to explain yourself to anyone.

This is all feeling very personal and weird so I'm not going to continue. I have no idea what you want from this thread. I am super busy with my showing now so I won't be back.

[StraightForward]

Thanks all, it was interesting to have time to read back through this thread in one sitting. I've also been digesting some of the info in the context of riding Annabelle and re-addressing some position issues that I've worked on, and then let slip a bit. Tesla is continuing to go better with the lunging in SRs, so I am actually going to experiment with riding her in a loosely adjusted running martingale for a little bit if I can find the old that should be somewhere in my box of random horse junk. Oddly she just goes better when she is put in a little bit of a box, so I'm hopeful that this will keep her on the straight and narrow a bit more.

This is all feeling very personal and weird so I'm not going to continue. I have no idea what you want from this thread. I am super busy with my showing now so I won't be back.

No, it's not weird. I responded on how I may or may not incorporate nearly all the ideas that have been put forth, including both heddylamar and tlkidding's comments about contact that shared their personal experience and perspective, which provided more context and nuance than your advice to "shorten your reins!" However, since you decided to reference your earlier posts a second time, I addressed my reason for taking them with a grain of salt. And I specifically remember the comment in the previous thread because another poster mentioned it to me as weird (unprompted by me). It is not personal, I am not stalking you. Enjoy your show!

[Sue B]

So back to Tesla...Because lunging in sidereins helps her, I second your thought on having her more "up" and "in a box." I know that it in Tio's case it helps him stay up and focused. I also second the opinion that you be careful to not "nag' with your legs...very easy to do with these types of horses as you well know. Let me assure you, you and she will get through this, probably very quickly. Tio now responds to just a light squeeze or brush of my leg 99% of the time and he is wonderfully soft and steady in the contact. Sidereins helped him a ton, especially earlier, and I still use them on occasions when I think his brain may not be attuned to mine. I have to admit, i have not allowed him to stretch long and low until the last couple years, and even then he can only maintain good balance for a relatively short time. Very different from my TB's

[StraightForward]

Well, I've had a chance to ride three times now, using the running martingale:

First ride there were several stops, but it got better and we ended up on a good note. I definitely made sure to turn early before that problematic corner so I had somewhere to turn her towards the left to avert spinouts. Sometimes we ride to the right towards that corner then I turn left and reverse out of the corner so that she weights her left hind and it breaks up her anticipation pattern.

Yesterday was quite good. It was a little cold and breezy, and there was something going on at the riding club that is within earshot/eyesight of our barn, so that kept her energized, and I don't think we had any stall outs, or maybe there was one. Achieved at least half a circle of canter in both directions and used more changes of bend and short walk breaks. FWIW, the martingale was adjusted shorter yesterday; after I started riding I thought it was shorter than I wanted, but I didn't want to get off and change it and have her think she was done.

Today was more of a mixed bag in that there were a couple stops, including at a different spot going left towards the long side. We did get probably the best left lead canter ever, and made it around two times, including where she wanted to stall out returning to the long side. But she was quite nicely forward in the trot work and went right back to work after the short walk breaks. She was still marching briskly forward at the end of the ride without being pushed, so it seemed like she might even be enjoying herself. I'm thinking the trot circles to the left will help her strengthen the left hind and carry better, so I am going to focus on that, and continuing to get control over her haunches and shoulders while going to the right. One thing I did was ride more point to point so each short side was 3 straight segments rather than half of a circle to the right. This helped me keep her haunches behind her, and I could get her shoulders aligned and use a little counterbending with a small adjustment if it came to that.

Here she is going freely forward. I don't think the trot lengthenings are going to be a big challenge. I am not necessarily aiming for this trot all the time, but just trying to find the sweet spot where she doesn't have any of that stuck in molasses feeling happening. Tomorrow we're going for a saddle fitting, then I think I'll lunge for a few more days and keep plugging away and using many of these suggestions as we go.

[khall]

That’s great update SF! Tesla definitely has talent for lengthenings:)
Glad the suggestions helped.

Something Cedar had me working with Joplin that might help you with Tesla was to ask for flexion first one side then the other to help with the connection. Worked well.

[StraightForward]

Funny Khall, I was using that on Annabelle yesterday and it really helped the stuck I to the left rein thing I've been getting the last week or two.

[demi]

Nice forward, SF.

[heddylamar]

Gorgeous trot! Keep channeling that energy for good

[Chisamba]

that lovely picture also tells a little something about your horse. though 3 feet are suspended, the left front is still slightly grounded.

to me this is warning you that her neck and head position is in the way. 2 ways to consider helping. stay in the low frame but ride the nose forward, or slightly raise the neck.

it is possible that her difficulty with canter is because she is blocking herself and needs to be a bit more open to take a canter transition.

as always, just a thought to consider.

[StraightForward]

Good observation! Here are a couple screen grabs from earlier moments. She will curl pretty easily and then do these crazy shoulder reaches, and she definitely gets over her grounded leg too much. So here is one where she was going in what is probably a more ideal frame, then she curled and did the Tesla Stomp (I regret not giving her the barn name of Thumper) with a was starting to uncurl again in the first photo.

[khall]

SF does Tesla do this at bugs? My OTTB g would slap a leg at butterflies

You could teach her Spanish trot pretty easy!!

[StraightForward]

Not really at bugs, it seems to happen when she is thinking, or a little impatient, or pretty much any time. She will do it at the walk when she is being lead to turnout, and she has even done it once or twice on the lunge in the canter which is... interesting. I would be afraid to teach her Spanish Walk because I think she might never quit.

Now that I am looking at this sequence again, I think I was riding in a touch more forward position, and then felt her come onto the forehand to achieve the curl and stomp, and so I came up a little more vertical to drive her out of it, and she complied and went forward instead of sticking.

[piedmontfields]

I just want to say that I find SF's openness and sharing of process and progress really helpful. Horses are very individual, even as we use core principles to help them develop and learn. I do appreciate the helpful thoughts, photos and reflections.

I am pretty sobered by the WB comments though---no wonder I like a lot of blood in my horses! lol But then I look at developed Warmbloods and am in awe!!

[StraightForward]

Well she executed the Tesla Stomp at the canter today. That was a different feeling!

[khall]

When my TB would do that leg fling it would jar my back!

Piedmont there absolutely are lovely WBs out there. Though I’m like you and prefer more blood in the mix which is why Rip’s dam and Joplin’s dam were much lighter rides. They were/are half TB. Bloodlines play a part for sure. Rip and Gaila are by Paparazzo who is by Pilot known for throwing difficult and challenging offspring. Mark did tell me if I ever went Iberian I would never go back. He was right. Yet I will always judge the horse that is in front of me every time.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I like Tesla's pointed lip in the photo. She's concentrating ha ha. So cute.

Glad you are working through all this, SF.

[StraightForward]

Updated videos from our lesson today. Cantering was off the table due to having a sarcoid removed from her chest and hence no martingale. She is doing so well with lunging now that I was actually able to carry on a conversation while warming her up W/T/C both ways before our ride. We were getting close to over the hump with the cantering before the sarcoid surgery, so I think we will get there soon. On the right turns, I'm stepping into the left stirrup, but trying not to let my body shift left, starting to get a little of the idea of moving off of both legs, and had a bit of a lightbulb that she could bend right at the very end of the Figure 8 video, which is where we left it for the day.

Homework until next month is to do a trot reprise, down transition, then immediately trot off again a few strides before allowing a break. Then when we're back to cantering again, do the trot reprise, go into canter for a few strides, and then give a walk break, sometimes with another short trot burst to keep her guessing. Also lots of changes of direction, which I plan to start putting into a more structured pattern soon. Poles also seem to be helping her let go a bit in the back and hence be less tight and resistant to the aids.

https://youtu.be/a-wXL7IL_SI

https://youtu.be/GQClEZoqG64

[Ryeissa]

Updated videos from our lesson today. Cantering was off the table due to having a sarcoid removed from her chest and hence no martingale. She is doing so well with lunging now that I was actually able to carry on a conversation while warming her up W/T/C both ways before our ride. We were getting close to over the hump with the cantering before the sarcoid surgery, so I think we will get there soon. On the right turns, I'm stepping into the left stirrup, but trying not to let my body shift left, starting to get a little of the idea of moving off of both legs, and had a bit of a lightbulb that she could bend right at the very end of the Figure 8 video, which is where we left it for the day.

Homework until next month is to do a trot reprise, down transition, then immediately trot off again a few strides before allowing a break. Then when we're back to cantering again, do the trot reprise, go into canter for a few strides, and then give a walk break, sometimes with another short trot burst to keep her guessing. Also lots of changes of direction, which I plan to start putting into a more structured pattern soon. Poles also seem to be helping her let go a bit in the back and hence be less tight and resistant to the aids.

https://youtu.be/a-wXL7IL_SI

https://youtu.be/GQClEZoqG64

nice! Much better! Still too much bend to the outside, but nice work!

[chantal]

The slower cadence/tempo is great, looking good! And she is getting the hang of the poles. I love poles!! Slow the front, keep the hind moving, and go, lift off! I like the way she is working in the new videos.

I've had issues with my inside leg to outside rein connection, my issues and he totally took advantage of it. No spinning and stopping but going through the outside, left shoulder and just getting ugly. It's become his evasion of choice when working too hard. Similar to chisamba, we'll go by something 20 times but the 21st time he throws a fit. And yes, it could be because I get too intense, he needs to know I'm happy, or it could be that he's getting tired and this is hard and SQUIRREL. I have to keep my inside elbow but not block him and use my outside leg and keep my outside contact. I have a couple of pictures of my outside rein with a huge loop in it at the canter. Ugh. It's getting better.

Hoping maybe some of that might relate to what you are dealing with. He just turned 7, so there's that.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Lots of improvement! You guys look good. I'm glad things are progressing along with her.

[Ryeissa]

My two cents from amateur hour
- I would shorten the reins about 1". The reins MIGHT be at the point were they are too long for this stage in her development. It might just be a touch past the "point of best influence" (my term) where the bit sits at the corner of her mouth and you have the right harmony. This will help you not have so much nose to the outside. When I had green horses they didn't get to stretch this much till they were 1st level and could lift the shoulder.

-Like the tempo, but needs more energy. Same BPM, more power. That will help the contact/straightness
I think she is trained enough to start stepping up a bit as you guide her around your scuplting aids.

[Sue B]

Don't know if this will help you, SF, or if it's even helping Tio, but...for the last month, I have been doing road work with the T. We do a minimum of 1 mile trot sets (sometimes as long as 2 miles) without stopping, over uneven ground as our warmup. 1) I am wanting to increase his aerobic capacity/endurance, 2) I am working on my own fitness, and 3) I'm trying to improve trot quality by getting better swing and forward. I plan on videoing in another month or so to see if what I'm feeling translates into actual improvement. I do know that Tio LOVES this portion of his work even going up steep hills or trying to negotiate very uneven ground without tripping (he hates to trip.) Eventually, I will add in some canter sets as well. he has had zero stall-outs since starting this program (although he did have a bit of a crow-hopping event the other day out in the field next door )

[StraightForward]

My two cents from amateur hour
- I would shorten the reins about 1". The reins MIGHT be at the point were they are too long for this stage in her development. It might just be a touch past the "point of best influence" (my term) where the bit sits at the corner of her mouth and you have the right harmony. This will help you not have so much nose to the outside. When I had green horses they didn't get to stretch this much till they were 1st level and could lift the shoulder.

-Like the tempo, but needs more energy. Same BPM, more power. That will help the contact/straightness
I think she is trained enough to start stepping up a bit as you guide her around your scuplting aids.

I agree that more power is needed. We were underpowered here due to concern for the stitches in her chest. What I've found with her though, is that it works best to make small forward asks and then settle. If I go in with a demand she WILL push back, so I can either pick a fight, or if she is already being mostly agreeable, make the changes by small degrees and get the responses to be more automatic over time. She is still stepping to the outside with her left hind, which coincidentally has a funky hoof shape with the outside flared and the inside quite upright (I've been making improvements to it over time), so I think it's a self-reinforcing cycle of that foot not supporting as well on the medial side, and her not wanting to weight it as much. Right now I'm more focused on getting her to ground that LH as she circles right, so that there is a supporting leg from which to start bringing the shoulders out and bending the body. If I go directly to asking for bend, the haunches will really start to spin out. It is even difficult for her to do a walk/halt transition without her haunches falling out left. Also addressing this with easy LY to the wall thinking of leading more with the shoulders so the LH lands more under the body.

Sue - the only place we can ride out from home is about a 1/2 mile of canal bank. Might be a possibility in the fall when they drain the canal, but right now wouldn't trust either girl not to take us for a swim with the geese landing in the water constantly! She has already gotten more fit though, and the cavaletti work seems to perk her up, so we will keep doing that, and maybe incorporate some cross-rails starting in a month or two.

[khall]

SF that is much better with Tesla but yeah that left bend is odd. As in the bend left going right. Do you do any in hand lateral work with her? Even with my green as grass youngsters they all do lateral wih. But still good that she is coming to the table even if she’s not fully ready to sit down and join the conversation completely. Not easy I know.

[Ryeissa]

My two cents from amateur hour
- I would shorten the reins about 1". The reins MIGHT be at the point were they are too long for this stage in her development. It might just be a touch past the "point of best influence" (my term) where the bit sits at the corner of her mouth and you have the right harmony. This will help you not have so much nose to the outside. When I had green horses they didn't get to stretch this much till they were 1st level and could lift the shoulder.

-Like the tempo, but needs more energy. Same BPM, more power. That will help the contact/straightness
I think she is trained enough to start stepping up a bit as you guide her around your scuplting aids.

I agree that more power is needed. We were underpowered here due to concern for the stitches in her chest. What I've found with her though, is that it works best to make small forward asks and then settle. If I go in with a demand she WILL push back, so I can either pick a fight, or if she is already being mostly agreeable, make the changes by small degrees and get the responses to be more automatic over time. She is still stepping to the outside with her left hind, which coincidentally has a funky hoof shape with the outside flared and the inside quite upright (I've been making improvements to it over time), so I think it's a self-reinforcing cycle of that foot not supporting as well on the medial side, and her not wanting to weight it as much. Right now I'm more focused on getting her to ground that LH as she circles right, so that there is a supporting leg from which to start bringing the shoulders out and bending the body. If I go directly to asking for bend, the haunches will really start to spin out. It is even difficult for her to do a walk/halt transition without her haunches falling out left. Also addressing this with easy LY to the wall thinking of leading more with the shoulders so the LH lands more under the body.

Sue - the only place we can ride out from home is about a 1/2 mile of canal bank. Might be a possibility in the fall when they drain the canal, but right now wouldn't trust either girl not to take us for a swim with the geese landing in the water constantly! She has already gotten more fit though, and the cavaletti work seems to perk her up, so we will keep doing that, and maybe incorporate some cross-rails starting in a month or two.

yeah, the power I am talking about comes from the seat/pelvis- not really anything agressive. I don't think a demand is warranted unless the horse is really dead and things need to escalate. I have a super sensitive horse too, so I have to be careful.

[StraightForward]

I think even when an aid is subtle, it is still a demand, if there is intent to back it up. So it can be a mild seat or leg aid, but if the horse blows it off, you can either choose to take no for an answer, or be prepared to elevate the demand. What I look for with her at this stage is to push just a little forward when I think she'll be receptive to the demand (a little flick with my flapper-end whip seems to be most effective). She is very sensitive, but also capable of blocking out a wildly high level of pressure when she puts her mind to it, so finding the moments with the best chance of a positive response, and then building on that until it is habitual is my strategy. Of course sometimes she decides to go for the block and I have to be willing to escalate in that moment (a couple weeks ago I had to ride one-handed a few times and whack her butt as she was stalling out from the canter and blocking out my seat and leg).

SF that is much better with Tesla but yeah that left bend is odd. As in the bend left going right. Do you do any in hand lateral work with her? Even with my green as grass youngsters they all do lateral wih. But still good that she is coming to the table even if she’s not fully ready to sit down and join the conversation completely. Not easy I know.

Yes, I've done a little bit. She is quite easy to move sideways on the ground, though I need to spend more time in the bridle working on SI from the ground. I really think there was something going on in her neck from when she had her vaccination reaction two years ago, and it is taking time to work it out. That seems to happen most when she is stretching forward going right, and of course that gets lost if I push more in other areas and allow any tension to build. I was doing a sort of Masterson cervical flexions/flexions in the bridle blend from the ground and getting a lot of tension release out of the right side of her neck over the past year, and it's not nearly as dramatic now. I see her releasing it when she lets go over the back and starts cantering more forward on the lunge line, it is just taking time. Now that she is five, I should schedule a PEMF session to see if that helps loosen things up (bodyworker, prefers not to use her machine on younger horses that are more growthy).

Just for perspective, this was 3 weeks ago, and why I am not going looking for a fight while we're sans martingale.

[Sue B]

It's too bad you don't have a safe place to ride out. I think you are making tremendous progress, nonetheless, and in another year this most likely won't be an issue anymore. She does sound so much like Tio in attitude and reaction. On the one hand "less is more" but on the other hand you still have to teach them that "forward is the best way out of any situation!" Up until a year or two ago, Tio reacted to any tap of the whip by slowing. down. It was maddening, those days when he had no forward button. Tension seems to be a huge factor in all of this, even though, from a by-standers point of view, these horses look perfectly calm. Jumping and cavelletti were key elements to getting Tio to think forward, maybe because doing that stuff helped him release muscle tension. I too, was going to put a martingale on him, but I couldn't find all the pieces--turns out I loaned part of it to a friend--so I never got round to it. Lunging and ground work in side-reins was also a huge help, which you are doing now. I wrote all this just to let you know that it does get better. I actually really enjoy riding Tio these days; he's soft and super responsive at least 85-90% of the time and he is afraid of NOTHING. I am confident that this would be the easiest horse to show, by far. These "guys" just need a little more time to sort things out mentally and physically. had I not gotten hurt and then had to take care of my mom and all that, Tio would be doing Novice eventing and showing 2nd/3rd level.

[StraightForward]

Thanks Sue, I also agree that it's a tension thing in large part.

Someone told me a few years ago that training a WB is like riding a cross between a dinosaur and a giraffe, and you just have to be willing to go out and do the same thing every day. You might not think anything is happening, but it is.

[demi]

I like the latest vids, SF. I think you’re doing a good job. We all know that mares (especially the sensitive red heads!) can be tricky. Sensitive, potentially explosive horses, need a lot of tact and I’ve gotten the feeling watching you with both of your mares, that you are a very tactful rider.

And i think about what Chisamba said in another recent thread about taking time in training. And what you just said about riding a WB...”you might not think anything is happening, but it is”. Keep taking your time!

I also think you have very good hands and I enjoy watching you ride!

[Ryeissa]

you just have to be willing to go out and do the same thing every day. You might not think anything is happening, but it is.

thats every horse....

[piedmontfields]

Someone told me a few years ago that training a WB is like riding a cross between a dinosaur and a giraffe, and you just have to be willing to go out and do the same thing every day. You might not think anything is happening, but it is.

That's a pretty smart comment! I like your recent videos and how the big serpentine work helps. Like Ponichiwa suggested, it can help keep a less workaholic horse together to give them more things to do that require a full circle of the aids to intersect with her (and it can calm the busy bees). Tesla is really a lovely horse and looks to have the potential to be a very powerful mover. And you ride her well.

[mari]

Someone told me a few years ago that training a WB is like riding a cross between a dinosaur and a giraffe, and you just have to be willing to go out and do the same thing every day. You might not think anything is happening, but it is.

Odin being in "dinosaur mode" is a thing. Thought my instructor had coined that phrase For us, it means a lack of submission and a total lack of interest in his passenger.

[Kyra's Mom]

Much improved. Yes, it could be more forward but you had reason not to push it (chest sutures). I thought there were several snippets of developing some nice schwung. All the hard work is paying off.

Susan

[StraightForward]

Weird, I thought I posted an update here earlier, but it seems to be gone.

Anyway, it was good to revisit the last several posts and realize that we are making progress! On Friday I used what is usually my jumping lesson spot with the BO to have her give me ground support for getting Tesla cantering. Yes, she is still pretty sticky with it, though her trot is really improved. Then this morning we had a lesson with my dressage instructor and she came with the whip support from the ground too. I'm definitely not going to push the canter issue when I don't have a ground assistant, but I think we'll get past it in the next month or two. However, she is really starting to do well with the trot work, can cantering much better on the lunge. She is quite forward when we do get her into canter, so I think once the transitions get sorted we'll "be there."

At the end of the lesson today we worked on more of a big girl trot, and it was quite promising. We still need more of that right bend, but it is coming, finding a bit of connection and adjustability.

https://youtu.be/80ZbTAlGGUs