Thoughts on this video?

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Lipsmackerpony88
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Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:36 pm

Hopefully this link will work, it is a Facebook video. https://fb.watch/eyloTPpdfW/

Usually I enjoy J.J. Tates riding and her little video clips. I'm not a part of the academy but I do follow the Facebook group. I know of a trainer that rides with her and loves her. She's also a great trainer herself.

This clip surprised me though. I know it says that it's for horses that are really hesitant with contact, so maybe that's some context that I just don't have experience with.

Has anyone ever done this type of method? I'm not sure how I feel about it. Again I think J.J. Tate seems like an incredibly talented rider and sweet person. I was just surprised to see this I guess and I'm hoping that with all the experience here maybe someone can explain.

Or maybe it's just a method I will put in the "don't need to ever use" box.

khall
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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby khall » Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:53 pm

I think it’s a don’t ever use method. I don’t understand this riding at all. I’ve seen the video before and was shocked quite frankly.

Lipsmackerpony88
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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:16 pm

It's definitely different from what I was expecting.

Not trying to be over critical as I said before I love her little videos most of the time. But I also did a double take at this one.

Even if it is a useful method for very specific circumstances, it strikes me as something that maybe shouldn't be broadcasted for just anybody to try on their own? Idk.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Ryeissa » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:24 pm

Weird. I've been doing biomechanics based lessons since 2014 and this is the complete opposite of what I would ever do. I don't see any valid reason for this....I try to be open minded but this is strange. How unfortunate that its now on a service where people will run out to try it and lead to all kinds of problems.
JJ seems to be a nice rider, but not impressed with this. I don't see myself using her as a resource in the future

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:39 pm

Ryeissa, yeah I would be very concerned about beginner riders trying this out. Easily could translate into bad habits and riding and even could be dangerous imo.

So odd.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Tanga » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:49 pm

Eh. Ok, but it's missing the most important part--coming from behind. If you just hold in front and the horse isn't moving through from behind to give into it, what's the point?

I forgot she is a DeKunffy lover. I can't stand him. He lived around here for a long time and did some L programs, and I had one with him. Ugh. He always said things that sounded reality cool, but in reality don't work. I'm old enough to know people when he first came over here at 18 or so, after being a groom, and saying he had all of this experience. He was able to be a judge before any actual riding and show experience was required. He's like the French guy that was around here and wrote Riding into the Light or something, and a complete BS artists selling books and clinics to people.

This is a demonstration of exactly why. If the horse needs a lesson in this, I can see maybe doing this WITH impulsion from behind to teach the horse to give over the back. This is no different than yahoos tying the reins to the girth and leaving the horse to "learn to give." I always equate this with trying to "teach" someone to do the splits by sitting on their shoulders until they "learn to give."

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:56 pm

Tanga, yeah I can see some beginner getting a hold of a video like this and ruining their horse!
It's just really seems like something I want to put on a video out to the public. If something like this is needed it really seems like the kind of thing you would teach somebody that's in your program and that you're definitely watching over. And I agree that it focuses too much on the front end. I mean she talks about using her inside leg too but the focus is on her upper body and the inside rein.

Charles De Knuffy doesn't work for my mind although some of the things J.J. Tate does. I know a lot of really good riders and trainers that ride with her with much success. I'm not going to totally discount her ability or knowledge but this is definitely an odd video.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:38 am

Anyone who knows me already knows that I despise sitting heavy and leaning back. I have spent my riding life trying to sit in as inviting a way possible on the horses back to encourage a permeable connection front to back.
Do I ever take a double half halt with still hands, yes I admit I do, but with a very active leg to teach the horse to step up into the give.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby blob » Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:55 am

I don't disagree with the notion that sometimes you need your hands to be side reins--still and consistent and perhaps even a bit wide for the horse to find a steady place. But that also requires moving the horse forward and doesn't require leaning back or sitting heavy. Keeping your position, sure, but not creating a defensive position

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Ryeissa » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:10 pm

this whole video still confuses me on many levels.

Lipsmackerpony88
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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:10 pm

I think the sitting back and really anchoring her arm like that was what surprised me the most.

Well anyways, this video will go in the discard pile for me. Thanks for the discussion guys.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Chisamba » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:31 pm

This is a tangent, but did you see the video of Charlotte Casriagi opening the Chanel haute couture show in a Chanel jacket on her lovely horse. The horse was quiet calm and admirable, but there are so many comments accusing from rollkur to poor mouth , and zero evidence of discomfort to the horse. I say this because I see a huge ignorant uprising against riding by people who know eff all. That bothers me far more than jj or charles..

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:23 pm

Chisamba wrote:This is a tangent, but did you see the video of Charlotte Casriagi opening the Chanel haute couture show in a Chanel jacket on her lovely horse. The horse was quiet calm and admirable, but there are so many comments accusing from rollkur to poor mouth , and zero evidence of discomfort to the horse. I say this because I see a huge ignorant uprising against riding by people who know eff all. That bothers me far more than jj or charles..

I did not see that. But that doesn't surprise me cuz I do think people especially on Facebook expect perfection at all times. Perfection that I don't think actually exist.

I hope that's not how my post is coming across here about J.J. Tate. It really was just a much different video than I was used to seeing from her and was kind of curious about it.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby demi » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:23 pm

Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting the vid, LSP.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Kyras_Mom » Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:30 pm

I don’t like holding or setting anything when riding. I don’t use side reins. If I want to influence my horse, I use long reins that I can easily give, yield or reward as needed. It might work on a big stoic WB but I don’t think my little sensitive, reactive off breed mare would appreciate that.

quote="Lipsmackerpony88"]Ryeissa, yeah I would be very concerned about beginner riders trying this out. Easily could translate into bad habits and riding and even could be dangerous imo.

So odd.[/quote]

I can see that too and feel for the poor horse.

Susan

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Flight
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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Flight » Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:26 pm

Chisamba wrote:Anyone who knows me already knows that I despise sitting heavy and leaning back. I have spent my riding life trying to sit in as inviting a way possible on the horses back to encourage a permeable connection front to back.
Do I ever take a double half halt with still hands, yes I admit I do, but with a very active leg to teach the horse to step up into the give.


It took my instructor ages to get me to give up the habit of sitting heavy/back. Plus I'm no lightweight. In one of my recent lessons you can see the effect it had when she told me to sit more forward. I'll see if I can find it.

Sometimes you have to do remedial things to show horses what you want, but I agree, a single vid like this can be detrimental.

Lipsmackerpony88
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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:04 am

In contrast I enjoyed this video although I'm not sure what everyone else would think about it I guess. To me it's pretty basic but it's the kind of video that I think is helpful to be put into the public.
https://fb.watch/eAbddYkbdd/

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:56 pm

I have held my tongue, in part because "putting a video out in public" is something available for trainers or so-called trainers of all types and persuasions to do. There isn't some grand review board approving public release! :D That said, this is a short clip from a longer video that JJ produced for her subscription program. The short clips are not complete and do not include the "fully story" of whatever is being introduced. I am generally a fan of JJ's training approach, but of course everything is up for discussion and reflection.

Now for the content: Have I seen Charles and JJ teach this to novice dressage riders? Yes. Why did they do it? *My* sense was that it was a way to provide rapid clarity around the coordination of quiet hands (with one hand attached to thigh to provide some stability) and a connected seat. It seemed to make the most impression on students who did not have a dressage seat at all (no connection through sitbones) and who thought that sawing hands were needed to put a horse's head down.

I've seen people learn from this introduction, but I've also seen people just reproduce this approach for all of their riding (which is no bueno). It is really just a teaching tool from my understanding.

Similarly, my understanding of having seen the heavy seat taught is that it is really for people who are perched and have no connection down their torso to their sitbones. It is intended as a learning/teaching tool--not a lifestyle. Personally, I will use that heavy seat when a horse really leans on me, with a strong sit/leg/little release forward. I really can't tolerate leaning or pulling, so I tend to deal with that very sharply. And I agree, horses generally don't want that heavy seat, so they listen!

That said, I'm no expert and I don't expect to like everything or to use the same tools in all settings. You all are a thoughtful group and are well equipped to think through various approaches for the good of the horse and your training.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Lipsmackerpony88 » Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:09 pm

Piedmontfields,

Thank you so much for a little more insight! That does make sense and I certainly am not meaning to bash her by any means. But as you said it's a small clip of a bigger video and without the whole context to definitely caught my attention in a different way. I still stand by the fact that it probably should not be put out in a short clip like this to the general public but that's not for me to decide I suppose! I just think it could be used badly and some things need a much bigger context.

Thank you for clearing it up a little bit! I really appreciate that. I enjoyed the discussion.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Srhorselady » Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:46 pm

Just $.02 to add to the discussion. About 30 years ago I audited a John Lyons Clinic that taught something very similar. In fact the whole first day of a five day clinic was on setting your hand on the thigh and waiting for the horse to release before proceeding. So not a new or solely dressage technique.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby Ryeissa » Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:06 pm

yeah, I can think of 10 ways that someone could teach quiet hands while not screwing around like this- methods that maintain proper seat and core (my premise and understanding is that the horse will respond in balance if the rider is in balance)
After all, someone will have to maintain the feeling with all the alignments in place.
I've HAD those lessons! many.

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Re: Thoughts on this video?

Postby tlkidding » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:43 pm

I totally see this video for the riders who are super wishy-washy with their aids and don't have a strong or stable position. Also those who "follow" too much with the elbows and hands - like they immediately toss away the connection once the horse touches the bit or comes round. A lot of times they think they are being kind or rewarding the horse.

I am being told often in my lessons with my young horse to "be the side reins" because I know I can fix his connection with a little wiggle or take but we really need him to find the connection himself. My hands just need to be there and use my leg to get him forward and then one leg or the other to create a little bend or yielding.

The heavy seat I can see working for people with weak cores who don't keep their back and abs engaged and can easily get yanked around by a rooter. They often don't even realize it's happening until someone points it out.

I don't hate this video and don't think it's that bad. I would hope the whole video would have more/better explanation for the scenarios to try this and what to avoid.


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