March (and April) of Progress

[mari]

Tanga - I think your frustration is justified. I saw a lot of correctness in your test, but again, I am currently at Elem-Med (3rd level in US terms I think?) so I'm not hugely confident in my opinion.

[exvet]

I too would be frustrated, confused and wondering WTF? Tanga. As you well know, I have struggled with much of the same over the years with my multiple Welsh Cobs and crosses. I can't say that I'm completely shocked though because of my experience and what seems to be the 'emphasis' on the overall picture and the ceiling limits all about gaits. As Molly has reminded me, if you get a 55, that just means you're meeting the minimum requirements to be there.................of course she would NEVER be satisfied with such a score. I thought there was a lot to like and agree totally that the final extended canter was very nice. Do you mind if I ask what the collective scores were? As one who has lived my entire riding life on "6" movers I must admit that 62-63 is where I expect my scores to fall with what feels like a 'really good test' no matter the level. I do suspect, though that with more sit and quicker with the hind legs your score would change quite a bit. I have to say that reading your post in light of my upcoming show doesn't do much for alleviating the anxiety or pressure I typically place on myself.

[StraightForward]

Jingles for Maia and Joplin!

T got her intranasal Rhino-Flu yesterday and was at 101.2 when I checked her last night. I'm about to head up and check her temp again and decide if she needs some Banamine.

The last couple rides with her have been pretty good. Still the struggle to produce the first canter, but then it's off to the races. In the meantime I am getting better and getting her more IFL and carrying in a better trot balance, so that's something. I hauled her out on Monday and it was windy as heck so the rollup door on the arena was rattling, and T thought it was definitely a monster trying to get in and eat her, but eventually she settled. The Fager Nils + Micklem bridle seems to be working out really well for her. She was really FDO trotting like a metronome and on the contact. Show-winning TL trot, lol.

A is also nearly back to where she was in December. It just seems to be a matter of riding the lateral work v-e-r-y tactfully so she stays loose over the topline. If not, she gets tight and starts bobbling along looking tense and uneven. Vet watched her trot yesterday when she was in for a dental and thought she looked much better.

[khall]

Jingles for Maia! Dang horses can drive us to drink!

Joplin thankfully is completely back to normal. My pinched nerve though is still causing me issues (*+!!)

Has anyone dealt with a pinched nerve? If so what helped? Meds are not. I’m going to chiropractor and will get a massage too and my holistic DVM gave me acupuncturist to try. Trying to get into PT have to before I can get an mri. Of course no appointments soon. Argh. I’m taking a wide variety of drugs just to function.

[heddylamar]

Has anyone dealt with a pinched nerve? If so what helped? Meds are not. I’m going to chiropractor and will get a massage too and my holistic DVM gave me acupuncturist to try. Trying to get into PT have to before I can get an mri. Of course no appointments soon. Argh. I’m taking a wide variety of drugs just to function.

I have pinched nerves from slipped discs at c5-c6 (horses, then exacerbated by a car accident). I've done all the things over the years, and the magic solution was several rounds of epidural steroids injected into the spinal membrane (yep, they sedated me). It certainly didn't solve anything, but it took me from unable to sleep for nearly three years and existing on muscle relaxers/accupuncture to actually responding to physical therapy and massage. I still do regular stretching and weight lifting to help support the area.

Definitely try accupuncture. That gave me the most short term relief.

[blob]

my dad had a pinched nerve in his neck-- a special pillow, physical therapy, and steriod injections did the trick in relieving the pain and ultimately keeping it away. Physical therapy probably being the the biggest factor in actually relieving the issue and not just the pain

[Moutaineer]

Jingles for Potters. Sitting in the barn waiting for a visit from the poop fairy.

[heddylamar]

Jingles for Potters. Sitting in the barn waiting for a visit from the poop fairy.

Oh geez. What is up with these horses lately?? Poop jingles for Potters!

[khall]

Yeah Joplin’s fever went back up:(. Dang horses.

Jingles Potters produces plenty of manure soon.

[Moutaineer]

No poop as yet. But he's not running a temp, his gums are a good color and he's bright and cheerful and hungry and pretty relaxed, except for wondering what the heck i was doing hanging around at that time of night. So I've left him in peace to contemplate... Barn manager who lives on the property will check on him in an hour or so.

The weather has been all over the place, and he got sedated for his shots yesterday, which I guess would have slowed his system down, which won't have helped.

Fingers crossed for Joplin, Khall.

[mari]

Jingles for Maia! Dang horses can drive us to drink!

Joplin thankfully is completely back to normal. My pinched nerve though is still causing me issues (*+!!)

Has anyone dealt with a pinched nerve? If so what helped? Meds are not. I’m going to chiropractor and will get a massage too and my holistic DVM gave me acupuncturist to try. Trying to get into PT have to before I can get an mri. Of course no appointments soon. Argh. I’m taking a wide variety of drugs just to function.

Where is your pinched nerve? I would never ever again go to a chiropractor for any spinal issues without an MRI. I have an excellent physio, and that is always my first person to call.

[Moutaineer]

Midnight poop and looking pretty normal today but will keep a close eye on him.

Horses...

[mari]

Exvet – Your exercise from the other day sounded very interesting. So on Monday I tried it by myself, and I thought it went okay. The upwards and downwards were obedient, the 10m circles were good. The turns on the haunches felt good.

So today I tried it with my instructor to coach me through it. She wasn’t so impressed with my initial execution, but she LOVES the exercise. She felt I didn’t have enough collection, Odin was flinging himself all over the place and his attention was at the other end of the property where 8 excitable horses were being loaded for a show, and my TOH she called “spins”… After practicing separate bits, we tried the circle, down to walk, TOH, canter depart on the short diagonal. That came together and then I attempted the actual changes as part of the pattern.

This is the first attempt. The first change was not even a little bit related to any aid I gave. I straightened him a bit, he bounced me up out of the saddle and snuck a change. The second one was his more difficult side to change to, and actually looks okay on the video but he felt like a TANK to ride by that point.
https://youtu.be/AgV_bFpRHYU

Here is a not great try. He is totally not allowed to kick out anymore, I do a hard stop for those. And you can see a pissy little kick-out at my leg for the following canter transition. Not our most harmonious attempt, but it is what it is.
https://youtu.be/RgEwdhdLFCM

Definitely one we will keep refining! Today we probably concentrated on it a bit too much, but I really like it because especially the 10m circles allow me to kick him up a bit while letting go of his face.

[Flight]

Tanga, I did watch your tests too and while I'm not good at judging I would have thought 62-65%. Low 50s is harsh and strange.
My only suggestion is sending your vids to a judge that you might know that could give you more thorough feedback in their scoring. The feedback might not be how you like to ride or how you think you look, but if you want to show you have to 'play the game' so to speak.

Hoping all the sick horses are doing ok! It's awful when they are unwell or injured.

Ponichiwa - lol Olga half halt! It's so hard to do everything right in a comp hey. I tend to over ride and then if I relax too much it's too slow. Hard to get happy medium.

Mari - those changes are going great! His canter is looking good too.

I had a working eq comp with Norsey on the weekend. He was soooooo good. He really is a nice, obedient horse. He's quite smart so he's worked out what a weq course is about (although he'll probably spook at something next time, now I've said this!!). He has been to these grounds a few times over the years too, so he's comfy.
I just have to stop pulling at him. You can see it especially in the double slalom, he's a big horse and I think he's not going to make the turns with the changes, so I've made him head tilt etc. But he still does it.
The speed round is something that needs work. It starts about 6.40 (the vid is a bit boring) and he keeps changing his legs all over the place. He was disunited through the garrocha line which was really off putting and then on the wrong leg for the turn. I think he's just surprised at being asked to go fast!

https://youtu.be/2PBfJO1E2AQ

[khall]

Mari wow you’ve got the canter going so well! Nice changes too!

Flight the EOH round was gorgeous to watch! Yeah those speed rounds can get messy. Difficult to keep correct with speed. Norsey has changed so much with your good training.

I’m still in disable list. Ugh not used to not being 100%. Heck even 9 months pregnant I still did chores just did not ride. Sigh. Mari the joys of US health care where insurance companies dictate treatment. I have to jump through the hoops in order to get an mri. PT first but of course could not get an appointment until the 18 th. My recheck is the 24 th. Why I tried chiropractor see if I could get some relief. Also have an acupuncture appointment later in the month. Still on meds just trying to get some relief.

Joplin seems better this afternoon after her fever was back up this morning. On two antibiotics and dueling diagnosis from two different vets. Viral va colitis. I’m leaning viral but my regular vet is the one running the bloodwork and thinks colitis.

Yeah Potters and poop! We will have a major weather change this weekend so will have to watch my guys for colic as well. Bring out the sweet water tomorrow to get them hydrated.

Are we having fun yet?

[Kyras_Mom]

Jingles for Joplin and Maia.

Our weather has finally gotten a bit more spring like in the last couple of days…normally spring like for early March . Oh well. I keep telling myself I am training for Iceland.

I finally got to ride two days in a row. That hasn’t happened in a couple of weeks. We are just working on basics as usual. She gets pretty puffy with much trot and canter so we are going slow. She is pretty nicely forward. Today she was a bit fussy with her mouth but she got better and I finished up with a nice marching stretched walk. I have been getting to the barn quite late which doesn’t leave me much riding time. I have to get my butt out of the house earlier. Then there is cleaning up the dear girl. I finally pulled her sheet and she has thoroughly enjoyed wallowing in her muddy pen.

I think I am going to set up a second opinion for Kyra’s dental issue. I just want to make sure before we go to drilling holes in her face. I suspect taking it out is the right course but I want to be sure.

Susan

[mari]

I had a working eq comp with Norsey on the weekend. He was soooooo good. He really is a nice, obedient horse. He's quite smart so he's worked out what a weq course is about (although he'll probably spook at something next time, now I've said this!!). He has been to these grounds a few times over the years too, so he's comfy.
I just have to stop pulling at him. You can see it especially in the double slalom, he's a big horse and I think he's not going to make the turns with the changes, so I've made him head tilt etc. But he still does it.
The speed round is something that needs work. It starts about 6.40 (the vid is a bit boring) and he keeps changing his legs all over the place. He was disunited through the garrocha line which was really off putting and then on the wrong leg for the turn. I think he's just surprised at being asked to go fast!

https://youtu.be/2PBfJO1E2AQ

This is bonkers cool You guys rock.

[khall]

Well good news! Baby on board!

[zevida]

I had a working eq comp with Norsey on the weekend. He was soooooo good. He really is a nice, obedient horse. He's quite smart so he's worked out what a weq course is about (although he'll probably spook at something next time, now I've said this!!). He has been to these grounds a few times over the years too, so he's comfy.
I just have to stop pulling at him. You can see it especially in the double slalom, he's a big horse and I think he's not going to make the turns with the changes, so I've made him head tilt etc. But he still does it.
The speed round is something that needs work. It starts about 6.40 (the vid is a bit boring) and he keeps changing his legs all over the place. He was disunited through the garrocha line which was really off putting and then on the wrong leg for the turn. I think he's just surprised at being asked to go fast!

https://youtu.be/2PBfJO1E2AQ

Wow amazing!!! I watched every second and it was so great. Your horse is sooo lovely and so obedient. I keep seeing these working eq videos on Instagram and I’m so interested. I just saw there is a clinic near me in June and now I’m even more keen to give it a go! Any tips or advice? How often do you get to practice the obstacles?

[StraightForward]

Flight, Norsey has come such a long way, and that is amazing for such a big horse to navigate! I wonder if T might enjoy WE - it is starting to become a thing around here and she does seem to like it when she senses there might be a game afoot.

A had a good jump school with her rider today. Her prescription is going to be bounces and oxers it sounds like. I didn't measure today's oxer, but it probably ended at 2'6". I put everything back to x-rails and had a fun little jump school with T. She was quite good working while all the other horses, including her mare crew, were being put out to pasture. A few times she jumped enough to give a pretty nice bascule feeling, and she was starting to get the hang of a bounce, which was something that was totally eluding her last summer. I need to arrange for a jump lesson on her again and start thinking more about verticals.

[exvet]

Mari - Odin's canter is looking so awesome and I am jealous of your changes............even with the kick at least he has air time LOL.

Congrats khall. I'm so jealous of you too. I wish I could make another Junior but alas that will never be.

Flight, you two look like you're totally enjoying yourselves. I think Junior would love WE. I hopefully will be moving to a location where I will have more access to WE so we can give it a try. Our house is coming along but it's a bit on the fence as to whether or not we'll be in by summer.

Weather is gorgeous today and was nice though breezy yesterday. I am so glad I have pivo. It is really helping me work through the mechanics of Junior's canter and what he needs to be successful in the changes. We haven't had a skip a change yet, a few late but a few clean and in the air too. He has been a little 'open' about his feelings of the increased demands but sooner or later he'll sign up without any sass.

Since everyone [from here] except me is at Omaha, I hauled Brandon over to where I take lessons and schooled the first level tests in the dressage arena. Brandon did pretty well and didn't offer any shenanigans at a place he's never been to before (and all by his lonesome) which I was pleased to see. I have to say, especially after riding him this morning, he definitely has a very strong bully streak. Fortunately this personality isn't new to me. It didn't get real ugly but you simply cannot give this type a personality even an inch and every rude response must be reprimanded (always being fair) because he definitely interprets an inch as the right to a mile. My greatest challenge for next weekend will be keeping the tension at bay on both of my boys. If I can manage that I might have decent tests.

[Flight]

Wow amazing!!! I watched every second and it was so great. Your horse is sooo lovely and so obedient. I keep seeing these working eq videos on Instagram and I’m so interested. I just saw there is a clinic near me in June and now I’m even more keen to give it a go! Any tips or advice? How often do you get to practice the obstacles?

Definitely go and see if you like it! A lot of people who come to our club for the first time, expect it to be like games or sporting. It's very much dressage!
I've slowly made some obstacles at home to practice on. You can make them as basic or fancy as you like. It's like anything, you just have to practice

[blob]

Congrats on the positive pregnancy, Khall!

Mari, you and Odin look great. He's going to be a change machine!

Flight, I love watching your boys and I love watching WE, so really a treat all around.

I had been thinking for some weeks that RP might need a lameness exam--nothing overt, but consistent struggles on right lead that weren't going away. I was fairly relaxed about it, thinking we would do some flexions and x-rays and then make a treatment plan and be done and done. So, in the mean time I was only hacking and doing some lunging to keep him going. Well, I was out of town for most of the week and came back today and decided to put him on the lunge. Trot looked fine, not his most expressive trot but consistently even and sound and comfortable looking. Went to canter him and was in for a big shock. Even on the left lead head bobbing lame, clearly in a lot of discomfort and pain. On the right the pain was bad enough that he stood straight up 3 strides in. Needless to say I did not push him continue. I'm feeling a bit confused--has something deteriorated so fast? Has this time off between my travel and mostly jsut walking him the day before make whatever was going on worse? Has something totally new/different happen? It has just suddenly gone to a subtle thing to a full on pretty extreme lameness (in the canter).

Now I have to wait until the 18th for a vet to come out. Debating what I can/should do to keep him comfortable and supported in the mean time.

[blob]

Khall, how is Joplin doing? A local horse friend's young horse just came down with high fever. The vet got her going on a course of antibiotics and fever reducer, but the vet said that there seems to be a bacterial infection going around in GA. May not at all be the same thing, but wondering if maybe it's the same thing? Friend is at a very small quiet barn and no one has come or gone from the barn recently, so it seems to be environmental.

[StraightForward]

Blob, I hope you can get to the bottom of whatever is bothering RP. FWIW, when I came back from my last work trip and Annabelle presented lame in front of some prospective buyers, she was really tender in her ribs and fussy about getting saddled (unusual). She did need hock injections, but I suspect she got kicked or something while I was gone, so there were two totally different things going on which seemed pretty concerning when all taken together.

Just for fun, here is a screen grab of Annabelle jumping yesterday:

[khall]

Blob Geeze hate that about RP. I swear what is going on with the board horses

Joplin is doing well now. Still on antibiotics. I had not heard about a bacterial thing going around. My vet has seen a couple of horses with coronavirus. High fever and off feed. Same here no horses on or off the farm in two weeks. Gaila had just stayed at the vets to be bred but that was two weeks ago.

[Moutaineer]

Looking good SF!

I'm glad Joplin is feeling better Khall! Potters was back to his normal self yesterday.

Fingers crossed you can get to the bottom of RPs issues, Blob.

Potters lets me know when he needs some maintenance by indulging in progressively bad behavior. He is not the stoic, soldier on type. Which in some ways is good, but...

This time round I noticed he was blowing up or threatening to when asked to collect after a L to R lead change, and was increasingly unhappy about right shoulder in--he'd do one or two long sides, but then all-out rebellion. Sure enough, that right hock joint really needed some attention. So while we were at it we did the left one, and as his regular coffin injections were due in 3 weeks we did them at the same time. Ka-ching... oh and he needs a float when the vet comes back to do spring shots...

It would be nice if this little lot were the magic bullet for a while!

[Tanga]

Man, I don't know what is going on. I keep posting whole things, and then it disappears. Not just here, everywhere. I am back from Omaha, so maybe it will stick this time.

I hope all of the horses are feeling better?

As for the BS judging (I ran into this judge walking the other way there, and every other judge in the country in Omaha!) reason 239 why I think this is the death nell. I am a judge and am harshest on myself when I see myself, but OMG. And after coming back from the World Cup, I just want to be judged on that standard! I think one horse did five actual steps back in the back up, and one (not the same) did it a back up actually on the bit and parallel steps. I know that PSG ride was very conservative, but it was over 60%. I have been working very hard on the "easy" points, like halt, back up, simple changes, being very straight on CL, and being more conservative on the other stuff so it stays steady. I'm also trying not to over ride and just really loosen my back and hips so I don't interfere with them. Whatever. I'm just going to try and get everything qualified for champs. one more time and hopefully not waste a lot of money. Then, on to my big plan for the next step.

I've been brainstorming the idea with everyone, including you guys, so we'll see. I'm thinking of calling the whole system Sustainable Dressage, where it will be a like mini clinic system where you can get the whole education on how and why I do everything (pasture, barefoot, do everything with the horses, super conditioning, have fun, they live sound and happy and do the work when they are old . . .) I think the way dressage is now is just knocking all of the will out of me after 40 years.

The World Cup was a lot of disheartening and disappointing, esp. in the GP, and pretty much everyone I talked to who has been doing this and brought horses to GP, including the women I've been competing GP against and known for years who is working through her judge's cards, agree. Like I said, in the GP, just things like maybe one horse did five steps back. It didn't seem an electric environment (there was hardly anyone there and half empty on the freestyle and jumping finals night, and probably more) but there were mostly very conservative rides. I think only one person went forward in the tempi changes, the rest clearly collecting and backing off into them, so struggling and head bobbing by the end, even if they got the count. A lot of no bend in the half passes and some in the pirouettes. (IW was actually counterbent in the pirouettes!) Very few had actual sitting behind in the p/p, and, no, Quantaz did not make up for it with steadiness, because he was popping up and down behind while his front legs barely left the ground, in the GP and freestyle. Oh yeah, and there was the clicking--we were in behind Janet Foy more towards I and clearly heard her click at least three times in the GP and saw at least twice the gaping mouth, and everyone else heard and saw that. Serenade was just a mess, and I guess this is what she normally looks like--it was all front end snapping knees and just a bizarre/weird/wonky/disconnected/out behind back end. My friend was SO pissed they had her at the top of the leaderboard after her ride. Carolyn Chow did a far more correct job. Steffen and Anna were also conservative, but looked far more correct in their rides, meaning they actually mostly had the horses engaged/coming through from behind over the back/not dropped in front with a dip in front of the withers. I thought Steffan should have won the freestyle--the might be the best he's ever done on Suppenkaspar. His half passes in trot and canter were stunning, as always, and he reworked the p/p so it looked better. Anna did a great job and looked very correct. Dalera just didn't seem to have it to me, and while I really like Zepter, same with him. And Quantaz--ugh.

[Chisamba]

I have seen Serenade in person a few times and I think she is a very elegant mare who I enjoy watching . I think Daleera is beautifully light in the contact and I wish my spooky distracted mare would go so nicely once under saddle. Daleera has piaffe and passage I would aspire to and generally I like her.

As for riding GP or not riding GP me and mine are not perfect at a much lower level. Maybe thats why I do not expect to see perfection at the higher levels.

About 15 years ago a friend who has ridden many many grand prix horses had a steady horse that was super obedient and correct. The problem was that even if he gave an almost perfect test he wasn't going to be better than 65.

So she got a new horse. He was no where near as obedient, and to be honest the now obedient she made him the more he lost his spark. So so would get 75 on a bad day because everything he did was easier for him. U fortunately by the time she had him all accurate she had dropped him into the just under 70 .

I watched this over a few years a d from her superior position. She did my I was full of it. But then she went back and looked at her videos her scores and her rides and said oh yes but when he is stronger he will get his spark back. He didn't.

Edited to add. Iat the end of last show season had a3 day show. The ride I was happiest with scored lowest. Maybe what makes me happy is not what does the best horse.

[exvet]

Tanga, this is actually my second attempt at a response to your thread. As one who struggles like all the others who are amateurs (I just have had the advantage of numbers in terms of horses and attempts over the years until the last 7 or 8 years) this is, well, more than disheartening. I get it. I have been online friends (and have had her come and give clinics) with Paula Kierkegaard for many years. Whether or not you agree with her method of teaching, her assessment and/or opinions of competitive dressage, her mantra has echoed your comments for many, many years.

I have attempted to keep with the code so-to-speak for the betterment and safety of my horses but it has been difficult. As an amateur you do your best to follow what you believe is correct; however, it isn't easy and it's not always about what wins. I will raise my hand high and admit I've drunk some of the Kool Aid in the past because it sounded 'logical' or rational coming from the mouth of someone successful. I will add that it's hard to argue some of 'their' theory of why their way is 'still' correct when they CAN demonstrate sound horses in their late teens/early 20s who have been competing at the FEI levels. Still, their is a gnawing at the gut that their method goes against the grain of what's written.

Occasionally when I feel my head has been thoroughly twisted off or stuck up you know where because of listening to pros and/or trying to get help for a problem, I've shot an email off to her (Paula) or a post to get her feedback. I do admire her perseverance to teach what she feels strongly is the correct way and true to the standards of classical dressage. The problem, of course, which isn't news to anyone, is having a mentor in person, to teach in the moment, and be that grounding force of moral support to stick to the slower path, the correct path..............because it's hard to know that you really are on the RIGHT path with said mount. In the end the training methods, a means to an end, is a choice of the rider and the measuring stick for most of us mere mortals has been the competition ring. Your conclusions do not bode well for most of us.

I've heard similar remarks from friends of went to Omaha this time. I'm glad I had to stay home and ended up saving the money. I really haven't had a desire to go watch many of those at the top due to what I've seen online though I will admit to still loving to watch that level/caliber of horseflesh in person when possible. BTW, I also saw the 5 steps back in the rein back and that same pair made the same error in Europe at one of their last competitions, receiving a 6 ??? Geesh!

So other than quitting is there an answer for those of us who still wish to ride and compete? Obviously western dressage has taken off like gangbusters in many areas due to the discouragement that modern dressage has fostered in us mere mortals, especially those of us with ordinary horses (I don't consider yours quite as ordinary as my choice of mount but it isn't for me just yet. Without monetary support will there ever be a true rekindling or returning to the original standards as they were written in terms of training and execution? At one time I thought the proof in necropsies and the ending of too many careers too early would help fan the flames of those supporting the like; but, it's been 30 years of this decline and I don't see it changing. Too many who trained with or had direct contact of correct execution of the movements have aged out, been silenced or quite honestly died. Certainly we can all make a decision to stay home with our dollars and our principles and insist that doing so makes a statement; but, I feel that's almost worse than letting the statement fall on 'deaf ears'. Please don't take that as a judgment on anyone making such a decision, more a sigh and shaking of the head in agreement and twinge of despair.

[Chisamba]

I have changed my mind about several things over a few decades and i am ok with that. If you can't change your mind why bother to have one.

Doggedly sticking to a principle is one thing I choose not to do. I try to listen to the horse. In simple terms I prefer bare foot horses. I also know that some are just not comfortable that way. But i am not being specific to that. Training techniques etc too.

Show dressage is a lot about the show. Training dressage is a lot about your ethics. The two will not always coexist comfortably. I do not think they ever have or ever will.l

Robert dover happened to stand next to me at a show once for long enough that we had a conversation. The judge was walking to her break and saw us talking. Those were my best scores all year. I call in the halo effect. Lol.

Truth is if you are very outspoken about how bad judges are they are going to know and have no reason to look at your ride with anything but harsh criticism
With that judgements that ye judge shall ye be judged.

As always just an opinion

[exvet]

I have changed my mind about several things over a few decades and i am ok with that. If you can't change your mind why bother to have one.

Doggedly sticking to a principle is one thing I choose not to do. I try to listen to the horse. In simple terms I prefer bare foot horses. I also know that some are just not comfortable that way. But i am not being specific to that. Training techniques etc too.

Show dressage is a lot about the show. Training dressage is a lot about your ethics. The two will not always coexist comfortably. I do not think they ever have or ever will.l

Robert dover happened to stand next to me at a show once for long enough that we had a conversation. The judge was walking to her break and saw us talking. Those were my best scores all year. I call in the halo effect. Lol.

Truth is if you are very outspoken about how bad judges are they are going to know and have no reason to look at your ride with anything but harsh criticism
With that judgements that ye judge shall ye be judged.

As always just an opinion

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I think my greater conundrum is knowing the line between gleaning helpful training tips/recommendations towards a goal (be able to perform a 6 or 7 pirouette on a 6 mover and not detrimental to the horse) versus shortcuts that get you 'there'. Unfortunately so much of the system is geared towards a façade being acceptable that until you see the damage you just don't know until it's too late if you've never been there before.....you know what I mean? We all know that I'm a vet and I have a good handle on biomechanics. I also believe I have a good eye for a horse whose muscling is developing properly vs. not but I still have to experiment and do so using as best of judgment as I can but have a very wary concern that I'll catch a mistake too late. Because I do compete and I do try some of what others' have to suggest I don't think I doggedly stick to a principle that cannot be demonstrated in the here and now; but, I also do see the detriment of what some methods have created. Showing is a craft and the politics is a definite part of it, no question; and you are right the ethics of training and the machine or game that showing has become often don't co-exist comfortably. I guess I'm just finding it even harder to keep my head and ass in the game without selling my soul. Though I'm told by many that no one would EVER mistake me for a kiss-ass LOL so perhaps I just need to ride and let the chips fall where they may.

[Tanga]

exvet--VERY well written. Explains so well what i was thinking and "trying" to write briefly.

I don't know the answer. I won't do western dressage, but I would LOVE to do serious working equitation! We do all of that already! We could be queens of the world!!

In talking to my friend (who took her horse to GP and is going up through the judges, being an r right now) and saying there is no answer, she is vehement there is and many, many people feel this way, and that we need to hold the judges accountable. I don't know how we do that when they are under so much pressure. Janet Foy will be doing a symposium here at the beginning of May, so maybe we can work up a politic way to bring up his discussion. I know if we did a petition about this, we could get insane numbers of signatures, but would it be tamped down by the dressage media that everyone reads, and would anyone care?

And speaking of your biomechanics expertise, yet another this we notice particularly in the GP was a drop in front of the wither and the muscle bulging under the neck, not on top. This includes Dalera. I remember remarking that Zepter, Suppenkaspar, and Davinia were actually some of the ones showing correct development.

And Chisamba--you are 100% right. Putting your name to criticism will get you blackballed. I did that a long time ago with Bimbo, the loudest Appy ever who had many faults, but could also outperform a lot of other horses. When the BS judging clearly showed at the champs one year, I wrote a letter (pre-internet) and sent it off to everyone, including CDS newsletter and COTH. Denny Callin told me not to do it because it would cost me. It probably did. I had to send it several times to get them to publish it, and there was stoney silence from everywhere afterwards, but I put it out there. I mean, now, what are they going to do to me, give me a 53% for mostly solid ride??

I don't know. Maybe if all of us (the regular dressage riders) get together and brainstorm, we can make some headway. I feel sorry for younger people coming into this sport.

[StraightForward]

Well I am not far enough up the ladder to worry about these things just yet. I did get advised against showing A under the judge they have scheduled for the May show if I wanted to get scores to help market her (and that probably means I'd have a good chance of not getting my other 1st and 2nd level scores either so...)

Had a pretty good lesson on T yesterday, and then rode A like hot garbage. This morning was just T, and she was really great. She warmed up better than she has in probably two months, and then we got some canter work that was declared 2nd level-worthy. Really wish I'd gotten video, but I'm afraid my SoloShot is in its death throes. If we can replicate those results for a few weeks, I think we'll really be stepping up a notch. And I'm back on track with my DRT exercises, so that is bound to help as well. It's in the high 70's and windy here, and will be back to a high in the 40's within the next few days.

[Chisamba]

Fortunately for you I just fell victim to the l
Post devouring monster. Lol.

In brief I said I think dressage training is by and large much kinder now that it was 50 years ago. . Despite the dark rollkur years. Everyone now has phones, videos and everyone wants to catch someone riding badly.

Some of the very admired photos from a few decades ago. Those riders were known to be murderous.

My other comment is that training can only improve confirmation a limited amount. I have a couple of horses that will ALWAYS have a dip in front of the withers.

[blob]

Interesting conversation with some great points for everyone.

I agree showing can be very frustrating. For me, one of the main reasons I do show is that it helps give me structure and goals. It's easy for me to stay comfortably in one place and not really push myself to improve or my horses' training to advance without some external bar/mark I'm trying to make.

One thing that I have found very interesting in my own showing experience. Is that I have two ordinary but correct horses when it comes to gaits. Both have a better than average walk. Neither are purpose bred for dressage. Both struggle with suspension and extended gaits. And I've found it really interesting that at training and first RP has easily gotten scores that I would have needed a PERFECT ride to get with MM at those levels. I don't think RP is a better mover or a more talented horse than MM. They are very different. There is a variable that I am definitely a more experienced show rider with RP than I was with MM at those levels and I am also hopefully a better rider (though I don't think dramatically). What I do think plays a big role, however, is the 'overall impression'. RP moves better than one might expect a pony to move. He is an unusual color and 'cute'. He is a very good size for me so we make a well matched picture. As a result of all these things I think I enter the ring with judges already having a favorable impression, which means I can have small bobbles or errors and still get a pretty decent score because we're starting from a high place. MM always goes into a show ring ears forward, pleasant expression. But I don't enter the ring with the same type of overall impression. Which means that small bobbles can really hurt me. On the flip side, clinicians always love MM--she is a fast learner, she is a strong, she is always ready to learn, she applies asks or corrections appropriately, a bad moment is always just a moment, there is always progress in the ride. Trainers are less sold on RP sometimes--he can get stressed with new things throw at him and then can kind of fall apart, when he gets tense his gaits become unpure and sometimes you cannot really get him past that without taking a break, he doesn't always have the desire/expected reaction to corrections or asks, you can't always push him through something, etc.

[exvet]

My experience has been somewhat similar to yours over the years. All of my horses have been correct movers. My purebred Arab whom I earned my bronze with was often mistaken for an Arab x warmblood because his canter was far better than the average Arabian. Riding him was very telling if I entered the ring with a judge who didn't give Arabs their due or not, because most judges liked him and my collective scores often reflected that. It was I that held him back until arthritis caught up with him. He was intended to be a reiner on the show circuit (thus some wear and tear). I had him early on in my dressage career and we did manage to eek out the scores for a bronze all the same. Brandon isn't too different than BK, other than breed (same size, dame color, similar markings and a really nice canter). My daughter is constantly stating that fact (BK was very beloved by the whole family). I've told the story before where I went to a recognized dressage show at one of the large venues (5 ring show), entered the ring and several people who were going to leave (getting up, packing up their things) sat back down to watch us go. Two of them, after my ride came up to me to specifically let me know that they enjoyed my ride/test and were about to leave when they read that he was an Arab until they saw us come down the centerline and salute. We did win that class with a 69++++ against several purpose-bred types.

Of my purebred Welsh Cobs, Resolute earned the higher/overall gait score generally so I usually could skate by on overall impression with him. All of the others have earned higher scores in general as I moved them up the levels with a few random exceptions (once Morgan, the stinker pony, earned a 70 at training level). Monty's highest scores came at fourth level. My Welsh Cob x Tbs always had great canters, elegant presence and just on looks (not really but I think you get what I mean) would hit training level in the higher earnings/scores/places. Of course they sold before I had a chance to develop them further. Junior, though built much better, is a lot more like Monty. His scores and the comments I get are far more similar as has been the ceiling effect. One thing is for sure with all of the aforementioned horses, my medium gaits have always been there with the exception of the stinker pony. He is the only one, due to his conformation, that I struggled with establishing a difference that the judges could easily see. He is an unusual color with very correct gaits and cute. That may have helped us get 60s at PSG but I doubt it.

Instructors/trainers/coaches of course have always favored the ones like BK, Brandon, the welsh cob x TBs (especially Autumn), and of my welsh Cobs, Resolute, for the obvious reasons. I think they've gotten a kick out of the others and respected/respect my determination but so many get frustrated with them/me as well. The challenges with the underneck, the tension, the power lacking suppleness attributed to most of my purebreds (Welsh Cobs) makes them work [harder] to help me.

While I too show for a purpose, set goals, have benchmarks and to improve as a rider using a standard of measures, I have and always will prioritize my choice in mounts to being ones I love to ride. This has been a blessing (my perspective) and a curse, if you talk to those who just can't wrap their heads around the fact that I refuse to go out and buy (or breed for) the size, type, movement that the collective powers want as the face of competitive dressage. In the end, I realize that I still am the one who is holding my horses back, not the other way around and some of what I've discovered in the past several months continues to prove that. One thing is for sure, if I do get above 60s on MY HORSES it's because I rode and trained closer to the FEI standards as originally written and not by using shortcuts or the training methods du jour. I guess I just prefer to ride and show horses that can and will pull your pants down if you waiver in your skill sets.........so-be-it

[Chisamba]

Exvet, my horses are all rehabs. Perhaps that is why I don't expect to be comparable to the fancy horses.

I also get quite offended if some one tells me I shouldn't waste my time on a horse because it's ordinary.
In this I agree with you.

But in this I choose to disagree with perhaps both you and Tanga.

But I also get cranky when a group of the best in the world gather and instead of appreciation for what is remarkable all I hear is that dressage is going to hell.

I suppose there will always be riders and trainers who look for made horses. Short cuts . I don't know. On the negative I do see riders with every muscle straining. I also do see riders do very well with a collected trot be a kind of semi passage. I see saddle seat like shoeing jobs . But mostly, I see riders and horses trying hard admirably. Then I hear people who watched the same horses say cruel, abusive. Inaccurate, incorrect and it all sounds like blah blah blah blah blah.

Dalera, 2 time gold medalist and world champion trained by the riders ( Benny and Jessica)with the chief rider of the Spanish Riding school ( AndreasHausberger) , commonly known to have a very holistic approach to their horses is apparently an ill trained POS with nothing going for her. ( and everyone supposedly agrees) Ok then. I do not.

[Chisamba]

Oh. Would dearly love to know if there is a short cut to 15 one tempi . Lol. K I know that is not really funny

[Chisamba]

Some one on a Facebook thread said a certain person was cruel rider. When asked how she knew the response was " you cannot get to the top with out being cruel"

I suppose there might be a number of people who believe that.

[khall]

Chisamba I certainly see your pov! For example I went to the 2010 WEG and watched Totalis go. I was surprised at how much I liked how he went irl. Were there issues of course. His one tempis were not great but man his piaffe passage and pirouettes sure were! We got to watch the FS prep the night before where the teams went through their test with music. There were a couple of Dutch riders that were too much btv for me but the absolute more egregious rider that I saw was IW. She was riding that huge horse and I seriously wanted to yank her off him.

I also do think that the breeding of top horses has gone down a rabbit hole not in the best interest of their longevity and soundness. That flash that wins can also be at a price for some where they are breeding for extreme movement that is not healthy for the horses.

I do appreciate Ceder and her ability to train in one of the classical methods but still show and do well with the Iberians which are not always well received especially the more typical Iberian movement. She just recently got her Gold Medal with distinction of intermediate and GP of scores 67% or higher.

[exvet]

I don't disparage the horseflesh at the International FEI level. I do see a LOT of very nice, very talented horses. I also do not decry cruelty for training methods that are a work in progress or moments of BTV or aspects that address a specific issue in order to get to the next step in a reasonable pyramid training program. Perfection sustained is not just a pipedream but a delusion imo and some of the die hards in the classical dressage circles are fanatics and quite frankly delusional. So, I don't think we disagree all that much. I perhaps do feel that some at the top have demonstrated their repeated 'pissing through' of very nice horseflesh to get THE ONE for each cycle all thanks to their goals and their training program. Unfortunately I do also think the 'system' rewards such; but, if that's where we choose to disagree I respectfully say we each have a right to our own opinion and that's okay. I realize your horses are mostly rehabs and appreciate those who take the time to give many very nice horses in their own right a chance for being someone's special horse.

[Tanga]

Very interesting discussion. I've said this forever--dressage is a lot better than it was 40 years ago, and the riders are WAY better. And I've always called BS on abuse or cruelty--you can't really get horses at the top and sound that way. And that includes Anky and deep and round. And I don't call it rolkur, because she spent a long time giving a symposium in CA showing how she used her method to bring every single horse to a better level, and she always rode her horses correctly up in the ring, and they lived to be very old. (And I'm sure people here will call it rolkur and say it is abuse.)

But that doesn't mean I don't get to call out the BS. And a big part of it is the breeding, which is all about MONEY. And with all of the media access, it all comes into a frenzy of pushing horses harder and younger for MONEY. And no, there is no short cut to 15 one tempis, but ALL horses can do them. (Someone a few years ago said they had a video of a pas de deux I did with my Appy that I put together and rode with Denny Callin on a GP horse, that we put tape spots on. Anyway, on that, you can clearly see us doing one tempis side by side, and at the end after we won, we did one tempis together all down the long side outside, well over 15. It's amazing where you can get with a horse by just having no other choice.)

So that's the thing. All horses can do most of these movements. I think passage is the real deal breaker where some horses won't do more than a sort of jog. And dressage is supposed to be about training, so is the sport moving towards allowing for all horses to be able to do well? Last time I saw Kyra Kyrklund at the World Cup on Max, he was very correctly trained and not fancy. She did OK. But this is what the sport is supposed to be.

This WC had a lot of horses broken at the wrong vertebra, and I think it's a building of "fancy" bred horses being pushed too fast/young and the judging. And I think Werth is a big part of the problem. Not because she is a bad rider or abusive or hasn't had very nice horses. The problem is she wins or does VERY well no matter what she does. khall--I remember the big chestnut for the WC she rode that had fabulous extensions, very little collection, and the simplist of difficulty. But it didn't matter. I think she won. She and her sponsor have so much money and power, they have dominated the sport, and everyone is afraid to say the emperor has no clothes. But, that said, except for Serenade, who was all of the example of so much wrong, Steffen and Anna showed Suppenkaspar and Davinia as very well, correctly trained horses being ridden very, very well. The CA riders were something to be super proud of.

And exvet, interesting what you say about first impressions. I just did an "interview" (responded to email questions) for USDF about larger riders. I am definitely down in weight from where I got for awhile, but I will never be small, and my horses are not large. When I see myself in pictures, I see shoulders the size of some of the larger men we don't see too much of anymore. I don't look nearly as good on a horse as a smaller rider on a bigger horse. And because I am larger, everything I do affects the horses much more dramatically and I have to be much more careful. There's nothing really to be done about it, though, is there? It's just what it is.

[Chisamba]

Tanga, within my own horses I too look much better on the bigger horses. But I started with Arabians and I think I find the smaller ones easier to ride
But a super slender rider does look better. Having said that, a large rider who is male rarely is judged poorly and i really really believe females are.

I used to believe that any horse could do all the work required for Grand Prix but its one thing I have changed my mind about. Quite frankly even if an 80 year old grandma can do the splits on social media, I cannot and will never. Just like Sunstorm could never manage a piaffe without his hocks out behind. And Hero, after 10 years of decent basic training will always have a dip in front of her wither.

Now I have truly appreciated the thoughts and civility with which they are expressed. I have always believed that friends can disagree and still be friends.

Something else I changed mind about. I used to think I was pretty good at training flying changes. I probably just had horses with a talent for it because I'm truly stuck and am going to have to find real help.

Argh.

[Srhorselady]

This conversation has voiced something that I have long thought. I used to do a fair amount of scribing and I still do a LOT of watching at dressage shows. What I’ve noticed is that the first impression of a pair makes an impression on the judge that sets the tone for the scoring on the whole ride. When someone comes in looking good and nails the halt and start off they get the benefit of the doubt through most of the test. They get those little half points and are forgiven minor bloops. While if a horse comes in fussy and takes a half step back before starting forward it colors the judges perception of the rest of the ride and how it is scored. I’d like to think differently, but I suspect that the personal appearance of the rider may also affect this. Do you remember the old book about job interviewing Dress for Success? There is quite a bit of truth to it in job interviewing and I suspect also in horse show scoring. So the first impression is SUPER important, maybe more so than how perfect any individual movement may be.

[Tanga]

Chisamba I feel you! Thank you for saying some horses can't be changed to look a certain way! I look at my mother and two daughters and see, though I have done the same things with them, they don't all have the same development! I used to think I was great at putting on flying changes, too, because my Appy was so easy, as was everyone else. And then came Quilla. Sigh. She got the changes, but then showing and not changing behind in the ones and me not even being able to feel it! Here. I'll link this, but remember, this was before cell phones and easy videoing, ad I've never had regular help, so most of where I got was 100% on my own by feel, so just ignore the head and neck position (but, if it were steadier, would it be like Dalera?) You can watch the whole thing, but make sure to keep going after the awards and watch the one tempis after. If ONLY Quilla were this good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5yN-U0vLaQ

And, sort of in this vein, this guy popped up in a response on FB about a question I posed about are we going to discuss pushing horses too young, too fast in response to Freestyle "disappearing." This is a very interesting article he wrote, which, of course, got a stony silent response. https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/plus/op ... als-821481

[Flight]

This is a great discussion! One of the reasons I now compete mostly in working equitation and not dressage is because I got sick of looking at bad riding and unhappy horses. I know not everyone is a bad rider, and there are some beautiful riders out there but I also pencilled a lot and would see these straining horses, with bulging veins and stressed expressions. Riders leaning back and you can see most of the mouthpiece of the bit being pulled backwards against tight nosebands. Kicking with spurs every stride. But getting high marks.
I just was over it all.
I think that having to be perfect and not have any mistakes or bobbles in the contact lead to this holding on, which then leads to the noisy legs.
Incorrect movement being rewarded. Piaffes with the forefeet on the ground and bouncing hinds, tight roping passage, wtf trots. It's all showing horses not in the correct balance and they get high marks. I don't get it.

Srhorselady, thats interesting what you say. I wonder also for me why I've turned away from dressage, is because I"m bad at dressing up, my horses coats tend to be a bit rough as I dont rug them much. I"m a bit fat so I never feel comfortable in white jods and tails. So I most likely don't convey a positive first impression. You are really in the spotlight out in the arena by yourself!

Chisamba, my Norsey will probably always have a bit of a dip in front of his wither too. He has such a big wither. Nice improvement with Hero too though.
What's going wrong with your flying changes?

Tanga, that vid is cool. Love how the crowd was cheering.

[Chisamba]

Chisamba, my Norsey will probably always have a bit of a dip in front of his wither too. He has such a big wither. Nice improvement with Hero too though.
What's going wrong with your flying changes?

My flying changes. Kimba actually died a better flying change than Saiph. And physically she seems to find it easier, but one change and she gets so stressed about it her ridability tanks. Turn up the center line and she is trying to ruin sideways, head tossing , speeding up. It's anticipation but to a very intense and stressed degree.

Saiph anticipates a bit too but most is just about adding a volte or something to get her back on the same page. But she finds the physical aspect difficult. Even though she is a warmly she really is built like a hunter, downhill, and so short coupled that her back is very hard to get supple, so worth each consecutive change she bounces her butt up higher and gets more in the forehand and I guess I'm just not skilled enough to help her regain uphill as we go

[blob]

honestly, changes are so complex and unlike most things in dressage where you get several strides to refine (if your shoulder in starts out without enough bend, you fix it on the next stride, you end up overbent, you straighten on the next, etc), you get one moment for it to either be good or bad. Yes, I know you have all the set up, but you can't really fix the change part way through the change.

I now really understand why so many people I know won't buy anything without a confirmed change. It becomes such a gatekeeper to progressing up the levels.

[exvet]

Well we practiced our third level test 3 today and Junior had clean changes both directions, a little croup high in his difficult direction but I'll take it.