under-tempo

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no.stirrups
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under-tempo

Postby no.stirrups » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:57 pm

Many people advocate working under-tempo in certain circumstances. I've never quite understood why you would want to do this for more than a 2 or 3 strides before pushing on. I'm all for "ride your horse forward and straighten him!"

Can you please explain what circumstances would lead you to want to work under-tempo, for how long you would do so, and what benefits you would expect to see?

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Re: under-tempo

Postby piedmontfields » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:00 pm

I am taking your question at face value. When a horse is "running", they are not forward and they are not in front of the leg. A horse who tends to get quicker as an evasion and when out of balance can benefit from learning to work slightly under tempo. Sometimes this is necessary in one gait, but not all gaits.

I'm sure others can offer more perspective. I do think many people (not saying you) confuse running with forward. But that's a different question.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Ponichiwa » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:12 pm

For some horses, it's akin to body-building. Slow, constant repetitions of weights. This is only helpful if the horse's natural tendency is to get quick. If your horse's reaction to something new is to get slow, do not encourage it.

"Forward" has 2 parts: tempo and ground-cover (speed). Fast tempos kill impulsion: the legs move too fast to be able to access the whole topline, and the connection feels tough or braced. Slow tempos kill impulsion by requiring too much strength to maintain balance. But you can use slower tempos to build strength (in short bursts)-- so long as the ground cover isn't sacrificed as well.

As an aside, that "gallop 'em!" advice to fix behind-the-leg issues really works for slow-tempo'd horses. For quick ones, it just enforces the same problematic behavior.

I do bits of this with my pony, whose go-to tempo is sewing machine. I do not (can not) do big long stretches of it because it's asking A LOT of her from a strength perspective to remain supple and on the aids while taking scopier, more cadenced strides.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Code3 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:43 pm

My clinician refers to it as "under impulsionized". I have one horse that greatly benefits for the reasons above. The other would not benefit and is indeed sent forward, but he never gets quick.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby galopp » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:03 am

Under tempo should not mean lacking impulsion, but speed (pushing the load) is the enemy of impulsion. By riding under tempo a smidge the horse can relax and have a swinging back w/o tension and leaning against the hand (which happens when over tempo). Then the horse can be ridden with more ground cover and sustain purity of gaits. Also before transitions the idea of slow/down (hh/hh) can help to connect and balance the horse.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby ProudHorse » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:26 am

Riding slightly under tempo is very good for stiff horses - that would be the majority of horses. It helps with muscular tonus, breathing, coordination and processing information and learning.
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Re: under-tempo

Postby Chisamba » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:38 am

Under tempo with length of stride is often the best way to teach a natural quick leg mover to balance and engage through the body.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby lorilu » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:41 am

Code3 wrote:My clinician refers to it as "under impulsionized". I have one horse that greatly benefits for the reasons above. The other would not benefit and is indeed sent forward, but he never gets quick.


Under tempo is NOT "under impulsionized". Impulsion has to be maintained. WOrking under tempo allows some horses to create MORE impulsion. Tempo is speed of footfalls. Impulsion is independent of speed, although often blocked by it.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby kande50 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:04 am

Thoughts seem to be that riding slightly under tempo can be a good thing? Does that mean that riding considerably under tempo isn't, and is that because it's too difficult for a horse to sustain impulsion if the tempo becomes too slow?

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Ponichiwa » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:06 pm

kande50 wrote:Thoughts seem to be that riding slightly under tempo can be a good thing? Does that mean that riding considerably under tempo isn't, and is that because it's too difficult for a horse to sustain impulsion if the tempo becomes too slow?


You can drop tempo to almost 0 if you want, but if you don't keep the impulsion there's no benefit. And, as mentioned above, the slower the tempo the more work it is for the horse to keep the same level of impulsion.

We kind of touched on this in a passagey-trot conversation, I think. If the tempo is sufficiently reduced, it becomes impossible (or close enough as makes no difference) to maintain the activity and purity of the gaits... which is why the western pleasure horses are asked to maintain such a slow tempo. Really effective at reducing groundcover.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Code3 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:24 am

lorilu wrote:
Code3 wrote:My clinician refers to it as "under impulsionized". I have one horse that greatly benefits for the reasons above. The other would not benefit and is indeed sent forward, but he never gets quick.


Under tempo is NOT "under impulsionized". Impulsion has to be maintained. WOrking under tempo allows some horses to create MORE impulsion. Tempo is speed of footfalls. Impulsion is independent of speed, although often blocked by it.


In my experience, with an OTTB with sewing machine gaits until/unless relaxed, we did indeed work under impulsionized. Once he relaxed his back and got a slightly longer stride, we added impulsion a little at a time and ended up with a rather lovely horse who connected mentally and physically. His footfalls became much softer, he was much more "up" in front and pushing from behind in the end. Up until this clinician I had an almost unrideable horse.

I am clearly in the minority and I accept that. Perhaps I should not have posted to this thread because under tempo and under impulsion are indeed two very separate things. So I apologize for muddying the waters.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby redsoxluvr » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:22 am

This is normally called speed control, which helps build strength, adjustability and elasticity.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby galopp » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:50 am

But often in today's world the riders too many think that is about using fast and slow tempos and call it speed control. Whereas the what should be is the same tempo with longer and shorter strides (the later with amplitude). And virtually never allow over tempo, except perhaps in a horse which might be stuck and must be ask to 'go' in any manner, just to react. All horses when asked to be in motion should remain so w/o being asked again (unless they are acted upon in a negative manner).

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Sue B » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:31 pm

I had a TB like that Code3. :) Current TB, however, I use the under tempo method to bring his gaits up. With him, it is critical to maintain impulsion; it is the only way I can truly connect him without losing the base of the neck. Then when we go up to the "ideal" tempo, I can adjust length of stride much more easily, and I can feel the joy in his movement. Speed control, in my uneducated hands, does nothing for us, but I don't understand what the goal is there anyways. Perhaps I will think differently as my other horse, a warmblood, progresses in his training.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby no.stirrups » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:36 pm

So as is usually the case with this topic, most responses contrast under tempo with rushing as if those are the only 2 choices. ;)

No one has yet said for what duration they would work a horse under-tempo. As I said, I do so for only a few strides at a time. For example, on a horse that has a tendency to get flat in trot I would ask for the first 1-2 strides of trot to be under-tempo and relatively collected before pushing on to the correct tempo and stride length. This reminds the horse to keep its back swinging and I can let the stride out a little at a time over 2 or 3 more strides to maintain the swing and impulsion.

As Ponichiwa said, it is like body-building and can only be maintained for a short period before the horse just can't continue correctly any longer, and the impulsion has to be maintained. However that is not how it is usually recommended when the topic comes up. I see/hear recommendations to work under tempo for weeks. When I see it in action, I see either a poky jog or sucked back/BTV horse and if I comment I get told their trainer says they need to work under-tempo to get their horse's back swinging. And months later they are riding the exact same way, and the horse's back is more locked up than ever.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby piedmontfields » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:30 pm

Poor no.stirrups.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby kande50 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:40 pm

no.stirrups wrote:No one has yet said for what duration they would work a horse under-tempo.


Probably depends on how much under tempo.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby galopp » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:44 pm

The tempo controls the balance and the mind. If a horse tends to hurry or lose balance or be unsettled, rider under. If they lack reaction then moments over. (Swim the opposite way the horse tends to be.) It may be a few strides, it may be more. But never steadily over tempo as we often see just trying to keep the horse upright or submissve, that is the wrong use of over tempo. By riding slightly under tempo likely the back will swing more,the horse will also be easier to sit, but the horse should also then be more up/open/connected. For most riders it would be better to learn to sit at a slower tempo (ie watch the EvN tapes), and then push on.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Chisamba » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:21 pm

no.stirrups wrote:So as is usually the case with this topic, most responses contrast under tempo with rushing as if those are the only 2 choices. ;)

No one has yet said for what duration they would work a horse under-tempo. As I said, I do so for only a few strides at a time. For example, on a horse that has a tendency to get flat in trot I would ask for the first 1-2 strides of trot to be under-tempo and relatively collected before pushing on to the correct tempo and stride length. This reminds the horse to keep its back swinging and I can let the stride out a little at a time over 2 or 3 more strides to maintain the swing and impulsion.

As Ponichiwa said, it is like body-building and can only be maintained for a short period before the horse just can't continue correctly any longer, and the impulsion has to be maintained. However that is not how it is usually recommended when the topic comes up. I see/hear recommendations to work under tempo for weeks. When I see it in action, I see either a poky jog or sucked back/BTV horse and if I comment I get told their trainer says they need to work under-tempo to get their horse's back swinging. And months later they are riding the exact same way, and the horse's back is more locked up than ever.


You asked why and when we would work under tempo, we answered your question, then you admonished us; that certainly inspired me to want to discuss the topic with you further////// not.

correct tempo is a completely subjective term, one might have to actually experiment with tempo before one discovers what the correct tempo is for a horse, it may not be the same from the beginning of the ride to the end of the ride, it may not be the same from day to day, and it definitely differs from horse to horse. With that in mind, 2 to 3 strides of a particular tempo on a young horse will do more to confuse it and unbalance it than a consistent tempo for five to ten minutes, maintaining temp through changes of bend and direction while in the correct posture are key to developing consistent contact balance and connection to the outside rein.

My answer to your question then would be, maintaining a slightly slower then the horses natural tempo, which would, imho be the CORRECT tempo, is only useful when maintained for a whole block of work, including changes of bend as well as lengthening of frame, for about ten minutes, ( which is the maximum amount of work I do before relaxing and stretching, at any one time)

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Re: under-tempo

Postby no.stirrups » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:35 pm

Apparently my post had a much different tone than I intended. I just really want to get into the details of the theory and practice so I understand. Perhaps my frustration with my own lack of understanding came across as frustration with all of you. I do apologize.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby myleetlepony » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:23 am

I use a lot of under-tempo in the horses I work, however, I am working with rehabs from injury/lameness cases.

One horse is an ex-eventer who went through many trainers, getting spookier and more forward/rushed until the owner gave up after a particularly nasty spook that shattered her ankle and collar bone. From what I can gather not knowing much history, he was a classic case of rush forward and hold the front. He was VERY crooked, back tensed, BTV, and it took a weight-lifter to have any contact on the bit.

We are now on month five of work and I still use a lot of under tempo, especially at the walk and trot; in fact, I would say the bulk of our work is UT with LOTS of walk and loose rein breaks. I am adamant that his steps are balanced, true and he has impulsion, but he is asked to slow it down and really think about his body alignment, foot placement and overall balance in the hind end, especially while asking for change of bend or lateral work. He is starting to have enough balance and strength that I am allowing him to edge closer and closer to his natural tempo overall.

I do give some time during our sessions for posting trot work allowing him to explore his natural tempo and balance. I also get out and do hill work when the footing in the pastures is decent. Most of that work is not UT, however I do ask for it occasionally.

I guess I can't answer your question as to "how long", as that is dependent on the horse, where they are at in terms of balance, strength, and straightness. Those also determine "how long" during a session as well as the overall duration of their training. It takes a while to build up longevity of working UT at the walk, and then again at the trot, and then again at the canter.

When I see it in action, I see either a poky jog or sucked back/BTV horse and if I comment I get told their trainer says they need to work under-tempo to get their horse's back swinging. And months later they are riding the exact same way, and the horse's back is more locked up than ever.


In my experience, this would mean that the riders/trainers don't understand why they are doing it, nor the "how" of execution.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby lorilu » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:27 am

no.stirrups wrote:
As Ponichiwa said, it is like body-building and can only be maintained for a short period before the horse just can't continue correctly any longer, and the impulsion has to be maintained. However that is not how it is usually recommended when the topic comes up. I see/hear recommendations to work under tempo for weeks. When I see it in action, I see either a poky jog or sucked back/BTV horse and if I comment I get told their trainer says they need to work under-tempo to get their horse's back swinging. And months later they are riding the exact same way, and the horse's back is more locked up than ever.


IMO what you are seeing "in action" is incorrect. Just because a trainer tells someone to work under tempo, then presumable instructs them on it, does not mean the lesson is carried over into the student's work the next day or week.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby piedmontfields » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:57 pm

no.stirrups, I apologize for mis-reading your remarks. I have seen some of what you described, but not by any decent trainer/rider (IMO).

galopp wrote:The tempo controls the balance and the mind. If a horse tends to hurry or lose balance or be unsettled, ride under. If they lack reaction then moments over. (Swim the opposite way the horse tends to be.) It may be a few strides, it may be more.


I like the pairing of balance and mind. As one long time trainer tells me, "do the opposite!" of what the horse is prone to doing. I do think it is an iterative process of strides at a time, with a lot of checking in and monitoring by the rider/trainer.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Shadowfax » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:30 pm

On the other hand, having worked with multiple behind the leg and balky horses, I have no problem with over tempo in the early stages of retraining. You can't get straight and you can't get a connection by allowing a horse to nap behind the leg, you get balking and rearing instead and I never ask a horse to slow down unless I know that I have no problems getting it to speed up. I try to slow a rushed horse down by doing a little circle, going straight, little circle, etc so I get a slower tempo and not just stuffing the horse backward by pulling on the reins.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Kathy Johnson » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Very often in the real world, the horse's gaits can be de-scoped so the rider can sit them. This usually only works on a horse with big gaits, who tends to a lot of amplitude, or you will get a horse behind the leg, as Shadow mentions. The forward and back with such a rider might be only a few strides with little difference shown, so the horse can keep his back soft without a bouncing rider.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby galopp » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:46 am

It is one thing to allow the rider to learn to sit, it is another to use the tempo within training. The horse only gets behind the leg if the rider doesnt sustain reactions or balance/bearing. That is different than under tempo for purpose. If the horse is behind the leg or balking that is a totally different set of problems, usually trapped by the hand or out of balance. Certainly putting the horse to a curved line/circle will slow them down because they are meeting the (control of the) outside rein. The rider should never be pulling back on the reins in any case.

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Re: under-tempo

Postby Bats79 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:24 pm

I find horses with balance issues correct much sooner and easier when ridden in a slower tempo. Unless a horse is fearful and running away over tempo usually signifies a loss of balance and that balance can rarely be corrected properly if the tempo is too fast. For a horse coming behind the leg I certainly aren't afraid of sending it forward at whatever speed is necessary but it should only be for as long as it takes to correct that misunderstanding. Then it is back to correct tempo.

I wonder a little at the term "under tempo" though. I feel that so many people are riding over tempo *hurrying) their horses all the time that they feel like they are riding too slowly when they are actually in the best tempo for the horse. So I prefer to say "correct tempo for now" or hurried or "losing/not enough energy".

As galopp says - horse behind the leg / balking is different than one in a slower tempo.

If rhythm, energy and balance are correct for the activity being asked then is the tempo too slow?

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Re: under-tempo

Postby chestnut » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:36 pm

Talking about under tempo and the importance of keeping the impulsion - do you think a horse might actually have too much impulsion in its movement? I sometimes have a feeling that particularly big moving young horses with a lot of impulsion (even though in good tempo, not hurried) find it difficult to correctly start accepting half-halts and learning to transform their pushing power into carrying power. Thinking if such horses could benefit from working in slower tempo with a tiny bit of less impulsion during short periods, if they have a forward attitude otherwise and are nicely in front of the leg?

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Re: under-tempo

Postby myleetlepony » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:16 pm

I wouldn't slow the impulsion, just the tempo. You utilize the impulsion for vertical force .

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Re: under-tempo

Postby lorilu » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:02 am

Chestnut, I think sometimes a young horse who is learning to push, and getting stronger, does not know what to do with all the new power! In that case a slower tempo helps. An older horse at my trainer's barn is now in regular work and getting stronger.... and having this problem. Almost as if his back legs "run into" the front end..... (not forging.... different)


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