Okay Internet Jockeys - Mount up: Nip Tuck video for Discussion

[HafDressage]

Okay I need to talk about this video. So, I'm getting out my internet jockey saddle (it's a hennig) and I'm getting on my high horse (his name is Dell).

Let me start by saying, I am a big CH fan and I think Nip Tuck looks a lot stronger and better than he used to. Especially, his frame and neck have seriously improved. Now, that being said, I can't get over how far out behind this horse is and I can't help but think that this wouldn't even be in the 70's if not for his esteemed pilots reputation. Granted, the canter work is all much better than the trot, but in the trot work I just never see a point where I think the horse is really sitting and there are just lots of steps of random unevenness. Soooo, I just don't know about this score.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSyPDp87JS4

What do guys think?

[Flight]

But it's really only the passage that he gets a bit uneven and a bit out behind? The rest of the work is very good, and I was impressed with his balance and self carriage, his execution of movements is exemplary.
So, I would say the mark is right and once passage is better, he would score higher.

But I am a low level rider and really don't know enough!!

[Kelo]

Isn't this the horse that Hester has said has less-than-ideal conformation, but makes up for it in heart? That may have something to do with it.

I personally think they look fabulous. The horse is happy in his work, it is harmonious and active and incredibly pleasant to watch. How is that not worth a 75? There are things that could be improved, but....*shrug* .... that's probably why he didn't get 80%+

[PaulaO]

I am barely a low level rider. My favorite gait to watch is the passage and as I watched this, I said "look how he is sitting down." I think they look fabulous.

[Koolkat]

I get where you're coming from, he barely, if at all, tracks up in the extension and in piaffe bounces off the front legs. Looks like a real trier, though, and things take time (especially Grand Prix, LOL).

[Moutaineer]

My 2 cents... I think this horse has very different conformation than we have become used to seeing in the International arena. He's long as a bus behind the saddle so he's not going to look like he's tracking up like Valegro, for instance.

It was a relaxed, clean, accurate test. Super nice pirouettes, I thought, and all pleasant to watch. I think he was scored correctly.

[mari]

My 2 cents... I think this horse has very different conformation than we have become used to seeing in the International arena. He's long as a bus behind the saddle so he's not going to look like he's tracking up like Valegro, for instance.

It was a relaxed, clean, accurate test. Super nice pirouettes, I thought, and all pleasant to watch. I think he was scored correctly.

I agree with Moutaineer. Loooooong behind the saddle, and I've always thought his hind legs were set on very far back (not sure if there is a more correct description for this...). Lovely test to watch.

[demi]

I wish I could ride my Emma like that.

I found the test inspirational even more so that, as others have pointed out, Nip has some conformational issues. It reminde me of a story Podhajsky tells in one of his books about a mare with a long body. Now I have to go look for the book and read the story again....

[khall]

I really liked the test. Biggest reason is that this is not your typical flashy international horse, but a horse with good solid correct training that is relaxed and with the rider. I thought the score was very appropriate for a clean and accurate test. So happy to see good training being rewarded, not the flashy tensioned work that has been seen in the international world.

[HafDressage]

I both agree with you guys and disagree. I do think that it is a nice test and that the horse is happy, BUT I still don't think you can have an entire GP test where the horse never gets even remotely close to being under himself (and thus showing true collection) and wind up with a 75 in international competition. Not to mention, truly never sits in piaffe or passage. Pause the screen at any point and you won't see a bit of sit in either movement.

I also agree that conformation plays a big role in why the horse doesn't track up and so I guess that maybe we could say that this is "the best the horse can do," but if we viewed this situation conversely and you had a very small moving horse that was tracking up, but not a flashy mover, would it score a 75 at this show? Unlikely I think.

So, while I think CH is amazing and the horse is happy, I still think this is getting some major bonus points.

[Silverbridge]

...I still don't think you can have an entire GP test where the horse never gets even remotely close to being under himself (and thus showing true collection) and wind up with a 75 in international competition. Not to mention, truly never sits in piaffe or passage. Pause the screen at any point and you won't see a bit of sit in either movement.

The horse more than "gets even remotely close to being under himself". That phrase is pure hyperbole.

I actually DID pause the video again and again, the first time I saw this thread several days ago. It's possible to create many still images of Nip Tuck with his hind legs well under him and with sit during the passage, in doing that. Your eye is deceiving you.

[demi]

...I still don't think you can have an entire GP test where the horse never gets even remotely close to being under himself (and thus showing true collection) and wind up with a 75 in international competition. Not to mention, truly never sits in piaffe or passage. Pause the screen at any point and you won't see a bit of sit in either movement.

The horse more than "gets even remotely close to being under himself". That phrase is pure hyperbole.

I actually DID pause the video again and again, the first time I saw this thread several days ago. It's possible to create many still images of Nip Tuck with his hind legs well under him and with sit during the passage, in doing that. Your eye is deceiving you.

I am glad you did the research, Silverbridge, because our eyes can so easily be deceived. I liked the ride in question a lot, without the need to scrutinize it, but I did wonder about what the OP was seeing.

I got out Podhasjsky's books last night and was reminded about HOW MUCH TIME it really takes most horses to develop. There are lots of photos in Podhasjkys's books that show development over time. His horses looked good very early on even though they would continue to develop over time. Nip Tuck looks fabulous now, and I look forward to seeing him in the future.

[HafDressage]

...I still don't think you can have an entire GP test where the horse never gets even remotely close to being under himself (and thus showing true collection) and wind up with a 75 in international competition. Not to mention, truly never sits in piaffe or passage. Pause the screen at any point and you won't see a bit of sit in either movement.

The horse more than "gets even remotely close to being under himself". That phrase is pure hyperbole.

I actually DID pause the video again and again, the first time I saw this thread several days ago. It's possible to create many still images of Nip Tuck with his hind legs well under him and with sit during the passage, in doing that. Your eye is deceiving you.

Sadly, my eye is not deceiving me at all. I paused and repaused and the piaffe and passage does not truly sit. Maybe we are more used to seeing this type of movement now days, but it is clear as day that this horse is nicely performing the movements without really sitting.

For example, compare the piaffe in these videos to what is shown with NipTuck and there is really no argument about sitting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhWjGsPbaXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5XUq56P_I0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEq ... Rj&index=8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v75KftY ... KDLDjl1ZRj

I have no special attachment to the above riders and nor am I saying everything in those videos is perfect, but they are showing sitting. Nor am I insulting CH, who I'm a fan of, I'm just pointing out that with another rider, I don't think the test would have scored as highly. Also, as Jeremy Steinberg recently noted, just because we like someone or they are the hot thing right now doesn't mean we can't question them.

[Ponichiwa]

The piaffe isn't perfect, but if I were a bettin' gal I'd say the judges rewarded the clean transitions into and out of piaffe, the clarity and regularity of the steps, and the appearance of staying on the spot. This would elevate an otherwise meh piaffe into 7 or 7.5 territory.

For example, compare the piaffe in these videos to what is shown with NipTuck and there is really no argument about sitting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhWjGsPbaXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5XUq56P_I0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEq ... Rj&index=8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v75KftY ... KDLDjl1ZRj

All of those horses are built similarly, with a short "wheelbase". This is not how it appears that Nip Tuck is built-- he's quite a bit longer. The movements will appear different (not an excuse, just saying) for him than for horses built on more of a square side profile.

[HafDressage]

The piaffe isn't perfect, but if I were a bettin' gal I'd say the judges rewarded the clean transitions into and out of piaffe, the clarity and regularity of the steps, and the appearance of staying on the spot. This would elevate an otherwise meh piaffe into 7 or 7.5 territory.

For example, compare the piaffe in these videos to what is shown with NipTuck and there is really no argument about sitting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhWjGsPbaXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5XUq56P_I0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEq ... Rj&index=8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v75KftY ... KDLDjl1ZRj

All of those horses are built similarly, with a short "wheelbase". This is not how it appears that Nip Tuck is built-- he's quite a bit longer. The movements will appear different (not an excuse, just saying) for him than for horses built on more of a square side profile.

Ponichiwa - I agree with you, so I do agree that maybe this is decent for this horse given his build. And as I said, he does look a lot better than he used to, so improvement is definitely there. I'm also not saying the horse should have gotten 4's, just that I think with a regular pilot at a regular show, we wouldn't have seen that score because the judges would be pretty hard on those hind legs. Similarly, I think an under himself, but small moving horse wouldn't be granted the same score. So, just pointing it out.

[Chisamba]

Did you want our opinions, or do you simply want to prove yourself right? i would like to know before i bother to venture an opinion so I can harness my expectations.

[Ganas]

If I rode that exact test around here the judges would probably give an 80%. After we revived them with smelling salts. I would have scored it a 73. It's a good hind end and has consistent carry. It is not an out behind pushing against the contact hind end that has no carry. IMO, in general and barring any other major faults, GP tests with inconsistencies in carry score in the 60's. 70 is when it's consistent.

[Silverbridge]

Piaffe is a gait unto itself, not a diagonal trot gait, as it was believed to be for decades.

Ideally it should appear to be a trot in place, to the naked eye. But as Hilary Clayton and other equine biomechanics have discovered, top GP horses perform piaffe in an astonishing variety of ways. It is not a trot gait. Some horses "sit", some do so less, or not really at all.

So I'm not going to argue the quality of his piaffe, based on that knowledge-- which is not new to judges nor to international riders. You don't like it (his piaffe), many people don't mind it. I don't know how that one aspect of his GP test was scored, to total the 75+ %. Maybe it was indeed less appealing to judges than were the other movements he did. Maybe they inflated his piaffe scores just because they were impressed by seeing Carl Hester. It's a subjective system.

You (OP) said, however, that the horse doesn't come under himself at all. You said, not even close. Against THAT, I will (and did) argue. I stop-motioned his PASSAGE and there are many instances of him tracking under himself, and sitting in PASSAGE. As well as in his trot and canter.

He's under himself from behind, throughout the test. You are wrong.

And starting an entire thread to show a bunch of educated dressage riders just how wrong you are, by bashing a top International pair, does not bode well for your future (with regard to respect, I mean) on a board that grew out of a failed bulletin board. A BB that died, in large part, for the reasons exemplified by what you are doing here.

[Chisamba]

The horse is soft, supple and consistent. He is built with his hocks out behind him, you can see it clearly in the halt before the rein back. Despite a good square halt, his hocks are out behind him. This is also evident in the piaffe, which I think is the least good quality of the GP moves.

However the ride in general is so soft, co operative and rhythmic it more than makes up for the conformational difficulties of the horse. I also enjoy seeing this rewarded, for a while it was hard to score seventies if the horse was not hot, tense and electric.

[HafDressage]

You (OP) said, however, that the horse doesn't come under himself at all. You said, not even close. Against THAT, I will (and did) argue. I stop-motioned his PASSAGE and there are many instances of him tracking under himself, and sitting in PASSAGE. As well as in his trot and canter.

He's under himself from behind, throughout the test. You are wrong.

And starting an entire thread to show a bunch of educated dressage riders just how wrong you are, by bashing a top International pair, does not bode well for your future (with regard to respect, I mean) on a board that grew out of a failed bulletin board. A BB that died, in large part, for the reasons exemplified by what you are doing here.

This is ridiculous all over. First of all, I am an educated dressage rider, which includes multiple working student stints, riding upper level horses including GP horses, and currently having trained my fat haflinger to 3rd level, which is not the smallest feat in the world. So don't be silly or insulting. If we say we don't care for something from a top rider all of the sudden we are wrong? Dressage goes through fads. When Toto first came out people on UDBB defended him until their dying breath, now as time has gone on and other horses have come in and out of favor, many will point out flaws all over those tests. Many years ago, people used to say that andreas Helgstrand was the best trainer ever and that matinee was the most amazing horse that ever lived. Now, people comment on the tail swishing, not to mention the Akeem Folger video. So, lets not act like questioning a rider is a ridiculous thing.

Second of all, it's okay for me to say whatever I want about how this horse is going. I haven't said CH is abusing the horse or a bad trainer or rider. I'm just pointing out that this horse isn't sitting, which he is not, regardless of how many times or ways you try to shove your opinion down my throat with insults. Pause the video at any random point in the Pia & Passage work and you won't find where this horse has lowered its croup. But, hey we disagree on this point, so no need to beat it into the ground.

So I said what I had to say, I think the commentary has been interesting so far and nobody should feel offended. Other than your attacks on me in the nature of you trying to tell me I'm uneducated, I am not offended by anyone's opinion so far. I responded to your comments, but I didn't imply anything about you personally. I think it's interesting to hear disagreement even if it doesn't change my opinion. So, I'm not sure why you are getting all insulting about this. In terms of the demise of UDBB, which I don't know a lot about, was it instances like me commenting on a video of someone online or instances of someone like you trying to attack me personally that led to its demise?

[HafDressage]

I should probably also add, that while I still disagree about the sitting, you guys have changed my opinion on most aspects of this test. So, I do many more positives than when I first watched it.

[Flight]

oooh lets not fight. I think it's a good discussion, it makes me look more but I still think that there was so much other great stuff in the test, it's going to keep the score higher regardless of who is riding. (Well with a 'lesser' rider, the horse may not have gone so well in the other stuff).

I just found this article and Carl Hester talks a bit about Nip Tuck:

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2016/0 ... rl-hester/

[musical comedy]

And starting an entire thread to show a bunch of educated dressage riders just how wrong you are, by bashing a top International pair, does not bode well for your future (with regard to respect, I mean) on a board that grew out of a failed bulletin board. A BB that died, in large part, for the reasons exemplified by what you are doing here.

Precisely. Exactly what was the point to this thread, Haf?

If you, Haf, are as educated as you say, then you should know that there is more to a GP dressage test than Piaffe. This is one flaw I see in the opinions of many who critique videos and specifically still photos. From what I read, OP was thinking the score was too high. When you look at his individual marks, which are shown on the below link, you will see he gets lots of 7.5 and 8, even an 8.5 and 9. What is funny is it is the walk marks that are the lowest, and nothing is being said about them.

http://resultados.topiberian.com/results.php/resultscontroller/getdetails/4125/628

You know what? I did not even watch the Carl video because I have no interest in watching international dressage. There's only so many hours in a day when you take care of a farm and ride. I read/watch what can help my riding, which isn't 'pausing' video tapes looking for faults of the best horses and riders in the world.

[Bats79]

If I rode that exact test around here the judges would probably give an 80%. After we revived them with smelling salts. I would have scored it a 73. It's a good hind end and has consistent carry. It is not an out behind pushing against the contact hind end that has no carry. IMO, in general and barring any other major faults, GP tests with inconsistencies in carry score in the 60's. 70 is when it's consistent.

I think exactly the same thing. This test will have generated huge scores for it's consistency and accuracy. I really like it all the way up to the first piaffe EXCEPT for the halts. In both the entry halt and the halt before the reinback he lacked engagement - the subsequent movements reflected this - the trot off on the centre line was unbalanced and the reinback was on the forehand. But the rest of the work was carried on the hindquarter.

Didn't like the piaffe - rump high, not carrying behind - but the transitions were good.

I'm glad Carl Hester is willing to stick with this horse because it reminds us that TRAINING is what it is about rather than haveing the money to buy a horse that seems to be "bred for success".

[Silverbridge]

If we say we don't care for something from a top rider all of the sudden we are wrong?

That isn't what you did, though. You didn't say that you "didn't care for it." You said it was a GP test in which Nip Tuck didn't even come close to coming under himself, throughout, and that the piaffe and passage showed no sit at all. Those are false observations.

If a horse went cantering by, and you said, "Look at that trot!", would others then not be allowed to tell you that you're wrong, that the horse is cantering and not trotting? Or is trotting versus cantering a matter of opinion-- and nobody should be able to tell you that you're not seeing what you say you are? Because you can't possibly be wrong, it's all just an opinion?

There's ridiculousness here, but it's not coming from me.

So I said what I had to say, I think the commentary has been interesting so far and nobody should feel offended.

Initiating the thread is offensive. "Nobody" should be offended? What about Carl Hester? What about people who know what coming under looks like? What about people who know what it takes to score a 75? Couching it all in cutesy language-- "Internet jockeys, mount up" doesn't make it unoffensive.

You started it on the offense. Now you have to deal with the defense. If dissecting top pairs is important to your development of your eye, okay. A lot of people on the Internet feel that way. Own it. But don't pretend nobody should be offended.

[demi]

Thank you, Flight, for posting the interview article with Carl Hester. It really adds to the discussion. I appreciated getting a look at how he feels about training horses that aren't gold medalists. He's a real horseman, in my opinion. His explanation of Nip Tuck along with the schooling photos might clear things up for some of us.

HafDressage, I personally liked how you started this discussion out by saying you are a big fan of Carl Hester, and it's good that after some discussion, you are now looking at the ride in question more positively! As Silverbridge did, I also took umbridge at your comment about Nip "not even remotely coming under himself". Maybe a milder description of what you were seeing would have gone over better. Silverbridge added some interesting, well explained information, and that's the kind of stuff that made UDBB so valuable. I like DDBB, but I miss some of the posters from UDBB. I miss hearing about some of the horses (a certain gray mare included) that I had grown fond of...I want to know how they are doing.

Maybe, HafDressage, you would like to come over to the goals thread!? It's a nice place with some really nice riders and horses. Your horse is such a hunk, I personally would love to watch him progress. I could look at pictures of him all day!

[demi]

If I rode that exact test around here the judges would probably give an 80%. After we revived them with smelling salts....

[HafDressage]

Silverbridge - Move on. You have said what you have to say ad nauseam. I strongly disagree and it is laughable to think that a. Carl Hester is reading this internet forum or b. that he would care about our conversation in any way. At this point, I find you your comments towards me increasingly rude. Everyone else has managed to post on this thread in a appropriate unoffensive way except for you. Maybe reflect on that. Feel free to discontinue posting on this thread since my initial post and all subsequent posts have caused you such anger and angst.

If I rode that exact test around here the judges would probably give an 80%. After we revived them with smelling salts. I would have scored it a 73. It's a good hind end and has consistent carry. It is not an out behind pushing against the contact hind end that has no carry. IMO, in general and barring any other major faults, GP tests with inconsistencies in carry score in the 60's. 70 is when it's consistent.

I think exactly the same thing. This test will have generated huge scores for it's consistency and accuracy. I really like it all the way up to the first piaffe EXCEPT for the halts. In both the entry halt and the halt before the reinback he lacked engagement - the subsequent movements reflected this - the trot off on the centre line was unbalanced and the reinback was on the forehand. But the rest of the work was carried on the hindquarter.

Didn't like the piaffe - rump high, not carrying behind - but the transitions were good.

I'm glad Carl Hester is willing to stick with this horse because it reminds us that TRAINING is what it is about rather than haveing the money to buy a horse that seems to be "bred for success".

I do think it's good that he stuck with training the horse as well and yes, if that is just his conformation than there is hope the rest of us with less than perfectly conformed horses can do well as well. If you look back to one of his GP tests from 2 years ago, the canter work and overall frame is much improved. I would still make some of the same arguments about the pi & passage (although there are some moments I actually like better in the older test), so I'm not sure if that has improved as drastically as the rest of the work, but overall there is definite improvement.
2years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEChrSP_TMc


Also, I watched an interview with CH and I found it interesting that he said the unevenness that occurs in the passage is because the horse is so sensitive that even the slightest movement of his leg will trigger a reaction from the horse. So, basically he sees it and knows what goes on there, which I found enlightening given that typically if there is unevenness in the passage most trainers will relate it to a suppleness or strength issue. In his case, he's too much of a trier. Now there is a problem I'll never have with my tubby boy.

[HafDressage]

Exactly what was the point to this thread, Haf?

You know what? I did not even watch the Carl video because I have no interest in watching international dressage. There's only so many hours in a day when you take care of a farm and ride. I read/watch what can help my riding, which isn't 'pausing' video tapes looking for faults of the best horses and riders in the world.

The point was simply to discuss, which we are doing. I find it interesting and educational. If you aren't a fan of the post or of discussing international rides, then that's okay too. It won't stop me from posting similar videos or expressing my opinion in the future. With the exception of comments intended to insult me, I find it fun.

[khall]

I really liked the interview with CH. Explains a good bit of the issues he had with Nip Tuck. So cudos to CH for taking a problematic moving horse and turning him into a GP international horse. Speaks a lot to his horsemanship and training.

[kande50]

The point was simply to discuss, which we are doing. I find it interesting and educational. If you aren't a fan of the post or of discussing international rides, then that's okay too. It won't stop me from posting similar videos or expressing my opinion in the future. With the exception of comments intended to insult me, I find it fun.

I think the top riders are good ones to critique, because they're so advanced compared to most of those who are critiquing that I doubt they're insulted by it, and because they are the ones we should be trying to emulate, right? So IMO, it's not a bad thing to try to figure out which parts of their tests are likely part of the 25% of points that they didn't get, and which parts are likely part of the 75% they did.

One thing I look for in passage and piaffe is how the hind legs work, and whether or not they "bounce/hover/skip" rather than taking more weight and staying lower while continuing to travel in a smooth, even arc. This horse does hover a bit, which tells me that he's not shifting his weight to his hinds as much he should, which is consistent with what HafDressage sees.

That said though, I'm guessing that CH is trying to ride his horses (or at least this horse) more open so that they can learn to shift more weight to their hinds, and if this is true I think he, and the top riders who ride like him, are going to be producing even better work than they already are.

[lorilu]

EDITED: Oops just saw that someone beat me to the article. Oh well. If you have nto read it you should!

Ya'll might want to read this article, an interview with CH. He discusses Nip Tuck's issues, and compares him to Valegro (briefly...). He is apparently NOT the easiest or the most talented horse.
And I agree that there is more to the piaffe/passage score than just the sitting.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2016/0 ... rl-hester/

[capstone]

What is funny is it is the walk marks that are the lowest, and nothing is being said about them.

I noticed the walk (what I thought were anomalies in the walk) but was afraid to mention it because no one else had mentioned it. Maybe I'm seeing things. But I'm sensitive to this because I can easily make my horse tense and not fluid in the walk.

[Chisamba]

Honestly I do not remember the walk, I possibly skimmed past. Mea culpa.

[HafDressage]

What is funny is it is the walk marks that are the lowest, and nothing is being said about them.

I noticed the walk (what I thought were anomalies in the walk) but was afraid to mention it because no one else had mentioned it. Maybe I'm seeing things. But I'm sensitive to this because I can easily make my horse tense and not fluid in the walk.

Yeah, I agree, the walk is not great, but I do think it is tactfully ridden. My guess is that the horse either wants to go go or has a tendency for lateral, which some riders deal with by sloooowing down to make each step purposeful. My guess is that, plus not having a great reach in the walk in the first place, is what makes it look a little wonky. Also, I think it was scored lower, so wasn't so much of a point of interest.

I will say after watching the video several times now, the canter work is truly a highlight.

I know CH buys them young, but how much do you think he pays for these guys? I would be curious what he paid for Valegro relative to Nip Tuck.

[Flight]

I do find it a bit rude to pick on the top riders, however this discussion is educational and I seriously doubt Carl Hester would be reading it and if he was he'd probably laugh at us anyway!

I LOVE that he has said he is training a not so easy horse and making something great of him. It is making dressage about the training and not the flashiness and that is exciting to me!

[capstone]

I know CH buys them young, but how much do you think he pays for these guys? I would be curious what he paid for Valegro relative to Nip Tuck.

http://phelpssports.com/dressage/viewar ... hp?id=2121

From the article:

“Valegro was 5,000 Euro. Nip Tuck was, I think, 2,500 Euro as a foal.”

[heronponie]

CH is still kind of sainted in my mind as a coach/trainer, not just because he builds horses from scratch but also because he handed the reins of his best horse to his student. Who else in dressage has that kind of humility and generosity? Such a win in my books.

[airefjordphil]

Exactly my view Heronponie. Carl sits at the top of my list for that game "With what famous person would you most want to have dinner?" It is so exciting that someone w/ his values is having such success on the international scene.

[demi]

I hesitate to even come back to this thread because it makes me sad. Having an internet forum like this is an amazing way to learn about our sport. I works in ways that lessons, books, and videos can't duplicate. We have some really knowledgeable posters and they do us a favor by sharing their knowledge for FREE! UDBB lost some really good posters because they weren't appreciated, and I am sad to think it may be happening again.

Piaffe is a gait unto itself, not a diagonal trot gait, as it was believed to be for decades.

Ideally it should appear to be a trot in place, to the naked eye. But as Hilary Clayton and other equine biomechanics have discovered, top GP horses perform piaffe in an astonishing variety of ways. It is not a trot gait. Some horses "sit", some do so less, or not really at all.....

This is good information. I didn't know that piaffe wasn't a diagonal gait. Knowing this now clears up a lot of what I've been reading about piaffe.

[demi]

My first impression as I watched the video of Carl Hester and Nip Tuck, was that the whole ride was beautiful. And I still think so. I think it can be looked on as art.

I think what Paul Belasik says about piaffe, in his book "Riding Towards the Light", is interesting. It's from chapter 6, Prize Riding, pp. 89-105. He compares classical dressage to poetry. He says, and I quote: "The Haiku poet focuses his attention on new and personal ways to express something within this style. As impossible as it sounds, no two poems are alike, and furthermore, there seems to be no end to the supply of these original works. They are as infinite as creation itself."
A little later in the chapter he says: Much of the time it is not the movement in itself which determines the kind of riding, but the whole approach or philosophy of the training.....The riders' and trainers' tasks are to execute, within strict structures, something that is unique to the spirit of a particular horse. One thousand horses may stand side by side in the piaffe and no two will be the same. The rider and the horse's range of expression, like the poems, is also as infinite as creativity itself."

NOT to say that technical skill is not important, but certainly we don't need to critique Carl Hester's technicals skills. His skill combined with his philosophy and approach to training fit the description of an artist.

[Chisamba]

The piaffe IS a diagonalized gait, it is not considered a true trot because modern technology has shown that it has no state of suspension.

[HafDressage]

Exactly my view Heronponie. Carl sits at the top of my list for that game "With what famous person would you most want to have dinner?" It is so exciting that someone w/ his values is having such success on the international scene.

Oh Yes, I totally agree on all of these points. If given the opportunity, I would totally worship at his training shrine and in general he just seems like a hilarious person that just about anybody would want to hang out with.


To address a few of the other comments:
One thing that I think a few are confused about is the difference between comments on movements in a ride and comments on the training system or person. I haven't made a single comment (unless complementary) about CH's training system, riding, or person. I am commenting on what is being shown in an international show ride that is posted for public viewing. Discussing these rides is a valuable tool and if people aren't interested in discussing or don't want to hear that someone they like is anything but absolutely perfect, they have the freedom to not post on the thread or to ignore. It's really not as dramatic as some seem to want to make it out to be. Somebody else is welcome to start a thread about how amazing CH is and we can all gush over everything in that thread.

http://resultados.topiberian.com/result ... s/4125/628

Okay I hadn't seen this before until someone posted it above (and I just looked at it now). Pretty cool to see the scores and the variance. Interesting that one french judge had it at a 78 and another at a 73. Of course, there is always some differences based on where the judge is sitting. Too bad we can't see the comments, now that would truly be awesome.


Another interesting one:
Same show, but on Wanadoo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBaznDZNiiY

I know CH buys them young, but how much do you think he pays for these guys? I would be curious what he paid for Valegro relative to Nip Tuck.

http://phelpssports.com/dressage/viewar ... hp?id=2121

From the article:

“Valegro was 5,000 Euro. Nip Tuck was, I think, 2,500 Euro as a foal.”

Pretty interesting. In one of the videos it shows one of his pastures with a bunch of beautiful 2 year olds that are just hanging around until they are old enough to ride. While watching it, I just about drooled on my keyboard.