Intro to Pirouettes: What's your strategy?

[Ponichiwa]

Spinning off from the 8-week challenge thread...

What's your go-to for introducing pirouettes to your horse? I'll go first:

Exercise 1: The Octagon
Helpful for introducing the idea of sitting and turning; can be performed in any gait (but my mind breaks when trying it in trot)
- On a 20m circle in your collected gait of choice, ride straight for 2-3 strides and then 1 step of turning by closing the outside turning aids (outside rein used indirectly, outside knee/thigh closed to turn the shoulders as needed, inside hip and leg keeping bend to inside)
Variations: can increase the degree of turning to make a 20-m pentagon, square, or triangle.
If canter gets overcollected, you can abandon the exercise and open the canter back up on a nice friendly 20m circle.

Exercise 2: Super confirmed walk pirouettes
- Collected walk on the long side
- 1/3 turn in walk pirouette, exit in medium walk (but without dropping any reins)
- 1/3 turn walk pirouette in opposite direction
Exercise can be varied to any number of steps (i.e. 1/4 pirouette, 1/2 pirouette, either direction), but must have the ability to leave the pirouette at any time
Advanced: Canter from the walk pirouette and keep turning for 1-2 strides. I recommend exiting the pirouette and canter on for several strides before returning to walk and repeat.
Benefits/pitfalls: can help get the idea of turning aids through, but can also back the horse off behind the aids. Recommend refreshing the go-forward aids with a nice brisk medium trot after 2-3 repetitions.

Exercise 3: Keeping the bend regardless of canter stride
Helpful for a horse that tends to lead into the pirouettes with the haunches
- Canter down the long side in shoulder in
- Develop medium canter in shoulder in
- Halfway down the wall, collected canter and 10-m circle
- Continue in shoulder in
- Before the corner, super collected canter in shoulder in. If the horse can maintain the bend while collecting, you can close your outside knee and turn your shoulders into the center of the arena and POOF! Pirouette steps
If at any time the bend disappears or the canter feels stuck, do some nice big open cantering down the long side to regain the forward. Turning is secondary to being able to collect within the bend.
Highly recommend not progressing to the next step of the above exercise until your horse is even in both reins and accepting the bend through the body. Only ask for 1-2 steps of turn if the aforementioned conditions are met.

I've had instructors ask me to canter in haunches-in on a circle to develop the carrying outside hind, but this can introduce some bad habits. So I'm not a fan-- but I'm sure it'll end up helping my next horse.

[Niki]

The simplified answer is that my coach has me riding diamond shapes to start. Having said that we already have tof, toh, half pass, side pass, si, renver/traver established and we can swap between them all easily. He has me ride the diamond/square at walk then progress to trot and then canter. My mare is quite the overachiever so i find for me its more about controlling the size steps she takes than anything else. Canter is still our weakest pace in that it has the least adjustability yet so its a work in progress.

[Chisamba]

I do not turn my horse with the outside leg, yes i know that some do but my outside leg remains back to keep the quarters from stepping out and to maintain bend.

Inside leg at girth, outside leg behind, always means the same thing.

I like doing squares, at walk, at trot , and at canter, simply moving the shoulder 45 degrees around the corner. Straight, bend , turn, straight.

I also like to do spiralling in and out on the circle in shoulder in

I also like spiralling in and out on the circle in Travers.

[galopp]

In walk there needs to be a basis in turns on the haunches first. And the horse must know well the rein effects (opening rein) and bearing rein. That means the ability to do all lateral work (on circles and straight ahead) to check the reactions to the leg/etc. to first be able to move into the outside rein and reacting to the outside leg's placement). Then start to collect (not shorten the stride per se, and keep the activity/tempo). Quarter pirouettes (riding a square), and going forward. First is ALWAYS sustaining the the ACTIVITY/regularity. Even if a little large, NEVER 'screwing' and missing a step. Later half toH, and onces the horse has learned how to take half halts and stay up to the bridle, then start the pirouettes. Then ride out and extend the stride, allow more bascule. Folding the hind leg joints in walk where there is no moment of suspension is very difficult, that is why the walk is the last gait to be ridden in steadily collection.

Imho in CP are three things needed: 1. the ability to collect the canter onto the spot and move out, and 2. a good grasp on shoulder in and travers (moving into the outside rein, being straight enough, and reacting to the inside leg near the girth, and the passive outside leg's placement) and the ability therein to do shoulder in, travers on circles, and 3. the ability to do walk pirouettes well. (Keep the hands lightly lifted or the horse will start to climb).

For me, collect the canter onto the spot, and do 1/4 pirouettes, and go forward. Never too much bending, just flexion lightly. Collect, turn, go. (This same thing can be done in piaffe pirouettes.) Later 1/2 p (4 strides), and c.p (8 strides). Not slower, and not too few stirdes. Collect form just sitting up and having hrose meet hand.

[piedmontfields]

Ponichiwa, your list is similar to what I've been taught and have played with, although we are much less experienced than you. I like Gallop's summary.

I have also been taught that reaction to the sit bone as a turning aid is an important part of the pirouette foundation. I wonder what others think of that?

[Niki]

I have also been taught that reaction to the sit bone as a turning aid is an important part of the pirouette foundation. I wonder what others think of that?

Im far from a pro but from my own experiences with my mare i think this is true. I know i have to be very careful when i start thinking piri as she over reacts and i feel this is in reaction to my seat change more than anything else.

[demi]

.... I like Gallop's summary....

Me, too. Especially the thought about "collect from just sitting up and having the horse meet the hand".

I only wish I was working on pirouttes at the moment. But still am finding this tread interesting. I hope to hear more from you all about your thoughts and progress.

[galopp]

(It starts in walk......)

[HafDressage]

This is a super timely thread for me right now. I introduced canter pirouettes to my tubbo haflinger for the first time a few weeks ago. My trainer wanted me to do the TOH turn it into CP method (which is what we tried first), but I was already thinking this is not the best idea for a horse that naturally wants to be a slug bug (interesting to hear that confirmed by someone else). I've only worked on it once since then, where I did just the first turn of a "square." I think that went much better. I'm probably going to try the square (1/4 turns) at some point in the next couple of weeks and then maybe I will give this Octagon suggestion a try, although the thought of an octagon in 20 meters blows my mind a little.

Thanks for starting this thread!

[exvet]

I do a lot of forwards and back in the trot and then the canter with the goal of eventually collecting on the spot in canter. As I get closer to truly collecting on the spot I start to introduce the 1/4 pirouettes/square exercise. Another exercise that I had a local trainer had me do with my last PSG horse was to get the horse forward and sharp off the forward aids, then use just the seat to achieve halt, reinback and then canter. After a few of those then do a walk pirouette followed by the canter pirouette. It really helped that horse.

My nemesis has always been applying the appropriately timed turning aids. I can collect until the cows come home and as long as I'm building strength in the hind end, my horses can handle the sit but I'm not fast enough, usually, to apply the aids to turn which leaves my horses confused a bit until MY body gets it sorted out ..............but that's the fun of being an amateur with a full-time job that isn't related to riding........

[orono]

I like collecting the canter on a straight line, as 'on the spot' as possible (just a few strides at a time), having the adjustability of stride helps for the actual pirouette. I also like riding pirouettes in a w/c/w fashion - starting the pir in walk, then asking for the canter, maintaining it for a few strides, and finishing in the walk.

[mld02004]

Haunches in on a 20 meter circle, then spiral in slowly. We also practice pirouette canter by asking for ultra collection between the two quarterlines on a large circle.

[lorilu]

I do not turn my horse with the outside leg, yes i know that some do but my outside leg remains back to keep the quarters from stepping out and to maintain bend.

Chisamba, what about your outside thigh? Do you close it to help turn the shoulders, or is it mostly your weight on inside seat/etc?

[Chisamba]

I do not turn my horse with the outside leg, yes i know that some do but my outside leg remains back to keep the quarters from stepping out and to maintain bend.

Chisamba, what about your outside thigh? Do you close it to help turn the shoulders, or is it mostly your weight on inside seat/etc?

the outside leg behind the girth, acts in each stride, but with contact not with pressure, to keep the horse from stepping out and to keep the outside hind leg moving around the inside leg. no, i do not use the outside thigh , the waist is turned slightly in the direction of the movement, which will bring the outside thigh in contact, but not with pressure, the inside seatbone therefore has a little more weight, the inside leg is on the girth, also acting with each stride , the chest is just a little back , to help collect the shoulders, but the body is NOT behind the vertical, the inside rein opens slightly for bend and direction and the outside rein acts indirectly to move the shoulder.

[demi]

Chisamba, that's a clear, concise, description of your aids. Thank you. I am going to copy it and keep it for reference. I tried two walk half TOH's tonight and wish I would have read your description first. The TOH's weren't in my plan for tonight's ride, but this thread has been on my mind, especially Galopp's "(it starts in the walk....)" .

So now i'm really looking forward to trying it again tomorrow.

[piedmontfields]

Two thoughts from this week's efforts:

For our walk pirouettes, I need to think S L O W and E A S Y. Both miss caffeinated-mare and me can get rushy in these and then the quality goes to pieces. But they are fairly solid if I think about doing them in slow motion (and they are not actually in slow motion LOL!).

For working towards pirouette canter, I need to trust that my sitbone and seat aids are enough and keep my reins aids quieter. I think I was doing way too much mare shoulder management with the reins instead of clarifying our position with my seat/my shoulders.

Exvet, my mare loves halt, reinback and then canter---it's like her little working equitation brain comes on!

[Ponichiwa]

I've been using pirouettes to help the quality of the changes, and it's been really helpful. I start by doing square turns on approximately a 20m "circle". Then, instead of a 90* turn I ask for 120* (triangle instead of square) and set off across the diagonal. Ask for the change within 2-3 strides from leaving the pirouette.

Results: much more uphill, expressive changes. And the change to the hard direction is much easier. I only do this 1-2 times each direction and then I leave it alone, because that amount of engagement is asking a lot from Kiwi.

About the outside leg... I used to ride with my thighs/knees really off of the horse, and I've had to teach myself to actually use my entire leg instead of letting it sit there like a noodle. So I may be coming at the leg aids from a different place than other riders.

[piedmontfields]

I've been using pirouettes to help the quality of the changes, and it's been really helpful. I start by doing square turns on approximately a 20m "circle". Then, instead of a 90* turn I ask for 120* (triangle instead of square) and set off across the diagonal. Ask for the change within 2-3 strides from leaving the pirouette.

I am totally trying this with Emi when we return to this work---thanks for the good idea!

[galopp]

One you start with CP, the ride counter canter on the inside track, and do 1/2 and 3/4 CP at every inside track. The wall collects the horse w/o rider effort. And for me, the inside leg is what keeps the horse active.

[Ponichiwa]

Hey Piedmontfields, how'd it go?

[piedmontfields]

Thanks for asking. I *still* haven't played with this properly. Miss mare has had a couple of foot issues/tenderness with sloughing soles and we have dialed it down for a few weeks. She is now feeling better and I promise to report back in April.

[piedmontfields]

In fact tonight was a little more like real work, thanks to warm temps (70s F). My mare loves it hot! (pssm is no doubt part of that)

But the quick warm-up ride and then canter work got to half pass to canter plies (leg yield) to 10 m circles to medium canter. Just trying to open up that engine and those hips!

p.s. It is snowing where I'm from the US (upstate NY). But awfully nice down here in the mid-south (Tennessee).

[Ryeissa]

One idea from Paul Belasik:

Traver down long side in canter, make an 8 or 10m circle still in cantering HI, HP back to rail, at rail continue down longside in counter canter. Flying change when you want. So essentially you go down the longside, circle, and come back in the opposite way.

I love games like this where you link things together but it's still dealing with comfortable subjects.

[Ponichiwa]

Bumping this up for relevant discussion from the Dec 2016 Goals thread.

Additionally, I've built on the quarter-pirouette square exercise with the following:
- Establish canter along short side.
- 120* pirouette in corner, canter out along short diagonal.
- Flying change on centerline
- Quarter-pirouette at wall to another short diagonal
- Flying change on centerline

Repeat as necessary. I really like it for both improving the quality of the flying change via the collection from the pirouette, and the quality of the pirouette via the increased jump from the change. It also provides a good mirror for the pirouettes when the L and R pirouettes are placed so close together-- you can troubleshoot the weaker pirouette by using the stronger one and figuring out what is different about your body/aids and your horse's body/reactions.

[HafDressage]

This is timely for me as well.

I would be curious to get some opinion about teaching this with haunches in or not. I've heard a lot of trainers teach large working prios by bring the haunches in on the circle. May last trainer though objected to that because she is of of the school that you are trying to bring the forehand around the haunches and if you bring the haunches in, you are continually making that harder.

So, I can't quite decide where that leaves me except that I know we can't do it out of a walk piro because it doesn't give us enough forward energy.

Thoughts on the haunches in or not?

[HafDressage]

Bumping this up for relevant discussion from the Dec 2016 Goals thread.

Additionally, I've built on the quarter-pirouette square exercise with the following:
- Establish canter along short side.
- 120* pirouette in corner, canter out along short diagonal.
- Flying change on centerline
- Quarter-pirouette at wall to another short diagonal
- Flying change on centerline

Repeat as necessary. I really like it for both improving the quality of the flying change via the collection from the pirouette, and the quality of the pirouette via the increased jump from the change. It also provides a good mirror for the pirouettes when the L and R pirouettes are placed so close together-- you can troubleshoot the weaker pirouette by using the stronger one and figuring out what is different about your body/aids and your horse's body/reactions.

This seems like a good idea. I can give it a go today if the footing is okay.

[Dresseur]

Ok, also a very fun discussion! I've heard trainers talk about doing piris from the shoulder in, or moving the shoulders around the haunches. I've not seen piris taught with that method that actually sat and had the inside hind stroke up under the mass. IMO, that method tends to produce piris that spin out (not a blanket statement, just a general observation.)

So, my method and the method that I was taught - the horse has to be well versed in haunches in first. Walk/canter/walks are also a pre-requisite, and half pass in the canter helps as well because it means that you can move the horse around in space. On a large 20 meter circle, ask for the haunches to come slightly in. It is imperative that you maintain the rhythm and the fluidity of the stride, and that you feel the haunches flex a bit behind the saddle. Keep the circle very large, and be in no hurry to close it down. As the horse gains strength, you can start to spiral it down a bit. Leaving the haunches in is very important too so that they learn to stay collected and not just dump down on the forehand.

The other exercise (slightly more advanced) that seems to really turn some lightbulbs on is to do haunches in down the long wall, and then ask for a very large demi-volte in haunches in and then half pass to the wall - then either do CC, simple change or flying change to get onto the correct lead. The big thing here is not to let the horse turn off the wall, but to keep the haunches in and under as they start the demi-volte. Doing the half pass back to the wall keeps the inside hind stroking up under the mass. I'll go a step further and say that for ALL the piri work, it is incredibly important that the FIRST step is in, under the horse's mass, most want to step out on the first step and then swing the shoulders around like a gate. Again, why turning the shoulders around the haunches tends to be problematic. If you have a good haunches in, the horse will stay soft to the inside and will maintain a proper bend - but if you don't have the flex and sit behind, the piri's will never sit.

[Ponichiwa]

This is timely for me as well.

I would be curious to get some opinion about teaching this with haunches in or not. I've heard a lot of trainers teach large working prios by bring the haunches in on the circle. May last trainer though objected to that because she is of of the school that you are trying to bring the forehand around the haunches and if you bring the haunches in, you are continually making that harder.

So, I can't quite decide where that leaves me except that I know we can't do it out of a walk piro because it doesn't give us enough forward energy.

Thoughts on the haunches in or not?

My experience: haunches can swing overly to the inside as a compensating mechanism when horses aren't yet strong enough to sit down within a pirouette or pirouette canter for sustained periods. So if you're schooling haunches in as an intro to pirouettes, be careful (as Dresseur says above) that the haunches keep stepping underneath the body and not off to the side of the body.

[Flight]

I've noticed my horse gets a bit stiff, above the bit and slows down when I start asking for haunches in on a circle in canter. I'm assuming it's just that he's not yet strong and supple enough to do it well yet. I've just been asking for little bit at a time, and there has been improvement, but it's a slow process?

[Dresseur]

How is the regular haunches in and how big of a circle are you on? When I start it, I literally ask for 2 or 3 steps and then back out on a very large circle. The other thing to check on is your canter/collected canter. Does that hollow and slow also? If so, make sure the hinds are staying active- collection does not and should not slow down- the tempo should stay the same.

If everything is checking out ok, then make sure that you are keeping the hind legs active enough so that the withers are lifting between your hands. That it slows down is a sure sign that you are loosing the energy of the haunches. So, make sure that your haunches in on the long wall doesn't flatten and keeps the jump, because if it does, the large working piris will break apart too. Also be mindful that you aren't thinking to collect it too much and are actually getting rigid in your hands- just keep thinking sweep the haunches under and go for the fluidity. Just small responses at first because if there is too much bend, the movement will also break apart.

[Flight]

The collected canter can have an inclination to slow in tempo, but haunches in on the long side is ok. I ask on a 20m circle.
Thanks Dresseur for your post, a few things to think about. I wonder if I try too hard and get rigid, I'd say that will be definitely contributing to the problems!

[HafDressage]

Sometimes I feel like every time I post on here, something goes wrong and I can't ride. I know it sounds silly, but that is the primary reason I don't do the monthly "goals" posts. So, as expected, it's done nothing but rain here since I posted about the piros.

I'm hoping tomorrow it will be dry enough to get back to it and play with a few exercises. I really want to give the 120 piro (although it will be big and working) to a flying change across the diagonal exercise a try. The flying changes get him excited and he needs that for the collected work because even though he has the ability/talent for collection, he also is a lazy bum, so he would just as soon poop out on me altogether. So, hopefully this might be a nice combo of fun and work.

Fingers crossed this post doesn't result in 5 more days of rain.

[piedmontfields]

I'm hoping tomorrow it will be dry enough to get back to it and play with a few exercises. I really want to give the 120 piro (although it will be big and working) to a flying change across the diagonal exercise a try. ...Fingers crossed this post doesn't result in 5 more days of rain.

HafDressage, I wish you dry weather and best of luck in opportunities to pursue your training! I do enjoy your updates and photos---and find them very inspiring, as I have a rather "short-necked" mare. Embarassingly, Ponichiwa's exercises is STILL on my to do and achieve list (it has been 9 months!!). A combo of working on other things, dealing with my health and trying to figure out what strength we need to have a decent shot at this exercise has slowed me down. However, I do think it could be fair for us to give it a whirl now (if it ever stops raining).

[HafDressage]

I'm hoping tomorrow it will be dry enough to get back to it and play with a few exercises. I really want to give the 120 piro (although it will be big and working) to a flying change across the diagonal exercise a try. ...Fingers crossed this post doesn't result in 5 more days of rain.

HafDressage, I wish you dry weather and best of luck in opportunities to pursue your training! I do enjoy your updates and photos---and find them very inspiring, as I have a rather "short-necked" mare. Embarassingly, Ponichiwa's exercises is STILL on my to do and achieve list (it has been 9 months!!). A combo of working on other things, dealing with my health and trying to figure out what strength we need to have a decent shot at this exercise has slowed me down. However, I do think it could be fair for us to give it a whirl now (if it ever stops raining).

Thank you Piedmont! Very sweet of you to say that. <3 So, good news. I posted on here and then rode! Soooo, maybe I can try to end my redic paranoia.

Today was the first day it was dry enough for me to try a few things. I went to try Ponichiwa's exercise and I think I somehow failed at it.

I went down the longside (although technically just straight bc I was out in a massive field), then did the working piro and then across the diagonal, but that meant I was say on the left lead (headed towards the track going left and then trying to do a left to right change and so... then I just got massively confused about where I was trying to go next. SO, that was kind of comical and confusing. I ended up just trying to work some quarter- piros after the long-side. In terms of those, the first few strides feel great and then I think the going gets tough and he really wants to die out from under me. So, I'll have to work on building the strength for more than just the very beginning of the turn while also making it fun in some way. Perhaps I'll try doing a quarter piro and then forward to a little (and I mean super little) X-rail of some sort.

Ponichiwa - Can you give me some letters for your exercise so that I can try it again with a better idea of where I'm going.

[Ponichiwa]

HafDressage: It rides like a very angular serpentine. You can make this easier by decreasing the angle you're turning and harder by increasing the angle and decreasing the steps between the pirouettes. I've ridden it like a 3-loop serpentine with square turns along the long side and a change each time crossing the center along a short line.

Variations:



Easier: left lead canter at A. 1/6th pirouette at F; leave and ride towards X. Flying change on quarterline. 1/6th pirouette at X; leave and ride towards M. Flying change on quarterline.

Harder: left lead canter at A. 1/3 pirouette at F; leave and ride towards E. Flying change at L. 1/4 pirouette at E; leave and ride towards M. Flying change at I.

Hardest: left lead canter at A. Quarter pirouette in corner, leave and ride straight down long side. Quarter pirouette at P, ride straight towards V. Flying change at L. 1/4 pirouette at V, ride straight to E. Quarter pirouette at P, ride straight towards B. Flying change at X. Quarter pirouette at B, ride straight down long side towards R. Quarter pirouette at R, flying change at I, quarter pirouette at S.

[galopp]

Ok, have a question: how many strides are those easy/less/hardest? Usually one first asks for a canter almost onto the place and moves on. A quarter pirouette is collect (into the outside rein), move into turn, ride forward again from inside leg(st across), three strides (collect, enter/turn, go forward again. Coordinating inside leg and outside hand while collecting. It is very difficult for a student just to learn the logic to do this and have control between collecting/turning/riding forward. But it is key to straightness which prevents the horse from advancing the hind legs too far under, over bending laterally, and loosing collection.

[Ponichiwa]

Ideal (GP-quality) full pirouette is 6-8 strides, which would lead you to a 2-stride quarter pirouette. That's too much turning most horses that are new(ish) to pirouettes so I'd ask for somewhere between 2-4 strides depending on what the horse is telling me and school towards fewer (but maintaining bend and canter quality) over time.

Smaller angles (1/6th) may take fewer strides but this is pretty strongly dependent on the horse's current abilities. Logical limit here is that the pirouette canter can be developed without adding any turning steps at all (when introducing canter pirouette work).

[galopp]

It is just ask (collect), turn, go forward. If it is less what is the rider doing? Collecting but not turning, or turning but not going forward. For me that misses a step. THE first issue is collecting (onto the spot) before asking any turning. If they cannot do that they cannot turn. Are they into the outside rein (i.e. shoulder fore) which aids in the straightness? Can they do travers on a volte? Also the ease of answering the outside leg but stay in front of the inside one.

[HafDressage]

HafDressage: It rides like a very angular serpentine. You can make this easier by decreasing the angle you're turning and harder by increasing the angle and decreasing the steps between the pirouettes. I've ridden it like a 3-loop serpentine with square turns along the long side and a change each time crossing the center along a short line.

Variations:



Easier: left lead canter at A. 1/6th pirouette at F; leave and ride towards X. Flying change on quarterline. 1/6th pirouette at X; leave and ride towards M. Flying change on quarterline.

Harder: left lead canter at A. 1/3 pirouette at F; leave and ride towards E. Flying change at L. 1/4 pirouette at E; leave and ride towards M. Flying change at I.

Hardest: left lead canter at A. Quarter pirouette in corner, leave and ride straight down long side. Quarter pirouette at P, ride straight towards V. Flying change at L. 1/4 pirouette at V, ride straight to E. Quarter pirouette at P, ride straight towards B. Flying change at X. Quarter pirouette at B, ride straight down long side towards R. Quarter pirouette at R, flying change at I, quarter pirouette at S.

Ponichiwa - I am literally laughing out loud thinking about what I was trying to do versus what I was supposed to be doing. So hilarious. So, I was completely completely off in every which way. THANK YOU so much for the directions by letter. SO super helpful. I'll try this and report back.

THE first issue is collecting (onto the spot) before asking any turning.

This was the first thing I schooled, but my boy is smart and lazy. So, too many of those and I end up with a completely sucked back (if not walking) slugbug under me. With doing a sort of schooling quarter piro and now starting to tighten down a little, I've been able to ask for the necessary collection, but not have him think that he is just down-gearing. I have to be creative with how I go about getting what I want without killing the forward. And sure, that is a submission issue, but he's a horse that is completely impervious to "getting after him" (insert I could beat him all day and he wouldn't care), so making exercises seem like fun is really the only super effective method I have. So for him, a little quarter piro is more "fun" than just repeatedly doing collection on the spot.

[galopp]

But that is not collecting, IF the horse stops. It is asking and allowing w/o that happening. The rider sits up more, stills the seat, horse starts to react, rider immediately (almost before it starts) exits. The almost onto the spot, is not to be sustained. It is not a submission issue, it is balance issue imho. The quarter pirouette is the same thing, collect/ask/allow forward immediately.

Yes, there is doing large travers, and decreasing it (often called a working priouette); but what often happens is the horse never learns to canter about the size of a dinner later., and then end up climbing with each stride and tend to pivot because the have the hind legs too far under (straight hind legs).

[HafDressage]

But that is not collecting, it the horse stops.

Well exactly. I don't want slowing instead of collecting, so repeating cantering on the spot too often is just not a workable piro introduction for us. I can usually do it once or maybe twice per ride and then subsequent trys will result in him shutting down rather than collecting. The quarter piros or big working piros help us get to it without him getting ahead of me and trying to shut down.

[galopp]

It starts with one step, not even onto the spot. If the horse cannot be gathered, how are they to canter onto the spot, even for a quarter pirouette. So, the question is rather why the horse shuts down imho. Certainly a horse should be able to do walk pirouettes (understand the aids), and figure 8s of si to counter si, and travers to renvers with balance before the rider ask for CP.

[khall]

Interesting conversation going on. I gave the HI on 20 m circle in canter a try, not too bad! Easier right than left, but that is not surprising his r canter is now better than l, used to be other way around. We can collect almost on the spot with energy and engagement. Interesting he gets higher off the ground with a longer suspension when asking for this collection. I do short bursts of this type of work because he is also an energy conservationist. So we do a bit and then get out do something else, don't drill. I have had to work hard to get this horse lighter off the aids so I don't work harder than he does. I used to spend time just reinforcing those light aids. Now not as much.

Question gallop, when you say figure of 8s of si to counter si and travers to renvers are you talking about in the trot I assume?

This pirouette work is new to me training wise, but I can feel his pirouette in the canter, was working on C-W-C the other day doing half loops, straighten, W, then C next lead and I could feel as I was turning the half loop in C the ability to sit and turn especially in the R lead.

[piedmontfields]

Question gallop, when you say figure of 8s of si to counter si and travers to renvers are you talking about in the trot I assume?

Oh---good question. i had assumed she meant at canter.

Fun discussion!

[galopp]

Imho the horse must be able to do those exercises si/c.si, and t to r in trot (primarily), and in canter (more difficult).

HI on a big circle must be fairly easy (but si is much more important (keeping the control of shoulders/straightness) than is mobilizing the quarters). Smaller circles with uprightness and ease, and absolutely straight and in position otherwise.

The tempo must be the same as the horse collects, but care must be taken that the horse is not climbing up in canter (and breaking the diagonal), which can easily happen if the hh are too sustained or the horse is too compressed (those things break the diagonal). We see so many photos of horses over bended (esp in the neck) in CP, then they climb and the diagonal is broken. The horse should be positioned (at the atlas-axis) but relatively straight. Otherwise they will over rotate, and the quarters will fall away from the dinner plate (cantering on the spot).

It's a good thing to ask a little, take a break. Good training idea.

[Ponichiwa]

It starts with one step, not even onto the spot. If the horse cannot be gathered, how are they to canter onto the spot, even for a quarter pirouette. So, the question is rather why the horse shuts down imho. Certainly a horse should be able to do walk pirouettes (understand the aids), and figure 8s of si to counter si, and travers to renvers with balance before the rider ask for CP.

I agree with all of this, and all that you've posted as far as prerequisites for pirouettes. However, it can really help to approach the movement from different exercises in order to get the lightbulb turned on for the horse and, sometimes, for the rider.

Some horses can't see the forward in the canter on the spot. Maybe it's because the rider is learning to train that movement for the first time. Maybe it's because the horse isn't naturally a sitter, and needs some coaching. Either way, providing a way to keep going is really helpful for some pairs. It can help connect the dots.

[galopp]

There are two issues in collecting: 1 the horse learning, and 2. (for sure) the rider learning the power of their posture/use of the seat (vs the hand per se). Imho the lack of ability to being able to collect (the biggest step into second level) is about the clarity of hh (of asking and allowing), developing amplitude by shortening the base of support (rather than the neck) while maintaining an upright posture which is still ifv. One cannot canter almostt onto the spot if those things don't exist. And that has to do with the rider being able to be more proud, the 'girls' pointing east and west, the posterior tilting of the pelvis for a step, and the allowing of self carriage. And understanding the use/effect of lateral work's contribution to collectability, posture, axial rotation, and straightness with shoulder in/renvers mobilizing/controlling the shoulders, and travers the quarters. mho

[Chisamba]

I wanted to say this earlier but canter on the spot is a lot more difficult than a pirouette, so it seems like putting the cart before rhe horse to use canter on the spot to prepare for or train pirouettes.

I can also say that I rode and trained pirouette on a number of horses without ever doing leg yield or counter shoulder in.

I see clinicians asking for counter bent leg yield, and counter shoulder in, but always the horse has lost its true canter rhythm. Of course now it is excused because they claim slow motion high definition cameras have proved that the pirouette does not maintain rhythm.

This may be true but to the naked eye it should still appear to maintain rhythm.

Show ring dressage, however, rewards a half rear and turn so you no longer need to train pirouette, simply teach your horse a turning rear . In case anyone is confused, by rear i mean the raising of both front legs off the ground.

By the way, i use haunches in on a spiralling circle. If i cannot straighten, i have no outside rein, and if i have no outside rein i better go back and find one.

[galopp]

Cantering on and collecting is done progressively. The horse has to take half halts. It is almost onto the spot, and abandoned before the horse dwells. The better the clarity/quality of collection the easier the turning will be. Same thing for walk pirouettes, which come first.

Isnt 'counter bent leg yield' really half pass w/o bend? Don't care fore that at all. But counter shoulder in is really counter canter with the shoulders more controlled, which contributes to straightness. If the horse loses its rhythm in CC then there likely the horse is against the hand/onto the forehand.

..... but to the naked eye it should still appear to maintain rhythm.

Absolutely.

Show ring dressage, however, rewards a half rear and turn so you no longer need to train pirouette, simply teach your horse a turning rear . In case anyone is confused, by rear i mean the raising of both front legs off the ground.

Agree with you, because the horses are too low, not collected.

By the way, i use haunches in on a spiralling circle. If i cannot straighten, i have no outside rein, and if i have no outside rein i better go back and find one.

It's the play between the aids, for sure the effect of the outside rein.

[HafDressage]

It starts with one step, not even onto the spot. If the horse cannot be gathered, how are they to canter onto the spot, even for a quarter pirouette. So, the question is rather why the horse shuts down imho. Certainly a horse should be able to do walk pirouettes (understand the aids), and figure 8s of si to counter si, and travers to renvers with balance before the rider ask for CP.

I agree with all of this, and all that you've posted as far as prerequisites for pirouettes. However, it can really help to approach the movement from different exercises in order to get the lightbulb turned on for the horse and, sometimes, for the rider.

Some horses can't see the forward in the canter on the spot. Maybe it's because the rider is learning to train that movement for the first time. Maybe it's because the horse isn't naturally a sitter, and needs some coaching. Either way, providing a way to keep going is really helpful for some pairs. It can help connect the dots.

Ponichiwa - YES & YES. My point exactly. For a smart + lazy horse, you have to be creative to keep interest. My horse understands collection and can do the required prereqs and he will appropriately collect the canter once or twice, but if I approach the movement over and over the same way, he will die out from under me bc collection is, of course, difficult and he is smart. Honestly, it would show a serious lack of insight and "realisticness" if I just continued to drill him on canter on the spot when there are alternative things that can help him develop the strength/exercise that he finds more fun/engaging.