Deneb:

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Flight
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Re: Deneb:

Postby Flight » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:26 am

Hey, she is really nice!! Her trot is lovely. You are doing a great job with her!

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:27 am

My self criticism is that I am sitting bit forward and my heel is a bit up, sadly I am still riding defensively. :(

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:08 am

So, again thanks to everyone for the comments, suggestions, and support, today's ride I focused on being more correct myself, sitting up, lengthening my leg, and then we started to work more on shoulder fore, and what I call a moving turn on the forehand , as described by Steinbrecht.

It pushed Deneb a little out if her comfort zone, but I was pleased with her efforts. I am scouting around for a clinician, might be time to challenge Kimba and Deneb to a training trip away from home.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Koolkat » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:35 am

My first impression of her was that she was just a tiny bit hurried/tight in the back, it resolved after you changed directions, her back opened a little more and the hind legs swung through more - I thought you stopped at exactly the right moment. Just a little stutter on the downward, no big deal. The lateral work will help her. Her mentality sounds a lot like my retired mare, a "sentinel" horse and a bit fragile. She is lovely, I hope she brings you much joy. (I never looked at you . . . :D except for seeing the half halts).

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Tuddy » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:22 pm

Chisamba wrote:So, again thanks to everyone for the comments, suggestions, and support, today's ride I focused on being more correct myself, sitting up, lengthening my leg, and then we started to work more on shoulder fore, and what I call a moving turn on the forehand , as described by Steinbrecht.

It pushed Deneb a little out if her comfort zone, but I was pleased with her efforts. I am scouting around for a clinician, might be time to challenge Kimba and Deneb to a training trip away from home.



Awesome! Hope you find a clinician you like. I am trying to find something for Tuddy too, but not for right away. Maybe this fall to get off the farm.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:46 am

I have decided that rather than trying for a clinic with Deneb, I am simply loading her up, with a stable easy going friend, and my son and i are going to ride at a friends indoor. no lesson, no spectators, except of course my friend, and a modest amount of challenge to see how she manages being ridden in a somewhat stressful situation.

my friends barn is not too far away, and she lives near a trail system so if it goes well we might consider a trail ride tool

If she is very good, i might then challenge her further and take a trail ride. i will do the same with Kimba but on a different day. kimba has already been to a show and did very well, except for bucking in the canter transition, so i feel that the trail ride on kimba is more likely.

I did an eight mile fifty fence hunter pace over the weekend, it was fun, but i took a clients horse, because they want to do the next one and wondered how her horse would be. next time i would like to take one of mine, so doing a bit of cross training and hitting the trails will be good for all of us.

i am really happy to say that the eight mile ride with lots of jumping did not have me sore the next day, so despite my obesity i am still able to enjoy some strenuous riding

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Re: Deneb:

Postby orono » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:50 am

That sounds like an excellent plan for Deneb. I did the same with a hot OTT I had, we would go and 'visit' stables, shows etc without the pressure of performance. Eventually she was able to 'work' at a new venue under pressure, but it took a few years.

Hopefully your outing goes well!

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Kathy Johnson » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:14 pm

She is nice! I'm riding a half saddlebred/half Arab, Orra who is also hot. I think your plan is right on and I would continue with the gymnasticizing, especially the hind end. I might also add some variable strength training, riding intermittently on harder surfaces and walking some hills and over poles.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:32 pm

Isnt Orra the one you rode in a parade? perhaps i am getting it wrong, there is a difference between hot and hot and anxious.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Mon May 02, 2016 7:04 pm

I suppose it is inevitable that we may take a step backward in our progress from time to time. I brought miss Deneb in to ride and had to change plans, because she had a bite mark on her back in the saddle area.

So i no saddle or surcingle, i decided to do what i have done countless times, a simple longe line to the halter. Sadly she was very tense and reactive. Often i can work out what it is that has her upset, but today I couldn't work it out.

What did she do? She trotted with tension, stiff back very knee snapping movement, she did not transition to walk when asked but stopped and tried to rush in to center. When skewed took stay out on the circle she tried to bolt off into a scrambling canter which seemed to increase her anxiety.

When I line I routinely move up and down the centerline of the arena so, but each time I moved, she broke gait, even though she is very familiar with this technique.

When she followed my voice commands through several transitions I called it quits.

I worked with her til there was a measure of calm and stopped.

Sigh

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 11:31 am

I have not posted on this thread in a while, because I have not had anything positive to post. Because of a bad bite in her saddle area given by a pasture mate, I have not been able to ride her. Because I did not want her to be out of work I have been lunging her. It has caused an epiphany. deneb is made very anxious by lunging. After 10 days of increased anxiety and return to near dementia, yes it would appear that I'm a little slow on the uptake. I finally realize that the act of lunging her does not relax her. I resumed and walking and-in-hand work. She is beginning to return to a more manageable filly.

She became very upset about my phone so we flooded her I took dozens of selfies and Mikhail take dozens of photos but we got one that looked really quite cute. Here it is
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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 11:35 am

Thinking back over the years I can remember several occasions with people had very hot horses and they would lunge them without successfully relaxing them. It just didn't seem to work. Do you think with some horses lunging can be counterproductive. For the case of this question I'm including round pen work

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Rosie B » Wed May 11, 2016 12:13 pm

Aww, what a nice pic of both of you. :)

Absolutely yes - I think longeing can be counter productive. I'm not terribly good at longeing (but am getting better), and when Bliss was younger if the weather was crazy or he was super excitable and acting like an ass, I would just get on him rather than longeing first. I knew if I longed him, he'd get super excited and I'd have to deal with all kinds of idjit behaviour, whereas if I just got on him, I could keep his mind on me and not have to deal with much in the way of misbehaviour.

I know that's due to my own lack of skills on the longe, but for us it was counter productive at that time.

These days I am better at longeing and can keep him more focused, so longeing is quite helpful.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Wed May 11, 2016 1:14 pm

I feel that lunging or round pen work done correctly should get the horse listening and more relaxed. Speaking from years of experience! My big horse Rip for a good long time I would not get on him without lunging, he has some powerful moves that are not conducive to staying on top of him so I would lunge to see where his brain would be. I actually work my horses with transitions both between and in the gaits, I use lots of changes of directions and incorporate some lateral work as well during lunging. I also occasionally use round pen work for my mare, if she is having a particular froggy day I will turn her loose in the round pen but asking for changes of direction and changes of gait to get her listening to me. Now as both are more mature and have more understanding I use much more in hand work to get what I need accomplished. Lunging and ground work done correctly should never be counterproductive.

I have also lunged spoiled or problem horses over the years and use the work to create a more willing and obedient horse. It is not always pretty what has to happen to convince the horse to work with you rather than against you but the end work should show a horse relaxed and listening and with you. One of the problems I have had to deal with is horses that have learned to pull away while lunging giving the handler the middle finger. Very difficult issue to correct and not pretty to do so. I use either a chain lunge line, the line over the head or my caveson with a solid metal nose piece to stop the horse from leaving. It is a dangerous problem that shows a horse with no work ethic and no respect for the handler or lunge line. Something I have never allowed any of my horses to learn, stop it before it becomes an issue.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 4:09 pm

I am a considered proficient at longing, and I agree with your concepts of what constitutes a good longe.

My Epiphany is that this differed not work with all horses. Deneb can and well go in any gait, and transition within the gait, she does not run through the aid, and will spiral in and out, in fact I probably spent too much time getting her obedient on the longe, however, when she is anxious, no matter how obedient, she is still anxious, and occasionally even more anxious after, no matter how long I longe her or how much I utilize transition.

Now if I longe her after I have ridden, I can have some excellent work.

I actually feel really stupid, because I was convinced that she was never going to be a good riding horse based on this, however once I got over my fear and just rode her, she got better and better, and now that I am longing her again, I see that I was too inflexible in my method.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Wed May 11, 2016 4:23 pm

Chisamba I bred and raised a mare very similar to your Denab (an Old) who was what I call the ultimate prey animal. She was very much about flight and if she could not flee she would fight. I never felt safe riding her and stopped even trying but working her on the ground, at liberty and on line was a blast. (I ended up rehoming her when she became aggressive to other horses in the pasture, ended up with a home who adores her) She was the one who turned me towards NH work and it really helped her become a horse that worked with you (at least on the ground!) than against you. Traditional lunging would not work for her, she needed some side trips to get her brain about her. She had to learn that commotion and movement unless directed intentionally at her were to be ignored, giving me her attention and trust to keep her safe and ok. There was much flapping of ropes, tarps, lines, myself around this mare until she could handle the commotion without getting emotional, once we got to that point (she was "hooked on") then the work was easy. Good liberty work to me is almost as much fun as good dressage riding, very much a connection between horse and handler and with Faith's (my Old) extra energy liberty work was so much fun.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 7:16 pm

I discussed Deneb on the other board so I foolishly assumed that everybody remembers all my stories about her. She is not really aggressive she is never offered to strike or kick at me but she has a very highly developed flight instinct and can become more anxious than any other horse that I've ever worked with. This may not seem a lot but consider that I have started from the beginning over a hundred horses under saddle. I know there are people who have ridden more horses than me this is not a boast this is just to give a background.

A very brief history of things deneb has done. When I first got her as a yearling and she was very skittish and so I brought her to the barn so that she could be haltered lead and handled daily. We had a round pen with 5 foot high walls. I pulled her into the round pen to work with her and simply began to ask her to move around me. She bolted straight into the 5-foot wall and flipped over it. I realized that Liberty work was unsafe at this time and worked her with a line attached. After three months I decided to return her home so that she could relax and grow up it was during this time that the barn burned and she was my sole survivor.

Since then do to various frightening stimuli she has flipped over the pasture fence then panicked because she was on the other side of the fence from her Companions and crashed through the fence again coming back. This because a truck went past on the road making flapping noises. None of her pasture companions even ran.

She has been around dogs all of her life but one day at the barn a dog ran past the open doorway. She bolted the entire length of the indoor and run at full speed into the far wall.

She has trailered regularly and loads easily but once when she was in the two horse trailer which has a window on the front she spooked when someone put a bale of hay on the truck she managed to turn around in the trailer and jumped over the back door so just to repeat she managed to turn around in the partitioned side of a two-horse trailer and jumped over the elevated back door.

When I say that fear makes her do things that injure herself I am not exaggerating.

She simply does not have room in her brain to learn when she is in a fearful state and running her in circles even with multiple obedient transitions. does not remove the fear whether it be in a round pen at Liberty or as I now realize it on the line. I have come to the conclusion that she is not the only horse like this. I am having to revise my stance on lunging because I have always believed that lunging and ground work can and should bring the horse to a state of safe relaxation before being mounted

I am learning a lot from this beautiful filly but one of the things that I am learning is to be more flexible in things that I always thought I knew. I guess what I am wondering is has anyone else had a horse that did not seem to improve with lunging or in hand work even work carefully and perhaps skillfully done
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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 7:23 pm

Khall, I was firmly in your court, I find in hand , liberty work, and longing very beneficial, in the norm. But thinking back now, I can think of another horse it did not work for, and now Deneb, and I am working if anyone else has come to the same conclusion with a horse.

I should mention that as she has progressed I returned to liberty work, unsuccessfully.

Once again I will say what I said to cb60, your strategy may well work for Deneb, but it is not working when I do it, and she is stuck with me.

Galop actuallyv have me one of the best pieces of advice, tack her up and have her stand with me the whole day while I teach lessons. That standing until boredom set in and relaxation occurred was my break through in training. Three days of standing for six to eight hours. At the end of the third day I got on and rode her and neither of us died, :)

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Re: Deneb:

Postby tlkidding » Wed May 11, 2016 8:11 pm

Chisamba wrote:Thinking back over the years I can remember several occasions with people had very hot horses and they would lunge them without successfully relaxing them. It just didn't seem to work. Do you think with some horses lunging can be counterproductive. For the case of this question I'm including round pen work


Yes and I almost posted this after your last post saying that the lunging wasn't working. My horse gets very stressed with in-hand work. We can lunge on a circle and do very simple in hand work but he quickly shows me that in hand work makes him very uncomfortable and anxious. I can double lunge/ground drive but too many changes of direction or trying any lateral things get him stressed too.

I had a lesson with a classical trainer to work on lunging and in-hand work in preparation for starting piaffe. Well the lunging went fine and we started the in-hand work on lines. He didn't do anything terrible, but he'd either shut down or try to barge out if we got too loud with the aids. She ended up having me get on after about 10 minutes of in-hand work and chased after us with a lunge whip - where we finally got the first half-steps. So now we work very simple in-hand work with clicker training and usually in the barn aisle. If I need some help on the ground with something like the piaffe, I'll ride and the trainer will use the lunge whip or a long driving whip.

Luckily I can still use traditional lunging to check the status of his brain if he's had time off (although currently we are rehabbing from an injury and doing straight lines only, so I just have to get on).

I would maybe go back to the tack-up and stand in the arena route if you aren't sure of Deneb's state of mind on a particular day.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Wed May 11, 2016 8:19 pm

Chisamba I hear you about fearful, I really do. While my mare never had the opportunity to jump fences or jump out of trailers, we did more fight because the flight was not allowed (in that she was on line when made to face her fears, not at liberty at that time). I got rearing, striking, kicking (she kicked herself so hard I thought she had broken a leg) very dramatic from my mare (she was 4 at the time). This was a horse that as a foal when we went in to get her she would try to crawl up the wall to get away, she had to go to GOV inspections at a month old so I had to do a good bit of handling forcing the issue to get her able to travel. Must have done something right she made premium foal! There was a long time of working her on line (but not lunging, true desensitizing type work to get her accepting life) before the line ever came off and worked liberty. She had to earn that right to work at liberty. It is a different way of working with the horse but boy does the work stick when done well. I had to get her thinking down to her feet, especially her rear feet to get her grounded. Very interesting work, grew me as a horseman for sure and not something I have had to do often to that extent because most of my horses are pretty much born accepting their life and are not extreme prey animals. Funny thing is that mare is a total sweet heart and loves people. What I did was similar to flooding technique used in people, not always pretty but had to be done for her to have any kind of life. The riding never really got there, I just had no interest in putting myself in the position of getting badly hurt when I had others that were much easier to deal with.

I can definitely understand the value of standing around with a worried tense horse. Did something similar with Faith when I hauled her to a lesson. Went to watch a bit of some others and had her stand about 5' away from me not moving. If she wiggled, moved forward she was corrected and put back in place until she stood quietly while I watched. Very good patience training.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 9:33 pm

Khall, I m curious as to how you would have " not let " your horse flip over her pasture fence? Or " not let " her turn when standing tied in a partitioned trailer.

I suppose I could defensively mention that she has never been disobedient enough to hit a wall, broken free, pulled away, stepped on me, bit, kicked ,struck when I was handling her. Yes we have hit the wall, and flipped over a fence under saddle. Obviously on different occasions.

There is a huge advantage to working with a foal. What did you ultimately do with your not ridden mare?
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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 9:33 pm

tlkidding wrote:
Chisamba wrote:Thinking back over the years I can remember several occasions with people had very hot horses and they would lunge them without successfully relaxing them. It just didn't seem to work. Do you think with some horses lunging can be counterproductive. For the case of this question I'm including round pen work


Yes and I almost posted this after your last post saying that the lunging wasn't working. My horse gets very stressed with in-hand work. We can lunge on a circle and do very simple in hand work but he quickly shows me that in hand work makes him very uncomfortable and anxious. I can double lunge/ground drive but too many changes of direction or trying any lateral things get him stressed too.

I had a lesson with a classical trainer to work on lunging and in-hand work in preparation for starting piaffe. Well the lunging went fine and we started the in-hand work on lines. He didn't do anything terrible, but he'd either shut down or try to barge out if we got too loud with the aids. She ended up having me get on after about 10 minutes of in-hand work and chased after us with a lunge whip - where we finally got the first half-steps. So now we work very simple in-hand work with clicker training and usually in the barn aisle. If I need some help on the ground with something like the piaffe, I'll ride and the trainer will use the lunge whip or a long driving whip.

Luckily I can still use traditional lunging to check the status of his brain if he's had time off (although currently we are rehabbing from an injury and doing straight lines only, so I just have to get on).

I would maybe go back to the tack-up and stand in the arena route if you aren't sure of Deneb's state of mind on a particular day.


Thank you.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Flight » Wed May 11, 2016 10:03 pm

I followed a horsemanship trainers program for my young horse who was very sensitive and inclined to run away at anything. He did run into my stable door and smashed it with his bloody great chest. The stuff he does teaches them to relax themselves after a scare. It worked for him - groundwork/lunge type work. However, Deneb is very 'special' and I think you are doing a great job with such a tricky horse. I doubt I'd be game to try! Nice photo too :)

Oh and I'm lunging my other horse to try and get him more forward!! I want it to get him less relaxed.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Wed May 11, 2016 10:19 pm

What has worked best for her is standing, hand walking and lowering the head when asked.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby orono » Wed May 11, 2016 10:21 pm

I have had a few horses who were much better to ride then to longe. I believe that obedient longing is a very important part of a horses education, but we don't all start with clean slates with our equines, and not all progress in the same linear fashion. I had a very hot horse who was dangerous to longe unless she was ridden first (fortunately i was young enough and brave enough at the time to do it). She was not spooky or mean, but had a strong GO button (OTT) and could become frantic on the longe. After a good workout the wheels in the brain slowed enough that she could longe safely, eventually in all 3 gaits with side reins. After about 2 years of owning her she could be longed without riding, but it was a process.

It sounds like Deneb was very upset about something else on the first day of longing with the halter (due to bite mark), and may have been difficult and overreactive under saddle as well. I am a big fan of 'standing around' with a tacked up horse, or doing quiet walk/halt work with them, rather than sending them out to burn off steam. Hopefully she heals quickly and you can resume your regular work with her soon.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Thu May 12, 2016 12:04 am

Chisamba, I don't know why I even bother to reply on your threads. I tend to put you on the defensive for some reason and I never mean to. There was nothing that happened in my mare's life to cause her to jump over a fence or out of a trailer. I did see her run through a tree when she got scared of a grey horse she had never seen before. She would literally shake like a leaf when I would work on loading her she was so scared of the horse trailer. Time and exposure helped tremendously with the horse trailer after the ground work I did. I did the work to try and get her to be a more self confident horse and not so scared of everything. I never continued with riding, the few times I tried she would just explode under me, I was not interested in riding that just like I would not be interested in riding Denab a horse that bolts in fear running into a wall and flipping over it. I ride a spooky horse now and his antics are at the edge of what I want to ride. Thankfully his training has come far enough that the spooks are much easier to deal with now.

I said above that I rehomed my mare when she became aggressive to other horses in the pasture. Up until that time I had every intention of keeping her until she died but when she kicked my favorite mare (a mare she was weaned with and grew up with) in the hock for no reason she had to go. She is a big 16.3 hh mare and I did not have any other horses that she would not have terrorized, very dominant in the field. She found a great home with a professional horseman who loves her. Not sure if they even got her going under saddle or not but there you go. I am just saying that riding that mare would never have been successful in any way at least for me, but with the ground work I did she became a more confident horse in general and working liberty with her was great fun. She taught me a good bit even without ever successfully riding her.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Thu May 12, 2016 3:56 pm

khall wrote:Chisamba, I don't know why I even bother to reply on your threads. I tend to put you on the defensive for some reason and I never mean to. There was nothing that happened in my mare's life to cause her to jump over a fence or out of a trailer. I did see her run through a tree when she got scared of a grey horse she had never seen before. She would literally shake like a leaf when I would work on loading her she was so scared of the horse trailer. Time and exposure helped tremendously with the horse trailer after the ground work I did. I did the work to try and get her to be a more self confident horse and not so scared of everything. I never continued with riding, the few times I tried she would just explode under me, I was not interested in riding that just like I would not be interested in riding Denab a horse that bolts in fear running into a wall and flipping over it. I ride a spooky horse now and his antics are at the edge of what I want to ride. Thankfully his training has come far enough that the spooks are much easier to deal with now.

I said above that I rehomed my mare when she became aggressive to other horses in the pasture. Up until that time I had every intention of keeping her until she died but when she kicked my favorite mare (a mare she was weaned with and grew up with) in the hock for no reason she had to go. She is a big 16.3 hh mare and I did not have any other horses that she would not have terrorized, very dominant in the field. She found a great home with a professional horseman who loves her. Not sure if they even got her going under saddle or not but there you go. I am just saying that riding that mare would never have been successful in any way at least for me, but with the ground work I did she became a more confident horse in general and working liberty with her was great fun. She taught me a good bit even without ever successfully riding her.


I think you are saying that if I could never ride her ,Deneb, and really persisted with the longe she would ultimately become good with it, if it were done often and well enough. I should keep that thought in my back pocket. Instead of lunging as a preparation for riding, since I do not want to increase her anxiety to ride, I could longe or liberty work to teach her that the anxiety is unnecessary when no riding is planned.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Sue B » Thu May 12, 2016 3:57 pm

Khall and Chisamba--It is very easy to become defensive when working with these "difficult" horses. They teach us so much about mental flexibility and patience but they can also be soooo humbling. My hyper-anxious guy, Lad, did all kinds of stupid stuff in his life and more than once caused me to question my sanity in riding him but he eventually became a joy. I learned to re-adjust my parameters for what constitued a "good" ride and eventually had him going 3rd level. I gave up showing him (too stressful for him) but, by the end, I could attend clinics with him and even progress! One thing he never conquered, however, was his anxiety over cavellettis--walk him through a line of cavelleti and he was a basket case the rest of the ride. Go figure. So sure, some horses never lunge without anxiety, some horses are not amenable to ground work, and some horses never accept cavelleties. They can learn to be obedient but that doesn't necessarily translate into anxiety-free acceptance; therein lies the art of dressage.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Thu May 12, 2016 4:06 pm

I do get defensive, I do read criticism where I feel I have failed, it's my weakness, and I am sorry for it.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Thu May 12, 2016 5:37 pm

No worries! It was never my intention to say that I could do better with Deneb than Chisamba. I applaud Chisamba's willingness to stick it out with her and she is a nice mare going under saddle. I have just not found in my long horse life at this point (got my first horse at 14, started my first horse at 18, will be 49 this year and have bred, raised my own and worked with other peoples over the years) a horse that was not made better with ground work that I have worked with personally. Was it always traditional lunging or even liberty? No, my Old mare Faith led me to NH work and I am glad I went down that road. It stretched me as a horseman and taught me a good bit about pressure and release. I thankfully had a masterful horseman to work with at that time. Faith was a difficult horse much like Deneb, but different in that riding scared her as much as the ground work did initially. Even with all the prep work I did with Faith, the riding never was safe enough for me to continue. I should have made a riding dummy like some I know do and let her get used to having a "person" on her back that would not leave (i.e. get thrown off!) during her antics. To be honest I gave up because I had others that were way easier and more fun to deal with. She was going to sit here on my farm until the day she was put into the ground until she got dangerous to the other horses. I don't begrudge my time with Faith, she taught me a good bit about ground work, desensitizing and liberty work, but she also taught me that some horses are not riding material for me. Hated it because she was a well bred mare, but there you go.

I do think we learn some of the best lessons from our more difficult horses, whether we want to learn them or not! The horse I ride now the big chestnut has been a huge challenge, I once had someone tell me I had big cahones (sp) to ride him. His antics on the lunge were legendary! He is jumping lines and has a lot of leap to him, not so much a bucker or a runner and not a rearer, but explode straight up into the air leaps. He is also a spook and will do the spook 180 thing, hard to stay on that. Lunging helped him tremendously, giving him a place to kick up without me being on him. I rarely lunge him now and for the most part he is safe to ride with the training he has on him making it much easier to deal with him now. I rarely have a bad ride on him but that was a long time coming! He taught me patience and persistence and to keep my emotions out of it. Stay firm but fair. I called him sh*thead for many years! I at one point considered selling him but decided that I just needed to put on my big girl panties and get it done. I am glad I stuck with it considering what I have learned from him.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby piedmontfields » Thu May 12, 2016 7:40 pm

Just jumping in to say thank you all for sharing stories and perspectives on the challenging horses in your lives. There is a lot of valuable information and insight in these exchanges.

And Deneb, that is a great photo of you with your person!

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Thu May 12, 2016 10:44 pm

I agree piedmont that is a great picture of Deneb and chisamba! I love Deneb's luxurious forelock, very pretty.

I value chisamba's insights into training, working with horses. There is a large well of knowledge there and I am always looking to learn. We don't always agree whole heartedly but that is ok, both I know are for the horse and that is what is most important IMO.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Thu May 12, 2016 10:50 pm

Thank you . it may have been much more ego boosting to do a training thread about Kimba, lol

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Fri May 13, 2016 10:47 pm

In a very cowardly way I have done nothing with Deneb. They are replacing the roof, removing shingles, replacing ply, using nail machine guns. I am actually just thrilled that she had not left the property.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Sat May 14, 2016 4:50 am

I don't call that cowardly I call that being sensible!

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Josette » Sat May 14, 2016 10:27 am

khall wrote:I don't call that cowardly I call that being sensible!


Totally agree. Its smarter and safer to use those times and situations that will have a positive outcome. Avoid those situations which may cause a major setback IMO. Chimsamba - you know Deneb best by now and it's obvious you have made progress with her.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby kande50 » Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

Chisamba wrote:In a very cowardly way I have done nothing with Deneb. They are replacing the roof, removing shingles, replacing ply, using nail machine guns. I am actually just thrilled that she had not left the property.


She's getting exposed and learning that she can survive things that seem threatening, so progress is likely being made.

I do as much habituating as I can by just leaving my horses to explore scary stuff on their own, which I prefer because it avoids associating more aversives (pressure from the halter, chain, or bit) with the bugaboos. I don't know how important it is to avoid associating pressure/pain with other fearful stimuli, but it also saves a lot of time and is a lot easier to bring the scary stuff to them, or put them near the scary stuff and let them habituate on their own.

In fact, the radio is blaring down in the barn as we speak, and has been for 3 days now, because apparently, music during quadrille is a very serious issue for some horses. :roll:

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Sat May 14, 2016 12:12 pm

kande50 wrote:
Chisamba wrote:In a very cowardly way I have done nothing with Deneb. They are replacing the roof, removing shingles, replacing ply, using nail machine guns. I am actually just thrilled that she had not left the property.


She's getting exposed and learning that she can survive things that seem threatening, so progress is likely being made.

I do as much habituating as I can by just leaving my horses to explore scary stuff on their own, which I prefer because it avoids associating more aversives (pressure from the halter, chain, or bit) with the bugaboos. I don't know how important it is to avoid associating pressure/pain with other fearful stimuli, but it also saves a lot of time and is a lot easier to bring the scary stuff to them, or put them near the scary stuff and let them habituate on their own.

In fact, the radio is blaring down in the barn as we speak, and has been for 3 days now, because apparently, music during quadrille is a very serious issue for some horses. :roll:


Well, I said it offhand but I am pleased. with all the different noises and people and such, it's actually quite useful that it has continued for three days now, that is plenty of time for habituation, and I am very happy that she made no attempt to go over the gate or through the fence.

Kande it is interesting to consider if the pressure of restraint can cause a horse too associate then with aversives. I have seen the negatives of horses " sacked out " unsuccessfully. They did not seem to be upset about the halter, just remain afraid of the saddle pad. ( or whatever they were flooded with)

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Tue May 17, 2016 7:46 pm

Today was one of those days when something happens that you're afraid might happen when you get on a horse that is fearful.

I am reluctant to talk about it, because it does not really reflect well on my ability as a trainer

It was the first ride back after being off with the bite and the roofing. My son was leading his horse, and I was cantering a circle. I tiny rock was thrown up as I circled, the arena is sand, so very few pebbles, so was freak incident. It hit the mirror which exploded.

Deneb bolted and my son's horse got away from him and ran, dragging his lead rope. My options at that time seemed pretty limited, so I took the opportunity to test cb06 theory that you go forward til they sweat and they lose their fear.

She would begin to relax, then the loose horse would come barreling into her , or she would accelerate because we were next to the broken mirror. I managed to bring her to a trot, and she was really ready to listen, and the loose horse would barrel into her again. ( he was being really stupid) . finally Deneb kicked him hard, my son said a well timed whoa, and the loose horse was removed from the situation. I am not exaggerating when I say it took fifteen minutes before this degree of sanity was reached. It did not take long for her to settle after. She was tired dripping sweat, panting and trying to be obedient and we're we're able to get five minutes of good obedient work without any more spook.

After walking her cool for fifteen more minutes, I untacked and hosed he. I was simple grazing her, and she saw something minor, and freaked out above and beyond anything in a long while . set back on the lead rope, snorted, shook, got her head way up. I did my lower the head, stand circle focus on me in hand work, she did settle.

My feeling being that the situation, the fear, the loose horse, and working forward because i was unable to do my usual walk halt method of relaxing her was ultimately disastrous to her sense of well being and trust.

On the positive, she never hit a wall, never tried to get rid of me, did not injured herself, did not injure me, and I learned took trust myself more.

Tomorrow is another day.

Andb thank God we did not pick up glass in either of the horses hooves.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby cb06 » Tue May 17, 2016 8:36 pm

I don't think ANY horse would handle being repeatedly run into by a loose horse and having a mirror explode ..this with a young, green horse that had not been worked for awhile. Oy Vey!

The fact that she was dripping and panting is NOT a goal, I never said work would make them lose their fear, I said it MAY help with FOCUS (ie. the way some people use exercise to relieve stress)....the fact that she DID focus with the work IS surprising and positive given the above extreme circumstances.

I don't think you should read too much into the fact that she was keyed-up afterwards...that is a LOT of stimuli to absorb for ANY horse, especially a young, green, horse coming from time-off....I would be thrilled with that bit of focus under saddle you did get given the circumstances, ignore the 'over reaction' afterwards, and move forward with consistent work.

eta, I would also not rule out a little bit of tired, muscle cramping, very mild tying-up type of thing after that type of exertion...which could cause a little out-of-the-blue 'freak-out'.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby piedmontfields » Tue May 17, 2016 9:31 pm

Chisamba, glad all are basically okay. Frankly, I think Deneb did pretty well in the situation and so did you! My "easy" mare would not have been happy in that situation at all. Your son's horse was more of an idiot. Deneb at least kept listening (mostly) in that unfair to her situation.

cb06 is right about possible post-exertion physical reactions feeding her a bit. But really, I think this is a day you can say that Deneb showed you some good stuff.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Ryeissa » Tue May 17, 2016 9:39 pm

OMG, my horse would not have done well either. that is very scary!

re: Longing:

My horse didn't really like longing for awhile, he liked the "hug" of the leading and groundwork where I stood closer by him. More interaction and security.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Moutaineer » Tue May 17, 2016 10:03 pm

Oh, crap, I'd have been dead. Well done surviving the whole incident.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Tue May 17, 2016 10:26 pm

cb06 wrote:I don't think ANY horse would handle being repeatedly run into by a loose horse and having a mirror explode ..this with a young, green horse that had not been worked for awhile. Oy Vey!

The fact that she was dripping and panting is NOT a goal, I never said work would make them lose their fear, I said it MAY help with FOCUS (ie. the way some people use exercise to relieve stress)....the fact that she DID focus with the work IS surprising and positive given the above extreme circumstances.

I don't think you should read too much into the fact that she was keyed-up afterwards...that is a LOT of stimuli to absorb for ANY horse, especially a young, green, horse coming from time-off....I would be thrilled with that bit of focus under saddle you did get given the circumstances, ignore the 'over reaction' afterwards, and move forward with consistent work.

eta, I would also not rule out a little bit of tired, muscle cramping, very mild tying-up type of thing after that type of exertion...which could cause a little out-of-the-blue 'freak-out'.

No I understand you would never have recommended this as a goal, ie the b degree of bstressc and tired, but your comments came to mind as I was careening around, and I thought, I hope cb06, is right and there is a positive outcome at the end of this.

In fact i told my son they would eventually stop because they would not run themselves to death. And I did not try to pull her face off or spin her because i thought maybe she was safer moving because of the huge, 17 hand draft cross running loose scaring himself , at the trailing rope and literally aiming for us , I guess his herd instinct.

So I'm sure I could have stopped her sooner with a bit more effort but chose to let her keep moving til Faramir calmed.

I just felt sorry for her because she was carrying me, and he was not, and she was ready to listen, and he would set her off again.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Chisamba » Tue May 17, 2016 10:55 pm

Ran an evening check. Deneb is, thus far, not stiff or colicky, and seems relaxed.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby khall » Tue May 17, 2016 11:37 pm

Ugh I hate it when things to to hell in a hand basket! Glad you both came out of the episode ok, so sorry it happened.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Hayburner » Wed May 18, 2016 12:50 am

Omg! My mare would have had a major meltdown and God only knows what else could have happened!

Good for you to think quickly and apply the forward aids and staying calm throught this episode. I would have done the opposite, pulled back and want to bail off. I am a timid, defensive rider.

I have to ask, how long will you stick with trying to break her fears into smaller pieces? She sounds like she is getting better, but for me, I would have given up by now.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby orono » Wed May 18, 2016 12:54 am

Moutaineer wrote:Oh, crap, I'd have been dead. Well done surviving the whole incident.


Agree!!

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Re: Deneb:

Postby demi » Wed May 18, 2016 1:02 am

I can imagine the scene and it makes me shudder. I'm glad you didn't get hurt Chisamba. I think you handled it extremely well. I'm glad the mare is okay, too.

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Re: Deneb:

Postby Flight » Wed May 18, 2016 8:37 am

Wowsers!!!! Yes, you did a great job in that situation!!!


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